Differences between OS 93/94 Swedish and Eternal Central Rules, MtG Old School Magic | 047
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- What is the difference between Swedish rules and Eternal Central OS MtG rules? In this episode of Timmy Talks, we are going to dive into the two main rule sets of Old School Magic the Gathering 93/94.
Find out what the rules are, how the rules differ and what the impact is of these changes when constructing an old school Magic deck. Did I miss something or do you have more rule questions? Please leave a comment below.
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Church bells are ringing in the background!!!!! I love you and your channel. Please go on with your lovely videos! Thank you very much!! Best wishes from Germany
I actually live right next to a church in Amsterdam 👍 Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated.
Great video! This is my third time watching it. I personally use the term mana drought to flow (hah!) with mana flood.
Best play from back in the day.
Turn 1: Swamp into Dark Ritual into Hypnotic Spector, Go.
Opponent Turn 1: Land, Go.
Turn 2: Swamp into Hymn To Tourach. Attack with Spector and finish destroying opponent’s hand, Go.
Opponent Turn 2: Draw, Sad face, scoop.
Exactly and those games are not the reason why I play OS. Whenever I constrict a deck, I do have the hippy threat in the back of my mind. My favourite play is to cast earthbind 😆 instagram.com/timmy_mtg/p/BvuEmpBHHyx/?igshid=ipi14gqzjyii
My deck.
In casual you can play like this. In a real tournament, 70% of the players either are packing 4x Bolts; or 4x Bolts and 4x Chain Lightning; or 4x Swords To Plowshares. And everyone is packing 1x Chaos Orb. If you open with Ritual+Specter, you severely risk getting reverse Hymned. On turn one you play a 1 drop like Stone Throwing Devils, or Vampire Bats, or Paralyze if you're running LD, or Evil Presence (screws up their mana...turns an Island to mess up spell counters, turns a dual land into a mono land, turn a Plains or Mountain into a Swamp, which really screws up mono color decks). You can also Ritual into a 1 drop and a 2 drop knight.
If you have Hymn, you Hymn turn 2, especially if your knight baits out a bolt, breaking their hand in half. Then when you have three Swamps on turn 3 and the way is clear, you can almost lock the game and make your opponent top decking by casting Hypno then.
Would you like to know more about the old school magic rules and different rule sets that are out there?
For this video I used the following websites:
oldschool-mtg.blogspot.com/p/banrestriction.html
www.eternalcentral.com/9394rules/
sentineloldschoolmtg.wordpress.com/atlantic-93-94/
tmikonen.github.io/quantitatively/2018-12-04-mono-blue-mana-screw/
oldmtg-france.com/rules/
Did I miss anything? Leave a comment! Always interested to learn about new and other OS formats.
Ty Timmy looking forward to our games
🙌
Really nice video! I'm surprised your thoughts on Hymn to Tourach and Strip Mine exactly reflect my own, scary :-). I also noticed none of the existing OS formats feature the combination of rules/B&R that I consider optimal, but to each his own. Maybe one day I'll organise my own tournament with house rules exactly to my liking.
Still surprised Swedish doesn't have many burn as to me it's a particular "old school" rule. I think it adds depth to cards such as Su-Chi and Mana Drain which are now essentially no-brainers in the format, and it also disencourages sub-optimal use of cards such as Mishra's Workshop and Black Lotus. But I'll respect the rule when playing Swedish.
On a side note: when comparing deck lists (or more accurately: pictures) of decks from EC versus Swedish decks, I tend to notice more Jayemdae Tomes in EC than in Swedish (even in decks without cards such as Su-Chi and Mana Drain). Is this the result of an essential difference in rules/B&R between the formats or just player preference? Or just me looking for confirmation bias :-)?
Fantastic job sir!
Thank you sir 👍 Thinking about making a sequel including Atlantic and the latest changes in the format.
I’m trying to get people started in my area using OGT2 (Original Type 2) rules - Revised, The Dark, and Fallen Empires. That makes it much more budget friendly to make a reasonable deck. At the moment, I’m trying to just get people to play so any printing of a card from those sets is legal but original art and frame is encouraged and original printing even more encouraged. The only truly expensive cards in this format are the Revised Dual Lands. They definitely smooth mana but aren’t 100% necessary.
I have so many the Dark cards just for the art. What b&r list are you planning on using?
Btw: This fb group could be interesting, facebook.com/groups/Original.Type.II/
I like up to Ice Age. Super fun.
timewalking.wordpress.com/original-type-ii/ for the b&r list though we will use mostly current rules - mana burn will be a thing though. I appreciate the link and I had just joined them a week ago.
I appreciate the video.
Since there are several cards which are affected by mana burn, it sure seems that any old school rule set should include it, otherwise those cards are either being 'soft-banned' or their power level is increased above the game designers' original intent.
Also, I've heard/read a good bit about the Strip Mine debate, and it sure seems (like you said) that if playing 4 Strip Mines were normalized, then people would simply adjust their mana bases accordingly. This would seem to be a big argument in favor of unrestricting it. And yes, there are many powerful lands in the format for which Strip Mine can be a decent safety valve.
My personal thought is that Mishra's Factory seems quite strong and ubiquitous in all of the rule sets. I don't see a lot of discussion about restricting Mishra's Factory, although most discussion if seen agrees that it is powerful and semi-oppressive and omnipresent, giving alternate win conditions to decks that probably shouldn't have it so easy. Maybe it and Stip Mine should be linked, in that if one is restricted/unrestricted then both should be restricted/unrestricted.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Daniel 🙌
Awesome mate
Fantastic video Tim!!!
Thank you Edwin! It was harder to make than I thought, but happy with the result.
@@TimmytheSorcerer the best videos take a lot of work to get all your ducks in a row. Not everybody can just turn on a camera and nail it on first try like Rudy
Btw, what’s your favorite format and let’s play again soon (you choose the rule set), it’s been too long ago.
@@TimmytheSorcerer I have been enjoying the EC rules format when it comes to balanced games. But when it comes to just wanting to take it easy and play more casual decks I like Swedish rules.
We should definitely play again. BTW, I just gave you a shout out again on my latest video :)
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I like your kind a lot! It is not all about money in Mtg. I like your budget deckbuilding! Go on! Best wishes from Germany, your Pablo
Very nice video, thnx
Does EC have any other preserved rules from the old days? For example, does it have batches instead of the stack? (All damage went to the bottom of the batch and was applied last, so, for example, you couldn't respond to a Giant Growth by killing the creature with Lightning Bolt. Interrupts resolved immediately and didn't go onto the batch, so, for example, you couldn't Counterspell another Counterspell.)
It uses the stack. The only format (to my knowledge) that works with batches like that is Alpha 40.
I've been building decks by EC rules but without FE so far seems good.
On a side note though I think being able to have 4 black vises is ridiculous though.
FE has some useful cards, but there are tons of ec decks that do best without the inclusion of fe. As for the black vise, I’ve been playing before they were restricted and obviously you see the card a lot more now. They are particularly handy in card draw decks, such as Underworld Dreams builds. They’re also a popular tool in the Atog decks. I think the card works best when combined with a sac outlet such as Atog or Sage of Lat-Nam. At our local tournaments, I don’t see dcks qoth a playset of vise dominate, but those decks sure have improved. Artifact removal is def a must in your first 60 when playing oldschool.
Fourth edition reprints should be legal also, that way people can actually play without proxying as many cards
Most of the time the Swedish event have an open re-print policy, meaning you can play with re-prints that have the same art and frame.
@@TimmytheSorcerer that’s good. I’m all for it, unlimited proxies too. The more people get to play the format, the better 😊
You are seeing 4 maze ith for the first time I’ve seen in my life, and it is in Legacy
Seeing = saying? I’ve never played legacy, but good point 👍
Maze Of Ith in Legacy makes a lot of sense...one of the fastest decks is Reanimator...although it doesn't stop Griselbrand or 15 Emrakul. It's also good against Death's Shadow and StifleNaut.
I saw a old school game where a chaos orb was activated, in response it was destroyed with a disenchant and the ability didnt resolve.. is this a part of OS rules? Any idea about this topic Timmy?
I do and yes, you are correct. This how they explain it on the website of eternalcentral.com,
"1, Tap: Choose a nontoken permanent on the battlefield. If Chaos Orb is on the battlefield, flip Chaos Orb onto the battlefield from a height of at least one foot. If Chaos Orb turns over completely at least 360 degrees during the flip, and lands resting on the chosen permanent, destroy that permanent. Then destroy Chaos Orb.
(Note: because of how Chaos Orb is worded, with it being destroyed after a flip, it can still be Disenchanted or Shattered in response to the activation, which will nullify the ability to flip, since it is no longer on the battlefield. This is consistent with the wording of Chaos Orb not being sacrificed upon activation, as it probably would with modern templating. Also note that Chaos Orb chooses, but does not target.)"
For more info you can always take a look at www.eternalcentral.com/9394rules/ (I go there all the time :D)
Cheers,
Timmy
Since the wording isn't 1: activate, Sacrifice Chaos Orb...
With only 1 strip mine in the Swedish rules, do you see that the player who draws LOA early in the game has a huge advantage? With 1 strip mine, it can be argued LOA should be banned. What are your thoughts?
There are many weapons against loa, I usually play with at least 4 cards that can remove a land. There are simply so many powerful lands, such as diamond valley, maze of ith, factories etc... Chaos Orb and Strip Mine are already 2 of those sources. In one of my decks I play 2 city in a bottle main to deal with it. In general you see many players playing with ice storms, armegeddons or sinkholes. The last tournament I played, I lost one game to LoA out of the 18 games that I played (6 matches, each match has 3 games).
In general, I’m not a big fan of banning cards. OS is a crazy format with cards that are not only way too strong, but also only affordable for a few players. This makes blue power so strong, but I wouldn’t want to see those cards banned. It’s great to go against power and see what you can come up with to defeat them. Power9 and broken cards are part of old school magic and surprisingly enough you can still play entertaining games if you have a deck that’s powerless. I love forking my opponent’s Ancestral Recall 🕺
Library is good but not as good as in 1994 when winning the coin flip, you draw a card when you go first. Right now, half the time it slows you down both on draw and turn. I would cut it unless I'm playing both Howling Mine and both draw 7s.
What I'd really like is to find a group I can play old-school with. Is there an online community?
Yes there is. I play a lot of OS through Appear and you can find other OS players via groups like facebook.com/groups/oldschoolmagic4life/ and facebook.com/groups/551913338322720/ (this last group is a group for OS players that play online).
Look here, prehaps you could find a club close to you.
Global Old School Clubs
goo.gl/maps/zPAd42jUFwDUvgV79
@@TimmytheSorcerer awesome thank you. I'll check it out!
Are you allowed to play with cards from Collectors Edition?
That depends on the format and what rules the organizer had. Most online events allow CE. In real life tournaments Swedish usually doesn't and EC does.
I need to update the rules video btw, it's on my to do list :D
@@TimmytheSorcerer Thanks Timmy, I appreciate the info.
I've been watching a lot of your videos and I quite like them. You're definitely my favorite content creator :)
I'm a bit confused by the strip mine chart you're using... It shows that the chance of color screw rises from 16 to 21 procent when you run 4 copies instead of 1, but the same argument goes for any other colorless mana producing land right?... It has nothing to do with the actual land destruction ability... It is a (poor?) choice made when deckbuilding, just like including 4 copies of mishra's factory in a color heavy deck... Or am I missing something?
Hi Paul, good questions. It is not super clear and perhaps I should've explained it a little better. The problem that he is pointing out is that the EC format (in a way) forces you to play with four strips yourself and your opponent also plays with 4 strips. In such a situation, what are the chances of not finding a double U? In this case that double U could also be double W or R and so forth. He also takes into account the chances of the opponent stripping one of his lands before he can reach the double U. He is showing how fragile double coloured spells become in this format, when you take into consideration that both players play with four strips. Even in a mono coloured deck. For example, a mono black deck is also very reliant on hitting double black in t2.
The link to the article is tmikonen.github.io/quantitatively/2018-12-04-mono-blue-mana-screw/
He used the following data as a start:
"In my deck, there are 16 Islands, 8 colorless lands, 12 spells with mana cost of UU, and 24 other cards.
- In the opponent’s deck, there are 4 Strip Mines, and 56 other cards.
- Both players start with 7 cards.
- I mulligan if I have less than 2 lands, or less than 1 Island in the starting hand. If I have less than 5 cards in hand, I do not mulligan. The opponent does not mulligan.
- Players draw a card at the start of their turn, except for the starting player.
- During my turn, I play an Island if I have at least one in hand.
- During the opponent’s turn, if I have an Island in play and they have a Strip Mine in hand, they play and activate it to destroy one of my Islands.
- After each of my turns, I check whether I would have enough mana to cast a spell that costs UU, and whether I have such a spell in hand. If I have the spell but not enough mana, I am considered to be “mana screwed” on that turn.
- The above game is played for a fixed number of turns (for example, 6).
- The steps 1.-9. are repeated many times, and the results averaged, to get a statistically significant estimate for the probability of being “mana screwed” on a particular turn."
Hopefully this answer clears things up a little.
@@TimmytheSorcerer Thanks. This makes it a bit clearer, unfortunately, it is very, very situational. Based on the above, and maybe it is just me, we are talking about a blue player who has 24 lands, 1/3 already colorless, resulting in the fact that he is already mana screwed each every 6 opening hands... That is very poor if the goal of the deck is to cast a UU spell turn two... So, either it is not really essential to even cast the UU spell turn two, or the player should have fixed his mana base to begin with... Further more, he mulligans when "less than two lands" while every (blue) player I know muligans when less than three. Of course people often play artifact mana sources, but these are not mentioned at all... Pretty sure that, if I would copy this test, still run 4 strip mines but raise the amount of islands from 16 to 20, the results would drastically change in favor of the blue player (and in favor of strip mine). I would like to continue this discussion over a beer or two in the near future, but would like to mention one last thing; Assuming this test is anywhere close to reality, the opponent also only has 1 colored source on turn two. So he/she has the exact same problem when it comes to casting spells, which leaves 2 options; A; The opponent had built a better deck and doesn't rely on 2 (colored) mana sources spells turn two, or B; the opponent has the similar casting problems and is unlikely to run 4 strip mines and/or activate them to begin with... #pennyformythoughts;) Really love en enjoy your video's by the way Thomas!
This is what the author of the article mentions in the comments, which is kind of proving my point: "Thanks for you comment! I am not sure where my preferences lie. We currently play with Swedish + reprints at our playgroup, but experiencing the four Strip Mines in action was certainly refreshing. But I was definitely surprised at how much is affects the availability of coloured mana. It was also pointed out to me that the importance of having 2 coloured sources on turn 2 is why some White Weenie players prefer to not run any Mishra's Factories in the US."
I do agree that this specific graph isn't all that accurate and your right about the artifact mana sources (he doesn't include any artifact mana sources, stones, moxen etc..). Maybe we should do our own research and have some games with 4 strips :)
For the same reason channel is restricted, do you think power artifact should be restricted as well? Monolith, power artifact, and fireball are more power than channel fireball, as the fireball could be countered causing a huge loss in life with the channel.
I don’t think so, when you look at tournament results combo decks are performing poorly. A combo that needs three pieces to work is usually not very effective. I’ve played Power Monolith decks a few times and won most of the games by targeting the combo pieces. When combo decks go off they look very strong, but in the end it’s all about consistency and how vulnerable a combo is to disruption. Have you ever seen a Power Monolith deck win a tournament?
@@TimmytheSorcerer Thanks for the reply. Do combo decks that require just 2 cards work much better? Or do they still have poor results? Gandalf the Dark recently released a video in which a power monolith deck did really well in a tournament.
@@joeb1522The problem with Channel Fireball is that it can come out of nowhere since it's two Sorceries. With PowerMonolith, you have to use two permanents and THEN a Fireball. You can target or counter either permanent or the Fireball.
UK Rules = Awesome!
I need to make a new rules vid 💃🕺
Four strip mine is cancer. I've been playing EC rules exclusively for around 5 years, and the format has become: whoever gets more strip mines early usually wins. It could be The Deck, Troll Disko, or a budget mono green deck. It's the least fun, least interactive card and leads to *far* more blow-out games than Library does. This is based on my hundreds of games of old school.
Another argument people posit is that 4 strip mines make budget decks better. That's demonstrably false, since a 4 workshop fully powered deck is made EVEN BETTER with 4 strip mines.
Finally, people claim 4 strip mine is "historically accurate", but the same could be said of 4 mana drains. We restrict mana drain because it's not fun to play against 4...
I disagree. Greedy decks will get blown out by a run of strip mines. Workshop, even in old school is real, and factories are really good. These piddly white weenie, goblin, mono black and such are rarely derailed if they play with enough lands. It's the five color splashing for the entire restricted list that get hurt by strip mine, which is fine. If you play with a low land count to try and have more action, or just too many duals, the strip mines will check you. Otherwise the format would be slightly more degenerate depending on budget in the area.
@@highestcarrot Greedy decks will get blown out, but fully powered (or 7/9) decks with full strips aren't greedy. They have a strong enough mana base and card advantage to outlast a white weenie deck with strips. That's why the top decks in every EC event are troll disko and atog. Black has hymn which is another argument, but other budget decks don't stand a chance against a multi-strip, fully powered net deck.
Restricting strip will give combo decks a better shot, and will help budget decks (i.e. without 9 power) to actually play their cards before their fully powered opponent is developed. There's some evidence of this with Atlantic rules, but it's too early to say definitively. For now it's just my opinion.
Luckily, there are other rule sets and depending on what I see, Atlantic is gaining some turf in the US. Here in Europe we mainly play Swedish with a lenient re-print policy. I would love to play FE more tough.
As a player without blue power, I get your point. The control opponent can use the strips and doesn’t mind going for the long game and slowly depleting your sources (or should I say removing them) and then play ancestral to get card advantage, timewalk for the extra turn, regrowth on ancestral etc...
What kind of decks do you like playing? I’m always in for a game or two 👊
I play EC land destruction and even I don’t use 4 strip mines. Only 1.
the 1 problem with maze is that it does not produce mana, that is why people do not play 4
In 94, Maze Of Ith is restricted in October. Playing 4 Mazes is OP if you don't count them as mana sources in your deck. If you are running a combo deck, 4x Maze is a must.
Why there are so many different rules around the word?
I guess because Magic players are difficult, especially these old school types ;)
@@TimmytheSorcererHahah, lies.
The reason why is different parts of the world experienced 1994 differently. In most parts in the US, only a few hotspots like Los Angeles/Orange Counties had a LOT of cards. Most places in the US had very few cards. And Europe had almost no cards. 1994 is particularly precious for the Europeans because they had a tiny amount of cards and played with a lot of Revised decks with most players playing some kind of Control. In the US, a minority of decks played Disenchant while in Europe, you were considered a newbie if you didn't maindeck Disenchant. It wasn't until 1996 where cards were shipped out of Los Angeles to Europe and then Asia, and the majority of the operation was run by Troll And Toad.
And you can also extrapolate the card pools also were directly proportionate to the number of players and then even more so with judges and tournament organizers.
Eternal is better, restricting strip mine is a mistake
Playing these sets with no mana burn is dumb
Thank you for the constructive feedback 😂
@@TimmytheSorcererNow go take some mana burn and untap your Mirror Universe.
So it seems like Swedish rules are the real deal, and EC rules are for poorer people that wish they could play Swedish rules.
Bryce Cheng elitists are why the game is the way it is today. Just because your wealthy doesn’t mean your a good player. Just saying
Actually there weren't any serious tournaments where DCI number was required until 1995 when Fallen Empires was out. So the Swedish rules make no sense at all.