D&D Players, Is there such a thing as ethical necromancy?
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- BRAAAAAAIIINNNSSS… that’s what it takes to learn dark, arcane arts like necromancy. That INT score isn’t just for show, you know! While there are some morally neutral necromancy spells in DND, the most well known are… less than savoury. Raising the dead might sound badass to the disturbingly pragmatic adventurer, but what about the friends and family of the dead? What about the sanctity of life? The CHILDREN, think of the CHILDREN…
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Spare the Dying, Gentle Repose, Revivify, Speak with the Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection. All are Necromancy spells but are hard-pressed to be used for anything but the betterment of people's lives.
"Hmph. Should the sheep be offended when we make clothes of its wool? The snake be offended if we make use of its shed skin? The body is a tool used by the soul to interact with the material world. I merely repurpose a discarded tool no longer needed by its original owner." ~ a theoretical Necromancer character of mine.
Honestly the ethics of using a body are much less bad if you aren't using the soul but just the body. If you are just using raw magic or some homunculus soul to control the body.
Its when you are using actual souls and/or spirits is when you are starting to get into some evil stuff like eternal slavery and human experimentation
That's exactly how I played my good aligned Lizardfolk necromancer. Added onto that, he believed that to waste a body after killing it, regardless of it being humanoid or otherwise, was nothing less than disrespect to the departed, much like a hunter killing only for fun and not for food. If he was going to kill anyone, he was going to be sure to preserve their body (he always carried embalming tools and cloth bolts on him) so that they stayed in as good a shape as possible, while also making them as non-threatening as possible. He even dressed them up so that he wouldn't scare the children. Arguably one of my best characters ever.
I did run into an ethical necromancer player at one point. The way he played his character was that the necromancer was actually in league with a particular god of death, don’t remember which one, but he worked on giving departed souls a “second chance” of sorts. The undead that he raised had the souls of a departed person that this god of death was giving another chance to. If that undead did a good job, the soul inside was reincarnated.
Oh I can see it, the necromancer raises a war chief to help them fight against a greater evil. At the end of the battle, the war chief says goodbye to his loved ones, clan and gets his soul weighed by the god. The god admonishes the war chiefs actions but also commends others, In the end the war chief is set to reincarnate after x amount of years
@@jackmack4181 yeah, that sums it up
There's a minor DC hero called Ragman whose gimmick is something similar: the suit he wears (which gives him his name) allows him to bind souls to him and allow him to use their skills. He does this with those who were bad people in life so they can work off their bad karma by helping him fight crime.
Morals? Nah. I'm still gonna turn a whale skeleton into a sentient U-Boat.
Here I am thinking skeleton horses are the cats pajamas and you throw this at me?! What's next? You're going to tell me you use zombie cows as walking loot chests?
Really though, if anyone else has more 18int ideas like this, let me know.
I am flabbergasted and deeply in love with this idea 😂
Now enchant a dragon skeleton and turn the splitting ribcage into a bomb bay
Using animals isn't morally wrong, also neat
Remember, y'all, that Astral Projection, Clone, Blindness/Deafness, False Life, and Speak with Dead are all Necromancy spells from the Wizard and Warlock spell lists that don't tamper with the honor of those who have passed away.
Not to mention the fact that technically, an undead task force is far more humane than a living one.
Hey don't forget revitify
@@vampire9545 Right, yeah!! In the Cleric spell list you get even more necromancy spells like Raise Dead, Revivify, Resurrection, Spare the Dying, Gentle Repose.
also, revivify is necromancy
In DnD, raising dead says that you put an artificial(?) soul into your raised. The original soul is still in whatever afterlife, so you're not ripping them back and forcing them to fight for you. If you have a deed to the body, or can buy it, sure, make a skeleton or twelve. Undead are not sentient, as they have no real soul. The only exemptions to this are self inflicted undeaths, like lichdom or becoming that weird fluid revenge thing (Slithering Tracker, I think.)
TL;DR: At least in DnD, necromancy is as ethical as any other type or magic, as the only real problem is acquiring bodies.
Zombies, skeletons, and other minor undead are formed by binding a lesser spirit that reanimates the body. As I understand the spirits themselves are mindless but can form an ego based on the memories/experiences of the corpse so there might be a semblance of the once living person on the undead's mannerisms. Then there are other some types of undead such as vampires and liches that do retain the soul of the living person, though they are rarely "raised" by a necromancer. However, there are some mid level undead that DO retain their souls when raised (as far as I know), such as wights, ghouls, and mummies. I'd say that raising these types would make the necromancer evil, especially ghouls since they have an unsatiable hunger for flesh.
@@backonlazer791I have this headcanon that there’s two type of necromancy, the puppet type and the forceful type.
Puppet type is through use of one’s own mana to resurrect a corpse, depending on the level of the spell the undead could be as dull as shambling corpse or smart enough to think for itself. To add into this, repeated resurrection has a chance of creating an artificial soul giving the undead its own personality
The forceful type is forcibly grabbing the original or another living being soul and shoving it into corpse to pilot. Usually causing both the corpse and soul to be corrupted
Any other except -roofie magic- enchantment*
In the Forgotten Realms, the energy that animates undead comes from the negative energy plane, and negative energy, by its nature, is entropy and destroys positive energy (life). The spell "animate dead" specifically says that of you fail to reassert control over the undead by recasting it, the undead remain motionless but if anything alive comes near them, they seek to destroy it. And in the case of more powerful undead, the necromancer is essentially creating a link to the negative energy plane that directly hastens entropy of the material plane. Creatures like ghouls are driven by a ravenous hunger for positive energy and go out of their way to kill and consume life.
I'm not saying you can't have ethical necromancy, but at least in the base forgotten realms setting, necromancy being evil is very clear cut. Though this goes only for the "raising dead" kind.
@@MoonyMuffin enormous misunderstanding of what entropy is aside, the fact that a whole dimension of "evil energy that hates life" needed to be invented to post-hoc explain necromancy being evil demonstrates that unlike -roofie magic- enchantment you need to lore it into being unethical
My Bard often casts Animate Dead on the corpses of fallen enemies. Not to use them for "evil" purposes, but to use as backup dancers for the victory performance. After the celebration the zombies will either be ordered to walk into a fire or, depending on the party's mood, are ordered to fight each other while we get drunk and make bets on which one will win. I did decide to keep one particular zombie that I named Michael because he rolled a natural 20 on the performance roll. Best backup dancer ever!
"Depends on the setting" the discussion.
I recognize that song. As for the topic, morally good necromancy depends on the thought and consideration put into it. Undead as labor for menial/hazardous work? That needs oversight for the undead & procedures to either restrain or remove feral undead. Undead as redemption? That needs theological principles to determine what counts as redemption & what doesn’t. This is the philosophy major in me talking, but it’s worth considering.
Oh! I had a culture of necromancers that did so as a way to honor and live among their ancestors. When someone in this culture died, their body was decorated dia de los muertos style and were cremated, leaving only their bones behind. The paints and dye used would scorch brilliant patterns into the bone and bind the soul to the skeleton. If you chose to become a necromancer in this culture, you must 1. Consent to being raised by future generations so you may guide others as they guided you, 2. Raise only your ancestors bound to the same agreement and never any random corpse, and 3. Follow the time honored rituals and honorifics of their culture when it comes to treating the undead. DM and I agreed that if I forgo raising multiple undead with the raise dead spell and only raise 1 + another for every spell level higher to a max of 3, my skeletons were a bit tankier with hp, could be raised from any open, natural earth without actually targeting a skeleton, and when they’re killed, the disappear into the ground. The summoning goes from a minute to a full hour and the spell lasts 24 hours when used in this way, can be done in a short or long rest, they can speak telepathically with anyone within 60 ft, and while summoning, you can choose a skill or tool you lack proficiency in and you can then add your proficiency bonus to the skill or tool per skeleton summoned, kinda like a boosted version of the elven racial.
This Worked for me cuz I got an ethical necromancer with fun lore, boosted undead with increased abilities and hp without going too crazy, dm didn’t have to worry about a necromancer army of undead, we got proficiencies for niche situations like investigation or arcana, and skeletons mostly aided allies, would do background things in combat like evacuating civilians from a burning village, etc. it was pretty fun :))
Reminds me of obongo the kobold
Yes! I actually came up for the system in my own homebrew!
Mind you "Ethical" is relative, this is more "Legal" necromancy.
In my homebrew, Necromancers are called Undertakers. Their usual job is exactly as you guessed, preparing the dead for burial and setting up funerals. However there are some cases that maybe the family can't pay for a decent funeral, or it's a wanderer, convict, ect. So the Undertaker, in return for a proper/decent funeral, the dead can "pay" for their funeral by doing labor. The Undertaker raises the dead and leases out their labor to places, say a farm, a mill, warehouse, even as sailors or cowhands. Rather than pay the dead directly, the buyer pays the Undertaker for the labor, which in turn the Undertaker counts towards the debt of the dead. In most cases the dead pay off their debts and then their remains finally released and either cremated or laid in the original grave made for them. (The zombies/skeletons aren't brain munchers but more like the original form of zombies from Haitian folklore)
In most cases Undertakers are pretty lawful, cause if they're caught pulling fraud or the like, they themselves can become convicts. There's a whole set of rules they have to follow and a regulation agency as well as a registry they have to be licensed with, just like any funeral director. There are of course corrupt among them who have hidden ledgers and swindle families for exorbitant prices, but they are playing with fire if a family takes them to court.
So yes "Legal" necromancy, ethical? Again, just depends on your view point.
(Oh and there's occasions that an Undertaker might resurrect a dead pet or horse/mule. They aren't exactly like the original but does act somewhat like them enough to keep doing their job or soothe the distraught owner. These are usually acts of kindness or done for necessity)
the fabrication spell with cow bones or wood stone or metal to make bones remember the spell only say a pile of bone or a corpse doesn't say anything about what the bones are made of also bones are technically made of stone.
also, my favorite pc I've made was a good necromancer who ran an orphanage for what i believe to the sadist undead in the game the slaymate
Yes, consent from the party before death and avoid interrupting the soul cycle. Basically etch the knowledge & experience of an individual into the skeletal structure after death the bones keep or stay “animated”.
i have an undead ghost astral self monk (a homebrew race)
It’s their belief that being undead is the way to become closest to the astral self, and is the ultimately freedom from the world! You don’t need food, water, sleep, and most times shelter, so it supported their culture’s nomadic lifestyle! What better way to be untethered to the world than to literally not have a body hold you down from literally floating off into space or roam the world?
of course, they recognize that necromancy isn’t for a LOT of people in the new world (were sealed away for a longass time, and they don’t know how long for), and is respectful about not spouting their ideologies of necromancy practices, but still want to convince others of the benefits. It’s something they believe whole heartedly can help the old, sick, and weak travel the world without the burden of flesh!
Of course, when the world has been seen and life starts to become insanity, their culture has ritual suicide of spiritually entering the astral plane (Empty Body class feature), then disconnecting the tether that held them in the astral plane. It was their belief that their second death in the astral sea will preserve their spirit, forever resting in the metaphorical waves of endless space
I want to play a Necromancer who is inventing a spell to turn evil incorporeal undead into ghosts because then they at least have a chance to finish business and pass on.
Personally, he wants this because his father is a ghost that is tragically degenerating into a specter. But the long-term good it could do would go a long way and could even be the subject of adventures for others.
"Somebody gotta do it"
Some body you say?
😂
I have a character concept based on this of a necromancer who's god is a diety who is a judge of the dead and they animate evil being making them repay the evils they committed in life by serving good in dead like sacrificing them self to save a child or similar.
Technically, I heard that necromancy is linked to healing and I always went: As long as I’m alive, your not dying on me!
This exact debate really caused some interesting things in one of our campaigns. As it was a custom setting, the GM stated that necromancy was universally viewed as dark magic. Meanwhile one of the players had this idea of consensually bringing people back.
After some back-and-forth, the conclusion was never fully nailed down, but one of the major points was that people would be horrified at the desecration of corpses to a degree worse than they would be in medieval times. You see, in this setting we know all of the things that happen to corpses after death; all of the bacteria and insects and who knows what else is on those, and we do not want that walking through town.
It’s also one of the few things that can piss off the posse of perpetual pacifists known as priests.
Like any tool, it's a matter of how you use it. Just a more morbid and gross one than usual.
Given that baelnorns can be ethical liches of all things, an ethical necromancer shouldn't be too much of a stretch
Also, regarding creating intelligent undead, depends if the person is willing or not.
One last thing, healing tends to fall under necromancy as well given that it's life and death.
It used to. It's an evocation spell nowadays. Edition changes kind of shift discussion.
I say giving respect to the dead, like that one shot manga of a wizard reanimating their friends bodies so she could deliver them back home for a proper burial.
If I could homebrew a feat it would allow necromancers to talk to the spirits of the dead, and ask them permission to use their bodies as soldiers. If they accept, a decreased roll is needed and the undead might carry some characteristics. A denial causes a higher roll needed to resurrect the corpse and nothing will be added.
Hell I would love to see a story where the part meets the evil and good variants of healing and necromantic clergy’s. You have an evil clergy creating diseases and forcing life to live on, while the good necromancers are there acting like burial workers and the undead soldiers are given respect.
There was a famous Necromancer Jew like 2000 years ago that most everyone would say was a pretty standup dude.
OOH!! I might have a good one for this!
In a setting I built but never got around to running, there's a kingdom that is ruled by the Lich Queen.
In life she used to be just a kind necromancer who loved the people of her village very much and basically gave them the option to stay and assist their familys after death. Some of the villagers agreed and after being preserved and reanimated would work the fields alongside their childeren and grandchildren so they could have an easier life. This caught on as their undead bodies never tired and it was nice being able to chat with grandpa and grandma every once in a while. Even if they were just skeletons.
One day the king, who'd been cursed to go mad by a Hag, started sending his armies on wanton rampages and the village got caught in the crossfire and destroyed. The young necromancer rose up , joining and eventually leading the rebellion against the king, eventually even being crowned the new queen by her followers. She was originally going to imprison and enact a rather cruel punishment on the king's spirit, but after his death the curse had been lifted and his now sane ghost willingly serves penance in service to the woman who freed his people from his own tyranny. There's also vampires involved but I don't want this story to be TOO long.
Anyway, the necromancer established a kingdom that functioned similarly to how her old village was run but on a wider scale. Everyone would live their lives pretty much doing whatever they wanted, and offer thier bodies and souls to ten or so years of civil service after their death. After which point they'd be given the option of continuing to assist the country via more civil service, or to be laid to rest in the catacombs beneath the country, only to be called on in times of great crisis. Even if they choose to continue to serve, they can choose to rest at any time, either because they just don't want to work anymore or because they feel no connection with the newer generations of their family. The offer of eternal afterlife is considered a privlidge however, and is not given to those who commit heinous crimes and acts of wanton violence. Eventually the necromancer grew quite the loyal cabal of followers and ascended to lichdom before old age could claim her.
Now she is the Lich Queen, ruling eternally and benevolently over her kingdom. Her country's culture is deeply rooted in ancient traditions and the pride of serivce. The living will often spend their free time honing their skills by whatever means possible to prepare for eternal service to their country. Knights compete with eachother and spar with their anscestors for the honor of becoming Death Knights and in hopes of joining the queen's guard, some of whom still serve from the time of the rebellion centuries ago. Scholars research for decades to join the council of Liches and further magical research. Even humble farmers watch the land and skies to hone their craft so that they may use their knowledge to ensure the country never wants for food or natural resources. No facet of skill is considered unworthy of praise, and all are honored in death. The privlidge of helping your family and your country is paramount to the people of the kingdom.
At this point, the Lich Queen is practically a minor diety, watching over and caring for all in her domain for all eternity. And gods help anyone who invades her lands as they will have to face not a hoard of mindless undead, but countless generations of dedicated soldiers who need not sleep, eat, nor fear death, and will be fighting with the furvor of those who deffend their homes and families.
I had a whole character whose entire arc was based upon this. He made the journey from grieving widower who wanted to bring his wife back as a sentient undead, to morally compromised and bitter when it didn't work, to almost raising an army to destroy everything in his sight, including the bad guys. Finally, he settled on dedicating his mastery of the art to creating a new city with the largest library of necromancy literature so that the art can be better understood and a universally agreed set of moral ethics could be developed around it.
in my dnd campaign i made a order of monks and knights that still guard the Library they used to work at and have a lich that just Devours souls of those he deems unworthy of the library think the owl dude of avatar the last air bender and legend of Kora But doesn't mind if the knowledge is used for battle since He knows what's going so on in the world because he used to be human himself and honestly he usually visits city's and ask for either the souls of there prisoner's in exchange for having some one come over and study at his library every 10-20 Years and if they change it to send a letter in advance the whole library is his phylactery so ya gotta destroy the whole thing and all the books inside of it or Any book that used to be a library is a spawn point for him
I once played a necromancer who was an ethically good necromancer as he would use Speak with Dead so that he could ask for permission to reanimate them. If the soul refused he would not reanimate their body. He would put them to rest properly so that nobody can disturb their slumber. However, if the soul had other wishes it wanted to fulfill like family they wanted to protect or a goal they wanted to achieve, he would reanimate them until they completed it at which point their contract was finished so he would put them back to rest. There was one time though at a certain point where we needed help in a dire situation and I asked if I could reanimate a body to which they refused and due to the situation he did it anyway, his most unethical moment as a necromancer, and because of this many of the spirits started to deny his requests until he atoned for what he did wrong. Basically until I made things right with the undead they weren't giving me permission to raise anymore leaving my necromancer to question if he should continue to do so anyways or how he could put things right. Eventually he fixed the problem by making a plea to the god of undead Kelemvor where he explained his actions and was forgiven for his one moment of lapsed judgment. After that the spirits allowed me to raise them again, it was awesome and so fun to play.
The idea I have for my world is necromancy was initially used in celebrations similar to dia de los muertos. Death would be celebrated and communities would bring back the dead to celebrate their life and reunite with loved ones. One people figured out the potential of what can be done, that's when it became evil and used with ill intent. Some places would still practice the old ways of necromancy much to the surprise of those who've only seen the harm it can cause.
My favorite character I made was a good necromancer. This was in a pathfinder game which setting involved some Egyptian influences in areas. The character started as a typical Necromancer with a "body guard" that was just a skeleton in full armor so people wouldn't see that it was really a dead guy. What it became was a Necromancer that believed that necromancy should be used to reanimate the bodies of the wicked so that they may atone for their sins in life by doing good deeds in death. My character would carry various bones of specific "evil" npc's that each had full back stories and use them to animate his undead bodyguard. Now where this was taken to the next level was in the roleplaying aspect. After the undead had fulfilled enough good deeds, the soul would be judged and move on. During the next long rest my character would have a dream of Anubis judging the soul of the dead, and once their fate decided the soul would give a simple thank you to my character as they were able to move on into the after life. Upon waking up the next morning my bodyguard would be just a pile of armor, waiting for the next soul to don the armor and atone for their sins in life after death.
Thats a cool idea, I think It would work well for an anthology series, or a roguelike or something like that
My necromancer only works with ghosts and skeletons. She works to befriending the undead so any ghosts she summons are answering her call willingly. As for the skeletons well.... they're just bones. And she always makes sure to return them to their proper resting place.
I made an npc in my homebrew campaign who was a reformed necromancer. She once tried the undead army stick. Then was rehabilitated and used her magic to run a funeral home, letting folks get a last moment with a loved one they couldn't see before the death
Look man, when you got into a fight with me and my party, you lost the right to life *and* death.
Your souls getting added to the fighter's cursed sword, the warlock is casting danse macabre on your corpse.
Me using your blood to summon demons to attack your friends is the least of your worries.
I could see if something like that one in the movie that lets you answer questions being used for investigations or to record people's stories. Maybe it can be used to give the family closure about something with the person who has passed away.
My own setting has a deity of "pragmatic but respectful Necromancy"
Sen Tenlar, also known as "The Circling Bones" represents a practical use of the dead but *strictly* only the material, as in to raise or utilize the corpus of a deceased persom, never their soul or spirit. In fact, ome of it's main tenets is to soothe restless spirits and help them move on.
And even when the body is used or brought to unlife, it's crucial to treat what you take/use with respect, do not waste and degrade what has been given to you.
Also his form is that of a massive Skeletal Vulture which is just pretty cool
In my current campaign, resurrection magic falls under the umbrella of necromancy
This deserves way more views!
I once played a 16yr old half elf bard necromancer. Who was raised by ghosts at an abandoned university ("oh, frat boy ghosts" was a catch phrase for the party). If we were attacked then I had "friends" that could do trap detection. This was unnerving for some in the party. Something about a 12th lvl bard and 16yr old who had zombies helping, that was a big nope! Others in our group thought it was hilarious. We were all good by time we reached lvl 16....I joined the party at lvl 9.
Chronicles of the Necromancer had a neat take on it. Instead of being your classic evil wizard enslaving the dead, the MC was a healer that could communicate and persuade ghosts to help him. He could technically create physical undead but his world treated that as pure evil, and enslaving spirits was just as vile but asking the ghosts of dead soldiers to help was fine, but exceptionally rare.
The problem with that is in 5e, Summon Undead costs 300gp per casting and is a Concentration spell which makes such a playstyle impractical.
I was actually working on a prestige class built around non-evil necromancy. Their gimmick was raising intelligent undead by invoking a soul and, with its permission, implanting it into a raised corpse.
That Elder Scrolls one is actually how I ended up with my Khajiit necromancer. Since in the game the necromancer class has an entire skill line dedicated to healing and supporting their party, it made sense he'd end up syncing up with the Order of the Hidden Moon like that. An entire order of necromancers dedicated to redeeming evil spirits and helping to use the power of soul energy to help and heal both the living and the dead...
I just figure the fact the undead they summon only last around 20-30 seconds at most is because he gives them just enough life energy to do what they need to before they burn out and otherwise don't possess any kind of real will or mind of their own. Except in the case of his pet ghost-skeever, Sheogo-rat... Because even in death it still likes cheese.
In one side-quest I remember there's actually a guy who comes up to you as a talking, walking skeleton, looking for his dog. He felt bad about his encroaching age and his dog's so he paid a necromancer to enchant a necklace with a spell of undeath. At the moment of his death it consumed his flesh and used that energy to bind his soul and mind to his skeleton. You end up finding his dog mere moments before it too passes and the process happens to it too, creating a happy skeleton dog eager to spend eternity exploring the world with its master. No more aching joints and hurting body to get in the way.
Speak with the dead, and indeed vampiric spells are prime examples. In one campaign i made in Chult a city state used a necromantic transfer to heal injured people by harming their attackers.
Depends on the setting and the dm.
PANR has tuned in.
My necromancer only reanimates the bodies of bad guys.
I had an idea for a campaign based around this idea actually. With the players having to decide whether or not to back the king, or some force rising to fight them (probably a richous religious crusade or something).
The previous king died, and was replaced by his brother, a powerful wizard who was recently outed as a litch. Now, the previous king wasn't assassinated or anything, he died in battle against a rival nation. The new king, who, as mentioned, is a litch, uses their necromantic powers to raise armies of undead to defend the kingdom against the invaders who slew his brother, before sending all the undead back to their graves to rest.
The people aren't quite sure what to feel about this, because on the one hand, you have all the negative stereotypes and superstition around undead and litches, but on the other hand, the new king is benevolent, and managed to fend of invaders without sending the peasants out to die in droves on the battlefield (a point the new king emphasizes in propaganda). In fact, other than a standing guard for the towns and cities, the kingdom no longer requires any living men at arms since whenever a hostile force attempts something, the litch king shows up, has the local graveyard stand up, go fend of the invaders, then go lay back down.
Now, you might rightfully wonder how a "ethical litch" keeps their phylactery full. Well... they're a king of a medieval kingdom. Medieval kingdoms tend to have a lot of crimes punishable by death. So instead of the condemned being hanged or beheaded or any other number of horrible medieval execution methods you can think of, they're brought to the litch king to kill to fuel his phylactery.
This post reminds me of a D&D story where the necromancer raised as many dead as possible, then loaned them out to farmers as a cheap, inexhaustible work force till he had enough money to buy a farm of his own. You don't have to pay them, they never get tired, they're cheap and easy to make and maintain. You can absolutely use undead to better the community!
For inspiration, try watching some Chinese fantasy movies. Necromancers there tend to hunt down jiang-shi and ghosts to put them to their rest, and occasionally, use their powers to relocate the dead to better, sometimes more auspicious, burial places. They also, often enough, have a good enough working knowledge of Geomancy in order to improve such burial sites' auspiciousness, thereby reducing the likelihood of the dead becoming restless.
A few years ago one of my players came to me with an idea for her third character. (I run a game with 5 players and they each have 3 characters. Its as chaotic as it sounds, but it lets them play a bunch of different styles and explore different character types. I've been able to keep them from going to crazy. Mostly.) My player wanted to be an ethical necromancer. Those were her exact words. Let's just say, i was skeptical.
The big bads of this campaign are all undead; Lich, Vampire, Death Knight, Mummy Lord, Alhoon (lich-y mindflayer that i buffed because of they kinda fill the role of a lower level lich-like enemy) and a Doomsphere (ghost beholder.)
But, even with my skepticism, i heard her out. She immediately tackled my personal biggest problem with necromancy; consent. People love to say, "the body isn't that person anymore, its even in the rules!" And? There are laws (at least where i live) about taking organs from the dead. You have to opt IN to that, its not the default! This ain't any different!
But, in order for one of her sect, who are followers of the Raven Queen btw, to raise the body of a sentient being, they have to have given prior consent by signing a magical contract that you have to be WILLING to sign. No mind magic, no societal pressure, otherwise the contract destroys itself when you try to sign.
There's also the expectation that the necromancer maintain the bodies they raise; stripping it to bone so there's much less of a chance of someone getting a disease, keeping the bones in working order and when either the contracted time is up or the body becomes to worn to continue, the body is put to rest.
This woman could have practiced law. She managed to make, granted VERY SITUATIONAL, arguments for the ethicalness of Soul Cage and Magic Jar. I worked with her to flesh out her characters culture and Willow Heartsong, Hexblood Necromancer Wizard/Grave Domain Cleric of the Raven Queen was born and unleashed her Pastel Goth perkiness on my world. And its been extremely enjoyable to watch.
Morally good necro? Yes. Give the dead new life, sounds pretty good to me
The concept of ethical necromancy reminded me of a tumblr post I saw about the idea of a necromancer lawyer, which went sorta like "As a necromancer, I literally summon my first witness: THE VICTIM!"
in answer to your question, Hollowfaust.
If you know, you know.
Want ethicacy? Easy! Just make it saint!
The moral issue comes from rituals that we perform usually. If those rituals are performed regularly and responsibly, it becomes a symbol, which is more acceptable. You can justify it however reasonably, as you want, as long as you convince the masses. You also can have cool undead, which appear in angelic form, at least pretend to. God of death probably not as bloodthirsty, when you give him more easy ways to get bodies through communal rituals and concent.
A friend played an ethical necromancer, named Bon Bon, in a two shot. She kept an entourage of skeletons from people who've committed extremely heinous crimes.
When we asked her about her band of skeletons she said, "This is Jarren and Malik, they were mass murderers. Esperanza, who harmed children... and Gary! He was the worst of all. He put tomato sauce in his cereal. Absolute psycho. Oh, and he murdered a few nobles or something."
Wish we could've played a full campaign with Bon Bon.
And I was about to get into how TES gives us some good examples of ethical necromancy when I saw the last bit was for ESO Elsweyr. Dunmer culture also show an ethical side to necromancy, even if the other races don't see it that way. They have their own version of necromancy, which they call Sacred Necromancy, where they use the bodies and souls of their ancestors to guard their family tombs. The key difference between Sacred Necromancy and regular Necromancy, is that their ancestors consent to having their remains used to guard their family tombs. Hell, if it wasn't for Sacred Necromancy, the Ghostfence wouldn't have existed, meaning Dagoth Ur would've been able to spread his influence, and Corprus, all over not only Morrowind, but potentially all of Nirn.
I mean, Wiz from Konosuba was a necromantic lich who used her powers to help guide lost souls to the afterlife.
The best way I've seen this ruled before is rooted in Elvish lore, where you can opt to become what is basically a wraith that defends sacred burial sites and the like. This is NOT taken lightly, as it means giving up your immortal soul and any chance you'd ever have of being among your Gods, which, may I add, are all ascended Elves in the Seldarine pantheon, and instead devoting yourself to preserving the sanctity of Elvish tombs and historical sites. The interesting part of this is that you're still a fully sapient undead, not a mindless beast concerned only with tormenting the living. You have a mind and a will and you can still talk to people.
In my world, or rather, village, i havent expanded it to much yet, the villagers, are extremely welcoming to everyone, human and non humans such as goblins, troll, lizardfolk hags and so on…as loong as they are friendly, and wishes to live peacefully, this also extends to more supernatural individuals, ghosts, zombies, and even skeleton,s they are basically treated like elderly, meaning they are not at all required to work, tho it is apreciated. and are usually granted alot of respect. Due to their age, and wisdom. There is even a legend of a very cheerfull happy, eternally young and sprung vagabond necromancer, traveling the world with hes undead family, vacationing and relaxing, if he feels up for it, or sees someone who has lost a loved one, he will ressurect them no questions asked. HOWEVER! the people resurected by him, gets back their soul, memories, emotions, and most important of all, free will, one of my npc, villagers is actually a skeleton, resurected by him. alltho due to hes lack of vocal cords he is mute, he can still see, and hear, and to some degree even feel, he spends hes afterlife helping hes undead necromancer brother who at this point is just a head in a birdcage, to help runn hes weapons and armor shop.
I somewhat recently played a half troll nectomancy wizard who was the actind director of a undead theathre group.
I had an idea for a millitary unit of soliders who sign to service in death with the stipulation that there pay goes to there mortal descendents until the contracted time is up
If Necromancy itself doesn't have some 'use necromancy you cause the galaxy to die'... Then yes. My favorite one actually had necromancy so common that only the rich had their bodies destroyed as the dead were used to help do the grudge work (farming, mining, dumb labor work) as they thought they were 'too good' to have their corpse be seen working around like the common person.
If it is non-sentient then not that different than golems. If they are sentient then it's tricky... as it's a question of if you are bringing back the dead soul, making a new soul, or using the corpse to place a different soul into the body.
Mostly a rules as setting and rules of society.
"Think of the children" their corpes are too small to be useful!
My take on "ethical necromancy" is that it requires several rules should be made and followed.
Which would be,
1) Prior consent from the individual in question.
However I don't think it requires the consent of the family as it's not their (un)life & therefore should have no say.
2) It should be a non-sentient type of undead if the necromancer is intending to use them for labor or battle. Exceptions would be sentient undead which do so of their free will.
3) If the one being raised is a sentient undead that it must be a type that is going to be a type with sufficient self control to not harm others without good reason and have it's soul intact.
4) All sentient undead have the same rights and protections as a living person.
5) Necromancers have the responsibility to keep up with the "maintenance" & if necessary the destruction of any undead under their control unless there is a legitimate reason they can't.
Such as themselves dying which case all non-sentient undead should be destroyed or if possible transferred to another necromancer.
6) Non-sentient undead are kept on a very tight leash so as to prevent things like wandering hordes or undead attacking people.
7) The rules above should be strictly enforced by local law enforcement with extremely severe consequences for breaking any of the rules.
In one Campaign i am a subject of ethical Necromancy, but let me explain this. In Lore is the Empire from my Char since aeons gone. But this is what the cyclus wants. In short is the cyclus the Theorie, that a civilisation comes, prosper, a high archieves but then declines and dies. So can a new Race become powerful.
So this is what happened every Time to a Species but the People from my Char belive in improvement. Every Cylcus should give much as possible informations to his precessors, so the doesn't need to make the same mistakes as them. And second needs the Power of their Kings protection, because their energy is bound to the cylcus.
To archieve both exist the Tomb Guard. A Unit of Soldiers and Priest who a voluntary gives up their mortality to serve the cyclus for eternity. This is for them both a Honour and a Sacrifice. Yes the "live" forever, but the see their own Species decline and they are for eternity a relict of old. This is for them the "True Necromancy" also a Necromancy in which the specific individium prevails and exist forever. The "classical" necromancy is known as "dark Necromancy" a false magic who can't hold the Person but merely uses the Bodies like a Puppetmaster.
I hope it is for you understandable, english is not my first language.
Highly setting-specific.
I consider ethical necromancy to require two things. Rule#1, all bodies/materials used for necromancy must be ethically sourced, ie they are sourced from those who died either of normal causes (old age or sickness) or from those who have committed crimes heinous enough to be put to death. At the very least, their death wasn't caused by you or those affiliated with you, and must have had a contract signed prior to their death that surrenders their body into your care post mortem. Rule #2, no summoning, conjuring, or creation of higher undead with clear sapience/higher intelligence, which denotes the formation of an independent soul.
To expound on Rule #2, in my general TTRPG headcanon, all summoning/creation necromancy (and some conjuration and abjuration spells) are further subdivided in low-,intermediate-, and high- tiers based on the types of creatures summoned/created. Low-necromancy uses the remnants of the soul left when a person dies to condense a "core" around a spell matrix/magic circle that animates an undead. In this way, the undead functions more akin to a golem, and as there's no actual messing around with a person's immortal soul, this level of necromancy is largely acceptable.
Intermediate necromancy is where things start to get dicey, as the soul remnants of several individuals (at least) are gathered together to form a pseudo-soul and the gaps are filled in with an abundance of necrotic energy supported by a more complex spell matrix/magic circle. This enables the Intermediate undead to follow more complicated strategies and function with some level of autonomy, but they are still technically not sentient, just intelligent. The main sticking factor for these is that, while the necromancer still hasn't technically done anything unethical, Intermediate undead have the very real chance of their pseudo-soul sublimating into a real soul, and one with necrotic/negative energy supporting it at the foundation, which is where all natural undead's eternal hatred/yearning for life comes from. As a result, this level of necromancy is both fround upon, scrutinized, and policed heavily, but is still allowed.
Then we have high-tier necromancy, and at this point, there's no two ways about it; your necromancer has willfully crossed the line into the territory of the taboo, and the necromancer in question has created a fully sapient, fully autonomous undead life with a soul supported by and infused with negative energy at its core, making them with clear malicious intent towards anything that lives. Congratulations, the Vengeance Paladin Inquisitors and Death Domain will be knocking on your door shortly, and no, there's no arguing your way out of your imminent )and possibly immediate) execution.
Is it possible? Yes. Two examples spring to mind. 1) D&D Eberon's setting has a nation where the military of a particular country all WANT to be raised as undead in order to continue protecting their country. They even have a paladin prestige class called the Bone knight I believe. The other example is in the anime Goblin Slayer. The draconic/lizard-man shaman character frequently summons a skeletal warrior using the bones of his ancestors. No one around him ever bats an eye at this and the rest of the people around him come from all sorts of races so it's not just a racial bias.
I had a necromancer that tried to get permission to raise an undead army to defend a capital city from a different undead army. He got thrown in jail for admitting to practicing necromancy.
What about some kinda transmutation spell? Like turning dirt or wood into bone and flesh to then animate?
I (from my perspective, that is a bit unusual for real life, but is completely different from the D&D commoner) would think about how hard it is to create constructs in contrast to how hard it is to raise a mindless undead. If creating constructs in bulk is non-realistic in a short term but necromancy is, and a lot of mindless constructions are needed now to preserve lives of the living - yes, let's raise some dead.
Also, RAW you can use some spare bones for skeletons, not necessarily human, at which point it kinda is just a construct. But it doesn't remove the risk of it wreaking havoc if the necromancer wouldn't dispose of it after using.
If not to talk about creating or summoning undead, most necromancer spells just do damage ("weapons are evil and possessing them is unethical" is legit believe, but in this case, this discussion isn't good anywhere)
I played a lawful evil necro i only turned monsters and followed the laws of where i was the reason i was evil was that ibwas using forbidden magic for the game setting and he died trying to defend a village and my group got seperated and my skeletons were beaten with some ogers club on my turn rolled a 1 and dropped my bag of holding that had my zombies the oger crushed me with the same club😢 i really liked that character
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned Marona from Phantom Brave.
I mean... ask for volunteers? Legit wonder what a death gods reaponse would be to people consenting to it in life... and now suddenly im remebering the geista from Inistrad, and how by the 3rd time weve gone there, the geists are legit forming legions to safegaurd humanity and train them to fend off the horrors of the night since the Eldrazi invasion and death of the primary angelic gaurdians of the plane
my thought is this. A realm decided that wars tore families apart so they chose to raise every dead citizen to employ in the army. there fore the tradition is to bury the deceased's smallest finger or toe.
sure there can be ethical Necromancy transplanting limbs for example alittle Necro magic means a limb or other lost part van be transplanted or re-attached with no fear that the body will reject it. it dosen;t always have to be a bone boy army.
Dust. Dust is the biggest source of human body parts. Just merge enough dust to form a body. You can restore a corpse, so why not just create one from the least morally dubious source of human remains?
It's certainly possible but I've seen a number of proposed ideas that read more as rationalizations than anything else.
My cleric doesn't touch anything stronger than revivify because he believes the soul has been taken up by their god after that. I haven't yet told other players that he won't have Raise Dead or Resurrection.
I am just imagining a society where Necromancy is legal, as long as it doesn't bind the soul. And Guards doing regular checks on any necromancer to double check. Knowing bureaucracy it would require some paperwork as well.
A guard stops a necromancer who has zombies pulling his cart, skimming through some permits: "Alright everything seems in order so far, but I just have to make sure, none of these still have a soul in them, correct?"
Necromancer: "Oh no sir! Of course not. That would be so very immoral!" *A zombie looks at the guard and acts like it is trying to mouth something*
G: "Alright then. Just remember to keep them away from drinking water and food supplies."
N: "Of course sir!" *quickly gets his zombies moving before they could try something."
In a military setting, I could see an army asking if soldiers consent to being raised to continue fighting. Anyone who agrees gets an extra payout sent to their next-of-kin as compensation for the use of their remains.
Ethical Necromancy? There was, when Healing spells were still part of Necromancy school
From what I can tell a corpse is meat, the balls in the other court to explain why it's wrong.
It depends on the setting, in some necromancy rips a soul from the afterlife, corrupts it and removes its free will
No. It's mental gymnastics
4:39 gets it
I say make them a medic, plus, who ever said it was humans they were using necromancy on
Say it with me now: "It depends on the setting." If it's some Might and Magic logic where the souls are called into the corpse to animate it against their will and slay their fellows, then it's so messed up that all the talk of "Enchantment is evil because it messes with free will" gets completely eclipsed. If you're basically doing a spooky version of levitation to make a body move like a body, then it's just macabre puppeteering and it's an issue with social norms. That being said, Necromancy is probably the most "magic must defeat magic" school, where there's necromancy magic designed to both control and defeat undead. If you're the Witch Hunter type that has a spell turn bleached bones into powder to destroy evil skeletons, that's perfectly acceptable.
My Necromancer is that latter type that hates the undead because her father and a necromancer faced each other in a magical combat so tense that it left the area suffuse with Wild Magic and left them both mindless zombies. She uses his salvaged spellbook to study corpse animation so she can defeat any like the one that destroyed her father, the most she gets out of casting Animate Dead is learning exactly how the Dead is Animated and then destroying the result. The end goal is to find some arcane method of resurrection using a powerful spell with aspects of Magic Jar, Soul Cage, Simulacrum, and various other evocation, conjuration, and transmutation principles to call the soul into a body recreated from nearby matter. Which as I've brewed up requires 25,025gp of diamonds and silver, will always rez you like Raise Dead at 1 HP with the -4 to all rolls, but very inefficient for the spell level and has death limits of 1 day, 1 year, and 100 years + un-undeadifying for spell levels 7, 8, and 9. Still messed up to use half a troll to revive someone, but the troll was dead anyway.
In 2e the usual forms of healing were necromancy
Now I feel old
This is SUCH a long answer.... I'm tempted to make a video just to address it.
ok, short version~
1. 5e says ANIMATE DEAD imbues the body with energy. It's just turning the body into a robot. This is just a matter of hygiene & satisfaction.
2. If the original spirit/soul is forced back into the body, this is problematic. If it's of their own choosing, great! If it is done unwillingly, BOOOOO!
3....ish? A soul bound to a body to fulfill a contract isn't an evil action (work the fields so you can see your grandkids), but it's not exactly good, either. Also, what if you don't allow the original spirit into it's body, but just USE the body to house another spirit? Once again; not exactly BAD, but... kinda' ICK.
Necromancer? You ment late healer.
Necromancy would really be like using someone's body for science with their permission after they perish, except instead of using them for science their used for things like labor or as soldiers. Otherwise, necromancy is just desecration of a corpse, which I believe is immoral.
taxidermy, thanatopraxy and respect for the dead in general
Absolutely. The soul leaves the body after death; skeletons, zombies, and mummies are no different than automata/constructs in that way. (Ghosts, shades, spirits, etc are souls, so not so much there)
In fact, I would argue that it's unethical to NOT use Necromancy sometimes, like in a kingdom that could use Necromancers to create a workforce for free. If they choose to keep a lower class of peasant laborers instead so that the rich nobles can tax them and keep them poor, that is unethical. Just one example.
It only takes 10-20 seconds of a voice to get a decent AI rendering of that voice... 1 to 5 minutes of recordings would allow AI to make it nearly flawless.
Ravinka? Its rav-nic-a
Of corse necromancy and necromancers aren't inherently evil, necromancy is just a tool (assuming we're not talking about enslaving good unwilling souls for ghosts and stuff).
the easiest answer is CONSENT
if the departed consent to have their bodies, and even their souls, messed with after they have moved on, then anyone who complains can GTFO
obviously, there is a lot of nuance and exceptions to be had here, such as consent given under duress not counting, but as a general overview, consent is key
alternatively, if you want a more lawful approach, look to the lore in Diablo on Necromancers
they do not refer to themselves as necromancers (in fact, few do, and it is considered derogatory) but rather Priests of Rathma. that's right, the closest equivalent to necromancers of Diablo is not any sort of wizard, but a mix of Blood and Death domains cleric (may have to do that for a dichotomous character at some point)
for reincarnate, you need a piece of the body of the deceased.
it's quite a good idea if that body can walk around and fight until sombody can cast reincarnate on a small bit.
afterwards, the rest can still be used. skeletons should work even without parts of their head.
I played a Lawful Good Necromancy Wizard who, as part of his work as a lawyer, reanimated victims with False Life spells (the DM added the False Life part) to give them the chance to testify against their murderers. So yes, I came up with a way to do ethical necromancy.
This is merely a twist on Speak with Dead
@@MorinehtarTheBlue True. And I did use Speak with Dead quite a bit. But the question asked about ethical necromancy, not creative necromancy ;)
Brian, I love you, man. I'm not trying to be rude in the slightest, but after hearing you butcher the word, Ravnica, it is pronounced, RĂV-ni-KUH, not ruhv-INK-uh.
No, there is no ethical necromancy. The best you can do is almost neutral.
"I am the resurrection and the light. He who puts faith in me, even though they perish, will return to life!"
God is the original necromancer.
No.