What are the best screws for MDF edge grain? (part 2 of 2)
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- čas přidán 5. 11. 2018
- Last week we started having a look at various different screws in the edge grain of MDF, all screwed in to the wood without using a pilot hole. This week we're repeating the tests but this time using a 2mm pilot hole for each screw. I'll then take you through the results and chat about my chosen 'go to' screw for the edge of MDF board - and it's not the TurboGold 4.5 x 45mm any more! If you're in part of the world where you can't get hold of TurboGold screws, you're looking for 4.0 x 50mm carbon steel wood screws with a self-drilling tip and a rifled shank. They're yellow zinc passivated but other than that there's nothing special about them.
Part 1 of this test: • What are the best scre...
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#MDF #Screws #TestTuesday - Jak na to + styl
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Start of tests: 2:36
Summary of Results: 11:00
Geeky Results Analysis: 13:58
Wrapping Up: 33:36
I am leading a group project today and you SAVED me from pilot holing every single screw into the MDF! LIFESAVER!
Brilliant video, made an informed choice on screws for my project as a direct consequence of this video and it made all the difference on the job! Thanks for the effort that went into this.
Gosh Andy your merch is fantastic and such good value - my order is on its way. And it is so good to see the results of the screw score tests. Absolutely no one else is doing tests like this so its good you can devote so much of your time to sharing this info. BTW the Americans use different screws to us in the UK so maybe you should do a test for the US audience (which I am sure is significant). Keep up the good work.
Thanks for your effort to produce the video and for sharing the results.
No worries! 👍
surprising results! cheers, Andy!
👍👍
Well done Andy - very enlightning
Cheers Norman! 👍
Fascinating committment, thanks for the knowledge shared.
Brilliant Andy,just about what i expected! Well executed buddy!👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Cheers Alan! 👍
Awesome video! Thanks from Texas!
Utterly nuts. I loved it. Thanks for the vid.
No worries Peter! 👍
For me the Spax is the winner because it is the only one that did not split the MDF without the pilot hole
Great video. Thanks, Andy.
Cheers Mark! 👍
Thank you! Very helpful and interesting.
Thanks, Great Channel, just found a few days ago, I wondered what would happen if after you drilled a pilot hole and then put a small amount of glue in , if some of the poorer results would improve by any small or large amount. I do know you said pilot hole was unnecessary. Thanks again for your channel, I've learned a lot .
I remember test Tuesday!!
Great test Andy 👍 I always pilot hole more for the split factor rather than the strength, I’ll get the strength anyway, I keep finding a bump either side of the panel if I don’t. MR MDF is a must for all carcasses, the other stuff MDF is just cardboard. I Tel my apprentices to Test everything though and you did an excellent job of that. Thank you for sharing 👍🔨📐😄
Cheers Gary! I need to check for the bump - seen that with some screws but didn't notice one with the 4 x 50mm TurboGold - will check that one! I honestly don't use screws in the edge of MDF that often - normally just brad / biscuit / glue. Hope you're well! 👍😀
The “split factor” is a key determinant of strength, though. Split wood is much weaker than in split wood all else being equal.
I'm glad I watched this. Why waste time drilling pilot holes, when the results are similar or even worse in many cases. You saved me some time. :)
Andy... to me this speaks to the integrity (or otherwise) of the mdf... seems like the materials inclination to de-laminate & split is the most important lesson learned here...
It would explain how a little greater depth = more consistency???
Great series of tests! Any chance you would do a similar analysis of pilot hole screws in MDF?
The test you did was to prove which one holds more weight, but in reality which one do you recommend that will drive into the edge of the mdf without showing any signs of splitting?
Spax
Great video.
Cheers Sir! 👍
In short that tells us that self tapping screws and pilot holes do indeed reduse the risk of splitting but pilot holes might slightly reduce the screw's torque load. Very interesting. Thanks for that colorful demonstration : )
No worries! 👍
THANK YOU
Good thorough analysis... One can always do more but this gives a very good sense of consistency and what to expect with the various screws. Curious what the various grades of MDF will show...
👍👍
Hi, I’m a bit late to the party, but investigating what screws I should use into end grain MR MDF to hold the Peanut 2 fixings. These are a great set of tests and all credit to you for taking the time to do them. One factor I’m thinking that might skew the results is the degree by which the pulling force is perpendicular to the edge of the MDF. Looking at the two little angle brackets you use, I’m wondering what happens when they don’t quite see even force distribution across the two, either caused by the chain being slightly off centre when pulling or the fact that the brackets are not a perfect mirror (one being on top of the other causes a slight difference in length to hole). I’m thinking this might be the biggest cause of splitting, as the screw twists slightly as it is pulled. It’s probably quite difficult to apply a perfectly perpendicular force without a fancy setup. I’m going to probably try a few cruder tests with Peanuts and 3.5 x 50mm. I’ve Turbogolds and some older no6 x2” that I can try. I’d prefer no countersinking head as the Peanut might get damaged by it. Thanks again for the insight 😊
You can get 'tapered' torx head drivers that will hold the screw but if all the other screws you use are a different head then it just becomes a pain. In Canada we DIY's prefer #2 Robertson for most of our projects :) I agree that drywall screws shouldn't be used, they are brittle and snap easily when over tightening or loaded. Great info and thanks for the hard work doing all those tests!
I use the Robertson for pocket head screws - quite like them but Pozidriv is used for most stuff over here. Cheers! 👍
I don’t think brittleness of screws is relevant with mdf. It’s so weak.
Another aspect is resistance to lateral (shear) loads. Once the board splits, the shear resistance drops substantially. So, using pilot holes is always a good idea for anything that you want to be strong and to last. I only omit pilot holes for quick and dirty assembly of a temporary fixture or jig. Any screws used for permanent assembly should have properly sized pilot holes. This will maximize the strength in all directions (tensile as well as shear) and also maximize the integrity of the wood (preventing splits).
The 16mm screw fared pretty well considering its size and would probably be suitable for a lot of projects.
The point on the turbo gold does cut ahead of the shank. However it doesnt have a way to push out the cuttings. Hence predrill for that purpose.
This is great!
👍👊
Thanks for sharing! I greatly appreciate the time and effort put into the test. The only question I'm left with is: How would these screws have performed if they had been used as they would in the real world? In other words, the whole length of screw doesn't - in this end grain scenario - usually go into the stock through a 2 or 3mm bracket. How would they have done going through 18mm MDF face into end grain? Would that suggest that a longer screw would be required to achieve the same results? Just a thought.
Interesting results, really surprised that they generally get a worse fixing with a pilot hole. Would like to see a test on a mock cabinet joint- face grain to edge grain, both face fixed and pocket jointed, I’m sure it’s been done but it’d be good to see it on your rig for results in relation to the rest of the tests
Yup - will be doing a similar test to that soon. 👍
Top banana 👍
Nice merch, bruv. Oh, and the screw testing thing - are you going to repeat the tests in MR MDF?? 😂😂👍👍
Cheers bud! Lol, looks like I'll have to! 😂😂
@@GosforthHandyman And softwood. Then hardwood. Then maybe some unobtanium 🤔😂😂👍
Can you please run the tests on 25mm mdf and also some 2.5mm for a more comprehensive guide.....?!😂
Hope your well. Could I ask your advise as to which size of turbogold screw you would use on 12mm mdf end grain for draw boxes. Sorry pester but need to do some for my home and any advice would be appreciated.
Thanx for all your testing !! I may have missed it, but why are we ignoring drywall screws? and Also is it safe to assume that if we go up in length we would get even better results? Although as you mentioned this is way beyond most loads especially when considering it's only a Single screw.
What should be the minimum width of a Mdf board such that I can screw a screw on its edge / width ?
Your testing is greatly improved. When are you going to motorise your test rig? Nicely done.
Cheers Charles! Really struggling to get sufficient torque - even tried a drill on low speed but impossible to turn it slowly enough. I'm getting quite good and turning the nut at a fairly constant rate. 😂
Another brilliant and informative video Andy,is there a rule of thumb pilot hole size for any stock,is it half the screw size
It really depends on the shank size of the screw - these were all around 2-2.5mm or thereabouts. 👍
I'd like to see this test on the edge of osb.
I was thinking that the pull-out test gives an acurate idea of how an un-glued joint will perform when it is subject to bending load at the joint, where the bending load will partially change to a pulling load on the screw. BTW, pocket-hole screws seem to have a lot of the 'right stuff' that this test shows to be useful, with coarse threads (recommended), a pre-drilling point, and a narrower shank on the 'top' of the screw, so that it does not 'load' the 'outer' piece of the joined pair.
What you suggest on 9mm MDF butt joint? Making an under boiler three part box cover to hide copper pipes. Maybe 30mm standard pozi drive screws, pilot holes drilled? It's screwing face of mdf into mdf edges. Thanks
Sir can we use kreg hole jig for MDF wood? But i tried it before, it's not working properly... please teach us how to use kreg hole jig for MDF?
Don’t know if you ever did a comparison on another material, but I’m wondering if the goldscrew performs differently than a spax yellox universal screw of the same diameter and length. Their appearance seems to be almost identical.
All good points about pilot holes not making enough difference to make them worth the time you'd spend drilling them, but for us DIYers with 10 left-handed thumbs it's certainly easier to drill a pilot hole straight, especially into the end of a thinnish piece of board when it actually matters, than to screw in an unpiloted screw! 😊🤪
Could you test different torques to tightening screws on MDF by electric screwdriver with clutch to find out the best clutch setting?
The torque setting on drills is notoriously inaccurate unfortunately. 👍
Pilot hole is a must!! not only you have shown that is better for resistance, is better also for adjustment, a clean joint, pressision and besides, MDF do split while driving fasteners on the side grain!!!!
Excellent video Andy and it has persuaded me to stop spending silly money on Spax-M. HOWEVER...! For me a more important test would be load strength on a shelf fixed with these screws. There is no significant pull out force acting on the shelf units I build, but when shelves are fixed with screws it strikes me that the weight is supported by only half the thickness of the mdf (above the screw shank), and if there is even a hint of splitting then it’s already much weaker. I have been using the fat size 3 confirmats which makes things seem sturdier but they leave even less material above the shank. I’ve been meaning to test all this myself but not likely to get round to it at the moment! Can you stomach another set of tests?!
Yup - this is defo on the list of tests. 👍
Hi Andy have you tried forge fast screws I get good results and there reasonably priced and self drilling
Interesting data. It would be interesting to find the source of the deviation.
I would imagine, as he stated, that it is the difference in the structure of the MDF at that point. Everything from impurities, foreign parts, bonding agent, etc could make the difference. I am not a timber guy, but knew a few bespoke kitchen manufacturers a few decades back and they would not buy certain brands of MDF due to the non consistent quality of it even sometimes within the same sheet.
One trick to screw into the end grain is to drill a pilot hold and put some super glue into the hole and let it dry before putting the screw in. This is a common practice with the CNC people.
Here in the US we have different screws but if I can find pictures of the screws you tested maybe I can relate them.
Sorry I didn’t see it but did you put all screws in to the same depth?
Think i’m about 18 months late but this has been informative. Im a cheapskate but like to do the best possible within that budget.
Would it be worth, with a pilot hole to strengthen the wood fibres within the hole with epoxy, glue or even pva injected in so that it has a 360° bind from splitting and pulling out?
If anything, this has made me appreciate the drywall screw even more, especially for the price. I always use the 3.5 x 42mm screws
Out of curiosity, what brand of drywall screws did you use? I've found that the Toolstation brand screws are better than the Screwfix ones. The Screwfix ones kept snapping on me! (plus I have a slight addiction to the free hot chocolate!)
The smaller one is Screwfix - not sure for the larger one. I hardly ever use them. If you can survive with the Phillips head they're probably perfectly fine. 😀
Some of these screws.. like the TurboGold.. are not available in the US.. correct?
You're not gonna get me away from my Reissers! Similar to the TurboGold with the self drilling tip but also with a very nice cutting head for self countersinking. Give them a go. Interesting that no pilot hole usually means a stronger hold..but if you're near an end edge, any split will make the hold very weak as well as be unsightly. Not a fan at all of the Spax thanks to their custom drive bits.
Turbogold has self-countersinking head too! Will get some Reissers at some point though 😀 .Yeah, didn't like the Spax.
Putting my "Peter" hat on! The Spax has a smooth shank, the others were all fully threaded.
Yup! 👍
Hi Andy. Just wondering what are your thoughts on pocket holes in MDF? Have a customer wants a wardrobe built into an existing "boiler type" cupboard so I can't get at the unit from the outside. It all has to be built up internally?
Fine as long as you're screwing in to the face grain. I'd also glue the joints. 👍
Good video THANK YOU
What glue do you use to connect MDF?
I tried a super sticky activator, it didn't go very well.
Joining with screws is due to cracking of the material.
I use 19 mm thick MDF
I generally use Titebond II - clamped and left overnight it makes a very strong bond. CA glue with activator should work well too but it can be brittle.
Morning Andy
In metal a pilot hole for tapping would size at the root diameter of the thread. Have you tried sizing the pilot drill to suit the root diameter of each individual screw? It may be that the root diameter is tapered and would need a tapered drill.
Great show, thanks
Cheers! All had a root diameter of around 2-3mm hence the 2mm pilot. 👍
Being mdf I'm wondering if the guts of the hole is left larger than it appears as it tears generally when drilled into the end grain? I've tried all different things but unless the mdf is laminated like kitchen shelving I just glue and clamp or brad nail if I really have to and only use a nail that penetrates 10-15mm at most. Also 18 gauge brads work better than 16 in mdf!
Yup same here - I generally use 18g 35mm brads with glue - so 17mm in to the endgrain. 👍
what scale are you using? Is it connected to a computer?
I do enjoy these videos!
👍😀
Hi, Andy. Thanks from me for all of your huge amount of time and effort in putting these tests, and the video, together. My question to you would be "Why not test ONLY screws of the same dimensions (say) 4mm x 40mm or 5mm x 50mm rather than screws of different lengths and diameters ?" That way you would have had a common 'base line' and could have tested (say) the performance of single threads against twin threads and perhaps included the same sizes of more expensive types like Reisser cutters, Spax Wirox, Ulti-mates etc. etc. In other words are more expensive screws better than cheaper screws in MDF ?
Main purpose of this test is narrowing things down from a range of commonly used screws. Might pitch different brands against each other at some point. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman Hi, Andy. Thanks for your reply. As a matter of interest over the last forty years of joinery/building/construction/DIY works that I've done, the most common size that I have used is, without doubt, 4mm x 40mm (used to be known as 1" 1/2 x 8) I've used many thousands of them. Goodness knows where they've all gone ! My favoured screws these days are the 'Screw-Tite' range from T.Station Anyway, I always look forward to your videos and it's a big thumbs-up from me, down here in Cornwall.
Thank you! Cornwall is a lovely part of the world. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman Hi, Andy. If you're ever down here, near Truro, you're always welcome to call in to see us !
for those in the U.S., a 4mm screw would be about #8, and 50mm is about 2" long.
Where does the tiny amount of material go that self drilling screws remove? Well, it stays in the hole but it's just been displaced, which can result in extra pressure/stress around the screw and makes the material more likely to split around the screw.
The material goes to MDF pixie-land. 😂
Brilliant stuff! Can do some statistics on this too.... but maybe tomorrow after some coffee
Great stuff! 👍
so to avoid doing real work, I did some statistics on your data (just for the best 4 that you highlighted). You can work out the standard error of the mean for each average which gives you an metric of the variability for the data. You can then use it to compare two averages and decide if they're really different using something called the student t-test. To be honest - there is no significant difference between any of the screws (except the 16mm obviously!). The reason why theres no significant difference is because the strength that these screws take really varies quite a lot which is pretty surprising. Maybe its down to the torque of the screw, maybe its down to inconsistencies in the actual mdf. The turbo gold 50mm with the pilot hole is on the cusp of being statistically different from the others but its close. Typical science - you do a shit load of experiments and don't have a clear conclusive winner.
with the difference in strength being small if any - and all of them being strong enough to do your joinery Id be more interested in how good the finish is - does it split the panel when you screw it in? thanks again for the video!
Really interesting! Thing is too, the screws are usually just there to hold it while the glue dries. I'll do some tests of glue joint strength vs just screws at some point - it'll be off the scale though. Cheers for the info - keep it up! 👍😀
what MDF thickness are we talking about here?
Did you go to the Egger open day?
I got in touch with them but they wouldn't let me film so didn't end up going. 😥
When I viewed the TurboGold 4x50 without the pilot hole it appeared that the edge expanded, even though it did not splinter along the cleavage line of the MDF. When you drilled the pilot hole, did the edge expand as well? Why did you choose a 2 mm pilot hole. Ideally, it would seem to me that you would want to drill a sufficiently large pilot hole that the thickness of the MDF was not increased while not sacrificing the axial load capacity. Thoughts? Steve
That's why I try to avoid MDF like plague, its heavy, horrible on end grain, no tolerance for water, and dust is supposed to be toxic. Why even bother? Good review and thanks for sharing!
Main thing with MDF is its ability to take paint and no stability issues that you get with natural wood. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman stability issues?
Liked the tee shirt, thought it was a saw until you told me it was a tick?
It's a saw and a tick! 👍😀
It would be nice if we could see something
If I build with melamine I always use the 7x50 confirmat and the actual confirmat stepped drill bit. They also make a plastic cover cap that snaps into the screw head. Put them every 250mm and keep out of the corners a bit.
It's a very strong joint that can be taken apart and reassembled a few times. Plus the correct stepped drill bit puts the head of the screw flush.
Good test though, looks like with a permanent mdf assembly if it's getting applied ends pre drilling isn't necessary, just use a quality screw and you'll be fine.
Hi mate. Where do you get the confirmat drill bit?
Tests like this are difficult to get a reliable result unless you run 10 or more iterations for each configuration to average out the differences in the MDF from board to board as MDF is not all that consistent. And sizing the pilot holes is an art also. You want some lateral pressure, but you want to be well below the splitting threshold. Ideally, the wood should not split or if it does it should split just as the peak withdrawal load is reached.
Can someone recommend me which screw width should I use for 12mm thick MDF for end grain?
Use the 13mm width screw.
@@mririshman9631 🤣
@@marinercegovic8049 🤣🤣🤣
The confirmat with the spacer is STILL getting the same thread engagement, the spacer is simply
removing the plain shaft section of the screw from the mdf & consequentially reducing splitting...
Just my 2 c. ....
Regarding pilot drilling... I think if u drill one , it should be barely fractionally below the core diameter of the screw.. a too-small pilot is no better then no pilot...in my estimation...
Good point in the Confirmat! What might be happening is that with no spacer the thread is deeper in the wood - so it has to pull the thread through the last section of MDF... probably 8mm or so, if that makes sense. With the spacer the thread is right at the edge of the board... dunno, just guessing. It could just be a fluke higher result too. 👍
Andy. I know it's a couple of years since these tests. A pilot hole is so much easier for construction. A conclusion, why the !!!!!!!! did I did this.
Now we are out of the EU, can we have the results in good old British terms. Go Geordie go, from a not quite a Malam.
Cheers Geoff Maddison
#drinkcoffeemakestuff is going on Santa's wishlist
Send a pic on Insta / Twitter when you get it! 👍😀
Hi Andy, I did wonder how much stronger it would be if a little glue was added down the pilot hole first? I bet that would reduce splitting...
Glue would just sit on top of the hole - it wouldn't run down. I could put some on the thread of the screw though as a test - how much and what sort of glue? 👍
Just for shits and giggles, could you do a pilot hole and super glue in a wall plug,to see if that works any better. just thinking outside the box.?
Too many other tests to run and I'd never do this in the real world. 👍😀
@@GosforthHandyman
That probably is a bit over the top, gluing in a dowel and then piloting it _might_ improve things, still not something you would normally do I know.
What these tests say to me is that the core of an mdf sheet is there mainly to hold the faces apart, much like an I beam.
confirmat screws require a special step drill bit. you really can't just drive them in.
And that's why you see them, or a version of them, frequently used in mass produced products.
I'm not a joiner mom, and won't promise any sales, but why not have a my mom's a joiner onesie on there alongside the dad one?
Might add on the next batch of updates - I'd need mum / mam in the UK too and mom for US. 😀
A lot to take in. You dismissed the goldscrew 4 x 50mm, I just checked they are £3 for 200 compared to £7 for the same in turbogold. So bang for your buck would make the goldscrew better? Obviously as you say go with what you want, but you said anything over 100kg is fine and they were. I may have missed something, but you seemed to dismiss them because the turbogold were better. Yet the goldscrew are plenty good enough.
Defo - if cost is a factor go for the Goldscrews but I think for most projects the cost difference wouldn't be a problem. The TurboGold is more versatile for a lot of other situations. 👍
@@GosforthHandyman Thanks for the clarification! I should have posed that more as a question. I really appreciate the effort you put into that. I've been doing a project this morning and switched to 4 x 50mms. Not sure what I would have used, probably something a lot shorter. As a cheapskate I have goldscrews in stock! I only use screws in shop projects, not is production. But it's those little things that add up. I'f I have to restock some screws a few packs at £7 adds up a lot quicker than a few at £3!
I'm curious, and really don't know the answer, how are turboscrews more versatile? You could convert me yet!
Main benefit I find is since they're self drilling you can drive them straight in to just about anything without a pilot hole - even in thin softwood they'll rarely split the wood. Goldscrews are still good though so I wouldn't worry too much. 👍😀
You will drive yourself mad doing those types of tests, enough already, enjoyable to watch though, on the point of drywall screw they are so brittle using a driver into certain timbers just sheer the heads off, im like you I only use them on what they are designed for
Not sure what brand or type of drywall screw you buy but I've only ever broken heads off them using an impact driver into hardwood, which annihilates most screws of any type lol. I rarely use a bugel as when pushed the head can bend which then depending on tip used will shred the guts!
I was losing it slightly after the 40th test. 😂
Really interesting stuff Andy.
Can I ask? Did all these tests come out of the same sheet of MDF (excluding the MR MDF)?
Do you check the moisture content of each test block?
I think you are on to something when you look at the inconstant results and the density...
Keep up the hard work and thank you
Yup - same sheet of Medite trade standard MDF. Don't check moisture content but I'm getting the inconsistent results even on the same piece of wood. 👍
Drywall screws are much cheaper and had the second best results. If you want to safe money, just use long, course drywall screws.
I would compare only identical Screw diameters and length not different, the test is Invalid.
That's the whole point of the test.
The classic T (no you can't borrow my tools) is £16:89 until clicked on then it jumps to £ 20:98, what's going on?
Weird - £20.98 is the correct price. No idea - I've logged a case with Teespring to see why it's doing that. I think it's a fairly new system though. 👍
If you are doing a ‘Geeky’ test, should you not have a white coat and plastic glasses on an a name badge with the official title of ‘Senior MDF Tester’?
Ha ha - good plan! 😂
First! Do i win a prize?
😂😂👍
LOL will you quit screwing around ,wheres the glue ,its that stuff in a bottle that gets sticky ,try a little on the screw tip before you drive it in ,then retest ,you may be very surprised ( note ) wait 24 for the glue to completey set ,i sure with a drilled pilot hole and a dab of the sticky stuff ,and if you want to have some real fun stick a coin on the floor infront of the mens room in your local coffee shop ye yea thats it coffee shop see how many try to pick it up
Might test on a future one - too many variables for this test. Why type of glue, how much? Don't think it will make much difference with MDF but happy to be proven wrong! 👍😀
@@GosforthHandyman Might want to check your glue stocks ,all that weird stuff going on Halloween night and well Peter asking "when are you going to do it with MR MDF",throw him a curve and use birch plywood too ....lol
If your a pro with an actual business then you don't use mdf...if you made quality you wouldn't need youtube and merch you'd be too profitable to waste time on videos ..... people that use mdf don't trust, your shit will fall apart
Hi mate ,whats best screw for melamine faced chipboard? Also how are scews measured say if i order 18mm is that full length of screw or length of thread?