White Toggle-Locked .30-06 Prototype Rifle
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- čas přidán 12. 11. 2015
- / forgottenweapons
This toggle-locking rifle chambered for the .30-06 cartridge is the second of two rifles submitted by White for the 1930 US military trials. It was not actually tested by the US, but White did take it to the UK where it was tested in the early 1930s. British officials liked that it was a positively locked action (unlike Pedersen's toggle rifle, which was delayed blowback), but found it too fragile for combat use.
What impressed me about this rifle was how quiet it was as Ian was showing us the action. That's a gorgeous action!
Matt Morrisson Yeah, but I prefer the sounds of the Pederson action. It sounds so satisfying.
Butter smooth
Hey Ian. You're such a fucking awesome dude. Thank you for bringing us these weapons and tools. Your knowledge is excellent, your demeanor is kind friendly and gentle, your speaking is clear, and just like the BEST guys on CZcams you make these beautiful tools so much more interesting and educational every video that I watch. Thank you my friend. I own about 7 guns myself, but you have broadened my knowledge so much that even my mom now knows things about guns that she never would have if I hadn't seen your channel almost 2, 3, or 4 years ago. I just subscribed about 5 months ago when I realized how much I like you as a person and that you deliver this information better than anyone out there. If I were a man with much money I would be your patron and make sure that there was not a weapon on this planet that we couldn't watch you discuss, touch, and learn about! Again, thank you Ian.
Cory
+Cory Mcclure Thanks!
Toggle lock actions are fascinating. U can see how intricate they are. They represent a bygone era- no one will do that much machining anymore, even wirh CNC. And pretty much all trials rifles are fascinating. Great video as always. Thank you
It’s not so much “no one wants to do that much machining” as it is “no one wants to pay for this much machining, which has proven to be unnecessary in firearms.” More parts = more places for things to go wrong, and when you’re relying on a firearm to save your life, one thing going wrong could mean the difference between life and death. Toggle locks are simply unnecessary when rotating bolts, tilting bolts, slides and the like can do the same thing with fewer parts and looser tolerances, which translates to more money saved.
@@Brawler_1337 True. Good points
That rifle does look like it's about to give birth. Apart from that, it's an attractive piece, especially the way the metal seems so well machined.
Awesome video to watch before I head out for a 3 day trip. Thumbs up from me
+USAirsoft no, because you asked for thumbs
Oops sorry, I guess I did a bit too much cocaine and saw it how I wanted to
The way you frame the "hard spots", the springs and engineered moving parts is just great man!
Has been like a sign for your channel for some years now.
Camerawork no other gun channel can brag about!
Some Awesome shit man, for sure! :)
Thumbs up for this sucker! ;)
Great intruiging rifle design. MORE of this, Ian, thanks to you i'm totally ADDICTED.
"It can't shoot vertically" I didn't know you wasted an anti aircraft gun.
Again a beautifully made mechanical masterpiece of it's era but hopelessly overcomplicated and fragile for it's intended use. Noticed the "lid" of the small edged rail on the side of the reciever, where the locking of the charging handle grabs for like 1mm on the already scalloped surface.. Wouldn't take long before that tiny edge would be entirely smooth.. And looking down into the remarkably milled and finished and measured action, only a tiny chunk of sandy mud or a teaspoon of gravel would instantly make the action unable to lock.. And that thin sheet metal piece with the stock and the barrel.. In the FDF back in the 90's some guys liked to chamber a round with their Rk-62's by slamming the steel tube butt against a tree trunk etc.. :D Thanks for the video, keep up the good work!
I really want a toggle lock rifle...someone needs to make a modern version
Don't know if it was addressed, but Garand went to an eight round en-bloc clip to ensure that the clips could be used in the standard issue cartridge belt. Cheers, Bruce.
He literally said that like a minute in.
No, what he said was that Garand used an eight round clip to keep the rifle handier and lighter. He didn't get into the logistics aspect of having to change literally millions of sets of web gear by going to a ten round clip at a time when the Country was going through a major economic upheaval. Cheers, Bruce.
only 18K I'm surprised, would've expect at least 50K initial.
This guy made some wonderful actions , its a pity someone didn't give him some money to develop an idea
IIRC the Martini-Henry had a similar system where the pin the breechblock pivoted on did not take the load of firing.
Ian would you happen to know where i could find some technical drawings for that toggle locking design? I want to create one for my senior capstone 3d drafting project and after seeing this I knew it would be a fun and challenging project.
Question, does the toggle system have a hold open on this rifle? You didn't mention that in this video.
If it doesn't, that may be the reason the US Army didn't bother to test it. I can see were it would be a big problem trying to reload a clip while trying to hold that toggle open.
Why split the money and make two models for the same triles? Would have been beter concentrating on one and getting it right. Do you know why?
just curious if you know if there are any modern types of rifles that have used a toggle locking design?
Ian what are some of the best semi automatic battle rifles we never heard of manufactured from the 1800s to 1929? Your show has definitely interested me in Japanese firearms, I know Japan had the arisaka and the paratroop rifles, but did they ever try their hand at semi automatic? I also know the french had produced in limited numbers the fusil automatique 1917 (basically a semi auto lebel from my understanding), and the US had the experimental pederson, but who else had semi auto inventions during this era that were notable?
A design improvement that could be made (and also be made for all short recoiling rifles) is going to a bayonet system similar to the German G98s and K98s where there is no muzzle ring, rather the whole bayonet is supported by the stock alone. Maybe a nose cap similar to the No. 1 Mk. 3(*) Lee Enfields or the Swedish M94/14s might have also been a solution.
I'm sensing a theme with White's freehand guns...pleasant for shooting, not quite rugged enough for fighting.
And good morning all.
This one looks about 8 months whereas white's gas operated looked about 7. It's hard to tell as everyone carries a little differently. Given another couple months I would have loved to see what came out.
if the grippy part on the front part of the toggle were pushed forward could it maybe lock the toggle back for inspection ?
5:25, might the gripping surfaces be for holding the toggle open?
Beautiful mekanik
I'm really surprised that it wasn't a complaint that the toggle action obscures your view. I would have figured that it would be distracting.
Ian, what's with the weird comb on the top of the grip?
This rifle is actually really cool tbh
Are there any non semi automatic toggle lock rifles?
+Kris Bluefield Yes, a bunch of Olympic biathlon rifles use a manually operated toggle lock.
I hate to ask and I'm having trouble finding them but I was looking to get a sling somewhat like the biathletes use it seems the hook on their shoulders rather than swing over their head and that seems rather useful for what I intend coyote hunting while I'm skiing. do you know of any companies that make those biathlon slings or where I might find out that information?
I have an AR-15 45acp direct blowback that trigger slaps that bad. Its bottoming out the hammer in the disconnector. Any advice how to fix this?
Could those "gripping surfaces" allow the striker to be re-cocked without operating the action? (5:25)
+o2wow It doesn't look like, in the video, the toggle was ever brought back far enough to insert a clip. I was thinking that maybe the gripping surface could help lock the toggle back all the way manually. The re-cocking idea is a good one as well, but then it offers the risk of something that may have become 'White Knuckle' or 'White Fingers'. Imagine if, while trying to re-cock the toggle after having pulled the trigger, the round then went off, pushing the toggle up at your hand. I don't imagine it to be a pleasant sensation.
+NormanMatchem you can see full travel of the toggle at 6:50
"trigger slap"...I'm a bit surprised it wasn't considered problematic at the factory.
I think the USofA test was, Fired one shot got slapped by the trigger and said, "0h hell NO!"
Locking with a small tab on the outside like this, wouldn't it be prone to fail with dirt?
Imagine dust and grit entering those tightly machined, nicely oiled components. Exposed working parts are never a good idea and are a "symptom" of early, turn of the century automatic weapons, definitely obsolete by 1930. The British military was right to reject it.
Wonder if this rifle would handle modern day factory .30-06 rounds? I know the Garand can't really handle a modern round without damage without a ported or vented gas plug.
You know this is why Forgotten Weapons is so good. As if it weren't for you this piece of heritage would appear from private ownership briefly and then disappear into private ownership without being documented and our knowledge would be all the poorer. Cheers
Oh, so this thing has a name - "trigger slap". I've heard GSh-18 pistols have that, and not just deficient ones, it's unavoidable "feature" of their mechanism.
nice
Hey Ian, are you by any chance gonna take a look at the Winchester-Lee prototype sniper rifle?
+TheGoldenCaulk He will if you have one on hand, and are willing to let him handle it :D
if one is sold at RIA or Julia auction house he will, I hope. he did go to the springfield armory at one point thou.. in short he might but no one knowes.
+TheGoldenCaulk Plinkett. ;)
jegergladformad86 I only mention it because I actually saw a listing at RIA for the very same rifle. Fingers crossed that they let him have a look
+TheGoldenCaulk Lol shame on me:D sorry about the diatribe then, let's hop you got me interrestet in the rifle when you mentioned it before. Let's hope.
jegergladformad86 No problem, here's the link if you wanna check it out
www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/66/lid/3116
Ya, pretty obvious why it wasnt adopted lol. I think the Army still made the right call with the Garand all things considered...
Anyway, since im absolutely fascinated by early semi-autos I still think this is cool as hell. My favorite firearms niche. Thanks for the video Ian.
rambokicksass77 Agreed 100%.
Honestly the M1 did everything that was required of it near perfectly. Thats why its remembered so fondly by vets. All of this hindsight 'what about this, what about that' is fun but unfair because it takes the rifle out of context imo.
So Ian, you have a high speed camera. How about a portable X-ray?
The patent for this action is 2,037,647 dated 14 April 1936
This is a very impressive weapon it's too bad there's only one of these it's much like an improved Patterson rifle it's a damn shame I would really like to have shot this
If I was a rich guy, I'd buy one of these crazy prototypes and then call Ian and let him know...when ever you are in the neighborhood well, she's all yours...I want to see inside too.
Ugh, I really wish this had taken off. I wonder what guns would look like today if this was the M1 garand?
I wonder if the reason this gun wasn't tested because they already had a toggle locked rifle in the Pedersen.
Never complain about the complexities of the G-43 again.
I've never experienced trigger slap, but if it can cause your trigger finger to go numb then I would definitely have to pass.
If the toggle lock is so “weak” (1873, 1876 Winchester) then how come it can handle these? It seems to be all in the engineering of the actual mechanism
it was in Order 1886 video game.
as your at RIA can you make a vid of the Colt Walker plz ;)
No.
Don't be such a stick in the mud!
The first modern revolver!
Yeah, hence is why it's not forgotten. He should do a review on the Pattern 1851 Minie Rifle though.
Fair point, but just how many times are you going to see someone messing about with a original walker though!
Hardly ever. Maybe I would like to see a shooting video of one, though, there's an obvious problem with that.
To a total gun noob, what is the point of the action moving backwards? Recoil absorption? Or something else?
+Paul Canning When the action is forward, the bolt is locked and cannot open. Forcing the action to move back ensures that the opening of the bolt is delayed until the bullet has left the barrel and pressure in the barrel has dropped to a safe level.
So, manually open the toggle, the bolt only opens in the last bit? Also, why use this kind of design? What's the advantage / disadvantage over other firing mechanisms?
+EvilDeathNightmare Personally I don't think there are many advantages to this action over other semi-auto actions. The Garand used a tilting two lug bolt, where the locking time was determined by a certain amount of travel by the op rod before it engaged the caming lug. So instead of the whole action moving inside of the stock, it is only the operating rod and bolt.
One advantage of the design for the time is that there is no gas port drilled in the barrel, which was an early requirement of US ordinance for their service rifle (early Garand used a gas trap). And as Ian stated, unlike the Pederson, the action was actually locked while the pressure was the highest in the chamber, so it should have been safer.* **
Disadvantage of this design seems to be more mechanical complexity, probably costs more to manufacture, more to go wrong.
The Browning model 5 was one of the first semi auto designs, and it used a long recoil system to do the same thing. The entire barrel and action recoils inside the stock to its full rearward travel. The action catches the bolt then, and the barrel is pushed forward by the action spring. Once forward, it trips a bolt release, allowing the bolt to strip a new round.
This rifle uses a bit of a hybrid of that and the Luger toggle lock. The action recoiling together keeps the action locked for safety, and the toggle actually accomplishes the cycling of the action. For contemporary designs, it's pretty over complicated and over engineered. But it accomplished its goals, and it's fascinating to see how different engineers tackled the same problem.
*the Pederson was speced to use a special wax coated ammo to facilitate extraction, I assume to overcome the still high chamber pressures due to the non-locked delayed action. I would hazard a guess that this type of action does not need that wax coating.
**the HKG3/CETME design (which can be traced to the MP44) used a roller delayed locking design, which was also subject to high extraction pressures, and the chamber was fluted to accomplish the same thing as Pederson's case coating.
EvilDeathNightmare
Sorry you have the attention span of a gnat then. I at least break up my walls of text into paragraphs. Some internet novel writers don't even have that courtesy.
I would hate to get my finger caught between that heat shield and Receiver
I would love it!
When they were being tested both bores were in good shape right..?
bones020694
So what really happened was that testing revealed the bore wore out too fast, making it inaccurate. Not that it was an inaccurate design.
+bones020694
I think you are referring to White's other prototype? Pederson rifles have not been covered recently by Ian.
I bet there was some snickering when White presented this to the trials.
I think those kinds of actions are stupid but I also think they're awesome
It's a shame only 2 White rifles exist, I would've loved to see this weapon in action, but alas that'll probably never happen unless you buy it outright!
Wouldn't be very adaptable to scope use. The scope would have to be mounted off to the side.
+phlodel or further forward. like an AK. Perhaps a mount on the stock, seeing as the barrel recips.
+phlodel You mean like they had to do with the Garand?
Would this need lubricated ammo like a Peterson?
+Phillip Igyarto No, it should not have.
+Forgotten Weapons Thanks! I'm modeling a rifle in a video game I'm making off of this rifle and wanted to make sure. Your videos have actually helped me a ton in researching weird prototype rifles from this time-period.
+Phillip Igyarto In general, the lubricated ammunition requirement accompanies delayed-blowback actions. If they don't delay enough, the extraction pressure is really high and the lubrication is needed. If you have a toggle lock together with a different operation mechanism (like the short recoil on a Luger) you shouldn't have that issue because the system is staying locked/closed longer.
@@phillipigyarto9066 What game?
@@zacharyrollick6169 I've got some videos of me working on it on my channel. Its supposed to be a kinda pulp sci-fi action RPG but I haven't gotten much done on it lately. The video I do have shows off my version of this rifle though which is pretty cool imo.
a shame that White was always a day late and a dollar short.
wow what a psychotically over complicated rifle
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gave the 420th like
Luger rifle
The Garand is a beautiful rifle, this thing, and the other White rifle are really ugly things.
they , and the Paterson ridge, are the parents of the Garand, of course the son of better in all aspects
This rifle looks like its pregnant..
I wrote that just 30 seconds prior to you mentioning that.
why the fuck would you fire your gun in the air ?
An infantry man may have fire up at attack aircraft or maybe assaulting a position up a steep incline.
i am imagining a straight 90 degree angle here, and traditionally attack aircraft would be flying to high for an infantry man to shoot at
It might also affect steep angle fire like uphill.
urban combat, shooting from the base of a building into upper windows or balconies. warfare in mountains or canyons, not as steep an angle as say urban combat, but still fairly steep.
+jackdaniel holt-ellison Shooting someone up a tree or in the top of a guard tower, anyone standing at the top of a cliff when you are at the bottom, (such as Omaha Beach on D-Day?) shooting someone on a wall when you are taking cover at the base, there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons - not every target you want to shoot at is on a range, level piece of ground or in a college classroom
Gorgeous machining but way over built Rolex lol
Hit like, if you like bacon!!!
+sg airsoft Fuck you.