Japanese Trials Gas-Operated Pedersen Rifle
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 04. 2016
- / forgottenweapons
The Japanese semiauto rifle trials of the early 1930s had a total of four entrants - Kijiro Nambu and his company, Tokyo Gas & Electric, the Tokyo Army Arsenal, and Nippon Special Steel. This rifle is one of the third iteration of the design from Nippon Special Steel. It is a design based originally on the Pedersen, but with substantial changes. It is a toggle-locked and gas-operated action with a gas piston that moves forward upon firing. It feeds from a ten-round detachable box magazine, which is unfortunately missing on this example.
In total, 13 of these rifles were made for trials, with 4 of them actually being tested (and firing over 100,000 round between them without any extraction problems, apparently). This rifle did have some accuracy problems, though, which would be fixed by its designer for the fourth and final trials, at which point it and the Tokyo Army Arsenal rifle were determined to be of equal quality - and then the whole program was dropped as the Marco Polo Bridge incident caused the Sino-Japanese War to quickly intensify.
top tip from forgotten weapons: don't get in a gunfight in a cement factory.
first?
firydeth2 good to know
I work in a cement factory. Good to know this is not the gun for me. 😂
@@WinstonKillDeath q
@@greggaldridge I hink it would be OK as long as the cement isn't wet.
One of the reasons I love this channel is the pure amazement factor of "here is this amazing gun...BUT this happened."
I spit out my coffee at "wet cement over the rifle while firing"
Ah yes the constant battlefield threat of drunk construction workers wandering around
I was just like why what a random test were they planning on conflicts in areas of wet cement i guess if a towns totally gone from high exsplosive and it rains wet cement dust could end up in the rifle if dropped only reason i can think of tbh
I poured some wet concrete on a few Japanese while they were firing as well. They stopped shooting alright.... seemed pretty upset i interrupted their match tho.
David ar-15/m-16/m4 are all very well sealed and blow a substantial amount of gas out the port when ejecting, so material ingress is very unlikely to occur
Well it does happen fairly often on InRangeTV...
@@rampant_reptile1125 That was corny, off yourself
When I started the video, literally the first thing I thought was "damn, that's a one gorgeous looking gun" and then the first thing you say about the gun is that it's "the least good looking".
+Matti Seppänen I Think Ian got it right, it looks like somthing drawn by a Child.
yeah that happened to me a couple of times with Ian. beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder
I'm the same. it has a weird modern blockiness but a 1930's aesthetic at the same time, like something out of a movie or video game. Pretty cool, imo.
same
+Matti Seppänen while it does look steam punk to all hell....its also got a bunch of shit just sticking out/hanging off the gun.
this next to an m1 garand....which one would you make fox hole love to?
'Least good-looking'?
...I guess I disagree because I like over-engineered mechanisms that actually work.
It's has a rustic, blocky experimental charm.
I love how the front shrowd/stock looks
+PossumTally Looks a bit like MAS-49, but sleeker. And toggle-locked.
+Václav Fejt yeah I noticed that too even the magazine's are similar if you can find an image of one with the mag. the one in the video is missing its magazine
@@rhodesianwojak2095 I don't know more about that rifle than is said in the video.
Pretty amazing that this sold for less than $9,000, when the Japanese "Garand" that you reviewed sold for over $63,000. And there were fewer of these made too! :P
Because "rare" adds more value than "obscure".
There are a lot more Garand collectors than obscure Japanese rifle collectors.
also, from a collecting standpoint, this weapon is incomplete.
Josh Wilder and non matching.
@@obviousgreyman tfw there were only 20, that thing should have gone for 20k
GLORIOUS NIPPON STEEL, FOLDED 1000 TIMES
3 Years too late but Japanese steel is absolute shit, it's folded multiple times to strengthen what little iron the Japanese were able to find. I might be wooshing here, and a joke might be going over my head, but if not then I'd have to say that Japanese steel is nowhere near glorious.
The folding on Japanese swords is indeed innovative, and a great loophole, but the use of clay to strengthen steel and the diverse amounts of blade harness were all results of sandy pig-iron that didn't quite make the cut for forging. Japanese weaponry is very effective, rifles and swords are beautifully and gloriously made, but at the end of the day, their steel is ass
@@tl8211 Shit thanks! Sorry I wooshed a bit there
Hey, I recognize that face!
1 like 4 u
@@karnukabiyu2909 [jazz music stops]
You do?
the kanji (if I saw it correctly)on the gas-block reads "high(大), medium(中), low(小)" from top to bottom.
+MasterJawata That would make sense - thanks!
+MasterJawata I'm Japanese and You correct. large(大 DAI), medium(中 CHUU), small(小 SHOU)
+Inesophet
Really is cool when a firearm has such an adjustable gas system. The SVT40's gas system has something like 6 different settings, but it requires a tool to adjust, I'm as to say.
+NormanMatchem 5 actually
Jeffrey Reardon
Close enough, didn't bother to take mine out to check.
Ian just can't stop finding the weirdest guns to look at. ...Just when you think you've seen everything.
Eric Brown and that’s why we love him lol
>Pouring wet cement onto a rifle while it is firing as a means of testing
Welp, time to start pouring wet cement onto everything at the SHOT show :D
+Dragon Butt (ThatsNoMoon) AK system would probably be the only system that would pass the test.
2damaxmr2 Nah. The AK would probably break its shepard crook pin before the cement even touches the gun :P
+2damaxmr2 Almost every gun that has mud poured directly into its internals, let alone wet cement WILL cease to function as intended. The AK is no exception.
DattMuffinMan
There is however alot of room in that AK, both for cement to fit and for it to drain back out of xD
Infact I think that the AK's loose tolerances makes it an worse weapon since mud can seep in through the bolt/reciever. Perhaps their are better custom built versions with tighter tolerances but if we are talking about the general AKM you'll find out on the field, most of the time its crap compared to other options one could think of.
It might look clunky looking, but this design is beautiful.
troubledturtle2332 hah, that's true!
+troubledturtle2332 agreed
Japanese steel is always beautiful!
I'm thoroughly surprised by how good this rifle is. Good thing they never adopted it!
+patrick crosley It would have been a nightmare to deal with if 80-90% of the JIA had this.
The Arisaka is more cool to charge
But it would have been bad had they had guns like the garand that could fire off rapidly (yes they had machine guns don’t give me that
Would have been living without the shadow of Communist China like we do today if Japan had this. And If America didn't interfere with a war they said they wouldn't in the first place.
Accuracy and reliability was more important than rate of fire, that's why bolt actions were used till the end of the war. Even if all japanese infantry had Garands, that wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war.
I think the riffle looks awesome. Reminds me a bit of the French MAS-36.
The three characters on the gas regulator are 大, 中, and 小, which mean "large," "middle," and "small," respectively. I don't think any of those three cuts off the gas entirely.
thank you
So like on lighter
When the army enters the trials whit their own semi rifle, everyone be like :NANI?!
I absolutely love this Pedersen style action. It looks so bizarre that it's cool. I wish some version of it had been adopted so I could have a chance at actually affording one.
The designer seemed to really know what he was doing when he designed this one. I love the way that it looks, and the action is very unique.
So I'm just getting into the firearm scene (finally got disposable income, yay!) and I've spent the last year-ish getting to know my SKS inside and out. Seeing this rifle apart really blew my mind with it's elegance. Time to track down a Type 38 to scratch my itch for imperial japanese engineering.
The sks is an underrated weapon. It's ugly, simple, cheap, and tough. I have three, one I've never shot. The two I have shot I would trust my life to
Luger meets MAS 36:
I love the look!
Lol yeah
Exactly what i tought too
Listening to Gen. Nanbu's trials and tribulations earlier, I also figured that the Imperial Japanese Army was going into World War II with "drawn swords" and "single shot rifles" in hand. Imagine what "The Pacific War" would have been like if British Commonwealth (and American troops in the Philippines) came up against a "Japanese gas-operated, 10 round, self-loading rifle." The 1903 Springfield-equipped-U.S. Marines might have ended up on the losing end during the Guadalcanal landings. But the IJA brass never "saw the light" on the ground, even with "five-shot rifles."
Sounds expensive and would probably wouldn’t have resulted in many rifles, considering it’s predicted production cost was roughly 2x that of an Arisaka
@@chnghemeng2845 if you had just two of three of these in a squad of ten men it would have magnified their force projection. A ten man squad with a machine gunner, two semi auto rifles and 7 rifleman would have been more effective than what they had done.
@@harryjoe860 I mean a type 89 grenade projector would also do the same no? But yes I understand your point.
@@chnghemeng2845 its all speculation, Japan made a lot of bad choices, not adopting this rifle in limited quantities was only one of hundreds.
The irony of the rifle with a magazine lock missing it’s magazine is incredible haha.
I don't know how about others, but this rifle isn't ugly to me at all. And the story behind it is one of the more interesting as well I think. Anyway, I think that the design gives away it's functionality and ruggedness, so I'm sure that many shooters would call it a beauty not the ugly one. I would say "shame it wasn't adopted" but perhaps it was for the better, looking from our modern perspective.
+Norbert Buszka (Hussar) I agree!
Least good looking? This gun looks badass.
Belongs in a video game
Glorious nippon steel!
I'm so happy you had the chance to put your hands on this rifle, it's probably my fauvorite vintage semi-auto rifle.
-I actually made a version of it out of legos a couple days ago and now you posted this video, it's amazing
Jesus, are children watching these videos?
+Carolus Rex Heh...sorry, but I was just happy to see a weapon that I really like been on a video on this amazing channel.
-The complete name of this rifle is "Shisei Type-Hey Manual" if I'm not wrong.
+BurnThePope0514 I am a a 35 year old Veteran, spent ten years in the army, had two tours of duty and you know what, i still play with Legos.
+BurnThePope0514 I don't really see anything that inappropriate if a kid were to watch these. Ian's not encouraging any violent behavior.
And in the event such gross negligence occurs that a child gets their hands on a gun, they will at least know which end is dangerous and what part not to touch to prevent getting their legs blown off.
Uhm well, I'm 15 and I like firearms and I just play with legos in my spare time, that's it.
You seem to always do a great job in presenting information on weapons I didn't know existed. Looking forward to more.
I've always loved the pederson action, I get why it wasn't widely popular but there's so much satisfaction in the way it sounds and looks when it's being worked by hand. It looks like it would feel so viscerally satisfying and mechanical. Like operating a car with a manual transmission.
It's awesome that we get to see systems that are usually locked up, hidden, in private hands and/or just forgotten - as the channel name says, of course. Thanks for showing us these precious guns and their very interesting systems. But that's only what got me interested in this channel in the first place: I stayed and subscribed because of the tons of interesting information that comes with it. Thank you.
Love this design and history. Thank you Ian.
As if the Japanese army didn't do enough ludicrous things in Manchuria.
jon bush wow. Comment of the day, probably week
@Heyward Shepherd it was Japanese territory at the time
@@ackshually404 username checks out
Did more research, this gun later became the Type Hei LMG and the Type Hei rifle but a VERY LIMITED number were built for service, but it was used in the war afterall.
AFTER the national army one was abandoned, so this weapon did see another day, in two other variants infact.
That was awesome. I find early mechanical designs so interesting. Thanks.
It took only 16,497 machining operations to produce these rifles.
Man this rifle is just plain cool.
I think it looks pretty cool :P
+Riley Leppington A little bit Steam Punk.
I learn something new with every video. I'd never even heard of The Marco Polo Bridge Incident. Thank for teaching me something new once again Ian. :)
I admire him immensely, to have survived the war against overwhelming air American superiority alone is an astounding achievement.
Aside from the .276 Garand prototype, this is probably the most interesting rifle you have profiled, in terms of its mechanical design and execution. THAT is the one I would have bought at the auction, and of course, it was one of the cheaper ones, too...
The markings near the gas regulator lever says in Kanji: Large- Medium- Small. You sure the middle position is gas cut off?
+Simon P Nope, the markings are correct. I couldn't read them, and was speculating.
beautiful rifle
ya know,i don't know if anybody ever told you this,but you sir.are a damn fine story teller.thanx
Kijiro Nambu toggle lockuru actsheenu!
+Pepsimintsteak I rack disciprine!
+The Black Smegma
YOU RACK DISCIPRINE!
you are of shame famiry, is "toggoru"
Taguru raku akushin!
Such a good story. Thanks Ian.
I kind of like that mag drop safety. Can't tell you how many times I've accidentally dropped a magazine from an AR because that's where my trigger finger naturally goes on EVERY pistol. That one extra little movement to reload wouldn't bother me at all. It's obvious that a lot of thought went into this rifle. While it's a bit blocky on the outside, I think the internal design and machining is sexy. Definitely world's away from many trials guns that barely worked and couldn't interchange parts because they look like they were cobbled together at midnight before the test began.
Those deer are looking at the rifle with dubious regard.
I never heard of this Japanese rifle before, great video!
I'll bet that if all the numbers matched that rifle's opening bid would be a quite a bit more. Very interesting piece, Ian.
this is amazing! thank you for sharing this with us.
I really like the look of it and how it works
I quite like the look of this rifle. It has a certain no-frills elegance to it, perhaps 'industrial' is a better way to phrase it.
I really like the way it looks
I don't know much about Japanese small arms, but a lot of the little details of this gun seem well thought out. I like the captive pins for the major parts, something that even much later military guns didn't bother with.
Impressive and quite frankly I think it is a handsome rifle with amazing engineering!
This is a gorgeous mechanical device. Look at all the machining! Amazing weapon. I wonder what it would have looked like in full production.
Fascinating video thank you.
Thank you for the history lesson.
The AK: finally! A worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary!
I wish they made reproductions of these, very cool.
but probably would never catch on the commercial market.
Excellent video, cheers
Really cool Japanese rifles in this lot really appreciate learning about these.
"No surprise: It stopped working." Ian's delivery is often worth the price of admission all by itself. The research is just icing. :)
Sigh, I do love toggle actions....
Very nice and informative video as always Ian.:D
I think it's a beauty !! with typical japanese style details. Thanks
It might be just me but I love the way it looks
For the gas port setting, the engraving says 'big (大)' 'mid (中)' and 'small(小)'
Makes one wonder just how many rifles Japan could have made with all the steel that went into just one Yamato or Musashi
That big square back on it reminds me of the Browning A5.
Whaaaaat Ian that gun looks really cool! It's not bad looking at all. It's super dieselpunk.
I think it looks awesome
Its crazy how similar the setup is to a mas 49.
thanks foe the upload
Coincidentally, I'm reading Hatcher's "Book of the Garand" right now, which discusses the competition between Pedersen and Garand in the 1920s and '30s.
An interesting read... .
Looks like a very nice rifle
This is a really neat gun!
This rifle's got an incredible history.
Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I for one love the looks of this rifle
Interesting video! Thank you very much.
This thing is as unique and inventive as it is a work of mechanical art. It's a shame we'll never have a novel piece like that for the general market
I actually think this rifle looks rather nice. Something about the vents and slight blockyness and the way the forward part of the stock meets up with the receiver.
Jesus, Ian, is there anythink you don't know. I really enjoj your videos, there is much to learn.
+sjoormen1 Oh, there is a ton I don't know...
Impressive mechanics!
Wet cement and a fire-arm in the same context -- you just have to think Mafia.
Bad for the Japanese that this rifle wasn't produced, good for us that it wasn't. One of the big things that gave us a leading edge against both Germany and Japan is that we had automatic self loading rifles where as Japan and Germany for the most part did not.
Absolutely super cool!
Really enjoyed this vid!!!!
Thanks -- good history.
thats actually a really cool looking gun
Thank you for another informative video. Curious why the Japanese did not revisit the design during the Type 4 Japanese Garand trials.
I love this gun. I hope to own one someday.
I actually really like the look of the thing
He keeps saying it's an ugly rifle, buuuuut it's not, REALLY great machine work, and beauty in function. It's really nice.
It seems like a toggle action would interfere with staying on target.
I kind of like how it looks
I think it actually looks pretty cool.
Nice video !
Damn I was really hoping that this was gonna be the one, I’m so tired of hunting around for a rifle that can take a cement shower and run
This gun is so cool! Japanese engineers are so good at details, very well thought and put together, totally like it.
"Japanese engineers are so good at details" bruh, have you seen the type 14 nambu pistol, it looks like its made out of scrap metal and works about as well, you can even fire the damn thing without touching the trigger
well,I'm pretty sure you were talking about type 94,not type 14.
Type 94 is like STEN of the pistol,really not focusing on manufacture quality,and probably not combat effective,but it do all the jobs IJA want it to do.
@@yangcheng-jyun8542 Type 14 was just as dangerous. TFB TV showed that
@@humansvd3269 That video has some problems in it. The AD probably was caused by hangfire.
Man I wish we could check out the Type 64. I wonder if there's some way we could import it as a blank firing or prop gun and reverse engineer it into a civilian version. That rifle is so dope.
Such a perfect gun