Rise of the Rōnin is Butter Spread Too Thin | Review
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- Rise of the Rōnin is Butter Spread Too Thin | Review. Team Ninja are my favorite developer. I know over the years they have received a lot of criticism, especially of the Dead or Alive Series, for their signature mixture of brutal battling and beautiful ... women. The Ninja Gaiden Series, even among casual game journalists, is still beloved and respected. However, since the departure of Itagaki in 2008 (right after the release of the true masterpiece Ninja Gaiden 2 on the Xbox 360), it seems like the team has struggled with re-establishing their signature brand of game design and seem to be moving in a new creative direction since the release of the excellent Dark Souls-influenced Nioh in 2017.
The issue with this new creative direction, however, as Ronin clearly illustrates, is that following along and being the secondary Pepsi to Fromsoft's Coca-Cola was a novel and interesting idea seven years ago. Since that time however, and especially since the release of the Parry Focused Sekiro in 2019, copying the current Fromsoft formula of Parry + Stamina + Stagger is far from being original or interesting -- especially because this has essentially become the action game standard. Even Armored Core 6, a supposed mech game, utilizes this formula to some degree. With other new developers, like the creators of The Lies of P, copying Fromsoft isn't surprising, but in the case of Team Ninja, who were once on the cutting edge of combat design only a few years ago and who made some genuinely cool innovations with the Ki-Pulse system of the Nioh franchise, the Rise of the Ronin feels like creative burnout. When discussing their vision for the game, the thing that stands out the most is Team Ninja discussing expected sales figures and it certainly comes across when playing Ronin that the move to this expanded open-world setting is much more of a commercial choice rather than a creative one.
The open-world aspect of the game's design is certainly underdeveloped, even casual reviewers have pointed this out, but what is even more of an issue with Ronin's world/level design is that for a combat focused game, all the time spent wandering around and doing fetch quests devastates the gameplay density and all of the open ended space allows for players to effortlessly siphon away enemies from groups and slowly pick them off one by one. Bayonetta and Devil May Cry have locked in combat areas for a reason Team Ninja.
Right now Rise of the Ronin is a PS5 exclusive and goes for the absurd price of $70. And being a Sony Published game, it seems unlikely they will be releasing it on Steam (PC) anytime soon (Sony wants another Bloodborne I think). But hopefully in the near future it will drop on sale because buying it full price seems steep.
Very cool thumbnail created by the master, himself @boghogSTG
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00:00 Chapter 1: Team Ninja Are Lost
09:19 Chapter 2: Open-World Dilutes Combat
16:54 Chapter 3: Stagger and Parry Burnout
29:03 Chapter 4: Style is AGGRESSIVELY Bland
33:05 Final Thoughts
#teamninja, #riseoftheronin, #sekiro - Hry
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us that non-linear level design is better than linear level design
I could barely call most non linear level "design". It's more like spreading butter as the video said.
It's because people started to buy games based on game length rather than quality. Metal Gear Solid 1 is only about 8-10 hours long if you pad it out, same for MGS2 and MGS3. Meanwhile MGSV got the same review scores despite having a far worse story, worse level design, more busy work, worse dialogue, worse attention to detail, etc. because it's 100 hours long.
Open world games are still linear they just have a painfully long and obtuse line.
@@guymontag5084 Exactly. It's as if game developers have forgotten that games can be... replayed! And the best games make you want to replay them again and again.
Eugene Jarvis said that non linear games only exist because the developers don't know how to make a fun game.
Three things:
1. Regarding auteurs, the only big one really left is Suda 51 imo. People are hung up on the jank of his games though.
2. Itagaki would've eventually sunk Team Ninja based on what happened after he left and did on his own.
3. Team Ninja not being known for their graphics being a heavily regurgitated comment from many people makes me died inside. Ninja Gaiden and DOA2 on Dreamcast were way ahead of their time. They just lost their touch since NG3.
Unless your into indie games
The lack of hitstun on attacking enemies during their attacks is probably the worst problem in these action game. Being forced to play lame or get 2 hit killed by a villager with a broken sword that randomly have super armor on his light attacks.
I agree. I think if they just removed that aspect of the enemy design, the game's combat would feel much more flexible and fundamental. Because if you can't interrupt the enemy attacks, that means you can't dictate the pace of the combat, even on basic enemies. Instead, low tier mooks have the ability to make to stand a wait, which makes the game feel very tedious over time, especially on repeated encounters of village clearing the same enemies over and over.
Sounds like you just suck at the game, learn how to parry, RotR is their easiest game, git gud
You just suck at the game
@@TheElectricUndergroundthat's simply not true though. You can for example interrupt attacks with the revolver and the shurikens, both of which also cause hit stuns to continue or begin pressure.
You can lock enemies down in this game, I do it, and there's already plenty of clips and Japanese streams on youtube here of players doing it consistently.
@@orangemegaslide oh nice, I totally forgot that the handgun & Shuriken do guarantee hitstun right? If so, then yeah you probably can interrupt enemy attacks. I'll have to test this for myself.
It strikes me that Rise of the Ronin could've have been served well with a world design that is like Way of the Samurai's where the world isn't open, but rather a collection of interconnected areas that you travel between. You could have characters appear and special events occur at certain times of the day
Man, I wish we could get another way of the samurai. That choose-your-own-adventure-book kind of design is really interesting, and unlike a modern open-world game, it's all curated content and the game tends to be fairly short on a first playthrough.
Yes and on top of that the connecting sections are filled with dangerous enemies that you have to survive and battle through without additional resources, that would give so much more tension and meaning to the open world design. So going from 1 town to the next would be a gauntlet, rather than a boring stroll.
Yeah but unfortunately then you would have to actually design something
A Yakuza style sandbox would've been perfect imo
To me, (the OG) Dark Souls was more of an adventure game in the style of Ocarina of Time than it was an action game. The combat system was fine, just as it was in Ocarina of Time, but it was never really what made it special. What made it special was more so the atmosphere, the exploration, and in general the narratological (as opposed to ludological) side of the game.
I've always found it bizarre that all the Dark Souls imitators have only ever really taken the combat system from it. I also find it bizarre that Team Ninja seem to only be able to make soulslikes nowadays.
They definitely have aesthetically based souls-likes, I mean Mortal Sell, Lies of P and Blasphemous to name a few.
@@markhavick7115 I would want to add Clash: Artifacts of Chaos to that list, even though that is not an outright Soulslike but instead has elements of a Souls game.
But very, very strongly fits on a list of aestethically striking games.
@@markhavick7115 It's not about aesthetics, it's about adventure. I haven't played Mortal Sell, but Lies of P and Blasphemous definitely do not replicate the exploration/experimentation-focused structure of DaS1/DeS. Even in copying what they perceive to be the combat mechanics, they miss the point. Features like parries, backstabs, dodge s, etc. were optional, specialized situational tricks for you to discover (or not) in those early From games, whereas imitators turned that into a worn-out staple. The old Fromsoft style really was to replicate the experience of dealing with an IRL dungeon master through intentionally opaque mechanics being applied to consistently novel level design. I find games like The Witness and Outer Wilds to be closer to the spirit of those games than any of the "Soulslike" trendchasers.
Ronin isn't even soulslike at all. People like to give all the credit to Souls games for a modern Ocarina of Time design, but Team Ninja actually utilized that design first in a modern era gaming with Ninja Gaiden 1, that did difficult but satisfying combat in an hub world with intricately interconnected level design.
Yes I agree completely. I call Dark Souls grown up zelda, and I mean that as a compliment ha. Because it basically takes the zelda formula and updates it to be much more intense and fleshed out. That being said, a lot of these action rpg elements don't lend themselves well to a pure action style game, which Team Ninja clearly want to make on some level, but seem afraid to for some reason (probably sales after NG3 struggled so much).
Ronin’s combat has way more depth and variety than Sekiro. The only comparison you can make is that you can parry here too, and Sekiro isn’t even the first game to implement a parry system. It's a bit of a surface level comparison. You also don't have to rely on parry and can utilize block and dodge for majority of the game similar to Ninja Gaiden 1. This game has more in common with Way of the Samurai than Sekiro. The open world has been a blast since it revolves around a bond system with the npcs who surprisingly have been pretty well written, and it’s been insane actually discovering over 20 different combat styles all unique with their own move sets which makes the combat encounters never getting old in my 60+ hours of playing. Game's been highly addicting
💯. It took me some time to find my groove but honestly I've been enjoying the hell out of it. It gets real addicting once you start learning all the different styles
Way of the samurai was the SHIT!!!!
Is it just me or have Japanese game developers become almost as trend-chasing (some would say "analytics-driven") as western studios? I always admired it when Japanese studios just did their thing, even when it only had a small (but reliable) audience) niche audience.
There was always trend chasing. But in the past they put best foot forward with a key gimmic.
Most developers have to chase trends due to the reality of this market. The difference was in the 80 to early 2000s the japanese were trend setters: survival horror, spectacle action were staple of the ps2/OG xbox. Mid 2000 and onward, not anymore. It was western devs, then korean, chinese... They set one recent trend with soul like and that's that.
alot of them are chasing the wrong trends now and its going to end very badly for them
They were always trendchasers.
The difference is that the trends they usually chase didn't badly clash with the stuff they actully know and like making.
In this case, going from linear action games to suddenly and open world game, it is very obvious they were chasing a trend they barely have experience making.
Blame ballooning budgets, cutthroat investors and market saturation for that one, chief.
It's not that game devs (all around the world) don't want to be creative and push boundaries, but when a single flop can cause hundreds of employees to be fired, they become very averse to taking risks.
It's also why indie games have flourished, since they can afford to take those risks, with the trade-off being much lower production values.
I love FROM’s games but really would wish others developers would stop trying to “replicate” them.
agreed. Fromsoft make their style of combat for a reason and it def fits what they are going for with their style of action rpg design, but these elements like stagger, parry, and stamina, shouldn't be just automatically plugged into other forms of combat design. Devs need to go back to action oriented fundamentals rather than action rpg fundamentals.
Team ninja games are technically "soulslikes" but they have developed their own style, their games are nothing like fromsoftwares, the combat is much more fast paced, fluid and smooth, team ninja have developed the niohlike
Developers follow popular trends, always have and always will, lots of ppl buy these soulslikes, its definitely one of the most popular genres now, if you don't like them then don't play them, it's pretty simple, there are plenty of games out there, not every game is for everyone and shouldn't be
@@mathewhosier9739Ninja Gaiden isn't even remotely a souls like lol
Then we wouldn’t. have greats like the Surge games or Lies of P . I’m ok with it.
Tbf Hideki Kamiya broke away from Capcom to make Platinum in the first place.
That's true! But he also took Capcom staff with him, don't forget that. It's not like Kamiya left Capcom and built Platinum with a brand new set of staff, which would probably have been impossible back then, he wasn't a household name or anything.
@@TheElectricUnderground Also, From Software didn't really blow up until Hidetaka Miyazaki took over and created Demon's Souls and then Dark Souls, which were almost entirely his vision and has completely changed video games at this point. And Dark Souls 2 while not created by Hidetaka Miyazaki is still quality IMO but you can really feel the influence of him missing, while others might say it's just really bad. There's something interesting to look into there I think because the way the game plays is very good still, if not just better in a few aspects. It's mostly level design, atmosphere/lore stuff that people dislike most, things Miyazaki would probably obsess over and make sure were perfect.
This is yet another AAA game where everything about it resembles a "simulator" rather than an intentional, artistically-driven challenge. When everything is reduced to modular, easily interchangeable objects placed in an open world, the whole game just becomes a repeated and predictable series of code-driven simulation. So often in recent AAA games I get this vibe where I just feel like I'm "sitting in a 3D engine, orbiting game objects around each other" rather than getting lost an immersive game experience. FromSoft is the major exception to this and all comes down to that studio's amazing level and environment design. FromSoft's games constantly deliver deliberate, crafted experiences to the player.
I recently decided to give Ikaruga a shot after hearing about it for many years and, man, do I wish I had played this game earlier. Every single second of that game is a direct conversation between player and developer. It wouldn't be a legendary and iconic sh'mup if it was an open world where you flew around randomly encountering bots and blowing them up for generic quest objectives. The game's systems are actually quite simple and straightforward,. It's the intense, painstakingly designed levels that makes the entire experience unforgettable. The best action games are no different.
I feel like this is another symptom of the pressure AAA studios feel to ensure their games feel "long and fulfilling for a single playthrough", rather than tightly designed and a joy to replay again and again.
So glad I found this channel. It’s considerate game criticism without being too clinical or overly objective. It’s coming from someone who just loves games.
Also, I’m more Team Ninja/Ninja Gaiden than FromSoft/Souls. Ninja Gaiden and Sekiro are my favorite games. I am this channel. This channel is me.
He’s quite critical of Sekiro
@@magicjohnson3121 I got that vibe from the video. I love it though. Could not and cannot get into the other Souls games.
@@schvyler sekiro shouldve been a boss rush, the rest is fluff. you could make the same case for Dark Souls/ER aswell. reason being, you can run past all the enemies, you're almost never forced to fight them apart from grinding.
@@westonstaufenberg7278 Yeah, after you beat the game, you can speed run to bosses since you know where they are (which is why they added a boss gauntlet in an update).
But nearly all enemies in Sekiro can easily kill you without breaking a sweat (katana monkey can suck it). If you’re playing for the first time, those experiences are crucial - avoiding them means not mastering mechanics and enemy types. Calling it fluff misses that there are non-boss battles that teach you how to play.
@@schvyler I have 500 hrs in Sekiro, i know how it is. Yes most enemies can kill you no problem, but you can completely avoid them. On NG+ and after you have all abilities unlocked, theres not point in engaging them, it becomes boss rush/ w pointless traversal in between. Another problem w/ Sekiro, is that the tools and combat arts are very useful and make the combat more nuanced but they make them cost too much and you cant use too many of them. 9 times of out 10, i sticked to shurikens, the Umbrella and dragon flash, and some of the free moves.
Mark is the type of dude to eat butter by itself
I prefer to spread mayo on top of lightly melted sticks 😋
@@Tetsaga under the mayo?🤨
I love eating butter by itself.
Ha the most effective way to get to the calories.
What a guy. :”)
When these big Japanese game directors leave the soul of the projects tend to never recover. Sure, the talent of game creation is there but it's akin to the soul leaving the body. Look at Final Fantasy after Sakaguchi left. Look at everything post RE5 after Mikami left & look at Team Ninja atter Itagaki left. Is FF12 Good considering it's crazy development? Sure. Are the RE games after 5 good? Debatable. Are Tean Ninja a stand out company now that the rizz is gone? Nah. One director can't create a project by themselves but they certainly can add soul & syle & that is something this game lacks. 😐
While Mark is right, there is usually talent in the lower ranks without a face. A good lead/manager paves the way for you to deliver the kickass goods.
From my own practical experience.
Yes I agree completely, and I hope I communicated this in my opening section of the review. I really wanted to point out that it's a misconception that itagaki can just bounce out from team ninja and create games at that same level, because of how critical the programmers and hands on staff are in terms of not only execution of the mechanics, but also the balancing of them. It's actually the programmers, typically, that balance the moves and give the game its actual feel in many ways. They are really under-appreciated in game design discussion. That being said though, the lead visionaries like Itagaki are also key for being that person willing to push the team to take risks and then get blamed if things go wrong ha. So that's a key role too. The conclusion being, as simple as it sounds, both parties are better off together than apart. Itagaki needs Team Ninja and Team Ninja needs Itagaki. :-)
Team ninjas action RPGs have more "soul" than 90% of the industry
i wasn't a fan of doa back in 2000s when Itagaki was making these games, but i am pretty sure, if Itagaki was still with team ninja, Tekken didn't have such easy time as "The Only 3d Fighting game" , he surely came up with some idea about making a comeback or something, i only say things i heard and feels like, ...i think , he really cared about his game, about the characters he entered in his fighting games, their connection to his other games like NG, (no shit, he clearly said "Kasumi is team ninja's heroine and his fav character"), i heard, he had some plans for a strucking story mode for doa 5 (when fighting games didn't have story mode at all)...i don't know what would happened if Itagaki would had remained...but i am pretty sure, at worst case scenario, doa and ninja gaiden would have still breating, and giving challenge to tekken and fromsoftware ,at least a little , or maybe so much..
It's crazy how you are the only real game reviewer on CZcams.
Really??
Dude’s just throwing mad shade on everyone for no reason
He's definitely very honest but he is NOT the only real game reviewer if you're just looking a surface level popular game critics
He's giving his opinion nothing wrong with that
Why, because you agree with him? Don't mistake that for good and honest.
i dispise combat systems when the enemies' attacks do big damage and your attacks do chip
feels like i am wielding a whiffle bat
also.. the candles in the crouch tunnels. The f? How hasn't that place burned down?
Or maybe you just suck, learn to parry and git gud
@@mathewhosier9739 you're a profane creature.. disgusting thing
*decided that was a bit harsh. i know it's just an npc response. i wonder if it can think..
please defend the concept of you doing nearly no damage unless you parry, especially against many enemies at once
Yeah i agree. I think we are seeing this more now because a lot of combat games I guess feel that every enemy needs to be a little boss battle, rather than seeing the value in having a lot of weaker enemies that you group together and combo. We are seeing a war on hitstun ha.
@@mathewhosier9739 you're an npc consumer
I have never watched your channel. This being the first video I've seen from you, I am hella impressed. I'll be looking at your other videos and look forward to your steller blade review.
Something sad I'm noticing with these japanese companies is when they start to cater to "modern audiences" they transform into something different.
I call them now global companies because they feel like a weird mix between japanese gameplay (at best) and western style (the focus of hyperrealism and bland style that can't offend anyone).
It's sad because I started to stop being interested in a lot these companies and more and more started to follow this trend.
Anyways great review. Followed!
Thank you very much Led and yeah Team Ninja are definitely aiming for a more international audience. In one way, I don't think that has to be a bad thing in some ways, since old school team ninja like Ninja Gaiden was a big crossover hit on the Xbox, the most western console of all time ha. But sadly, because of the shifting taste among the western gaming audience in terms of sexy content has become so sensitive, it means that catering to a western audience means taking a blowtorch to any content that is slightly provocative sexually ha. I do think we can see this trend hopefully ending in the near future, but we'll see!
Team ninja have never catered to a "modern audience", they are clearly niche games developed for a small hard-core audience, fromsoftware makes western style games as well but you don't judge them the same way, there is nothing about team ninjas games that "doesn't offend anyone", they clearly don't care about that, the problem with you westerners is you think the whole world is just like your f*card up society, team ninja are the complete opposite of most western developers
It's not the taste of the Western audience. It's a handful of people on Twitter.
The algorithm did me good today, just started watching and this review is spot on in the most well stated way
The aesthetics of your thumbnails and everything you design or have designed for your channel and brand is always so fresh
I'm really happy to hear that! Yes, I want my channel to be distinct not only in terms of what I say, but also aesthetics -- because I do think aesthetics do help communicate a distinctive feel as well, as I pointed out in the Ronin review ha. In terms of thumbnails too, I have to massively credit @boghogstg as the man making the awesome style come together, he's a genius of thumbnail design.
I just replayed your video again and what do you mean by full time job?
Did you try using weapons besides the katana? I feel like the heavier weapons would be able to stagger more reliably
I'm still hanging out for an action game that will make me feel as pumped as Ninja Gaiden 2 did. Who will be the next Itagaki?
I hope Abyss X Zero is good. I am having a hard time on finding a good action game that are new.
@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 I don't think that game going for something character action like. Looks more like megaman legends/dark souls
@@TheAnimatedGamerawww Dark Souls!?? Its always that.
Itagaki make unwanted dead, check it out
SIFU is the only game that's come close to how I felt playing NG2.
Your perspective on gaming is honestly so refreshing
Great video once again, it really is no contest when it comes to who is the best on youtube in really exploring the art form of great game design.
When the cost of making a AAA action adventure game is becoming really expensive and can take several years to complete,you really can’t afford to be bold and niche and cater for the 1% hardcore playerbase.
In order to make money you have to make your game palatable for the majority of players in order to sell copies. Therefore you see the trends: open worlds, parrying , rpg elements, exploration.
You should really consider this in your Videos. Its not because developers don’t know about game design, gameplay density etc , they have to make compromises in order to chase more sales
That makes sense honestly. It sucks that developers can’t take more risk now a days
I do consider this actually, but it is the role of the critic to critique flawed design trends and ideas, rather than excuse them. If i adopted this mentality of bland design is okay because bold design is risky, why even bother reviewing games at that point? There are going to be a thousand issues and economic forces that can be used to excuse poor design in a board room or in a stock report, but in terms of the artistic content, it is the primary duty of the developer to do a good job and the duty of the critic to evaluate the outcome. Anything less and it's just being a cheerleader or marketer.
@@TheElectricUnderground so the point I’m trying to make is Team Ninja now is not Team Ninja from 2008 when gaming was a bit nuanced and niche. Now its all mainstream.
Lets be honest Ronin was always not going to appeal to old school ninja gaiden fans. But people still cling on to hope because of the team ninja logo. This game was not worth a review really thats how bland and boring it is.
Yet the players all clamoured for this and scoffed at Wanted Dead.
@@jateenkasan6351 gaming stopped being “niche” the moment GTA3 and Halo came out and arguably prior to that too
@@jateenkasan6351 "This game was not worth a review " I disagree strongly. This review alone made the game existing worth it. Some piece of art are important not just because of their own merits, but also by how people review them. Context is almost as important as the content itself. This review has done a tremendous job at explaining the context. This is one of the best review you can expect to see. There's a already a sea of bland game review that will only review the game itself without explaining context.
extremely underrated game design analysis! i love your channel!
Loving your videos bro.
Did you like Ghost? Trying to decide which one to get and play right now
The sexy thing is 100% an over-correction, the point people were trying to make with being against sexual objectification was the general lack of women characters existing for any other purpose and the possible effect of that on our collective psyche. Failing to understand the nuance in the difference between sexiness and objectification and instead interpreting it as "westerners hate sex appeal" has led to this style or lack thereof to avoid controversy. Cool sexy characters who are interesting and have multiple sides like Bayonetta and 2B were popular even among some of the crowd who opposed objectification despite getting some controversy but overall I think they were well received. Even westerners have failed to understand this distinction somewhat and have cut back on it and now you see the Korean pop culture market flooding the void by spamming sexiness in Kpop videos and porn manhuas and video games like with their MMOs and now with Stellar Blade. Nature abhors a vaccum.
What a great comment philo. Yes over-correction is the perfect word. The lack of nuance around the conversation of sexually attractive characters is why this discussions keeps going in circles over and over for all these years ha.
It's not really "over-correction." The problem is actually two-fold. The first problem is that most of these western video game companies are hiring by ticking boxes instead of hiring based on merit. The best people for the job are no longer the ones getting the job. Hiring based on skin color and gender is supposed to be illegal but no one wants to challenge it so here we are. In fact this is going on in nearly every facet of western society, not just video games. Careful what airliner you decide to fly with. The second problem is that gaming companies are being black mailed, bullied, and fear mongered by activist consulting groups. These activists, using the aforementioned tactics, take the games these companies are working on and make them "socially acceptable." This can range anywhere from changing a characters gender/sex appeal (always from a man to a woman, and always hot to ugly) to rewriting the entire narrative. That's right, they have the power to take the story someone else wrote and completely change it for ideological purposes. All of this is being done in the name of "Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity" but that couldn't be further from the truth. These activists hate games and the gamers that play them. They are a bunch of racists and sexists that have been brainwashed into believing they aren't. Some of them, including the CEO of Sweet Baby Inc. (one of the consulting groups), are on record saying you can't be racist to white people. These reasons are primarily why video gaming, along with the west, is going down the drain. Creativity has been sacrificed on the alter of ideology and it's not going away any time soon.
Bayonetta, Lara Croft and especially 2B all got the Stellar Blade treatment by the press back in the day as well. It wasn't quite as violent a reaction because the hobby was only just becoming popular, lucrative and culturally relevant enough for all the failed political journalists and activists to take notice. Neither the press nor the developers hated the customers so openly and thoroughly back then either.
Love your takes on Gameplay Density as a concept and love that you are reviewing for the Gameplay nuts like you and I. Hope you keep up the modern action game reviews. I'll try to beat some schmups and eventually 1CC the one I like.
Man, finally started playing Ninja Gaiden 3 since I put it off for so long. I just love how much they throw at you right off the bat and just keeps that momentum. Really wish Team Ninja would go back to that 8( Wonder if they'll ever make a forth and if they do if it will do the series justice.
aggressively plain's a nice way to describe the character design in alot of these games now
Some of us care more about Gameplay and things that actually matter than graphics, that's the problem with you western gamers, your so obsessed with graphics that your blinded by it and don't realize what actually makes a game good
Yes I'm fond of that word choice ha. Because it's not just plain because of lack of artistic talent, it's plainness as an artistic statement.
@@mathewhosier9739 was just taking a dig at the intentional uglification western devs do to character designs now, and saying that western gamers like me care about graphics more than gameplay on a channel that focuses alot on 2D shmups and beatemups is quite silly
Ironically, JRPGs figured out how to combine an open world and handcrafted levels before they were even popular.
Credit to most CRPGs for doing the same thing too, despite them not really having action combat, usually.
Dungeons suck in 90% of JRPGs so I can't agree they've figured it out
@@Amra.. dont forget random encounters that are just a pushover.
eh, really? open worlds mostly all suck
yeah I think a lot of these older concepts of open world design need to be reincorporated in some ways. Like imagine in rise of ronin if the open world was just filled with swarming enemies like how rpgs have random encounters in the open world sections. That actually does create a sense of tension when in the open world, like in pokemon red when your in that final cave and your trying to make it to the elite four. So if ronin's open world was littered with aggressive dangerous enemies that you have to battle through, the would make the open world a more proper gameplay element rather than a loading screen.
How can you say that when it comes to games focusing on combat open world design is not a good fit when we have ghost of tsushima ?
$80 hell nah. I will play old games forever if it comes to that
yeah what the hell is happening with game prices? 70 was already pushing it, especially since there is so much too play and choose from. Supply and demand my friend, it's really that simple. I do not think the demand for new games is high enough to pay 80 bucks a release.
You're actually giving a bit too much credit to Team Ninja in a sense, when you don't consider the early development of the 3D character action genre, especially by not taking early 2000s Capcom in consideration. I'd say Team Ninja have never been innovators; they've always refined or retooled already made concepts. This goes for DOA compared to Virtua Fighter, Ninja Gaiden to Devil May Cry and Nioh to Dark Souls.
Otherwise your critique is as well articulated and interesting as usual, and the points you argue for are valid.
nice review thank you, good luck going full time !
I appreciate how straight forward you are. Too many would not go to the point of the issue in fear of being called names. It's not just that a design can be sexy but on an objective, technical construction and appreciation of a design is also something to strive for. As someone who finds growth in effort and the appreciation of beauty in all things it's important to have good design. That's a thing the agents of the politburo could never understand. Oh and yeah, games are fucking expensive, another reason to have things that are appealing. Nobody wants to pay 70+ bucks for something that plays like ass and looks like it too.
Im praying for a new DOA, we need it more than ever boys
With current politics, I Doubt it, Even DOA 5 And 6 cut the appeal and standarized a Lot of forms already, they were touched by DEI sooner, people Say that NPC's in FF VII rebirth are ugly when it has been like that since XV maybe XIII, Ninja Gaiden 3 was censored and rushed by Xbox and it flopped, that's why reviewers just say Black or Sigma time and time again, while honestly Razor's Edge has a stronger more fluid combat.
Mark your right about the overlap in sexyness and style.
An old way of describing beauty is:
Integrity- good health.
Proportionality- your nose isn't where ur ass is, etc.
Radiance- the little extra that makes you stand out.
This is suuuper important bcuz we have to decipher what our eyes are seeing and connectinons.
Note that in this era we have reused/refurbished assets, packed scheduels and ...things outside development.
Yes I love this way of explaining the situation because so many people mix up what is a true aesthetic principal with like larger real world implications. Of course you can read all that stuff into art and design if you want to, but everyone is going to have different tolerance levels for provocative art and it seems like devs are just aiming for the lowest standard of provocation possible -- none at all ha.
Amazing review!!
It really saddens me that it seems every action game that comes out these days are just soulslike. Stellar Blade seemed like finally it would be more akin to DMC but nope! Its also a soulslike. I just want more games with their own unique battle system.
Armored core 6 was the only unique fast pace action game this modern era
And ac fans hated it
Really thoughtful critique. I’ve never even heard of Jade Empire before watching this since I didn’t have any Xbox systems. Is it worth checking out?
It's a very mid and formulaic BioWare game that is only for the most hardcore enjoyers of their formula. The Chinese setting is an interesting idea, but feels handled in a very superficial and inauthentic way (feels more based on kung-fu movies than Journey to the West, The Water Margin, etc), and everything else is what you might expect like very mediocre pre-Mass Effect 2 action combat, absurdly black and white 'moral choices', story hinging on an easily predictable plot twist rather than character depth, etc. At least it's pretty short for the genre (
"FromSoft is like the Coca Cola and Team Ninja is like their Pepsi Cola"
LOL! As someone from Atlanta, I agree with this.
Well good thing, cause Pepsi is way better than Coke
Yeah I'm a definitely a Coca-Cola boy, Pepsi only wishes it was half as good.
@@mathewhosier9739 if you remember Pepsi's ad campaign in the 90s, they tried to say their beverage was "pretty much" just like Coke. Not better than Coke, but pretty much the same. Lol.
And there's a reason why there's a running joke about people asking the waiter for a Coca Cola and being asked in return if Pepsi is okay.
Let's have a deal, pepsi is better than cola but dark souls 2 is better than any team ninja games@@mathewhosier9739
Stranger of Paradise is the closest Team Ninja game to a Nioh 3, I'd imagine most fans of their older games enjoy it more than this and Wo Long. Plus it isn't really aimed at mainstream with the less serious and gameplay focused setting. I think it kind of flopped in japan because of the characters being more western appeal (which unironically end up being pretty fun)
You hit so many nails in the head with this video! It's one of the best dev teams in the world and I love them too. In terms of identity though, they appear to be a little bit lost at the moment. I believe they are kind of preparing themselves and testing the market for Ninja Gaiden IV.
And the way I see it, the NG Black formula is the way to go. An adventure, not an rpg, in a consistent interconnected world with rewarding exploration, almost constant white knuckle combat, interesting characters and those boss fights that made you feel like a superhero when you beat them. That would sell a lot, score high in reviews and put them back where they belong. Fingers crossed.
can u do a team ninja tier list (just for fun!)
this open world trend finally needs to end.
Bars
I liked sekiro and actually really liked jade empire, back in the day. I'll still probably get this game. Just not now. Not for $70, no way.
I think sekiro is really successful at what it set out to do, I'm more annoyed by every other game copying it that the game itself ha. As for jade empire, that game broke my heart. It mostly was just how much of a slog it was pace wise and how easy it was to completely break the combat ha. Ronin is def better than Jade empire, but a lot of it's structure reminds me of it ha.
Just FYI, turn on auto-loot if you're still playing. I noticed that a crafting item had R1 appear in your footage. Ain't nobody got time for that, lol.
These raw reviews are great!
I laughed so hard when I saw you were fighting Matthew Perry in a Team Ninja game.
i consider this more an analysis than a review, im not rly one who enjoys the action genre all that much, but i love it when content creators seamingly know their stuff and share insights on game design practices instead of just regurgitating the story..fun watch good job
What is your opinion about Dragon's Dogma 2 ?
As a long of time fan that has over 2000 hours, soloed the game entire to include BBI as every Vocation. DD2 is hot garbage.
It's a Dragons Dogma skin applied to Monster Hunter world. Enemies and player animations have een slowed in way down. The skill list of vocations is a quarter of what it was in the original. Combat is sluggish. The save system is utterly broken...I really don't know how to explain this since it seems to save at random which can land the player in a position where they have to reset to their last inn save which could have been hours ago due to the games design not any fault of the player. It's an insult to fans. There a lot more to me tion like the armor system getting completely whacked and that Grigori and other enemies are literally copy and pasted as if they were Remaking the first game but decided to throw a number II on it at the last minute, this is confirmed by the lack of a number II on the title screen. STAY FAR away lest the dragon steal your heart.
@@user-hr4bo1zj1qmodern gaming in a nutshell even the greatest fall at some point
You won my subscription...I, too , love Team Ninja of the past. Ninja Gaiden 2 (vanilla version), is in my top 5 games of all time, and dead or alive 5 is my absolute favorite fighter. I have been saying for years that Fromsoft games were literally just extensions of Ninja Gaiden games.
I've been waiting for someone else to note the departure of Itagaki from the company, and have been so shocked to hear so many creators say how bad Team Ninja games look. When it released, Ninja Gaiden looked better than anything else on the o.g. Xbox. Lest we forget...
now I'm waiting for the electric underground review of ninja blade
One of the things I loved about SIFU. It implemented it's own systems and refined them for better gameplay. The combat in that game was amazing.
Surely DoA6 selling poorly has nothing to do with selling the game in chunks of season passes DLC that each cost as much as the base game.
I would be interested in a retrospective on Wanted: Dead one year later, analyzed against other "recent" action games, including the likes of Stellar Blade and even Valkyrie Elysium (since also Soleil)..
I don't understand your complaint about travel time since the glider, horse and numerous fast travel points make getting around very quick and easy. You showed footage of yourself running on foot as an example which of course is slow. Why aren't you riding your horse?
Also what kinda control scheme are you using? The default controls have sprint tied to holding the dodge button. Seems like you made that awkward control scheme yourself. Overall I agree with the review it's just some complaints are disengenious.
@burstyourbubble3500 It's for the sake of convenience. Even if the game had crazy fun movement there would still be fast travel.
@burstyourbubble3500 If you want to travel the whole way go for it I guess. Fast travel doesn't mean you just can't travel normally anymore. Death Stranding is a game completely based around interesting movement mechanics and it still has fast travel
If you need to offer fast travel because traversing the game is boring and a chore, then your design is kinda iffy
@@facuuaf Mario Odyssey is entirely about movement in a 3d space and theres fast travel in it.
I recently tried out the Stellar Blade demo and am very curious on your thoughts once the full game drops. If this review is anything to go by, I can only imagine how mixed your thoughts are going to be on the combat but maybe I'm the crazy one and you'll love it, we'll see.
I think the major conversation people are going to have about the game is strictly going to be the character designs, which is baffling when a game like Nier Automata came out with baffling success and praise with a character whose ass is practically in frame for a majority of the play time. I feel people pick and choose when to have this conversation because it's only okay when certain games do it, almost feels like developer bias at times.
Although I'd be lying if I said the characters in Stellar Blade don't feel more sexualized with the tight clothes and jiggle physics 😅.
At worst, I personally felt it was an enjoyable demo that made me think of those PS2 era games like Red Ninja, Nightshade, and especially Bloodrayne with the really sexualized characters in an otherwise servicable but not too memorable game. I'd be more inclined the check it out but the story and gameplay didn't really draw enough attention for me to consider dropping the expected $80 which, yes, is fucking insane!!
Also Mark, I'm curious on your thoughts on the old Yakuza games and that sort of format of action game where the open map design is condensed enough where it's not overwhelming but with plenty to do with varied combat scenarios in those "locked room" combat situations. I'm not sure if you've ever brought up that series in the past outside of your previously mentioning how you could play Spikeout in Infinite Wealth.
Great video, although I think I'll stick with the Nioh games for the time being.
One of the only few game review channels that says exactly what ive been thinking for years.
It's a shame the jumping doesn't have much use here, and this is yet another game with an over-centralizing parry. why bother with nuances of the rest of the combat, once you get the timings down. Been there done that.
Still waiting for team ninja to make something great like with the ninja gaiden series, instead of these filler titles that don't appeal to veterans.
You can feel this has the framework to be an amazing title but it doesn't hit home.
It makes me wonder if you played it if you think it overcentralized parrying. This game has some of the tightest parry windows I've ever seen in a game. It encourages you to parry at the end of combos and red attacks only. You can parry everything if you're a god of course, but it's not practical. That's why you have your dodges and guard. Hell, you could probably beat this game without parrying and just dodging and blocking.
@@imurderragdolls it being tight doesnt take away from the point. Insert x game with x tight parry windows, means you can just learn the timing. Its a fundamental concept. You dont need to play the game to understand this.
That's a great summary Dragon. Yes why is the jump so under-developed in these games ha. I guess the devs are scared if the jump is too good then they'd have to make the enemy ai be able to respond to jumping, which starts to enter proper action game territory ha. I'm sitting and waiting for team ninja to break out of their shell and go all in on action as well. I know they have the talent, they just need the vision. Yes and filler is such a great way to describe Ronin. It's a game on a spreadsheet. The most excitement about the game from team ninja are them talking about sales projects: automaton-media.com/en/news/rise-of-the-ronin-aims-high-with-5-million-plus-sales-target/
@@Dragon-jo6wf Then why argue for something you haven’t even played lol. Dumbass take.
@@TheElectricUnderground them not programming around your characters full movement pisses me off to no end, it's lazy game design. Even if the combat was rock solid that's a whole diemension that is not utilized. I wonder if theres a way to get in contact with this studio so i don't have to cry about it in someones comment section.
Great review, this really was the right channel to review this game ;)
Very cool that you were managed to put a review out this soon after the game's release.
I definitely agree about the point of needing some more sex appeal in the game. I'm under the impression that Koei Tecmo actually sees the value in this, so maybe this is somewhat Sony's fault.
Also, regarding Stellar Blade… it looks like a Soulslike, it feels like a Soulslike… but it might actually be a character action game?? Really interested to hear you break that down. There is really… not much that it does which doesn’t exist in character action. I’m sure you’ll hate the Sekiro parry, but I wonder how you’ll feel about literally everything else, and whether you feel like it’s useful, fun, or possible to ignore the parry. Might be kind of a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Saying that directors aren't involved in the minutiae of mechanical design in these games seems like a stretch. What did you base that on?
On their games sucking when they leave the company
are you gonna review dragon’s dogma 2? somewhere in all that open world bloat is a really good action game imo (much like the first one)
you're 100% correct with the opening
ive never had the same respect for them after the original xbox ninja gaidens
those games were on another level...
strangers was the only recent title i tried and really only because of the multiplayer and how cool the mc was
I miss NG, and its great girls, so much
But butter spread too thin is delicious
Not if the toast is dry :-)
Bilbo would disagree
No
Handling multiple enemies at once is also fundamentally stronger here than it was in Nioh 1 and 2 - slightly behind FF Origin(which handles it best out of their recent catalogue). The real "issue" is that it's tools tied behind longer open world progression.
Hit stuns follow a string of hit check/confirms, as opposed to a constant. Similar to strings in DoA, Tekken, and VF. As an example the counterspark attack, advancing attack, and charge attacks provide larger hit stun of frame advantage on hit, to strike again(i.e. with martial skills) uninterrupted - to check for advantage again.
Basically the game wants you to pay closer attention to the defensive state of enemies and build frame advantages. You can strike the enemy and get frame advantage and then walk around to their back, and get free reign creating whiffs of red attacks instead of it being a parryfest. Enemy strings have gaps in them that you can side walk and evade around, similar to how you would do it in DoA/VF/Tekken.
There are multiple different types of dashes and dodges, unfortunately again some of them come later through new stances. You'll be able to walk circles around all enemy types and create constant whiffs. So often times, countersparking an enemy is less rewarding than make them whiff air as you side step them.
Perhaps the biggest issue you have is the slower progression pace to get the tools you need. The game you want is in here, though - later you can also play the game as a mission based game instead of through open world.
He hasn't mentioned FF Origin at all in his channel has he? I feel like that game is treated like a meme because of the story's presentation but the gameplay in that for me is a few steps behind Nioh 2 to be specific (I like Nioh 2 more than 1), and miles ahead of Wo Long. Its been a hot topic on this channel too, but I'd like to see his thoughts on the soul shield mechanic and how he feels abt it compared to other parry mechanics in other games
@@battousaix4263 I don't think he's mentioned FF Origin at all, but who knows. And I agree with you, Origin is treated like a meme and totally misunderstood as a game on gameplay terms and story, there's just something up with Team Ninja's western marketing and it reminds me of mid 2000s Sega with how VF was handled in the west here.
They don't seem to put their best foot forward, and people are left in the dark on what exactly the design goals of their games even are. People can't even describe their games without naming some other game from another company, which just invites preconceived notions.
When you're learning a new language you aren't trying to translate it to your native language in your head, you are instead taking the new words, concepts, grammar and understanding the meaning and message that's being conveyed with them.
Like I mean, counterspark for example should've made that clear. It has functions as a parry but it's not just a parry, it's an attack, too, some of them have high guard breaking capabilities, and it provides a larger hit stun than basic square. Even oxtail blade jumping counterspark is a minor flying swallow. It's not called parry for a reason.
And we as players end up having to just put faith in it and continue to play TN games pas the "finish line", because Team Ninja's bag doesn't surface until you're on the road to trying to reach mastery, have all of the tools and time sets in.
Even Ninja Gaiden 2 back when it came out was misunderstood, as it doesn't play the same way that black/sigma does.
Lastly, yeah I think FF origin is also one of their best, along with Nioh 2 and NG1/2/RE. Ronin is the in the mix, but it's too early to tell, and the open world might be in a lot of people's way unfortunately and I definitely understand that.
@@orangemegaslideYea I'll definitely have to look into trying out Ronin for myself before I make any assumptions. But 100 percent agree with you that FF Origin is up there with their most fun games.
I am curious, did you like Wo Long?
@@bobitogre I thought Wo Long was a decent enough game in general, but I think it's probably one of Team Ninja's weakest action games they've ever made. I'd put it at their low tier, but their low tier is already a cut above so many others, anyway.
The gameplay itself felt too unstable.
As many of the action game fundamentals were locked behind boss drops(none in the skill trees, the juice with s and whatnot) or chance martial arts until 5*. No omnidirectional guard, the jumping 'windpath'/leapfrog was unstable, etc. Enemies wildly falling out of juggles, failing to be knocked over if there was the slightest incline, etc.
I'm not a stranger to the game, I've done a level 1 naked playthrough and such. So I was constantly questioning my own precision, as you get heavily punished if you playing under those conditions, but I wanted to try and hone my game.
I'll revisit it again some day with fresh eyes though. Sometimes you legit just have to play other things and recontextualize some things and have a renewed perspective. I just ain't ready to appreciate the game all that much at the moment, I go back and forth.
@@orangemegaslide Wo Long feels like it had to rush out to meet Koei Tecmo higher ups financial expectations for 2023. I especially feel this after playing Rise of the Ronin. The Fighting styles, enemy camps, enemy elites, enemy morale all feel like stuff Wo long wanted to do but didn't have time to.
Don't think I missed that hot screen transition at 24:38, Mark. 👌
Its a shame people who review Rise of the Ronin cant do so without comparing it to a list of other games and not on its own merits
Some piece of art are important not just because of their own merits, but also by how people review and compare them. Context is almost as important as the content itself. This review has done a tremendous job at explaining the context by comparing it with other games. This is one of the best review you can expect to see. There's a already a sea of bland game review that will only review the game itself without explaining context.
You know, I never really thought about it, but you bring up a great point about jailing the player. You can easily kite enemies in Elden Ring's open world or force them into their de-aggro state by running backwards far enough and it's sort of a get-out-of-jail-free card(easily abused in Sekiro especially where every enemy has a 5 second memory). The best combat moments in those games happen in tighter spaces where you're forced to manage the situation, no matter how the big the odds are stacked against you. I've never played a souls game as an archer or spell caster because those games aren't fun unless you're up close and personal with the old sword and board. Only time I think it works is when the game is specifically designed to be played that way like Remnant From the Ashes.
Happy to see this reviewed. I knew you wouldn't love it , but I like to see your thorough takes on these more mainstream games. I love Nioh so much, and its so frustrating that post-Itagaki Team Ninja, as extremely talented as they are, are catering to trends and not their own skill set. I'm all for a new IP, but really if they could just put out a lean action game, I feel even the reviewers would like it more than this, it surely would kill Sifu in gameplay. Even Nioh hasn't fully capitalized on its best attributes yet for me. If Nioh 3 got rid of the loot and simplified the RPG systems... I guess I want Ninja Gaiden 4.
Borderlands 3 was like that too, you can always back off and snipe away as you move through the level but once you hit the main boss it locks you in.
Maybe Team Ninja need a big flop before they bring back what their core demographic wants
but their whole production pipeline is "spread thin" so that they make sure no big flop ever happens
cant lose much if you dont commit much
But their souls like keep succeeding, even Wo Long was a huge success. I'm sick of playing Souls like.. every fucking action game is now a souls like..
Their core demographic want these games, their core demographic are massive fans of nioh 2, wo long, stranger of paradise and RotR
Yeah I am wondering about that as well. Because the poison of their approach right now is that the games they are making are definitely watered down, but they are also selling and reviewing okay. Nothing amazing, but def safe and stable. And often its not outright failure that is the enemy of great art, but mild success ha. So Team Ninja have gone from a wild and risky game design studio to a steady and boring one.
Such a great review not just covering this games faults but touching on why so many of these games now, like FromSoft stuff, are saturated with boring mechanics like obsession with parries and incredibly annoying super armor / lack of meaningful hitstun.
Thank you very much for this in-depth review. i'm conflicted about this game, usually i buy all of the Team-Ninja games (of this genre), but i haven't bought this one, but your review made me want to give it a try despite all of its flaws you mentioned, so i think i'll wait for a lower price to give it a try.
Also at 30:38- i didn't buy DOA 6 because of the egregious pricing policy on the previous episode, it didn't even crossed my mind to buy this one because of it. This has nothing to do with the gameplay nor chara designs (and i don't think i'm the only person in this case).
I love the immersion of open world games but the combat in them is usually too easy or not good, and the loot progression is usually minimal at best. The main things I look for in games are an interesting and immersive world, good challenging combat, and a bunch of good loot and gear options preferably with meaningful stats. Rise of the Ronin has managed to be super immersive with good and challenging combat and a bunch of loot. I can't disagree with your points, but i really wish we had more games like RotR and of course Elden Ring.
The modern bland gamer here
Wow, this was weird. I actually agree with the premise of the video, but there are so many little things you get wrong that I end up disagreeing with 90% of the actual content. I think the main issue is that you kind of identify a real problem (good), then reach a surface level conclusion by looking at it from just one angle and leapfrogging to the next. Either that or you explain things poorly imo. Let me show you what I mean:
So in Chapter 2, you more or less make the point that "action focused" games do not fit with Open-World structure because they break up the intensity of the core gameplay loop/formula. Now, following this you state that this doesn't really apply to Elden Ring because action is not the only thing it focuses on (more on this later) but then you also say here: 10:13 that "the problem with a lot of modern action games". Essentially, the distinction you seem to be making on whether its okay for an action game to have downtime/an open world is whether the downtime is well made and fun to engage with. So then, naturally, the problem isn't actually that 'Open World Dilutes Combat' but 'make all parts of the game good and synergistic'.
I'm also going to go ahead and criticize something you don't explicitly say but I think exists in the subtext of this video (and also your Game Density video, which I watched for better context) and that's this idea that Team Ninja games, specifically Nioh/Wo Long/etc (actually I also disagree with grouping Ninja Gaiden and Nioh together in terms of design language and goals, maybe more on that later) are uniquely action-focused amongst Souls and other soulslikes because they 'trim the fat' as it were. They aren't.
Imagine you have two hotels: Hotel A just offers lodgings and room service, that's it. Hotel B offers lodgings, room service, a bar, a spa, a pool, a movie theater, and so many amenities that you'll often find people visiting it without even booking rooms, but the rooms are still just as good as Hotel A. In this scenario, Hotel A doesn't really get to cope by saying "Oh we're a Room-focused hotel guys, look Hotel B has a punch of patrons that don't even care about the staying the night. You come to Hotel A, you come for the lodgings so yeah we're unique in that sense."
If you run through a Souls game without engaging with the exploration (which is a valid way to experience them) it offers just as much 'gameplay density' as Nioh - if not more since Nioh's loading screens and mission selection between levels are longer than the time it takes to run/ride between encounters in souls. Yes, even Elden Ring (barring some specific sections). Being excellent in multiple areas or offering alternative ways to play does not detract or devalue the central experience, which in Fromsoft games is absolutely the combat. Again, that would be like saying "MGR isn't action focused because a lot of people just care about the music."
Bringing it back to open worlds, like I said initially, I actually agree with the premise of the video. I think there is something lost if you have a Team Ninja soulslike where all the combat encounters are super spaced out without much quality gameplay to fill the gaps, but that's because of the [without much quality gameplay to fill the gaps] not the [combat encounters are super spaced out] part, because Nioh isn't Rise of the Ronin so they deserve to change the identity of the game even if they are the same developer (similarly to how I don't mind Sekiro dropping Souls' buildcraft because it isn't Dark Souls 3.5), but the reason is because - as you point out - the out of combat gameplay isn't very engaging and it ends up being just worse Nioh. I'm not going to give you a hard time about some of the sentiments expressed in your Gaming Density video because it's 3 years old and I'm just going to assume you've moderated some of the absurd stances there (e.g. "the point of downtime in games is primarily to stretch the runtime"), but I can see those sentiments rearing their heads a bit in this video.
Now a lot of the other points in the video are just a case of taking the audience's agreement for granted without bothering to justify anything.
Why exactly is it a problem that you can snipe patiently in MGSV (which, by the way, you neglected to mention the other myriad downsides of that approach being prohibitively difficult if your plan is to fulton the enemies, a core mechanic of the game, or getting shelled, or getting mortared, or helicopters, etc)? Don't know.
12:25 "If you have a combat focused game, and you have this sort of challenge of clearing out little villages in between the missions, how do you get the player to do that in a compact, combat focused way? You can't without locked in arenas." Yes you can, of course you can, just have them chase you effectively. The problem here is the execution (in RotR's case, bad AI design) not the concept. If the concern is that it messes with the specially crafted encounter design, then the ability to use guerilla tactics to outmaneuver an enemy in a position of strength is a feature not a bug, and furhtermore makes it so that the times when _you_ are the one being outmaneuvered position-wise are a nice change of pace and more engaging due to the juxtaposition. That would be like bemoaning the existence of stealth or ranged weapons in general in Nioh because it isn't melee combat.
At the end of this section, you basically say "Ronin's pacing sucks", which is perfectly fine to say, but the problems you outlined aren't the principles applied but the execution of them.
Your critique of the art is pretty spot on. Same with the controls.
And then we get to the parry section, and while there _is_ a lot to unpack, I'll try to be more brief. You essentially say "footsies + high risk parry is better" which... I mean, the obvious rebuttal to that would be Sekiro's Deflect and Ronin's Counterspark aren't the same thing and don't serve the same purpose. You say yourself that Counterspark stops enemy strings, which isn't really true but even if it was, then of course it would be high risk, it stops strings and Sekiro's deflect doesn't. In reality, Counterspark is more analogous to the Mikiri Counter or Stomp in Sekiro since both hard-stagger on the enemy's combo finisher and you are punished for mistiming. Deflect takes more of the same role as dodging and blocking in Ronin.
To sum it up, Sekiro has [Block] and [Deflect] on the same button with a dedicated [High-Risk Parry] on a different button, while Ronin has [Deflect] and [High-Risk Parry] on the same button with a dedicated [Block] on a different button. They're different systems which have different dynamics, but neither inherently has more decision making or is "better" conceptually from where I'm standing.
The real meat of your argument though comes in 26:35 "...it mitigates the importance of spacing and movement, of fundamental combat"
...What? You just throw this out there and truck on as though its self evident; since when is spacing and movement synonymous with 'fundamental combat'? It's a big part of it sure, but it's no more a part of it than close-quarters parrying, reversals and counter-attacking. Maybe I'm misinterpreting and what you're actually saying is that 'making parry-combat king' upsets the balance between infighting and outfighting gameplay, but then by that token there's no way you can single out parrying for this because before Sekiro released every Soulslike, especially Nioh, was _heavily_ dodge-focused with only a small minority of attacks being parriable, and honestly that's fine. It's fine for a game to focus on one or the other. The reason a game like Sekiro is parry-focused is because the combat fantasy is based on "clashing swords". I don't really get where this footsies-good, parry-bad dichotomy stems from.
Well I can hazard a guess, which I'll use to end this post. No offense dude, genuinely, but from the two videos I've seen from you, you seem to have a compulsion to uncharitably characterize things and systems that you personally just don't have an affinity for as somehow fundamentally or conceptually flawed when it's actually just not your cup of tea. While yeah, it sucks when studios you like go in directions you don't (I personally love Ninja Gaiden to death, I don't like Nioh really) it's okay to admit that the issue you have may be one of incompatibility.
Otherwise, I actually liked the video more or less. Reminds me of old anime CZcams, for better and for worse.
"since when is spacing and movement synonymous with 'fundamental combat'? It's a big part of it sure, but it's no more a part of it than close-quarters parrying, reversals and counter-attacking" There's a couple of things i'd call fundamental to fighting and one of those is definitely movement (spacing kind of falls under this). Parries and counters are individual techniques which can be important of course but as fundamental as movement/spacing? lmao. For what it's worth i've trained and competed in combat sports for 8 years now (and recently started teaching MMA and kickboxing). This is the same for fighting games by the way and I don't see why it would be different for action games.
@@dnis4540 Combat sports are real life, and due to real life human limitations it is optimal to rely on movement and spacing more than most other things, but this isn't real life. In a vacuum though? Not at all. Perfect movement vs perfect counters, the latter wins every time, it's just not practical irl.
"This is the same for fighting games by the way and I don't see why it would be different for action games."
Probably because action games aren't based on the same fantasy and source material as fighting games. Action games draw from the dynamics of action/kung-fu movies and anime where things like patience and... spacing I guess are secondary to more active forms of defense, and historically action games reflect this. Fighting games on the other hand are based on real life combat sports.
Also, technically speaking, the only thing truly fundamental (i.e. necessary) to combat is attacking.
@@S.A.O.D.A "Action games draw from the dynamics of action/kung-fu movies and anime where things like patience and... spacing I guess are secondary to more active forms of defense"
Bro that is all imaginary and isn't worth dicussing. Might as well call emoting over someones corpse after winning a fundamental part of combat. By the way, actions games like ninja gaiden have much more in common with fighting games than you seem to think.
@@S.A.O.D.A "Perfect movement vs perfect counters, the latter wins every time, it's just not practical irl."
Also this is all la-la talk. What are you even saying here? There is no perfect movement or perfect counters, things like that aren't black or white.
@@dnis4540 "Bro that is all imaginary"
...
great video
what do you think about urban reign?
That right arm doing a lot of work in this review.
I beat NG2 on Master Ninja difficulty so when I played Dark Souls for the first time I didn't get what all the fuss was about
I mean if you played NG2 MN most games are gonna seem easy after that point
@@billyboleson2830 lol indeed, it took over 100 hours, still has incredible gameplay
That's because souls is not a difficult game but it was approachable while being slightly challenging which was a breath of fresh air in the year it came out. Funny thing is it was never about the difficulty, the souls games to me are a successful attempt at a 3D metroidvania. I never got why action game fans seethe so much around the souls series aside from maybe that no one is making new classic style action games, while the souls genre is thriving. To me that isn't a problem because I like them, but I can see why action game fans complain about it.
@@MrYTPfan123souls games are overall better than any action games like DMC, bayonetta or ninja gaiden tbh, only thing they did better than souls games is the combat but yeah that's all about it
@@hare75 That's why I like Nioh a lot
Funny you say that about Kojima because starting with Peace Walker then going into Metal Gear Solid V and then finally culminating in Death Stranding, his team makes some of the best mechanically put together games out there.
Honestly I like mgs3s gameplay more then 5s
30:31 well if that doesn't just sum up modern games style in general.
The open world commentary was good, I was feeling such ruminations myself playing Dragons Dogma 2 and really missing that more condensed linear dungeon crawl that was in Dark Arisen expansion to the first game. I love open world exploration and finding things in the map, but that's a one time event and you can't get that sense of discovery on a second playthrough. So going back just for the gameplay bits and it becomes a slog. Thats why despite normally getting at least 3 playthroughs of other fromsoft games I got like halfway through a second play of Elden Ring and had to drop it, its just too much filler in between.
you are so dang right about team ninja just... getting fuckin boring and lame. i dont think ive enjoyed one since nioh 2 and even then it feels like theyve been struggling ever since NG2.. yeugh sad and lame indeed.
ROR is nothing like Sekiro. It's better for it. Completely disagree with your assessment of this game. It's fantastic
This was a terrible review and was rushed out so he could farm youtube clicks while whining about Ninja gaiden, dead on Arrival, and open world...
haha yeah sure then you will say wo long is nothing like sekiro or nioh is nothing like dark souls, admit that team ninja is just waiting to see the next fromsoft game to copy it
I really like Ronin and have 40+ hours so far but I hear what you're saying. I'm also not an expert with Team Ninja combat. Ronin is definitely catered towards those who may not have played TN games in the past. That being said, Ronin made me realize that I've been sleeping on TN for far too long and I have every intention of going back and playing their games I missed out on. It doesn't feel like a Souls title to me at all though, it's just a typical open world game with an interesting setting and really fun combat with a ton of options.
Great review and breakdown of the game design of Rise. Also "Zelda for adults" is exactly how I described Dark Souls and even Demons Souls when they first released.
Interesting take on the evolution or de-evolution of team ninja over the years. I had bad feelings about Team Ninja going open world, as I doubted theyd provide meaningful filler between the main encounters. Also like you said, the ability to chip away, snipe at enemies kills that tight combat of more linear combat focused games that are successful.
Wo Long was a real revival for Team Ninja, for me, since the OG NG games. I felt like diluting that style with a more open version wouldnt be great. Loved Nioh, AT FIRST. Got about 1/2 way through it and stopped because it just felt too recycled, repetitive for me by that point. I HATED the inventory system and having to manage that more than playing the fucking game. It was a mix of factors that caused me to stop playing. Great to see Team Ninja come back strong with Wo Long, but this one does look questionable.
Cool review, always down to hear you talk action games. I kind of liked Nioh but this game put me off from the start. Just seems like a worse Nioh with a bunch of stuff other teams do much better crammed in for filler.
I'm interested to see you talk about Stellar Blade. I think the demo is pretty solid but the game also seems to have a lot of things you tend to dislike.
It is sad to see Team Ninja making the same mistakes as Fromsoft. In short, they want to make their games more popular, so they make it open world. Yet, both for the Soulslike games as well as for the more combat focussed Team Ninja games this doesn't really fit for the type of game. You have described the problems with this for the new Rise of the Ronin game very well in the video. In addition to the actual gameplay (which is the combat) they had to add these little mini quests in order to give the open world setting an actual meaning (to send the player to different locations on the map). And nobody wants this type of game. At least, nobody who enjoyed the previous games Nioh or Wo Long.
Fromsoft did not even do this in their open world epos Elden Ring. This game has a huge map and over 160 bosses, but in order to beat the game you never need to see all of this. You never have to go in one of the side dungeons and only 12 (out of 165) bosses in total have to be defeated. So quite the opposite to bother the player with Assassin's Creed like quest markers spread over the whole map. But still not justifying why the game needs to be open world in the first place? Dark Souls is such an immersive experience, because it is NOT open world. It has the structure of a Metroidvania game where one needs to make progress through 'confined' levels by fighting enemies or to find other strategies to make ones way to the next checkpoint (bonfire). You are right that these games are not combat focussed games (like Team Ninja games), but they are like fast paced strategy games with RPG elements and a VERY simple combat mechanic.
And another aspect that you mentioned in the video I can only underline, because it worries me, too: the fact that many games now adapt the parry focussed combat or even make it the only viable way to fight against enemies and bosses. It is in Rise of the Ronin, in Lies of P (which I like very much as a good Soulslike game, in spite of this) and in the upcoming Stellar Blade game (as far as I have seen). But other tactics like positioning or even being able to just block an attacks with a shield is not a part of the spectrum anymore. This makes combat very one dimensional, because it is limited to pressing circle at the right time. And this is combined, of course, with memorising boss moves before one can actually start to fight them. And (not sure if you mentioned this in the video or if I have seen this elsewhere?) the fact that it is not possible to interrupt enemies attacks with a counterattack, because they get hyperarmour with certain attacks, is a very poor mechanic which I hope will be removed from action RPG games. It takes away a lot of the momentum of the fight, forcing one to play passively and never being able to dictate the pace of the fight oneself. Because with this hyperarmour mechanic one can only reliably avoid damage when waiting for the enemy to do an attack first and then counter this. A similar problem now also plagues Fromsoft Soulslike games: you initiate an attack, but the boss input reads it and responds with an unreactable (because you are stuck in an animation) counterattack.
This is every devs problem, not fromsoftware
Fromsoft succeeded all the designs like world building or exploration while other devs failed
You are one of those heretics that prefer the "bygone era" designs !? How dare you ?! ............................. :)
Your complaints of this game are the same complaints I have with Dragon's Dogma 2. The game is about fighting monsters and nearly all of the main and secondary quests are about going from point A to point B and not interacting with the core systems.
its not just about fighting monsters its about the experience of going on an adventure which is why the game strictly limits fast travel
@Lin_Eileen
It sucks. It would be better as a level based game
@magicjohnson3121 idk cause Dragons Dogma has always been like that though. It's got its Capcom combat elemental flare sure but its not trying to be an action game in the same vein as DMC or Bayo. Its combat was specifically designed for open world in mind
@TheAnimatedGamer
“It was designed with open world in mind” I don’t understand this. What could you do in an open world level (specifically Dragons Dogma) that you couldn’t do in a level based game? You could remove the open world and keep the mission quest levels and the game would be better for it.
Yeah I looked at Dragon's Dogma 2 footage and thought, "why is everyone making the same game right now?" I am very curious to see how the sales of ronin turn out. The game has basically no buzz from anyone at this point ha. And I get why, it's just so cookie cutter and boring, I'm not sure what people could even get excited about.
The interesting thing comparing Ninja Gaiden's provocate character design with stellar blades is that NG feels like it fits with the game whilst stellar blades looks cringe and so out of place with the rest of the game. Ryu's design still is iconic, and whilst i find Rachel's a little gratuitous, it matches a general asthetic (black leather armor, some exposed areas, emblishments on the clothes etc.) Even with ayane's gear aswell. Stellar blade just looks so derivivative of some anime aesthetic character design that so many games seem to add that i find grinds against the art style of the rest fo the game.
I'm so tired of these bloated souls wannabes. I just want linear mission based, arcade style action games to come back.
I have been waiting for Ninja Gaiden 4 for 10 years.
Gotta play indie games. I think this is why bigger compabies are ripping off souls games, bc the other stuff is being done by indies
@@notnoaintno5134most of the indie games are ripping off souls too
It was interesting that the review didn't touch on the level-up curve, and just how much the inclusion of an overall player level breaks the combat system. It's absurd how fast you become OP if you focus on completing side quests, and it upends everything else. Even as someone who was willing to slog through the open-world to get to the combat, when I did get into those more interesting "jailed" battles or boss fights I often had very little impetus to give it 100%. I played on Hard, and in the early game the difficulty felt good, landing somewhere around where Lie of P did, in that it was challenging enough to make me sweat a bit here and there, but if I focused I would succeed. Yet, I soon found that even being 4-5 levels above the recommended level for the Quest meant I could lazily soak up tons of damage, get in the occasional good parry/counter, and succeed on my first try in battles that were clearly supposed to be much more challenging.
The man trapped inside the CRT TV speaks the truth.
Team Ninja has been losing their protagonism in gaming for a while now, even amongst the Eastern devs. They aren't bad per say, however they haven't made anything exceptional or unique in a long time. It's not a surprise Team Ninja isn't a name many think of when talking about big eastern game developers anymore.
While I agree with your critiques of how the open world messes with the combat design, I do think that it really adds to the "fantasy" of being this traveling samurai cleaning up Japan. Clearing out outposts has an obvious, visible, permanent impact on the world, and I think that the highly compact nature of the map (at least the early parts, where I'm at now) mean that I'm only SECONDS away from the next map marker to clear off. It's easy to sink into this rhythm and get an almost "Power Washer Simulator" groove, haha
But again, I do completely agree that it comes at the cost of tightness in the combat encounters. I'm glad Rise of Ronin exists, but I hope that this isn't the template for all Team Ninja games going forward.
Honestly i will NEVER understand why Team Ninja doesn't replicate the success they had whit Ninja Gaiden 1.
Semi-linear world whit a satisfying combat where you are a powerhouse BUT can easily get killed.
It genuinely feels they lost their identity.
Nina Gaiden 2 is better imo, I prefer the non stop action in it.
Because all those people left the company lol
@@billyboleson2830Acting like Devil's Turd was any better? The game doesn't even work