Studio Acoustics Part 4 | Choosing and Using ACOUSTIC PANELS | Velocity vs Pressure Traps
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
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In this video we look at different types of acoustic panel, velocity and pressure based absorbers, and try and help you decide what is right for your space.
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I like how orange you are, reminds me of Marbella. Also great info, just finished my degree and it took them a year to get through the info you just shared….
Thanks for this velocity-trap-tour (weren’t they the little vicious ones, in Jurassic Park..?). As I can’t play monitors loudly in my flat, I built some one-inch panels to mount at various points inside the cups of my headphones... though I’m considering adding some tiny Lego wheels, so I can move them around a bit.
Actually, Mark’s too late to apply his run-for-the-hills business plan... as, in my own case, Nature Herself has applied a ‘limiter’ to my overall talent and musical ability.
This was just outstanding advice, Mark! As in, $1000s of consult - free. Particularly, sweep tests and ears as measuring mics. Everyone has those tools and giant problems can be understood and resolved. Superb overview.
Thank you for the kind words, Peter!
I've been designing rooms for some time now and this is the first time I listen to somebody who knows what it's about. This is the way we do this.
Great video. Very informative and to the point in a practical way.
Practical and pragmatic advice. Thank you!
Excellent video, crystal clear 👍
Those advices will be precious in few weeks...
Again, very useful info well presented!
Another comment for another excellent video. Your educated and simplified way of sharing wisdom are greatly appreciated..
Thanks and all the best..
All so true. The sound and look valuable!!!
Superb Advice mark. Many Thanks Sir.
I love this channel!
I like to think I know alot about acoustics and sound but this guy is the Master lol!
When I first tuned in to one of his videos recently I didn't think much of it, 5 min later I was like wow this is great, real knowledge without all the filler and jargon mumbo jumbo that is put out by so many people to substitute for their lack of knowledge and/or real world understanding of acoustics!
So many videos I've seen recently were like somebody read ONE acoustics book, took notes, then read their notes word for word all while telling you how they are a professional and know all about acoustics.
I used to do a little live sound and I have seen or rather heard sound do some weird or strange things that wld go against all rules alot of studio style books will teach!
End of the day I'm just happy to find a place to learn a little more about sound and more importantly how to get my sound sounding better!
thanks for the good tips ...and I really like your mug ;-)
Hello from Texas USA. Thank you very much for all of your videos! You have really helped me!
Thanks Michael, that’s what it’s all about!
i feel so good in this room, 4.8meter deep, 9 meters wide, 3.20 ceiling :) best acoustic isolation, AIRSPACE
GIK used to give free consultations too, I think.... not sure if they still do
They do and they are very thorough! I just had one myself and was very impressed (and bought a LOT of treatment from them)
worth noting the density of the rockwool you buy if you go down the DIY route. RWA45 might be the cheaper available stuff, but something like RW3 or RW5 might be better for what you are looking to achieve if depth is a scarce resource. The more dense rockwool panels will also hold themselves rigid if you're stacking them in stud walls, which makes life a lot easier if you're doing a full wall treatment.
Thanks Koss, we’ve actually got Jesco from Acoustics Insider hopping on for our final video in the series to help answer some questions, and I have a feeling he might suggest that density doesn’t really matter (but it definitely makes building panels easier!), so I’ll put it to him! Thanks again
I would imagine, as with most of these things, the actual difference is negligible between the densities, even if you had the tools to measure down to 3 decimal places. I'll be very interested to see what Jesco has to say.
Notification/Discord squad! Where you at? 😂
Obligatory „aww cute kitty!“ comment. Also, thanks for the inspiring talk about DIY acoustics; it’s really fascinating!
Question:- If i built two large cat trees in the corners behind my listening position, how many cats would you estimate I would have to populate each tree with to reduce the approx 80-ish hertz hump in my room's response? And how to convince them to stay still so that the resonant frequency of absorption, due to said cats would stay relatively constant?
Thoughts?
76.4 cats, and just stick Finding Nemo on the tele for them to watch. Cats love fish.
(Although FlopCat is scared of tuna…)
Great stuff, would love to get some feedback on my room setup including tips on pressure issues I'm having. Joined the Discord gang and looking forward to some of the discussions!
Hi PresentDayProduction: Now that I am happy with monitors thanks to you tip👍🏾. I now want to look acoustic treatment. My studio is compact at just 6ft x12ft and Ceiling height is 7ft! I already have some acoustic treatment in place i.e. front wall, front wall corners-(foam traps), side walls-1st reflection points, but I have no other treatment anywhere else for e.g. on the ceiling.
I have used acoustic foam up until now as it is lightweight & cost effective etc, but since watching your channel I see its not really recommended!I have used a thickness of 100mm on front wall. On 1st reflection points (side walls)I have used 50mm thickness but have left an equal air gap. I feel that it would be advantageous to treat the ceiling and other side walls too, but as I know better I now would like to treat the remaining places in a better choice of material-adding/enhancing what I already have!
The dilemma I face is how do i do this when it requires such thick materials of say 6inches to really be effective? But I simply cannot accommodate this in such a small space-especially as such thick material would mean lowering the ceilings much more and losing room space then it would begin to feel a little claustrophobic I fear😏. Therefore, what is the minimum thickness I could use to improve overall stereo image? and also what type of material is best? Is foam a definite no no? Is there any particular material that can be used that is quite lightweight? As my walls are plasterboard and don’t think they’d do so well with heavy panels. Many thanks in advance
Foam isn’t necessarily bad, but it can take out too much high end (leaving you feeling claustrophobic!) and make a room sound quite boxy if it isn’t thick enough. If the foam is shaped/sculpted then it is even worse as that brings down the average thickness. If those sculpted sides fit together for shipping then you could double it up front-to-front so as it’s then flat on both sides.
But the best way is to use proper slab style insulation material - rigid fibreglass or rockwool style insulation. Even 50mm of that with an air gap in place of the foam will extend down to a much lower frequency, so you could use that to tame your early reflections on the side walls and ceiling at your listening position and then double it up at the front and back of the room where you have more space, to control the low end a little more.
@@PresentDayProduction once again thank you so much for getting back to me. You give the best music advice....like seriously! It’s always so constructive and easy to follow. I have seen rigid rock mineral wool panels, in various thicknesses, so it will make a huge difference, if I can use the thinner ones say 50mm and 67mm thickness and leave an air gap,with these on the ceiling and side walls,-as you suggested. Prior to that, I feared that the 120mm + thickness panels were going to make me feel very😩. Brilliant, now I think I can get this to work! Thank you for giving me a workable solution😄👍🏾
The drone analogy was perfect.🙂. Just one question. Can i use really thick heavy rubber to "absorb/trap" bass instead of rockwool or fiberglass?
Possibly as a membrane for a pressure trap, but not as a porous absorber, no
been trying to find a guide to create a presure trap for such a long time with no luck. i really need to do something about that 45hz and 122hz peaks that are driving me crazy.
Get in touch with GIK acoustics - they’ll make you some cheaper than you can build them yourself!
@@PresentDayProduction i was looking last night, but their website is a little annoying with a pop up with each click to a subsection. also the marketing around the products (the naming of them mostly) is a little confusing, but i will dig deeper once i’ll have a little more time. thanks for the advice!
I agree, their website isn’t the best, and they should call their tuned membrane bass traps... I dunno.... “Tuned Membrane Bass Traps” would be a winner! GIKea Acoustics?1
Awesome drone analogy. Thankfully you aren't Americans, so no weddings were bombed during the making of this video.
QUESTION: At my left-side first reflection point there is a large wall-mounted IKEA shelf.
Can I suspend an absorption panel so it's hangs vertically-oriented from the ceiling in front of George? (George is the name of my IKEA shelf. duh.)
o o
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o o
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Like this?
PS-Before anyone asks, I am self-taught, and did NOT go to computer illustration school.
Thanks for the video guys!
🙏
Yes you can, that is actually a great solution as you’re adding a substantial gap between absorption and wall. Just make sure George can breathe! If you can give him a twin brother on the opposite wall then even better.
@@PresentDayProduction
That’s so helpful, thanks guys!
So… Fourth I guess!
HI Present day production! Thanks for this brilliant video as always. I'm currently building a studio from scratch. I'm still on the stud work but looking forward to the acoustic treatment once the interior walls go up. I have the opportunity to treat every inch of the room as you have and will be DIYing it with plywood and rockwool. One thing that stood out of this video is doubling the bass response by introducing an air gap which is a great tip. My questions is how would you do this if, like in your own studio, you are treating all of the wall? How would you create spaces to allow the air into that gap or does this only matter more when hanging a few panels on a pre-existing wall? Thanks for the help and all your hard work on the channel! Iain
Hi Iain, thank you for your kind words! An air gap certainly still works if you are treating the whole surface, but can be difficult to implement. We didn’t on the side (longest) walls, we went for bass trapping all around the wall to floor and wall to ceiling junctions instead as we were able to build the room with a very high ceiling. So the top and bottom 900mm or so of our walls are tuned bass traps (difficult!) and the 2400mm of height in the middle is absorption but with no air gap on the side walls. The end walls are panels of varying thicknesses (6-12 inches) that do have an air gap. Our main control room does have air gaps but the walls and treatment are much thicker - up to three feet in places, and we spaced the insulation from the outer wall by incorporating a trellis style lattice framework to support it at the back. If you’re treating the whole wall, my advice would be to fill it up with insulation initially, and then before you go any further, do some listening tests and see how it’s working. And if you need to be absorbing down to a lower frequency then you can experiment with bringing the insulation out a little. Hard work, but you only want to do this once! Hope that helps!
@@PresentDayProduction it helps very much thank you! I’m planning to angle the top of the wall in at 45° actually but still keep the insulation all the way back to the wall so that should be really deep in the end. I definitely plan on spending a lot of time listening and measuring as you said in video number 3! My main problem then is just trying to source a giant white Yeti! I know it would be foolish to carry on without one 🤪
can also use acouxtic cotton in the panels
You can but, like the fluffy type insulation you get on a roll, it can be too floppy to stay where you want it in a panel.
According to Ron Sauro of NWAA Labs, the air gap should be no greater than 1" for maximum bass efficiency of the panel. Moving it further away than an inch reduces the benefit.
We cover this in our final video in the series with Jesco from Acoustics Insider. He explains that the air gap should be no greater than the depth of the absorption, and why. So tune in for that one on Sunday!
@@PresentDayProduction should be interesting!
Great video as usual! A related question. I live in an old building with plaster block walls that transmit sound, especially at human voice frequencies, between rooms very well. What would be the most uninvasive way to block sound transmission btw rooms? Would a large diy absorption panel with rockwool hung on the wall help much?
Thanks for your question! We’ll answer that fully in the next episode in the series, but the short answer is that there isn’t an uninvasive way to block that. If it’s vocal frequencies then you might be able to get a noticeable improvement by adding some mass loaded vinyl to that wall and then a couple of sheets of plasterboard, or plywood/mdf and plasterboard sandwich with MLV sandwiched between those. Then add rockwool based panels to the front of that and you should find things have improved considerably
@@PresentDayProduction Lovely. Thanks for that. I look forward to the next vid!
I suppose I'll have to find a way to sort of tart this up so it's not too awful looking. Would it work to put part of that assembly, maybe the vinyl, on one side of the wall and the plasterboard and rockwool on the wall in the other room?
Acoustic treatment is basically crack for audiophiles.
The tuned traps I have 2 GIK T70 are tuned to 70hz and are only 11cm deep, they sit behind the left and right speakers, fabulous…..but, only to be used if you have the other frequencies taken care of with velocity traps used correctly (6” thick and with an air gap). If you want to treat below 100hz you really have to figure out where the pressure is and put a tuned trap at the frequency and position. Difficult and expensive. You can also use traps that have a membrane over the velocity trap, they get down to 40hz (just) and do definitely work. I have 9 “Range Limited” traps from GIK (mostly on the ceiling corners) and they definitely do treat well below 100hz.
I’d love to treat the mode I have at 37hz but… the traps GIK have to treat it are 27cm x60cm x60cm and cost £200 shipped. As you mentioned, I’d need about 4-6 of them to actually treat 37hz because of the vast energy it carries. So, I live with it. At £800 - £1200 for one or two notes it’s just too expensive to justify considering the entire rest of the room was treated for £4000 with diffusers and is well treated down to 50hz
Lastly the foam wedge things people have *can absorb bass* !!!
People just use them wrong, I’ve tested and if you turn them around so the corner is facing out, they have a deep varied air gap into the corner, the 30cm triangles definitely go below 100hz when set up in this way. I may make a video about this. So long as the material (foam or fibreglass) is deep enough, it will absorb bass. The trouble is people put them flush with no air gap and the performance is very poor when set up like this.
I recently saw an interview with an acoustician, and he said to create an airtight air gap behind the absorption panels. Have you ever heard of this? Does it actually affect the treatment in anyway?
any idea of how to go about diffusion assuming your room is big enough!?
Yep - it’s a long answer, so we’ll feature your question in the next video. Thanks for asking!
I have some 2” Panels that have wood on the entire backside. Will the air still be effective or does the rear have to have exposed material?
Where did you get the idea diffusion is only effective 3 meters away? It depends depth of the diffuser.
Your videos are really awesome. I have a question hopefully you can answer. I have made 4 8-inch corner bass absorption from Rockwool for each corner. I wrapped them in industrial plastic (the thinnest available) first then added fabric. will the plastic be a problem for the bass absorption??
It shouldn’t affect the bass absorption if it’s thin. The bass will have enough energy to get through the plastic and still be absorbed
@@PresentDayProduction Thank you 🙏
I have a narrow small studio where my seat point is in the middle of the room facing the long wall. If I could describe it as a galley style room. None of my walls are parallel including my ceiling but I want to add some sound absorbing panels. But unsure what to do? My thoughts were if I can kill off the sounds that bounce around at present I can then hear more of the quality of the music I am playing through my speakers……? Does that make sense of not? I have a very limited budget.
Start with absorption at your first reflection points (including the ceiling). These can easily be found by running a mirror along the walls until you can see your speakers - that’s where you want the acoustic treatment. And make it as thick as possible and space it off the walls if you can.
I have a slanted walls with a pitched ceiling. Where would I put the absorbers on my walls?
Start with your first reflection points (walls AND ceiling if you can) and then take it from there
Another really helpful video guys-thank you! My issue is with controlling bass frequencies in seating position. I have rug under my desk and speakers are on stands so are not directly on the desk, but I can still feel bass vibrations on floor-even at low level and room is to bass heavy/boomy. I have some acoustic treatment on side walls and bass traps in available corners. However, it’s a very small outbuilding (6ft x12ft) which is elevated from the ground by about 1/2 foot. I wondered whether sand bags under outbuilding would help with controlling bass perhaps ? Or would it be better to treat the ceiling and more side walls within the building with more acoustic panels? 1st reflections points are already treated (sidewalls). Also is diffusion and absorption mix better for ceiling or just absorption?? Many thanks in advance:-)
Firstly, just absorption. Diffusion only works from around 3 metres away, so don’t go down that route. As for the bass issues, I’d maybe try and find where the floor is resonating, and maybe add some sheet material to that, but not before upping the speaker isolation - if you can stop that bass getting into the floor in the first place then that’s your best course of action 👍
@@PresentDayProduction thank you, really helpful as per usual😄👍🏾. So would you say ceiling still needs treating? Would that improve things in bass end by doing so? I have NS10’s on iso stands on desk, which is helping (and as bass end is lacking in NS10’s is lacking anyway) and i have ilouds micros which are on K&M small mic stands. These are the main offenders! Not sure what else to put them on? Any suggestions as remaining desk space is fairly limited?? Many thanks in advance. Thanks again!
Hi Ria, I’d always try and treat the ceiling if you can, with absorption, starting with the first reflection points. That will only really affect the bass end if there is build up at that point, and that’s most likely to be in the corners of the room, and if it’s thick enough and spaced sufficiently from the wall/ceiling. So I’d put some absorption on the ceiling aimed at stopping reflections in the mids and highs and that will clear up your stereo imaging nicely too, then look to add bass trapping by walking around the boundaries of the room, listening to where bass build up is, working out what frequency range the main issues are in and then seeing if you can get some bass trapping in at those points. As for speaker placement, it’s all about experimentation really. A brick or two on the desk is probably going to be a better support than the mic stands for your iLouds, or maybe even try them on top of the NS10s with a couple of blobs of blu-tac separating them for starters? If that works then you can invest in some isolation pucks for those (or just keep the blu-tac!)
@@PresentDayProduction cannot thank you enough. Some really useful advice given, which I really appreciate. Although, in my small space (6x12) I don’t think I will need to do much walking around😄!! I am going to start with experimenting as you suggested with Speaker placement and I like the blue tac tip!! Great, I think I have some good starting points and so I feel much more confident going forward. Thanks so much once again. Your doing some amazing stuff on this channel which is pretty invaluable and it also helps that it is coming from people that appears to really know what they are talking about-which helps:-). I always learn so much from watching you guys and come away feeling inspired to create! Best wishes
Put the speaker stands on isolators. Suspended floors and directly coupled speakers can be very bad. You can get very inexpensive ones from Tuneful Cables (made from cork and rubber).
I had the same issue, isolating the speakers was the single biggest improvement I have made to my system.
Is "reflection free zone" placement best?
Yes, if you can!
I would like to make gobos, could I make one side absorbing and one side defusing? Any thoughts would greatly appreciated.
The only issue I see is that if the diffusing side is solid then any sound entering the absorptive side hits that 'wall' and bounces back. You drastically reduce the effectiveness of the absorptive panel.
Yes you could but ,as Rob Burgess says in his reply, don’t add a solid sheet material to the diffusion side. Add the diffusion over the absorption. We’ll cover this in the next video, so thank you for the excellent question!
Great! I can't wait for the information. I am planning on making some big Gobos my studio, I am researching how I best design them. I am not sure how to describe the ones I have seen. Best I can describe them is on one side it fabric and on the other is vertical planks of wood spaced a few inches apart on an angle.... So not solid. Hahaha
I'm about to put up my home studio some panels and I would love some tips of how to put them up with an air gap. The panels are 120cmx60cmx10cm and I would like at least a 5cm air gap. Can you guys please show some light to my problem? Thanks a ton!
The easiest way is to mount wooden battens to the wall and then fix the panels to those rather than the wall itself. But we’re working on a better solution to this common problem, so watch this space!
@@PresentDayProduction I knew I could count in you guys! Cheers!
Hi Mark, when you built membrane pressure traps did you use the design equations for tuning them to specific problem frequencies? I have built around 20 membrane pressure traps using these equations with good results. For a membrane pressure trap with no insulation within it, I use f=170/root (mxd). For a membrane pressure trap with insulation within it, I use f=143/root (mxd). Where m is the weight of the membrane in LBS/square foot and d is the depth of the trap in inches. Using insulation reduces the absorption coefficient of the trap and increases the bandwidth. So far I haven't found any equations to calculate the bandwidth. I use rubber sheet in various thicknesses for the membrane which works well.
Hi Jim, thanks for your comment! Yes, we spent a lot of time measuring and working out what specific frequencies we needed to absorb, and where. And results were mixed. Next time around (coming soon as we’re going to be building a brand new Atmos room next year) I’m going purely for porous absorption at sufficient depth (over a metre in places)!
@@PresentDayProduction Hi Mark and thanks for your prompt reply. In my listening room which is only 13' by 11' I've ended up using 35 traps all floor to ceiling. I used 50% porous and 50% membrane types. I found that too many porous traps killed the room and made it sound lacking in treble. Some time ago I tried using my equipment outside in a large tent in my back garden.
Sounded wonderful and no traps required. Not sure what the neighbours thought.
can a bunch of towels as filling of acustic panels be any good? also when using like 30 layers of it per panel?
Yep, towels are great! I think there was a scientific test that proved they’re actually better than rockwool/fibreglass
@@PresentDayProduction thanks guys for ur answer. I then can build out my studio properly with them. keep it up. love ur content. greetings from southern germany 👌👌
Thank you Marc! Greetings to you too - we’ll feature your question in the next episode, it’s a great one! Thanks again
Hi Mark,
I've got a question regarding the acoustic panels. So if you or anyone else could help me would be much appreciated. Did you use any fabric like black garden fabric before putting on the "decorative" or the acoustically transparent fabric layer? I have read many mixed reviews about Rockwool. Some people say that most insulation material does not seem to pose a serious health threat. Some others say they could potentially be harmful to our health. So does anyone know whether these materials could be dangerous for our health?
Thanks, Chris
Hi Chris, technically Rockwool and many other forms of insulation do contain a small amount of formaldehyde and various other ‘toxins’ and so you should always wear a mask when handling it. Once it’s in though, it really needs agitating to release and particles into the air, and most breathable fabric will stop that even if it does happen. Many, many, many video and film studios have their enormous ceilings lined with Rockwool with no covering whatsoever. I usually double up fabric because the frame behind almost always seems to show through (painting it matt black can help) and so that offers double protection anyway. Hope that helps! M
@@PresentDayProduction Hi Mark,
Many thanks for your prompt response. Indeed, I've seen many videos and studios using Rockwool without any other extra protection, just using a simple acoustically transparent fabric. So If I understood correctly, having just one layer of fabric should be enough unless I double up, then I will get extra protection. Is that right?
Would you recommend any breathable fabric as I have found one which looks and works really well, but it costs around £11 for 170 widths.
Studio Cat!
Floppy rules!!
Floppy rules!!
Proper room acoustic treatment costs a fortune. Much more than the monitors themselves. The price of a couple of 60x60 cm diffusers, or wideband absorbers, easily exceeds that of an economic pair of studio monitor speakers. And you need LOTS of diffusers and absorbers, to get any noticeable effect. DIY is cheaper, but is time consuming, and time is money...
Numero Deuce
I don't see the roasting option in the comments
Can the roast be delivered?
We NEED a roast delivery service in the UK!! Anyone? Anyone???
@@PresentDayProduction anyone’s ante up to do it?
.. what if I like the look of saggy, dirty, stained duvets hanging off my wall ?? lololo :)
6” only accounts for 600 hz? You kidding me?
For porous absorption, yes. You need a quarter wavelength in thickness to absorb a particular frequency, so with a 50hz waveform being 22.6ft, you’d need absorption just under 6 FEET deep to absorb it!
@@PresentDayProduction I quit
6th 🤦♂️
The look of a room? Really? I don't think GIK or Real Traps look nice. The GIK quadratic diffusors are junk IMO. They make them out of pressboard or a cheap particle board and use staples. I saw a unboxing video on those many years ago and the guy was unboxing one of GIK's quadratic diffusors and the corner was coming apart and he showed an up close shot of it, and it's just REALLY cheaply made garbage. I'm afraid their thin slats that separate each well will start to warp. The things practically fall apart during shipping.
Also, those panels with holes of slats? Those are just a gimmick. They reflect and absorb, they ARE NOT Diffusors.. I'm not impressed by their absorption curves..
What kind of idiot flies a delicate drone through a thick forest canopy?
James 🤣
Trap? Do you mean like a MOUSE TRAP? Trapping is not the correct term. I would expect proper word usage from you.. Cheers.