Reading Land - the pitfalls of permaculture and how to avoid them
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- čas přidán 7. 11. 2022
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Reading land is an essential first step to understanding and working with landscapes. When we miss this critical step the designs that we create are out of touch and rarely achieve the desired results. The permaculture movement has much to offer but also some serious shortcomings - firstly that it does not adequately prepare people to read land. Because of this permaculture projects often times fail to achieve meaningful results, and in the worst cases even mislead people and cause harm to their landscapes.
Learn about the pitfalls of permaculture and how to avoid them, by starting with awareness of nature and reading land. This video is from Zach Weiss' presentation at the Verge Permaculture Design Conference.
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I think being married to anything will have its pitfalls. I love being able to pull from the brilliance of it all. Sepp is great for water, bill for permaculture, Allen and John for regenerative practice, Elaine on soil biology. So grateful to alllll of the brilliant people out there doing something
I like Dr. Christine Jones for maybe more accurate look at soil microbiology but as someone who is not a soil scientist I'm not qualified to know for sure who is right and Elaine certainly has good practical knowledge even if there might be theory flaws. There is indeed a lot to learn from many different people.
This series of 4 lectures was really inspiring for me and my very limited anecdote supports the idea that combining many different families of plants gives nice results. czcams.com/play/PL226RERzCnaSa0e_ikme2GuEfRsW2oIS9.html
Agreed! Would also add Richard Perkins to that list for design and practice.
plus Nicole Masters on wormcasts n fungal matters 🌳🕊💚
I would add Ernst Götsch to the list as well...
I understand where you come from, and you make very good points. It is true that only theory does cripple, but theory is valuable to understand our observations, our context. Understanding the water cycle, the carbon cycle, the way trees pump water and retain the water table with their roots, how north or south facing slope influence the design process is very valuable when observing nature and designing solutions. Someone who understands these things will be a better designer when on the land, observing and learning from nature to grow our understanding further. Sadly, you represent permaculture as if it was a monolithic way of thinking and doing things. It's not. You talk about using recipes. Many of us work really hard to make sure our clients and students understand that everything is contextual and that there are no simple recipes to success, no silver bullets. Is everyone working this way in permaculture? No, sadly. Do these practitioners and designers working in the way you describe represent a large part of the movement ? Probably. But let's not throw the baby with the bath water. ;) The design science part and the awareness art part of the process are both important. There is knowledge, understanding and practice behind putting any solution in place, whether they be pertaining to water retention, ecological enterprise or food production. The idea is to integrate both visions and work towards our regenerative goals. I see the value in what you are sharing with Water Stories. What if a number of the people taking the class do "bad work", will this disqualify the work you are doing and what all the other students are doing. Certainly not. We can address the problems without fallowing that negative path, let's make each other grow. For me, permaculture is about integration and evolution. Every time I use the knowledge and wisdom shared by Bill, Sepp or other teachers in doing the work, all of it is part of my permaculture toolbox. Some of it is contradictory, and I use critical thinking to find or create the most appropriate solution. That's permaculture to me, to my clients and to my students. Take care !
Interesting discussion. What you describe as 'permaculture', Zach, does not sound like permaculture to me, an active certified permaculture designer/implimenter. As in your description of a rubber-lined water tank. such a tank is not stopping, slowing or spreading water, as I was taught and what is talked about in the designer's manual by Mollison. I see mis-interpretation of permaculture all the time by well-meaning but ignorant people, many who think taking a 72 hour class makes them a master designer, also many people who seem to be in a rush. Only by much time spent observing nature and learning to read land can one make designs harmonious and complimentary to the nature we seek to assist. Just as you say. And that's only the first of many principles leading to a beneficial design. Thank you Zach, for all you do and for making your work available to so many.
15 years in, I am still refining the design for my property. Fly by night design damages the movement. I find that emulating successful projects is one of the best teaching methods. Thanks to all that share on youtube, and hopefully, we will have more local projects to learn from in the future.
Wow, shots fired Zach lol, you're certainly going to piss off a lot of permaculturalists but I suppose that's what your marketing department wanted, Sepp certainly sold way more copies of his book thanks to the addition of the word permaculture, it's certainly why I bought his book, that being said totally agree with more practice and less theory, it's one of the reason I didn't take your water stories course as there is no practical component and I'm a bit theoried out by all the other courses I've done, love the work, keep it up and when you have a practical hands on course I'll be your first student as long as you adjust your price to the poorer people living in African countries like South Africa with our volatile exchange rate;)
This comment really made me smile. Firstly the idea that we have a marketing department, and also that if we did that they would have any say whatsoever in what I say. I've learned from my mentors (Sepp and Rajendra) to speak my truth to the best of my abilities without being concerned about who it might anger or offend. I certainly didn't set off with the intention to offend anyone, the conference organizers asked me to speak about how swales are not a silver bullet, and I took it upon myself to expand that to many of the issues within the permaculture movement that have bothered me for years. I'm hoping this will really strengthen people's efforts and results, by gaining some new perspective and seeing some of the areas of weakness within permaculture.
Our Core Course is actually mostly practical, and pretty light on theory. Yes it's an online course, but it mostly happens at home through guided exercises and projects for each module. I've always turned down opportunities for online teaching until we found a way to make ours very practical and hands on. This course will also be a prerequisite for any future in person and more advanced training opportunities. We also have a global equity scholarship to provide the course at an equitable rate around the world. Thank you for your comment and support!
I mean, it seems like he cherry picked the worst cases (if they are even true--not sure who puts up 20k for a design). It is good advice to dig a test pit. But you can learn a lot from understanding geomorphology, being able to do a basic soil structure/texture analysis and talking to people. You gotta look at the land, but to say permaculturalists are all desk jockies is a gross caricature of a community of practice that does a ton of good work.
Geoff Lawton and John Dennis Liu do read the landscape and teach us to teach others how to design water systems to recharge the ground water.
Like Geoff says, once you learn to read the land, you will never see it any other way.
Perhaps you had mental fatigue when you read the Designer's Manual ?
Because almost every point you think is a pitfall is on the contrary a foundational pillar of Permaculture. I will list them here, in a more orderly fashion :
-Design science / awareness art,Intuitive manifestation. Listen to Geoff Lawton or even David Holmgren talk about how meditative is the observation of nature in permaculture design. Please take 4 minutes to learn this. They teach this to all their student. It is one of the key you missed of the Observation phase in Permaculture. Geoff Lawton explictly talks of a "meditative" state.
-Contour design is only taught as one method to a first approach of a landscape, it's just a hanger in the wardrobe (a technique) nothing more. So yes it is "one" language of the land. You don't seem quite familiar with Permaculture actually, did you really take a good PDC? Did you read the Designer's Manual with a rested and clear mind? (writing "WTF?!?!?!" in your presentation seems quite disrespectful).
-Silver bulllets like hugelcultur or swales are not taught as magical solutions at all in a decent PDC.
-Storing water high is just a guideline, it is far from a general rule. Obviously, I'd say, for any decent permaculture designer.
-Designers vs practionners : it is obvious that a good design is the one that is grounded in practice. You may have had contacts with bad/beginner designers. All good permaculture designers are farmers or gardeners themselves. I don't know why you would even mention such a basic thing like if it was not obvious for all good designers that practice is important. On your other point on this subject, Permaculture was born from the amazing experience Bill Mollison had had from the field as a naturalist. Did you know that ? do you know how many projects Bill was involved into ? nope you don't seem to be aware of his art.
Then in your presentation you go over points like you are introducing them as new "wow" guidelines, but they all are tackled in detailed by Permaculture (micro climates, sustainability (input/ouput), etc.).
Your video is a Permaculture hating one, with a lot of condescension. Too bad you say you want to help the world when you are actually only talking against the gardening revolution.
He accepts he hasn't read the manual! The irony!
Great presentation. Personally I'm not sure that permaculture misleads. I think it depends on who you are listening to, reading, and learning from. Fortunately I was exposed to permaculture as an ethical design system rather than a list of things. Reading the landscape, small and slow solutions, feedback from unintended consequences: all of these were taught to me. Once I had that, I never was tempted to rattle off ideas of what other people should do. I haven't had many clients over the years and that's fine. I lose them when I suggest we (with an emphasis on THEY) need to spend the time reading the landscape, conducting a thorough site analysis, and considering what they actually want along with what the land may or may not support. I always see my job as a person who supports the process, not a person who makes them a design for a thousand euros and walks away. I have to help them learn the basics so they can continue the active observation and incorporation of feedback.
This is not as sellable as beautiful designs on paper or 3D mockups. Little did I know there are people who will spend tens of thousands of euros for ungrounded design....
You are the norm. I know only a couple people locally who throw techniques at problems. Most use it as a process and methodology rooted in a shared ethic and dependent on what the land actually needs.
If these observations were put into Mollison/ Lawton speak the title might be , ' How to Avoid Type 1 Errors in Permaculture Design.'
Yes I think it's part client and mostly inexperience practitioner. A plastic liner is fairly idiot proof (though it doesn't actually work well over time) and if you're not confident in your abilities to read the land and understand the earth it's a lot easier to just use some plastic and feel more assured that it will (somewhat) work.
Okay, wait a minute - I don't know who said "contours are the language of the landscape" but I'm betting it wasn't Geoff Lawton. Making swales on contour has allowed me to direct water over the part of my land that was badly in need of it.
Your stories about "permaculturists" saying stupid things and acting blindly does not ring true of any of the permaculturists I know.
Sepp is a master of observation, as is Geoff. I really think that comparisons as to the efficacy of one vs. the efficacy of the other are counterproductive - at best.
Reading the land is a huge part of permaculture. Everything I've learned from it has encouraged me to find out more about my planet, and how it works. I've watched Water Stories videos, and I appreciate what I've learned from them too. They don't take anything away from permaculture, and vice versa.
P.S. Part of my land is on a North facing slope. It's crazy to say that an anonymous "big fancy permaculture" guy teaches that land isn't valuable if it's on a north facing slope - or even that it is inferior if it faces north. The examples you brought up sound utterly contrary to permaculture in general, and I question your motivation for making this video.
Caveat: I only listened to 16 and a half minutes of this and that was long enough.
When you spoke about plastic liner ponds by practioners, my mind went straight to the consumer. "I want a pond 10ft deep and this size". The ground will dictate the depth. The keyed dam, what the underground water flow is flowing "on" and how deep that impervious layer is. You are doing great work!
That’s why The Scale of Permanence and Keyline design from PA Yeoman’s lessons is paramount for Permaculture proyects, which, by the way, is an open tool box, not a close system even if ecosystemic.
A "tool box" is the best way to put it.
I like your take and opinion based on your experience which i find simpatico. My only qualms with any of the info here center on Sepp himself. I was on a tour/ consult he did across several sites in Detroit where every recommendation he made was entirely inappropriate for the context he was asked to input on. One site was an urban veg farm dealing with water issues: he told them to dig a 2 meter deep moat around the entire perimeter and use the fill to make a 2 meter high berm--they could pump the water from the moat and plant the berm with their vegetables. The look on the farm managers face as it was translated was priceless, like "wtf is this dude talking about??". Another site was a small urban farm on an abandoned lot where he said they needed to dig a 2 meter deep crater garden with 2 meter berms rising above grade along the perimeter. The same baffled look was all over the farmers faces.
To add insult to injury, the organizers of this event alongside Sepp, rushed to rent equipment and build a crater garden behind a charter school. It was a massive failure-- didn't hold water, grew a ton of weeds and was abandoned due to its impracticality. For all I know they had to pay to demolish it as it was an eye sore.
It seemed he had a hammer and everywhere he saw a nail, similar to how Geoff Lawton seems to put a swale on every slope. I think it speaks to the weaknesses of the human mind and how easily we get stuck in our ways regardless of how "holistic" we tell ourselves we are being.
This is why I think the design process, drawing/drafting and allowing for time to pass while you make a plan is so valuable. It allows space and time to understand the site, how it will be used, what opportunities and limiting factors there are etc. Marry this with the time on site observing, listening, seeing in your minds eye, and taking action and, I've found, you have a robust, resilient, and effective process.
At the end, it's important to realize we are all fallible bipeds and we can only make the best decisions possible with the knowledge and experience we have at any given time. If we knew better, we'd do better.
Keep up the good work, it looks like a lot of fun.
I have seen many of Sepp's projects achieve incredible results, and some fall short of expectations. From what I've seen it's usually the project owner/manager that determines the success or failure of a project. I have seen incredible and beautiful examples of crater gardens, high berms, and moats. You can point someone in the right direction, but ultimately it's them that's driving the car. So if you point them in the right direction, but then they drive off the road into a ditch and total the car, is that your fault?
You have a lot of great points here, and one thing that is a big pet peeve of mine. I fail to understand how you can learn more about a landscape at a drafting table and from a plan. I see so much time and money put into this process, and sometimes designs result that are totally out of touch with the landscape. I believe that learning about the land is done on the land, not at the drafting table.
@@Water_Stories Fair points. I still was baffled that his only solutions were the ones he used in his unique context. Then again, this is what most of us do, we recommend what we know, even when it may not be appropriate. I've done it myself, although I do try and push myself to see things from my clients context, especially any aspects of the the site that would make any given practice more or less effective in the long run.
Perhaps you misunderstood my point about creating a plan. If the plan is done entirely at the drafting table or computer, then yes, it will always be disconnected from reality. At the same time, if you go and start building a bunch of permanent things without working through their placement, especially things like roads, ponds, buildings, fences, trees (cue scale of permanence), then it is very easy to create a dysfunctional layout, especially if there isn't enough protracted thought put into the long-term usage patterns of the site. Per my point about the failed crater garden--had they spent even one day looking at maps and the site, gaming out the long term use of the site, who would manage it, what budget there was, etc. they could have determined that the crater garden was going to be the wrong "fix". I have found time and again that using the 2D design process helps my clients think through what they *actually* want their life, and thus site, to be like long before they making any lasting changes, avoiding a lot of problems down the line. This is why I find the holsitic manegement practices so powerful. I've seen so many projects where a lot is done, but in the end, it doesn't work as well as it could have had a few hours, days, months etc. been taken to take some notes, measure, draw, flag out, rethink, and so on.
We have to learn to listen to the land, make relevant observations of the patterns, and then work from there. I also advocate that people make small changes and observe the feedback--plant a tree, put in a small garden, cut down a tree, do some minor water work--then see how the land responds, how you respond, and go from there. Anyone who claims they can look down at a map without seeing and feeling the land and make perfectly informed design decisions is either a liar or naive. But I would still argue you can learn a lot from maps, just make sure it is ground-truthed with reality before doing anything expensive or permanent. And vice versa.
@@inilegnam absolutely. I see too many people use the map as a crutch instead of an aid, so I lean in the opposite direction to try and get people to think more about it. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
@@inilegnam i pointed out something similar in another thread before reading this. Expertise and experience can cause tunnel vision. I have heard similar complaints about a lot of high profile designers, including Sepp. I agree you have to be out on the land, but that isnt enough. I rely heavily on studying ecology and on thinking. I think far more than I act, which can become its own problem. Alas, as you said, we are fallible.
I believe that what you are talking about are the pitfalls of badly taught, badly explained, badly understood permaculture, Zach. So it distresses me that you make such a blanket condemnation of the discipline without pointing this out. Mollison never started writing any theory of permaculture until he had practiced his ideas on the land for years, and that was preceeded by years of working and observing natural systems in the rainforests of Tasmania, which in turn led to his ideas about the possibility of designing complex, self-regulating systems.
Sadly, today many people teach permaculture as if it were a collection of their favorite techniques and strategies - yes, like swales or hugelkulture or whatever else they like from the permaculture tool kit - but IMHO, those teachers should be shunned by anyone who wants to understand complex natural systems and especially if they want to design regenerative and sustainable human habitat.
Some of us have more respect for not only the founder of the discipline, but for our students. I start teaching a permaculture design course by focusing on practical observational skills with all six senses, so my students can learn little by little how to read the landscape, as you are teaching in this video. Over the two years of the course that I´ve designed, we learn the concepts on which permaculture design science is based. I want my students to have a basic understanding of climate profiles, landscape profiles and life forms, as well as the interactions between the sun's energy, the atmosphere, the water, the geology and the living soil and how all of these amazing processes interact with living beings. We do not rush it. We observe, we get our hands dirty, we feel the wind and rain on our skins, we listen and we sniff. Since nobody is lucky enough nowadays to get this kind of a general education about the natural world, most students need to unlearn a lot of what they have been taught and re-learn what the reality of our miraculous biosphere is and does. This takes time and lots of hands-on work, both alone and in groups. I usually spend the first half of the course answering most of their questions with "I don´t give out recipes." True permaculture designers are artisans and each design is unique, just as each place/human/time has a unique combination of conditions as a context. I´m sure you appreciate this.
I have followed your work since you first started sharing it with videos and am now suggesting to my students that they watch and pay good attention to all of your videos. Of course, I always have them watch Sepp´s videos, as well. I teach in Spanish, so the Water Stories videos that have been dubbed in Spanish are a treasure for us. Thanks a million for the work you are doing, Zach. I appreciate you very much!!
I loved your comments here Linda. Thank you for spending the time.
@@markduric7812 thank you.
Thank you for your comment, support, and the work you are doing! I certainly agree with your approach. From your description I have only experienced "badly taught, badly explained, badly understood permaculture" and that includes an online course from Geoff Lawton and many other popular and big name instructors. The examples that I cite here are actually from high ranking and "reputable" PRI instructors, the people who have been elevated to the top of the permaculture movement. In fact I have yet to experience any permaculture trainings like what you have described yours as, so in my experience what you are doing is more the exception than the rule. Thank you for doing that and bravo!
I've heard many a horror story from the demonstration permaculture farms in Australia, and it seems they are often not even able to grow the food for the people living, learning, and working there. So I certainly don't mean to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but I am only able to speak about what I have experienced within the permaculture movement. In my opinion the whole idea that a "design science" is the best way to learn from and interact with the landscape is really mislead, it's a colonized way of thinking about the landscape, where we are in control of, rather than a part of nature.
Thank you Linda for your support and for all you do! And for providing a better example of what permaculture can be, we desperately need more of that!
@@Water_Storiesnone of the "big names" know it all, and many people who teach see permaculture courses as a way to make a living, a job that brings in money for their own projects. The "golden calf" does strange things to us humans.... That said, I also suspect that all of them have something to teach us. In my case, Geoff Lawton´s online course gave me the necessary "mainframe" information structure and showed me enough about the interactive processes of the biosphere to peak my curiosity and more investigations with soil, atmospheric science, water retention landscape etc. people, like yourself, who have given me the next layer of understanding. Connection with nature is a very personal experience that can be guided, as you know, but that can also become useless navel gazing in the hands of some guides. The mix of science, spiritual wonder and the passion to understand reality is so important. With that integration, we can do so much that is good, regenerative, supportive of life. Without it, we wander and risk grave mistakes. Keep up the good work!
@@lindamorrison450 Thank you for your comments here!
Visibility is so hard these days (of the "best" practices rather than the biggest fish), I feel that a much longer "observe, then interact" excercise is necessary from my side before I even start to generalize and form an opinion about anything or anyone at all, if I'll ever even be able to come close to all the information there is to observe out there (no, of course I'm not). I've not taken GL's online PDC. I know people who have and loved it, others who have and hated it or are doing things to their land that I would definitely not recommend to anyone.
Right now I feel all actions and all voices in pro of Life are needed though, and that Intention makes up for a lot... and yes I Agree it is not always easy to know where to go for the right kind of information, definitely not when science is only recently catching up and able to explain the happenings in the soil for example, so coming from the mechanistic mindset in our western paradigm (what Linda mentions as "the need to unlearn" is often true in my experience of teaching PDCs too) and wanting to do things right is not an easy path.
I recall Rosemary Morrow telling us at the end of her Permaculture Teacher Training that Bill Mollison said to just go out and teach permaculture as it is what the world needs (not necessarily with the name attached to it I believe), the students will confirm whether or not you are doing a good job and will stay away if not... under that banner, I guess GL is doing alright for some...
Some are practicioners, some are better teachers / advocates, some are artists and artisans, some are more spiritual and others are more practical. It's definitely interesting to think about all these aspects of Life and about what people are looking for right now in moments of uncertainty for many, oblivion for some, and how I can best offer the world what I have to give, what I know now, what I am capable of doing within my context, needs/resources/limits. I'm a real fan of the permaculture concept, and think it's done great things in many places through the work of many people. I feel personally addressed when I hear it attacked (especially as we are working with Water mainly!)...
Now as for some radical collaboration, Linda, you teach in Spanish too, the great Google tells me you are even in Spain, care to connect and share some of our experiences? It sounds interesting that you have a 2 year PDC where we have just scaled down from 1 year to 6 months to keep momentum going, but might revert back...
Zach, I REALLY appreciate your perspective here. I want to get a PDC for use myself and possibly for using it to help others and make it profitable. I’m so glad I came across you channel before deciding to get it and where to get it from. Also, to be aware of “sacred cows” on my way through training.
It's not permaculture that is the issue, but people using the word permaculture to describe the work they do with out the actual experience or training. We do teach the importance of spending time on the land, observing and connecting with the land, digging the test pits, understand the soil, etc... all the things you talk about and share in your video.
It has also been my experience that many people are just looking for a recipe or list of steps to do without really understanding the land and taking the teachings out of context. It is so frustrating when people say, we are doing permaculture, look at our swales, herb spiral and food forest. So don't blame permaculture, because it is really our culture of instant gratification and not taking the time to really connect with and understand the land. It seems people like to cherry pick specific techniques instead of learning the patterns. Zach, I have a great appreciation for the work you do and the education you offer. I recommend your courses to students, because I totally agree, we need more practitioners. I do agree with much of what you share in this video and I wish it was presented a different way that wasn't disregarding the positive benefits of permaculture practices. I like what one commenter noted, call it Type 1 permaculture errors instead.
This was never intended to be negative, but rather constructive criticisms and ways to improve permaculture. But clearly we've missed the mark in accomplishing that. A permaculture conference asked Zach to speak about the shortcomings of swales, and how swales may not make sense in every context, and this is the presentation that came as a result. We never expected it would be so popular, or that it would be taken negatively.
To be clear, we LOVE permaculture. This video is from a permaculture conference. We want it to be even better, and become more successful, and that's the intention behind sharing these real world examples.
We're going to try again in a shorter video and hopefully we'll land closer to the target. Thank you for the thoughtful comment and helpful suggestions!
Really really appreciate this lecture, for its discernment and considered arguments. I am just beginning some land management and learning from permaculture and everything I can get my hands on. Taking care of a north facing slope in Ireland, that leads to a small river. It has had some heavy digger work creating a new septic tank percolation area and some terracing. Only bare soil now, and Im freaking out because we've had freakish August rainfall... Can't wait until the ground cover comes in, I'm spreading see, and will do as much planting of bushes and shrubs as I can afford. Any advice welcome!
Thank you for sharing the info and priceless experience. Some valid points made.
I think Permaculture is awesome, people just misuse the tools provided all the time. I have done it. We learn and we move on.
Please don't encourage your students to get down into the test hole. Dangerous.
Sirrr the swale isn't meant to be permanent. It's a short term thing that should only be used to get trees started. Definitely shouldn't be using them for every other crop you have.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience and I have a comment in that I don't think we need to cast negativity on Permaculture, because it can encapsulate so many beneficial projects and inspire them, in these times of pressing needs for land-use improvements; let me give you a personal example. For a short period back in 2014 I was living in an apartment in El Segundo, CA, to the North around 1.5 miles away was Los Angeles International Airport (LAX), to the South about .5 mile away was a Chevron refinery. In fact one of the reasons that El Segundo is called so is that Standard Oil's second refinery was placed there. We approached the landlord at my friend's apartment complex and asked if we could turn a scrappy piece of sandy soil into an urban permaculture project; it was an 8ft x 13ft area; they agreed and so we went ahead. Not everyone has access to multiple acres of land and also, most food is consumed in cities and towns and yet is often grown many miles away. Once more, thanks for what you are sharing here. For anyone interested in our permaculture projects, there is more here, right at the foot on this blog-piece is the garden in El Segundo we created incredibleedibleeugene.wordpress.com/blog/
I find it interesting that sharing constructive criticism about something you care about is considered casting negativity. This presentation was done to hopefully improve how permaculture people operate, yet a number of people here in the comments have taken it as an attack upon permaculture.
We need to find and illuminate the shortcomings if we are to improve, I think this is part of the reason why permaculture hasn't advanced much and doesn't have many meaningful demonstration projects. There are many demonstration projects, but most of the best ones are from people who were doing their own thing and had never heard the word permaculture, until other people started calling their work permaculture and it eventually stuck. The best permaculturists I know have never even taken a PDC!
@@Water_Stories As I stated in the beginning if my comments, I very much appreciate what you do and have done. It's interesting, I am listening to one of Nate Hagan's excellent where they discuss how some of the more enlightened communities-organizations end up lessening their impacts by disagreeing among themselves on miniscule but beneficial tasks instead of doing all we can to turn the disasters facing our planet around. Perhaps my use of the word "negative" was literally too negative. On the subject of PDC's my own opinion is that they are used too often to make money. Personally I only know one other person with a PDC however I do know many doing great beneficial things for our biosphere. Thank for taking the time to respond to my comment. This is the Nate Hagen's podcast btw czcams.com/video/86cEx7gXApo/video.html
@@edgeman148 100% agree. If the people doing good work are spending their limited energy disagreeing with one another then we are really doomed. Also there are many different types of approaches that work and deliver results, and we need them all. Thank you for your comments!
A couple things...
One being, its essence referenced in the point relayed as to how We have destroyed the wetlands of California. I grew up in the town that sits right next to one of the remaining intact estuaries in SoCal, and I can say, out of all the places I have been, throughout the West, over some 30 years, that that tiny spot consistently gave me the most, and deepest, "spiritual"/"cosmic"/"deep time" connections I have ever experienced. One path in the estuary always struck me as having been walked on by People long, long ago. The beach just over the dunes is far enough removed from the residences and streets of the town, that sitting there, alone, at night, could seemingly transport you to a previous time. That We have destroyed these places is to our folly.
I can also say that I have always been fascinated with how water flows and pools on the Earth. I had always found myself making little channels and wet spots wherever I lived, just to see what would happen. Much to my delight, I learned, through permaculture! (I had the correct teachers!), that this is something you are supposed to do on a piece of land, for at least a year. Pay attention to what is going on with everything, for a long time. All the time.
Lastly... these principles that you, and I suppose the others you have learned from, espouse, in regards to allowing the People of a place to show you what is going on in their lands, and what they need, is the very same principles that is espoused by the communist/socialist/anarchist movements, those that wish to break Humanity out of its chains. It makes sense, then, that both these concepts and practices, in agriculture, and in politics, are what is needed to re-balance our connection to Nature. To truly decolonize our grip on it, as well as on each other.
Zach, thank you for highlighting these pitfalls and sharing some ways to avoid them.
The title of this lecture could more accurately be labeled: “permaculture practitioner pitfalls...”.
I am curious to know more details (e.g. slope) on the Ecuador swale-failure.
Generally speaking, Permaculture Design is inclusive of disciplines and strategies that lend themselves to the goal of creating sustainable human settlements.
I understand your desire to distinguish yourself from misguided people who are degrading landscapes and calling it permaculture. However, the ways to avoid the pitfalls that you have pointed out are more similar than different to the ways provided in the permaculture originators' literature. For instance: "Test the soil by auger holes, soil samples, and soil pits to determine if the soil is good enough to suit your plans..." (Pg. 228 Permaculture: A Designers Manual)
With that being said, I look at the work you are creating on the ground in admiration. Your point about needing more practitioners rings true. I hope to take your professional pathways course and transition into being a water restoration practitioner.
Please keep the content coming!
-Ryan
I am so happy to see this video. I have spent so much time trying to dissuade people from the mistakes they want to implement on their land because they've read a book, watched a video, or taken a workshop.
This is priceless.
I really want to take the Core Course so I can level up my understanding of the water cycle(s), plus learn how to read the land in new ways - but I don't have the money for it (yet)!
I want to learn how to read a site and truly work WITH it as best as possible.
This was a very good talk! Having taken a pdc as my introduction to permaculture and now building my own site many of these concepts match my experience. The design aspect is very hard and just getting to work has worked better for me.
I love Water Stories, I hope to get some training later and some help in Kenya where we are going to observe the watershed management opportunities and to do agroforestry
This man is discussing living symbols vs dead symbols. Learning living language has an unmatched value.
I always had romantic ideas of going and living off grid, and when I discovered permaculture about a year ago it was like a lightbulb went off. A lot of my concerns about real sustainable independence and self-reliance suddenly had, not a full bulletproof solution, but a collection of strategies that could help. Sounds promising, but I've been worried that I'll run into some blindspot that leads to me screwing myself over in the long run. So I read more, watch more videos, draft new loose plans incorporating what I've learned. Rinse and repeat.
Sometimes, I come across people documenting their progress, and their enthusiasm for the hard work is inspiring, but in some cases, the strategies immediately strike me as sort of missing the point. "Why are you bothering with swales in a place that's already covered in lush vegetation and trees? Clearly the natural precipitation events here are doing a fine job hydrating the landscape." But I haven't had the opportunity to get my hands dirty yet, and I find my confidence wavering. I start feeling I may be backing the wrong horse in my self-directed studies, so to speak. I appreciate this video greatly. The sober critiques help me to re-center my mindset for planning, and reassures me that I am right to be giving diligent thought to not just the "how," but always the "why."
I'm born and raised in a concrete desert (suburban Los Angeles), and I'm still saving up to build a modest house on my land in high desert. In my free time, I'm exhaustively planning for the day I can break ground not just on putting four walls and a roof up, but actually live in close proximity to observe those season-to-season changes in the landscape. It seems fundamental to me that if you want to implement a system(s) that harmonizes with nature, that has to start with observing what you're working with. Thanks for the video.
Just a few minutes in, and already applaud your anti-plastic lined pond comment!! I've done 6 small ponds at my place so far, to varying degrees of "success". The great thing about all natural construction is that "mistakes" can easily be transformed into something else that has a positive outcome :)
I was hiking in the mountains of Ankara, in the western part of the Republic of Georgia in the Caucasus last year and discovered that the villagers there had constructed a small swale and berm along the ridge of steep mountains above the villages in the valley to collect water seeming down. Adjara is close to the Black Sea and gets tons of humidify. The berm channeled water from all along the ridge so that enough was gathered to supply drinking water to all the people below. During the Soviet area, iron pipes were installed to cross cliff slopes too steep to cut a swale, but it seemed like the original design was far older. I would love to have been able to ask the village people who originally constructed the water collection system.
I expect that similar techniques of landscape/water management have been independently invented all over the world.
This is a great video. I also like the commentary on domination :)
WOW! Soooo much time”bashing” permaculture and sooo little solutions?!?! The solutions you do supply sounds amazing like permaculture!!!
Hey mate, valuable info and I’m really enjoying the content but you make so many sweeping statements that I feel are incorrect. You talk about an example and then claim that to be all “permaculturalists” or for example you say that there are thousands of designers and no Practitioners, again not true. I totally agree with you that many designers are not on the land and doing the studies themselves but there are also going to be lots of designers that are. It’s dangerous to make general sweeping statements that you can’t guarantee are correct
And yeah you talk about plastic lines ponds, which we know is insane but you make out that every Permie does this and it’s like a go to within implementation and it’s simply not like that
I can only see my own vantage point and am speaking from such. I have seen VERY few permaculture designers that actually build things for clients in an ecological way. I've seen a number that do permaculture designs, and then implement them as a normal landscaping company would. And even more people who design and never implement. I only know of one other person (David Spicer) who really does both the design and the implementation of the work in a meaningful way. I would LOVE to learn of and meet more, if you know of more please share them here!
12 minutes in wait a minute I saw this live in a conference back in September. This is how I first discovered him love your work
Thanks for checking it out again! :-)
Good lecture, I appreciate your criticisms, and observations.
Outstanding Zach thank you!
"They talk about observing but not WHAT to observe or HOW to observe it. "
Exactly! I have spoken very similar words. I have found more answers to many of my questions in the regenerative ag sphere to be honest. There are crossovers with and holes within each, but it is interesting to hear the differences in focus.
(Not necessarily a problem with all of permaculture, but I think generalities are being made about the culture in this video.)
Kat
I watched all of the video and the confernce, thank you, and have just a couple of comments.
- It wasn't until half way through the questions that the lack of a non-white, non-male voice starting being annoyingly obvious.
- thank you TJ for the question about storing water high, i had the same question.
- the title was a bit click-baity for us permaculture fans, but thank you, i'm glad I took the bait.
- I was thinking about "transform water-sheds into water catchment" vs "swales aren't that great". So I guess the thing is the scale of "landscape" compared to the scale of the farm. It's more about the whole valley for the water catchment and all the benefits that come with it.
- i also think the small and slow versus big interventions is interesting and was talking about this with Sergi from Mas les Vinyes here in Spain last week. Small and slow is great for someone who just did their PDC and is in the "do the wrong thing rather than nothing" phase, but when Zach Weiss and Sepp and Serigi as well are involved.. now
time to go big!!!
The lack of non-white, non-male voices is another glaring shortcoming I see within the permaculture movement, thank you for pointing that out. As a white male it seems like something that I am not adequately qualified to provide some realistic solutions to - I try to only bring up problems that I can also present clear solutions for. It's much more of a problem in some crowds than others, and I'm very happy that Water Stories has so far developed a really wide and diverse global community - very different from the typical permaculture crowd.
Thank you for watching and for your thoughtful comments!
@Water Stories definitely actively searching for Indigenous women's voices and actively searching for other marginalized women's voices in this is what's needed. Once you start finding and supporting them and providing them the speaking opportunities it becomes a snowball where you find more :)
@@Water_Storiesmore cheap shots ! Read the Designer's Manual!
Really? Thats a problem you see in permaculture? The problem is not with permaculture... Its in your mindset. Or the specific communities you are working with. There is no lack of diversity among people practicing permaculture around the world. Not everyone calls it permaculture, some just call it farming, living, or TEK. Its so disrespectful and small minded to blame "the permaculture movement", and to not recognize the majority of people on this planet who practice sustainable farming are non-white and non-male. If you want more diversity- take responsibility, choose to reach out, include, recognize, and promote it. (If you fail to recognize your part in this and blame something outside yourself, your not going to grow, and your teaching other people to do the same). If you are qualified to use a telephone/email, and a humble , open minded and respectful attitude, you are qualified to address this issue.
It might not have occurred to you, but you are probably standing on land right now where people were practicing permaculture for thousands of years. The word permaculture is fairly new but sustainable living is not. There is probably someone nearby, a lot closer than you think, who could work with you on this. Or you could Invite people from other parts of the world to add their perspectives to your videos or projects.
Both equatorward and poleward sites have their purposes. There's not even a theoretical reason that designer should have rejected the example poleward site. They must've just been obsessed with growing in a zone one hotter than they're actually in.
Thank you for alerting me to the risks of swaling in a region with geology that can cause washouts. I'd heard this as legends, from New Caledonia (or New Guinea or somewhere like that idk) rather than Ecuador, but didn't fully understand the mechanism until you explained in this video that the geology in the area was soluble. For my part, where I am (less than 1/10 ac, in a city), I would be more concerned about an ephemeral spring suddenly appearing in a neighbor's front yard and becoming a headache when it rains. I think I'd do better with lined ponds for rainwater harvesting for irrigation. It's not stylish, but it'd work.
15:55 😱 That is scary! As I watch this video I am both worried and relieved at the same time. Worried, because I didn't know how many "designers" there are out there who aren't up to snuff, but relieved because I have always worried that I was too theory-based and now I see that 1. I read the landscape fairly well and 2. I know how to get better at reading the landscape.
This was very stimulating. However it also felt it a bit unfair. As many of the critiques of permaculture practices were in fact justified by invoking permaculture design principles.
I think rather than proving holes in permaculture you have proved how important it is to counter all the Principles against each other! Which is in itself an excellent point.
With this said I completely share with you that permaculture is abused by those without sufficient practice both in ecosystem reading and being on the land in general. I find arrogance in the “I´ll teach you how to do miracles through my expensive course even though I provide myself with 2% of my own food” And that swale and hugelkultur -and also herb spirals- are infuriatingly omnipresent for those at early stages of understanding.
I also agree we should be using the remaining fossil fuels to implement earthworks that might help counter the overall mess we´ve made and can understand your call for rapid action… which would not be easily compatible with the symbiotic relationship you described.
Got me thinking which is welcome.
I don't understand why Zach feels the need to tear down the efforts of permaculture movement or design in general. I don't think Zach has any understanding of the basic design process as implemented by landscape architects. I understand that there are issues with many people calling themselves "permaculture" but have never even studied, let alone laid hands on a copy of the Permaculture Designer's Manual by Bill Mollison. I wonder if Zach has read this key textbook. So far from what I've seen in "Water Stories" is great marketing material, but I've still yet to see any technical education or applied technological information in any of these "Water Stories" videos. Can anyone point to a specific "Water Stories" video(s) which discusses how to design and create pervious ponds with clay lining? How to actually implement the construction of earthworks on the ground?
Bashing key concepts drives traffic. One can't be wrong if he doesn't share anything
The biggest gap or pitfall I have seen with "permaculture" is a lack of consideration of cashflowing and prioritizing investments in "designs". I have seen some beautiful "designs" coming out of PDC's that can never be implemented because they ignore the costs, investment, and cashflowing requirements of their designs. Holistic management or simply leveraging content taught in MBA programs can fix this and focus designs to what is doable. Joel Salatin or Sepp Holtzer have properties developed incrementally over 40+ years that could never be cashflowed in current market environments. There also needs to be more attention to practical infrastructure including heavy equipment. There is also a lack of "permaculture" training on engineering topics like the role of geotech studies (Zach's test pits) or civil engineering of common structures like roads, dams, or terraces.
I really like your comment. My hubby was a civil engineer, and I am strongly considering getting my PDC for actual use. So I have influence from the one side, but natural bent from the other. Interesting but needed combo I think. My only question is, how would one take holistic management or simple leveraging content taught in MBA programs if one doesn’t have an MBA degree or an MBA around them?
Great comments overall, but I disagree that Sepp's properties could not be developed incrementally in current market environments. I think it is actually MUCH easier to do in current markets than at the time Sepp did it. Just imagine trying to do it with no internet, no easy way to market direct to consumer, and farm stays and ecotourism not yet in vogue. I think Sepp's general strategy and approach is MUCH easier now than ever before.
@@Snappypantsdance Engage the support of an experienced dowser - and along the way take up dowsing yourself? Be open to the answers and you'll learn to ask the right questions. Obvs dowsing is a reflection of/ crutch for one's natural understanding and intuition.
All the best with your venture.
🌳🕊💚
I think permaculture designers tend to point out that nature is constantly changing. I don't think they intend for their design to be final, but rather to solve obvious problems with a look towards the future, knowing that new problems will arise.
Hey Zach, apologies, I'm coming top this video in 2024. I'd very much appreciate your input on a question. Relating to your comment at around the 23/24 minute mark regarding drainage and containing water on a slope, it would seem to me that best practice should be to store as much water on a slope as the the slope can SAFELY sustain. Anything beyond that increases the risk of slippage/landslide/washout, which is obvious and environment and also safety hazard. If my reasoning is correct, how then do we go about determining what is the safe holding capacity of water on any given slope?
It seems to have been said, but when i did my permaculture design course, you do look at ecology, topology, geology climate and micro climate before design.
I find the downside for me was that I am not expert enough to do these assessments. I'm not a geologist, biologist of any sort etc. I felt too inexperienced to make judgements. I practice in my own space through obsevation, implementation, trial and error and learn along the way. Which i understand is also permaculture. Permaculture is not 'controlled domination' ' human as commander'. It is cexactly what you say. Nature is teacher. Just because design is on paper, that's not a bad thing. That's just translating from in your head to a way of communicating to others. If you have observed mistakes, that's just human nature not letting go of over confidence and ignoancce not relinquishing to following true permaculture practice, or just not having the capacity to. As like me, we are not experts in everything, or even anything! You are speaking permaculture principles. Have you read them?
Do you know anyone, in south of France (would be best) that would have this kind of knowledge to share?
Because I heard you and it made me think of observations I did, but I have no clue about what to do about them '^^
SMH. This video almost has a great point about the Dunning-Kruger effect, but also seems to fall victim to it itself. Im worried you might mislead some people. When someone first learns about swales, they sound great and they might try to implement them where they aren't the best choice. Ive seen a neighbors two year old swale cause a landslide and take a road with it. But to dump on swales... I wouldn't let that one example mean I would never use a swale. Just to be more thoughtful about there placement. They are not appropriate for every situation but they should not be ignored either. You say you have designed "thousands" of landscapes and not put one swale in? The only lightbulb going off is that you don't know how to use swales- or perhaps your trying to help someone just starting out from being over zealous with putting in swales... You mentioned at 28:36 the hugelckulture mound works in theory and not practice... Well, I've used small ones, and seen dramatic benefits. Its not just a theory, it can really work. Try it- before telling people they don't work. You state the water finds ways through (thats part of the point of them)- and yes the mound settles but in the very picture your critiquing the trees aren't planted on the mound- they are planted just below the mound (where there is more water, and more fungal and microbial life in the soil caused by the increase in water, and the wood breaking down).
Contours are indeed a good way to read the landscape. What permaculture pdc did you take where the teacher said to look at the contours and only the contours? They are a very useful tool and are to be used in combination with as many other ways to read the landscape as you can manage.
Maybe your trying to help newcomers avoid mistakes, and I am grateful you are trying if thats the case. The way some of this information is presented it might lead to people making completely different mistakes. Use contours as a tool to better understand the landscape, in conjunction with others. Use swales when appropriate, just be aware they might not be best for your climate, soil, or topography. Try new things, make small mistakes and learn from them. Swales , contours, and hugelkulture aren't always good, and like this video kind of infers- they aren't always bad or misused either. Don't be too far on either side of the spectrum, or look for quick fixes and magic bullets. Find that balance -
hmm, am a permaculturist, but dont know any permaculturalists personally that use dam liners. To the contrary, the practice is 'capture, retain, sink'. Perhaps those 'doing permaculture' and using pond liners simply want to retain water and are not true permaculturalists. Permaculture is all about 'refilling aquifers' and 'soil testing'. Healthy Soil and Soil Food Web is everything in permaculture. It's prudent to understand that there are crooks and bad 'specialists' in every profession (construction, electrical, landscaping and yes, in permaculture as well).
I count myself lucky that I've never been "trained" in permaculture. I do consider myself a permaculturist though because I read Mollison's books and was highly influenced by them. My main takeaway from the writings was that permaculture proceeds entirely from what you're calling reading the land. I like the phrase "listening to the land" better, but they're basically the same thing.
I think permaculture is closer to reading the land than conventional landscape design, but it is also a lot closer to conventional landscape design than actually reading the landscape. The books mention reading the land, but don't explain how to do it, and then proceed to lead people to design landscapes from maps and contours and at a drafting table, instead of on the land.
@@Water_Stories who do you work with? I have never seen a designer who doesnt interact with the land. Sure some people take shortcuts. But it is the exception rather than the rule. Besides design from pattern to detail is effective to offer general strategies as a starting point.
@@Water_Stories You are ignorant.
If a driver who doesn't know how to drive, rams a BMW into a wall, who're you going to blame. I have NOT read the manual, but I HAVE actually listened to many of Geoff Lawton's videos. He REPEATEDLY emphasizes the need to keep changing the plan as the site develops. He says to keep making changes as you get experience working on the land. Also swales are put in places where the water table needs to me mended, where there is a SCARCITY of water. Once the land is replenished, they can be left to fill up if their need is no longer required.
Zach, I wish there wee a way that I could contact you with some certainty. You are our present best hope, but there are some things that you (like permaculture and Sepp Holzer) don't quite have right. Basically you are on the right track, but I wish so much that I could discuss a few differences between your thinking and doing and mine. In this comment I will try to state them VERY briefly. Stated MOST briefly I would simply say "kilocalories". But offering a little more -- heavy machinery, perfect contours with drop structures, ponds, and pigs. Those are subjects I would like to engage you in conversation with.
I guess I could say that what I have to offer is a better way to achieve much the same thing that you do but without the use of fossil fuels.
What do you do when theres 50ft of sand. No clay. All the water regardless of being in a pond goes right through
How do you determine where to do a test slice?
The land tells you when you know how to look and what to look for. It's far too complicated to try and explain in the comments here, which is why we have developed a whole training program to help people understand and implement this kind of work.
I need Andrew Milison to draw everything everyone is explaining. Nonetheless, this information and awareness are important.
I think you are somewhat conflating the fellowship of permaculture with the program of permaculture. The way I have always understood it my first job is to observe, and for a considerable amount of time. And only fourteen minutes in, on this viewing at least, that is the thought that nags at me. It is perhaps what separates much useful education from useful application. And much of what you have described is pure permaculture in the sense that it is driven by a cooperative effort based upon community input and careful observation to see what any particular situation requires.
I do, however, tire of seeing the word bandied about the way it is. At the same time, I tire of seeing it conflated with nothing but landscape design until it becomes a pinterest category on herb spirals. Or swales. The second and third ethics have nothing to do with all of that. They are about social constructs and how we treat one another, how we create a society by design based upon return of the surplus and the care of our brothers and sisters.
My partner and I are forming a non-profit with the notion that I could teach permaculture to parolees here in western Colorado and perhaps teach people some useful skills they could use here while further propagating the three ethics along with the principles and practices I've learned. I received my PDC back in 2014 and never did anything with it. I thereafter sold the farm and ended up incarcerated here in Colorado for a short time and haven't felt purposeful about anything until now. But I began writing a mission statement for this effort and found myself willfully minimizing my use of the word permaculture, precisely because of how I see it applied. And how I see it applied is pretty much how I am setting out to apply it here: selling landscape design to rich, white women on the western slope so they can greenwash their lives and feel good about themselves. I joked with my partner recently about incorporating a pad for a Jetson One into every design in Aspen. I have stared too long into the Abyss,
Permaculture in its purest sense is still, I think, pretty revolutionary. If someone doesn't think so, they haven't thought it through to its logical conclusions or listened careffully to Mollison. People care and fair share, are two-thirds of the total program. Those words mean something to me. I was born in 1963, and they're like a dog whistle to my ears.
Can you give any practical tips to help recognize when a swale is at high risk to cause a land slide?
I give a number of them in the video and I believe it is also one of the questions from the audience towards the end.
I listened again closely and got my answer.
You do say that no water welled up or sat in that swale in Ecuador. It just immediately disappeared. That's the tip I was looking for.
So much info in this video, I almost need to watch twice. 👍
How much does it cost for help or opinions?
43:05 There are good points here, but I also understand the critiques.
Permaculture is a system with ethics.
Unfortunately, most permaculture criticizers haven’t learned permaculture. And if they had, they would know that permaculture dams absolutely are about infiltration.. If someone’s using a pond liner, that’s their choice for whatever reason. There isn’t a permaculture policing body. but recharging the water in the landscape is absolutely a permaculture priority, unless, of course your goal is to move the water more quickly through the system to avoid over saturation.. Also, it is well known in permaculture that you may start with a plan, but you adjust as you observe how nature reacts to what you’ve set up. That you make small, gradual changes, so that you can observe, and have the greatest effect. I really don’t advise taking some thing as complex as permaculture, and saying that you know where the holes in it are when you haven’t learned the system. And ultimately, people who practice permaculture know that they don’t need to use any label for the collection of best practices and traditional methods that make it up. It’s a loose system hard to define and easy to criticize because it truly is about a journey, as Geoff Lawton would say of re-integrating self with nature. Don’t get hung up on calling anything permaculture or not permaculture. Just focus on doing right by the land and reconnecting with it.
There are no permaculture practitioners? Who’s misleading now? Just the most recent individual to shit on permaculture to make a name for themselves despite the fact that they wouldn’t have a client base with the popularity and work done in the name of permaculture.
I'm quite surprised how sensitive to criticism permaculturists are. This is meant to uplift permaculture with constructive criticism, not to bring it down. How is the movement going to improve otherwise?
Be honest, how many permaculturists do you know that earn their living doing projects or farming rather than teaching PDC's and designing?
Respectfully, I’m not sensitive about it, I am criticizing your criticism. I agree constructive criticism is fantastic. I am just so tired of the numerous people who have a start as designers, consultants, teachers, etc who want to rebrand themselves for purposes of distinguishing themselves. It is my thought that with anything that gains too much popularity the old saying is applicable…”it’s so popular that nobody goes there anymore.” Permaculture has always been inclusive of different approaches and criticisms and has a growth perspective. Inclusive to the point that it is criticized by some as being an appropriation culture. The practice is not set in stone.
And too be fair, do you make your living practicing your craft on your property that you are intimately working with, or like other designers/consultants getting paid by other people to design and implement that design on their land? And to host your own version of workshops and classes? You can see how it comes across as disingenuous.
I appreciate your work and perspective, why I was willing to listen. And for the record, I am raising my kids and on my farm full time, so..
@@branchingtraditions9220 first let me say thank you for what you are doing. Every step in a more positive direction helps. While this may look to be "rebranding" as you say it, I learned something different and have never called my work permaculture. In fact that is the same for all of the best examples of water restoration around the world that I know. Sepp Holzer, Rajendra Singh, Wangari Maathai, Peter Marshall, Peter Andrews, Masanobu Fukuoka, Zephaniah Phiri Maseko, the list goes on and on. None of these people learned permaculture, they learned from nature. Later after their work had accomplished incredible things permaculturists started calling their work permaculture. There is certainly a great deal of appropriation within the permaculture movement.
I do and have made my living practicing my craft, creating real results for people around the world. Only after a decade of on the ground hands on experience did I start teaching. This is very different from the typical permaculturist who takes their PDC and immediately starts teaching others without any or with very little real world experience. I don't have my own land because I have spent all of my earnings creating a free online platform to help spread these stories and this approach.
I also see many people who learned permaculture rebrand their work once it becomes effective. I think there's a reason for this. A lot of permaculture achieves relatively little in the form of real tangible results. It's mostly theory and classes, and often relatively little in the form of on the ground practice. So once people start achieving results they want to distinguish themselves from the movement because of this.
Again I think permaculture is a great thing, and opens the door to a lot of new ideas and ways of thinking for a lot of people. But it is also very stymied by theory cripples and needs to go a lot further and be more practice based and connected to nature to achieve the results that we all want. Thank you for your thoughtful comments and for all you do!
I think you're creating a false dichotomy here Zach and potentially driving a wedge between yourself and those who would otherwise be allies.
Anyone who studies and creates a permaculture-style project for themselves soon learns to listen to the land. (If they don't, they've a long hard road of learning ahead of them!) I'm a permaculture teacher. This is EXACTLY what I teach! My land is even listed as one of the teachers of my courses and establishing dialogue with Nature is one of the first sessions on the first day of a PDC.
The thing is, the relationship between the land and its human steward is highly individual. Everyone has their own way of communicating with their ecosystem and discovering it is part of the journey. It's deeply personal and it can't be taught in any generalised methodical prescriptive way. Only mentored. And this is implicit in both Mollison's and Holmgren's writings. You just have to have eyes to see it and a sensibility to understand it. But again, that's wholly individual.
Please keep on doing what you do, but don't get into stupid egotistical one-upmanship games. The Earth needs all hands and will guide those hands to the unique relationships they're uniquely qualified for. Let's celebrate that diversity and learn from it!
I found your video very interesting. I don't think the problem is Permaculture some people just get impatient and don't spend enough time on the observation stage. Also, there are many types of ponds used in Permaculture. Sometimes a tank is called for in order to hold on to seasonal rain for specific uses. I found Permaculture Ponds by Andrew Millison to be very informative czcams.com/video/AadLCOqalFk/video.html
This video you shared is actually a perfect example of one of the biggest problems I see within permaculture - videos with millions of views created by people who doesn't actually create the things they're teaching about. How can people really teach that don't have the real world experience of doing? This is a huge problem I see throughout permaculture.
I spent a decade doing on the ground work around the world and still feel I have so much to learn before I can really be a good teacher. But at some point I looked around and realized that it was a decade more of practical experience than most of the permaculture teachers out there.
@@Water_Stories spot on Zach! I can't trust those people who have never got their hands dirty :)
@@terryallaway5881 you can always tell what someone really knows, what they have done, by their hands. Mine are full of calluses and scars, but when I shake Sepp's hand it feels like shaking hands with a bear! 🙂
@@Water_Stories do you have Millison's CV in front of you? I dont know him but he has a ton of projects under his belt at different scales. Also, you must have missed the part at the end where he says he is providing an overview and it would be dangerous to start digging based on his video. Saying you have to have stick time on heavy equipment to be able to talk about something conceptually is a little gatekeepy. There are scales at play. I have never raised chickens for money and probably wouldnt tell people how to make money with poultry at q conference, but I am competent enough and experienced enough to teach the basics of raising chickens to the local garden club. A pharmaceutical chemist can still teach nuclear physics even though it isnt their expertise. A grade school social science teacher doesnt need a phd to teach a unit on classical Greece. We need experts and we need generalists. Experts often suffer from tunnel vision and biases passed through their discipline. Those biases are also evident in permaculture whereby people begin to believe they must have some kind of grand earthwork. It all starts with management objectives. We also deify people who shouldnt be elevated to sainthood. Experts can screw up. Have you put much thought to the economic planners punishing the masses with austerity? 🤷
Hundreds or thousands of projects ? You must be really old, if you are working conscientiously, not like all those bad permaculturists...
I haven't spent the time to count up my projects before, thinking about it more it's definitely over one hundred, but not in the thousands. 10-50 projects per year for the last 13 years adds up quick.
Even though I am a big fan of your work, Zach, I am shocked that this talk is teeming with completely false negative assumptions about Permaculture. Bill Mollison brought Permaculture into a massive global movement with millions of students by opening his arms and endorsing traditional sustainable practices that had proved themselves to assist regeneration of beneficial factors and including rather than offending and polarizing.
If a designer makes a design without knowing what type of material they work with they can hardly be called "designer" they deserve to be called "grifter" at best.
What interior designer will not be aware of the material they have to work with?
What earth design can be done without knowing the earth?
Permaculture or no permaculture is not the point here. xD
A grifter can claim to be whatever they want doesn't make them what they claim to be.
You need to practice to know what you're doing, that is the only way to become efficient in anything, I thought it was obvious but from what I hear here it seems it is not always that clear
I find major parts of this presentation to be quite frustrating. The information & impressions are probably true, but there’s a lack of understanding exhibited here.
Zach says he wants 1,000 practitioners for every 1 planner. That’s fine, but most people interested in helping have day-jobs. We aren’t retired, or independently wealthy, and most of us won’t have 100%-all-day-practioner jobs that allow us to practice these skills all year.
I have sympathy for planners, because after a 9-hour work-day, I can still watch videos, read, imagine, plan, and only on the weekends to I get a chance to put-in a few hours of practice. That what a lot of us have to offer.
A second lack of understanding is this:
Zach talks a lot about ‘intuitive’ understanding of the land, and ‘read the landscape’.
How does one get this intuitive understanding. Apparently not by videos or reading. Apparently it cannot be had by just a few hours a available time on weekends.
So then what? “If you have a day-job, then you’ll never develop intuition, so don’t start.”?
I think Zach’s basic message is correct, that the best practice is Do-Be-Do-Be-Do. Watch videos and read, and make plans for a very small scale. Practice those plans, then observe, learn, seek knowledge. Then make better & bigger plans, and practice those. Repeat. Repeat.
Please remember that most of us don’t have 100%-all-day-practioner jobs, and we are doing the best we can.
Scott a lot of your frustrations here actually closely mirror my own frustrations with permaculture. SO many of the major permaculture teachers have little to no real on the ground practical experience. They've never learned how to do, therefore they are unable to teach others how to do. So they focus on theory and design instead, because those are much easier to teach. How can people be expected to do, when they are being taught by educators who don't know how to do themselves?
It's like trying to learn how to play an instrument. You can read and watch all you like, but until you start practicing the instrument you'll never learn how to play it. And if your teacher doesn't know how to play the instrument, how is the student supposed to actually learn?!
For reading the land and intuitively manifesting with nature your awareness and actions are that instrument. The more you practice the better you will get at it. If you instead dive into the theory, reading and watching all the videos, but never practicing the instrument, you'll never really get anywhere. You'll likely know a lot about the instrument, its history, how it's made, etc, but still not be able to play a song.
So my best advice to you is to leave the books and videos behind and spend that time out on the landscape. Spend it observing, connecting, understanding, doing and repeating that whole process. It doesn't take a lot of time, or retirement, or wealth, it just requires practice.
Most people really struggle to make money in permaculture because of this. In reality people don't want some pretty piece of paper, they want the transformation on the land. If the permaculturist knows how to do the pretty paper, but not how to create it on the land, they will quickly run out of work. So back to the day job so they can survive.
Permaculture was based on the practice that Bill Mollison grew up with. Responding to feedback of the practice is one of the 12 principles of permaculture. It's not any more theory firsrt than what you're doing.
Arh so you dont tell the how but pushing courses. Exit stage right
The price tag of $2,120 for your internet-based program is unaffordable for those who require it the most. If you truly care about the environment and humanity, this information should be accessible at no cost.
Most of our content is available for free in the community, have you joined? You will find free films, videos, webinars, stories, and all sorts of information to implement these types of changes on your landscape.
Additionally we have a global equity scholarship to make this program affordable for people of different income levels. It costs a TREMENDOUS amount of money to produce high level trainings like this course and our films. This is why we charge for the course, if we did not we could not produce anymore content (free or paid) and Water Stories would have closed shop a couple years ago.
Despite what it might look like from the outside Water Stories is a passion project of mine, and runs at a loss which I fund personally with my other business providing water cycle restoration services professionally. I have been working tirelessly on Water Stories for 3 years now without earning a single dollar from it. In fact, I've spent a great deal of my own personal earnings in order to create our content, course, and platform, of which everything but the course is free.
So as you can see saying that if I truly care about the environment and humanity I would provide this for free has struck quite a chord with me. I have put endless amounts of time, energy, and resources towards this project for free, and am happy to do so because it's something I believe in as I deeply care about the environment and humanity. I can provide my time and energy for this project, but I cannot do it alone and need a team to make it possible.
It's easy to say this training should be free when you don't understand the huge costs that were necessary to create it. While I work for free to spread this message, you won't find a team of people to develop award winning content and a custom action based course platform for free, hence we have to charge for the course.
For what the course provides it is available at an incredibly cheap price. All of the most essential information with none of the fluff, leaving you with an actionable skill that is both beneficial for the environment and economically generative. This course leaves you with a pathway and a plan for creating a livelihood healing the earth. That's a lot more than a University degree can provide you, and at a small fraction of the cost.
@@Water_Stories I will sign up and encourage others to do the same because I didn't know that. I also want to thank you for sharing this invaluable knowledge with everyone for free.
Good God. I guess everyone should donate their time and therefore not be able to make a living? Just because that's more convenient for you? WTF?
@@julieheath6335This is what you get from an environmentalist collectivist philosophy. Need is rewarded and competency is punished by increased duties.
@@julieheath6335Notice how the op changed his tune once Weiss pointed out that he operates Water Stories at a loss?
Sacrifice and need are their virtues. Their philosophy, when fully practiced, leads to death.
Did you happen to chat with fake or beginner permaculturists maybe ?
A lot of this holds true for even the more experienced designers and teachers. I feel lucky to have met many of the more well known permaculturists. And most of them I love dearly and deeply appreciate their work! But that doesn't mean that they necessarily have a lot of on the ground experience with practice in various scenarios (instead of design). The story I mention about the lack of test slices and failure of a project as a result was done by a very well known permaculturist that is one of PRI's certified instructors and one of the top permaculture instructors and designers on their continent. I'm not going to call out specific people, and I don't think that's helpful, I'm trying to call attention to a weak link, with the hope that with awareness it can improve and strengthen.
@@Water_Stories That's so condescending to even think that you have such an insight and perspective on Permaculture that you can point out for us what is weak in this art... that's and amazing amount of pride you display, whereas the points you list as pitfalls are actually founding elements of permaculture that are all approched with a way more subtle approach than you seem to show. Also you write and speak like you work well beyond those "more experienced designers and teachers", like you know them all. Water is a hanger in the wardrobe, no more no less.
@@plumerault I certainly don't mean it to be condescending. New vantage points almost always yield new information, and usually growth and development is uncomfortable. I can only speak to what I have seen on the ground. I bring this all up to hopefully make future designers more considerate of practice, experience, and nature.
"Water is a hanger in the wardrobe, no more no less"? That sounds like a very controlling and condescending attitude towards water, one that I do not personally share. Water is the blood of the earth, the foundational building block of life. To me that's a lot more than a hanger in a wardrobe...
Yikes...I think someone needs to introduce this speaker to confirmation bias. It's easy to cherry pick elements that will build up one's point of view while also picking elements that break down the opposing point of view. As @abbybrothers9888's comment below suggests, curiosity and adaptability are key.
your "permaculturists" who use plastic liners did they just use the name without any training/learning. Please see Geoff Lawton's greening the desert or his Zaytuna Permaculture farm. Like him I learnt off the father of Permaculture, Bill Mollison., Masanubo Fukuoka, Korean Farming methods even read about keyline farming P A Yoeman's and many others on my journey. When you unfairly cast disparity on a movement you will naturally evoke retorts. I will not bother to watch anymore.
The permaculturists I mentioned that use plastic liners actually TEACH permaculture, and they are some of the more popular permaculture teachers out there. So they are teaching lots of others to do the same thing. Good students learn both from their teachers' brilliance and their shortcomings.
I live in an urban area and have very sandy soils, I've created a lovely natural pond with an epdm liner that has brought an abundance of life to my garden and a habitat for so many frogs, dragon flies and insects so in my opinion there is a place for liner ponds, I would have definitely preferred to do a natural clay lined pond but in this setting that was impossible so it was either no pond or a liner pond
@@Plet_adventure yes I use old baths and kiddys paddle pool for the same reason but this is small scale backyard (also sandy soil) Not large earth works -dams nor swales where we move water slowly through the land.
Frances, it's probably gonna make him lots of youtube views and web marketing for his "theoretical online" courses to do simplyfied bashing like this.
Ha, you need a disclaimer to disclaim your disclaimer... :)
I really appreciate this talk, it was very illuminating !!!! Critique is so helpful even in things that we place full faith and trust in, so we can know and grow!!
I feel like you’re taking less advanced permaculturists and saying that’s what permaculture is. There’s a spectrum bro.
👍✌️
"Female children" is such a jarring, dehumanising term. How about calling them girls, or young girls, or even daughters?
#StopHuggingStartPlanting
😅wow, smart young man.
So my take away from this video is that permaculture is vastly over rated and there’s a better way.
I think you mean 'urbanization' and 'overpopulation' (and bad farming practices that also gave rise to the 'dust bowl') instead of colonization.
Nature also colonizes, and natural re-colonization is benificial.
Everybody needs to take responsibility for their direct surroundings. Too much focus on colonization, just like hyperfocus on CO2-emissions, creates a victim mentality and passiveness.
India and China would have become overpopulated by themselves for instance.
The issue that mustn't be glossed over is indigenous knowledge of landscapes and biomes was often far better for best practice cultivation, horticulture and conservation. Examples do vary, generally there is a much deeper understanding of the landscaped than the ever more scaled surplus monocropping of grains thing that emanated out from expansionist empires.
I agree a colony isn't necessarily a bad thing in of itself though, if it will adapt into a balanced, well integrated niche.
When people talk about "colonisation" it's generally in reference to a bunch of disruptive and exploitative practices in line with things like expansionist empires and proliferation of a all consuming form of capitalism, as such the bad farming practices that come with that and displacement of any prior methods of best practice and knowledge of local ecosystems/landscapes.
Climate change is a myth, in that we CAN do things naturally to make "climate" work for us... and to work with the local climate..
I think when the Bible tells us we are the stewards of the land (and nature more broadly), THIS is what is meant.
I learned a great deal just from your presentation.
On "colonialism": the problem you're exposing is the (natural, but incorrect) assumption that this new land will behave exactly the same easy my old land did.
No.
No, it won't. It's just as unique as each of us... But it CAN be tamed to suit our purpose, and should be. That's what it means to be a steward.
Thank you for this.
Who the hell is this guy
I don't know who you have been dealing with but they sound like a bunch of book smart monkeys.
True design goes far beyond the things you dwell on.
So you list off a bunch of mistakes and then claim these mistakes are aspects of Permaculture? You sound like you got beat up by a person that was into Permaculture and have held a grudge ever since. Good luck with that.