Speaker Placement: How far from the wall should I place my speakers?
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- čas přidán 23. 03. 2021
- The reflections directly surrounding the speakers can cause all sorts of acoustic issues. In this video, we beak down the science behind Speaker Boundary Interference Response and how to counteract it's affects.
Free Advice:
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Monster Bass Trap:
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"Speaker placement can have a drastic impact on your frequency response, but the ideal location for your monitors is going to change based on your room size, personal preference, and whether or not you’re using a subwoofer.
Just looking at a speaker, we might infer that all of the sound is projected out of the front face. This is mostly true for the higher frequencies, but lower frequencies radiate in a sphere around the speaker meaning that they can create reflections and pressure zones on any of the surfaces directly surrounding them.
This is where the concept of Speaker Boundary Interference Response comes into play. Just like how the first reflections off our side walls can cause interference, the reflections off the front wall, side wall and floor can also cause issues directly surrounding the speakers.
No matter the distance from the speaker to the wall, there will always be phase interference at the frequencies that correlate to that distance.
So any distance between your speaker and your wall will create phase cancellation at 1/4th the wavelength. This is because after the sound reflects off the wall back to the speaker position it has traveled one half of the wavelength and arrives at the sound source 180 degrees out of phase with the original sound.
At one half the wavelength to the wall the sound travels the full length of the wave so it’s completely in phase when it bounces back to the speaker.
There are a few different strategies to mitigating these effects. Many high end studios build their speakers into the walls to eliminate the extra reflections all together, but this isn’t always an option for those with budget or space constraints.
One common solution is to bring your speakers out four feet or more from the front and side walls. This will ensure that the phase interference occurs in lower ranges that can be rerouted through your subwoofer instead of your front speakers."
This isn’t always viable in a smaller room and it requires that you have a subwoofer that can work at a high enough frequency to pick up where the stereo monitors cut off. You’ll still need to deal with the Boundary interference when it comes to placing the subwoofer.
The further the speaker is from the wall the lower the affected frequencies, So pulling the speaker out far enough to place acoustic treatment behind it often causes the interference to dip below the effective range of the panel. If we can place the speakers far enough out that the interference is mostly below the audible range, then we can treat behind the speakers with Soffits or range limited monsters to clean up the rest.
For smaller rooms it’s better, to place the spreaker as close to the front wall as possible, without actually touching. This will minimize any SB interference and you can then focus treatment around the speaker.
No matter where you place your speakers you’ll want to avoid having the same distance between multiple surfaces. If the distances from the speaker to the side wall and the front wall are the same then the same peaks and nulls will manifest from both sets of reflections which in turn will stack and create even larger peaks and nulls. This is also true for your floor as well.
If you are in the mood it’s well worth playing around with your speaker placement. In my experience even budget speakers can produce some unusual and mind blowing results when placed in the certain positions.
Absolutely! Not only is the speaker placement a key part of the foundation of a good room, but it also serves to set the groundwork for an especially effective acoustic treatment strategy - making even the most humble speakers sound better. We've got a few videos on the different subject of speaker placement: czcams.com/video/mcB1jKs_ifU/video.html
Measuring room modes:
czcams.com/video/TiIIHztRqCA/video.html
Strategies for different shaped rooms:
czcams.com/video/wOTAS7ncihI/video.html
I just bough some Sanyun Amazon speakers for my living room, and goodness gracious...! I've worked in hi-fi and I have never heard such tight bass response from any speaker near this size. It feels like there's a subwoofer in the room at times, and the woofer are 3" carbon fiber drivers...!!! :O
I put each of 'em on either side of a square shelf in the corner of my living room, about 4 meters in the air, angled down and as close to the walls as possible. God almighty - they're not flat, no, they have a noticeable mid scoop, but it's right in the sweet spot for talking with guests! The sound is warm and lush and that bass... better than my production speakers which cost many more pesos. And so far I haven't tested the DAC, so this is *without* DSP. They cost 80 bucks.
The level of fidelity you can get nowadays with budget speakers is absolutely ridiculous. Take it from someone who assembled high-end hi-fi speakers : I don't buy them. I'd rather go with a brand who invest in actual engineering, like Edifier, Sanyun, or Rockit for studio use. The fancy hi-fi brands are left in the dust by miles by those little boxes. Damn.
Agree. I’m getting more clarity from my Neumann KH120s than a local studio is from their ATC SCM50s because I had the patience to find exactly the right spot for them through lots of experimentation. A proud feat of mine!
Wow one of the quickest most detailed speakers placement videos on the tube!! Thanks for real info not dumbed down too far *****
Glad it was helpful!
This is an outstanding video! Never seen a better video show the placement like this. Fantastic work.
Thank you very much!
Clear and concise video on this topic, which is very rare on this topic.
Thanks for these such well made videos! I love learning about acoustics. I know you have a few videos about diffusion already, but I’d love to see one showcasing the GridFusors 👍
Glad you like them! Perhaps we'll make a product video on those soon. Stay tuned and be sure to subscribe.
All very nice if you have a dedicated sound room, otherwise it's the wife that dictates speaker placement and that usually means in some corner out of sight.
Why do you let wife dictate your life?
😂 so right!!
Jesus so women read comments like that and I wonder why they want to get married 🤦🏿♂️..
That’s your problem. This is very useful information.
Sounds like a “you” problem. Lol. I’m sure it was a joke.
Finally a good video about this subject. Took me ages to learn this on my own.
Glad it was helpful!
Hmm. Needs a bit more arguing on Gearspace, though.
Great video, it is clear, simple, and easy to understand. I learned a lot, more than 1-hour videos. And his voice... I can listen to anything for long hours :)
Glad it helped and that you enjoyed the voice!
Excellent information! Thank you : )
Glad it was helpful!
Such good information, thanks
Glad it was helpful!
FINALLY, a video about placement that uses common sense and great knowledge! I'm a sound engineer yet didn't knew about the wavelength thing. It's very logical. I also find that placing your speaker high-up and then angling them down in smaller rooms works wonders for phase issues and really open-up the sound. I used to always put PA speakers around 7 feet in the air in any small club. I could even do it alone (not recommended). The difference was really big! I don't believe in the whole "put the speaker at head level" thing from experience. Right now my system is set up on each side of a square shelf in the corner, meaning the distance between speakers and wall is about 20x smaller than the distance between speakers and floor, and there are pretty much as close to the wall as possible, and a good few feet away from the ceiling. Modern small speakers tend to have a very narrow and focused image, which is great for small rooms since you do not need them to stand further appart than a few feet. Glad to know my instinct isn't bad :)
This was helpful, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
I’m dealing with a crap small room so genelec SAM series monitors with the tuning kit and a SAM series subwoofer have made all the difference!!!
Genelec is a great brand, no doubt. The benefits you get just from setting up speakers correctly is the necessary primer for the best possible acoustics. It sounds like you have set up a solid foundation!
The best advise is to place speakers close to the front wall as much as possible and the minimum for rear ported speakers is actually the diameter of the port. Everyone can mesure with REW and check it. That is why I like the example of flush mounted speakers in studios. The low frequency interference from the front wall is the worst effect in sound. “Audiophiles” did not understood this yet for some reason.
Interesting take to say "in smaller rooms, it is best to place speakers close to the wall and focus treatment around the monitors" I can see why...I thought more distance was generally better so I'd manage what I could.
Directivity is complex, and boundaries are often resonant / full of group delay.
Soffit mounted mains are amazing.
“ The more I know, the less I understand
All the things I thought I knew, I'm learning again”- Don Henley
This is super basic stuff of acoustics..
The more you learn, the more you find out you don't know.
@@Callatis Yes, and Dunning - Kruger effect is VERY real.
Bro u put the “ around the guys name😭😭
@@pfeilerbeats 😂😂😂😂 sorry
Thank you!
Mind blown about the tip for small rooms to place speaker against wall (without touching). Will try it out!
How did it go
@@Adam9306 it's better, room correction didn't have to work as hard (I have a ton of bass trapping and so Sonarworks was boosting lows), and I gained a foot of space in my room.
How big is the room? Mine is around 3 X 3.5 MTR but with a pitched ceiling.. which I'm hoping will be an advantage😂
Best video on speaker placement! 😎🎧
Wow, thanks!
Que vídeo sensacional!
Great video! Thank u
Glad you liked it!
Really good video 👍🏻
Glad you liked it!
New sub, brilliant channel!
Thanks and welcome!
On a surface, bring em as close to the edge as possible for bass response. I theorise that theres more room for the lower frequencies to resonate within the material.
I initially heard this advice and took it to heart. Then I later heard people talk about ports and passive radiators and how they behave differently closer to a wall, mainly with rear ported designs needing to be pulled further away from the wall, while front ported can be a bit closer to the wall. Because of that, I actually started assuming the positioning regarding walls mostly concerns ported and passive radiator speakers, while sealed/acoustic suspension speakers are much less affected.
But this video again would indicate that all speakers need to consider their placement in regards to walls.
Couple of questions/takeaways I still have about this:
1) I have seen people say that walls are what you should consider, so if you have something like a bookcase between the speaker and the wall, that's still fine if the distance to the wall is decent. I assume it has something to do with how the bookcase would help to further diffuse rest of the backwave, while the wall would help to bounce it or make the room sound bassy? The bookcase isn't as solid and flat of an object as a wall, so it would dissipate the backwave a little bit, reflect it a little bit, and lastly muffle the last bits of the wave reflecting from the wall behind it?
2) Would front ported/passive radiator designs still behave differently in regards to phase interference from the wall? To my understanding, the port/radiator becomes another source of bass noise, extending the frequency response lower. Since the port/radiator is producing some of the much lower frequencies that the driver isn't directly producing, would there still be the similar type of risk of phase interference? So the frequencies coming directly from the woofer are more affected, while the port/radiator frequencies are less affected?
My understanding is that front ported speakers are better because rear ported introduce more complexity and problems.
and yet front ported can also have their issues especially when they aren't designed to mitigate midrange frequencies leaking out of them, or having chuffing noise at higher volume/certain frequencies, which will be more audible seeing as it's not hidden around the back @@yt555555
I think the conventional wisdom about rear ports are true. If it's actually against the wall it will literally mess with how the driver breathes so there is a different and unique physical limitation that is more real for rear-ported monitors. I'm not sure what this means but it might mean you need a baseline of several inches just to respect the reality of a rear port design. Not too big of a deal...
6 inches increase to a foot from wall with adjusted toe in drastically improved volume and clarity. It was scary. Makes wonder what else I'm doing wrong.
I'm putting a flexrange monster traps behind my mains and crossing my fingers
Wow .... I had no idea
Hi GIK acoustics, so say a wall mounted rear ported bookshelf wont be as boomy for a small 3.9m listening position? thanks
This is amazing! So if I were to calculate the phase correlation of a sine wave playing from my speaker at 40 Hz with 50 cm from the wall, how would I do that? :)) Which formula would I use?
Hi Jack! Here are the two options regarding the quarter-wavelength: If you want to calculate which dip in Hz a distance will cause, it's (343/distance in meters)/4, if you have the frequency of the dip and want to look for distances (in meters) that might cause it go for (343/dip frequency in Hz)/4. 343 is the speed of sound in m/s at 20 degrees Celsius, dry air. ;-)
This is why I bought dutch&dutch monitors
$12,500 per pair...is that all? That's pretty funny. I purchased a pair of KRK Rokit 7 G4's for $480 and I have no issues achieving balanced mixes. If you think you need to spend that much to render good mixes,you are doing something terribly wrong.
I only have a AV receiver but ever since I moved my stereos away from the back and side walls, it now sounds like he's going through a dedicated amplifier 😲
Very good video! I have my stereo system set up in a small room and made sure to put at least a foot of distance from the walls on each side of them. I was going to make some rockwool panels, but judging from this video, it seems like it would be better to push them closer to the walls (with a bit of uneven distance). I am still turning them inward to point toward me, so I wonder if that will have a negative effect as the back of the speaker points almost directly at the corner.
Glad it helped! Let us know how it goes. It's no secret bass builds up in corners, so a proper bass trapping strategy will ensure you have that covered as well. Of course if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC I pushed my speakers to about 4" from the back wall and a foot from the side walls. Very noticeable improvement all around.
how big is small?
Nice presentation but remember to consider the ceiling as a boundary, as well as the floor and walls
does it matter if the speaker has no hole on the back for the wall seperation or does it still create the same coutnerwaves?
I just put speakers on corner for louder response , works well on subs, it gives nice thumping BASS on chest
That works if it's for your own entertainment or music production, but for mixing and sound design purposes, it's not recommended. That's because you will render the track thinking it sounds one way, but when anyone else plays it on a different device, it will sound completely different.
This is why I gave up with bookshelfs and just got a soundbar. This is completely nuts for small room applications.
What is the curvature like for the dip? How many Db per octave?
I have speaker in a room and can recommend it, too 😁
good
Free acoustic advice? Boy am I gonna make you sweat by presenting you with my room :D
I'm just joking of course, but my room really is a challenge, that's no lie.
Oooh jeez idk if I wanted to know this, this is going to make me a control freak
Can you elaborate on the 1:58 mark? Are you suggesting an acustic panel behind a monitor that is close to a wall is not a good idea?
Same here
the Room Perfect developed by Peter Lyngdorf WIL fix this. Another point is that the midrange and treble are direction oriented sound waves. Some a bit more than others depending on the voicing of the elements from the developer. So you will not get first reflection behind the speaker above ≈600 Hertz.
Bass, on the other hand, is omni directional and hits the back wall. Romperfect clears this up. Try listening to Steinway Lyngdorf model D, B, S, or O. which has been calibrated with Room Perfect....This is som of the worlds best sounding systems, if not THE best. But you can use Room Perfect with any speaker, and it vill higly improve the sound signature.
What I agree with you on however, is that the best result is to place the speaker in the wall. Then you completely eliminate the rear wall reflection, and If you then run Room Perfect on you build in speakers, in addition to a well acoustically treated room, you will get an absolute perfect acoustic and sonically result.
I have a paire of speakers and the one closed to the wall have a more rich bass reflex than the other with distanced from the wall
If I have a square ish room of 13.5” x 11” x 8.75” is it best to place the speakers far enough from the wall to slip an acoustic panel? Or would that not work good enough
After seeing this, I can more understand why my current sound setup appears to have a hollow, echo-like sound. Unfortunately, there isn't anything I can do about speaker placement. I may have to look into diffusing panels.
We just moved into a new house and the house has wood floors. The room only has a solid back and front wall. The two adjacent spaces are wide open. I am running a pair of vintage DCM Time Frame 600s. They have high-pitched tweeters at 45 degree angles towards the back. That send sound everywhere. and it has no surface to bounce off, so they continue to travel down a hallway and into an adjacent room. I have two subwoofers set to 70 hertz cut-off (The DCMs go down to 30 hertz). The bass is intense, but the higher frequencies seem like they getting rolled off.
Should I use diffuse panels or get rugs for the floor to attempt to mitigate any echo or attempt to contain the sound within the space? I wish one could post photos on CZcams, it's much easier to explain with pictures. :)
Thanks for sharing. You seem to have a couple of goals here, but there are absolutely ways to tighten up your acoustic strategy. First, Freestanding panels are the obvious choice because they are moveable and can be taken out when not used. Of course, you'll want to focus on treating your first reflections and corners for bass trapping first. If you'd like more advice, please send us your room pictures and information at www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
We also have a detailed video breaking down the effects of hardwood floors and other things in the room that people commonly attribute to having an impact on acoustics, and how to mitigate and understand them easily: czcams.com/video/-TEJrOsNG_M/video.html.
hello, first of all thank you for this video!
I'm having a massive dip in 100hz ( -18db), the speakers are NS10s placed about 25cm from the front wall (10cm air gap + 10 cm absorption behind the speakers.
The sound is phasey at listening position.
If I use the formula of 1/4 with 100hz it points to 85cm from the wall for the cancellation and I'm much closer to the wall. What could be my problem? Should I try to remove the back panel and put de speakers directly agains the wall. I also have clouds and sidewall panels, all of them 10cm thickness.
The distance is measured from the driver? Also there are many other ways in which you could get cancellations. Height from floor? From side walls? Your head from the rear wall? Room dimensions can also create peaks and nulls.
I have extremely limited space so they're literally an inch or less from the wall... There just isn't more space. Sounds fine too.
Can we lesson outside, near a giant airport, not loosing time with walls ?
My room is 12x12 and I have a bonham sized drum set, an average sized drum set, 3 guitar amps and a bass amp and 5 synthesizers and my computer. I don’t really have a choice about where I put my speakers lmao but some day I will!
How do we know what distance is 1/4th or 1/2 the wavelength so as to not cause phase cancellation?
Air speed/ freq = distance so freq = distance / airspeed
What happens if you put a pair of speakers all the way in the corners?
Thanks! Would that be 4 feet from the TRUE WALL or treated inner wall?
Excellent question. I also would love to know this.
@Mike Glavin Great!
the true wall
The "wall" in this instance is characterised by a reflective surface (in the lower register), which is what causes the SBIR. Assuming your treatment on the inner wall is absorptive, it'll certainly be measured from the reflective 'true' wall.
@@MarcusJayMusic yes my inner walls are absorptive. Thanks.
How did y’all get in to business?
You also want to make sure that the distance from the wall is not an even division of the distance between the opposing walls, as that would reinforce the primary room modes. You could possibly consider using a set of ratios between the 4 surfaces, floor ceiling, side & back wall. To space this out evenly to ensure the effects are spread out over an octave, we can take the ratio 2 raised to the power of 4 ^1/4, giving 1, 1.129, 1.414, 1.682. In most rooms with low ceilings take the 2 smallest numbers & place the speaker height to divide the ceiling height in that ratio, then use the other 2 numbers to space the speaker from the back & side walls. If the room is tall like a concert hall, use the 2 largest numbers to divide the vertical space & the smaller numbers for the distance from walls.
Doing this ensures that the reflected phases are even spread through each octave & therefore minimally noticeable. The only caveat is that we also need to avoid reinforcing primary room modes, so we don't want the speaker wall distances to be an even division of the room length or width. We want to keep the speaker out of phase with room mode frequencies so that these are not reinforced by the speaker. There are a number of room mode calculators on line, but these tend to only work with. simple rooms. You can check room modes, by making up a tone file in say audacity or other music editing software. This should be each semitone across the entire audio spectrum. Standard concert pitch is based on A, 440 Hz a semitone is multiply or dividing that by 2^(1/12) as a multiple of 2 is and octave & there are 12 semitones in a octave. multiplying or dividing each preceding frequency by this number will give you each concert pitch tone from 20 Hz to 20000Hz. Now you can use the music editor software to generate a sine wave tone at event concert pitch frequency and save that to a music file. Play that file in mono with your speaker jammed into a corner, then walk up and down and across the room listening to each tone. When a room mode is played you will hear the tone beating loud & soft (it may totally disappear at a particular spot) as you move around, so write down each room mode frequency. This will allow you to tweak your speaker placement to minimise the strength of room modes. You will not be able to eliminate them, they are inerrant to all rooms, but you can minimise their strength. There are various room mode calculators online, these can predict the room mode frequencies for simple rectangular rooms. There are certain room ratios that are well known to minimise the number of room modes. Concert hall design tends to follow these ratios, however, domestic rooms never do and are very far from ideal. Also, ensuring room surfaces are a little off being parallel & not square to each other disrupts room modes, but homes are not built that way. So you are out of luck, unless to specifically design for sound or reline a larger existing room to be off square, deliberately alter it's geometric ratios, out of square & no parallel surfaces or edges. In short, all rooms are problematic.
I could build my speakers into my walls, but wouldn't that limit my options if I wanted to upgrade in the future?
What about speakers that are physically deep? Say you have speakers like mine that are 27" deep, even if I moved them almost touching the front wall, the drivers would still be over 27" from the front wall.
At what specific measures you define a small room?
Right now the room my studio is in measures: Width: 3.16m . Length: 2.80m. Height: 2.18m.
With one door on each width wall...
Oh I like what you’ve got going on in the corner. Looks like a wood diffuser.
How could that be?
Usually with most people, especially us guys, speaker placement is almost entirely about the "wifey factor", because if SHE ain't happy with where you're ideally "supposed" to place your speakers, then it simply ain't happening, and then YOU ain't too happy either as a result, because of the compromise in sound quality from having to put your speakers where they don't perform their best, just so that they "look" more asthetically pleasing to her!...
But I guess for this main reason, it's really nice to be single myself! I don't have to answer to anyone else or tolerate their limitations on my being able to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and however I want!
Divorce the wife, place the speakers wherever you want.
Wife speaker placement cancellation factor - LMAO.
Some of it can be compensated with dsp, but there's really not much we can do about standing waves.
I need a chart of speaker to wall distances and the resulting frequency conflicts.
Great Video.. One question though, What would you consider a 'small room' where you're better off putting the speakers close to the wall?
In this case it would just be any room where you can't have your speakers more than four feet from the wall. So anything smaller than 18 feet long and you'll probably need to push them closer, but for rooms around that threshold it'd be useful to experiment with both placements.
A competing factor with wall proximity is where your listening position will be. Following a pretty reliable "rule of thirds" and acknowledging you have to stay away from the middle of the room is important to consider when placing your speakers. One problem can be as bad as the other.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC I think your math is off. At 4 feet, your cancellation frequency will be around 70Hz, which is still well inside the range of what what most correct speakers will produce. The usual recommandation is to place your speakers more than 7 feet away from your front walls, or avoid taking them away at all.
@@budroe4057 Unfortunately, in most rooms the « rule of third » will actually place your speakers exactly where they shouldn’t be. Any room that measures between 3m (9 feet) and 7m (22 feet) long will result in your speakers being between 1 to 2.2 m (3′-3″ to 7′-3″) which is the worst spot due to SBIR.
@@Maxime-ho9iv so what do you suggest where to place the speakers in a room with a size 4.5x4 meters? Close to the wall?
👌
I guess that i'm in the last category....
I mean, the length of the wall is 4,34 m and the width is nearly 2,4 meters.
So,it's a narrow place for home studio....
I can't place my desk 4 feet ( circa 1,5 m ) far from the wall because there will be no room for me to sit ( !!!! ) and it would feel uncomfortable!
So,if i place my desk let's say about 70 cm far from the wall,and the speakers exactly 50 cm from the wall, am i right or wrong?
PS : My desk is about 1,5m long.
What about rear ported monitor? Should I put it as close to the wall as possible?
You can put a rear-port speaker very close to the wall without much concern. My engineer said I could put my large, rear dual-ported speakers like around eight inches if necessary.
5cm said by Genelec.
This is an even less of an issue if your monitors are towed in towards ears for the equilateral triangle listening position. The extra space created is typically enough for 7" cones. 8" cones might be a different topic though and I don't have any personal experience with that specific setup.
some say speakers should not be directly next to the wall, because that makes the sound stage less 3D - it supposedly elimates sound depth. Not sure how they see speakers which are mounted in the wall. i wonder what everyone thinks of this whole aspect.
Speakers placed within the wall, as defined in this video, does mostly eliminate the effects of SBIR, although it's not typically a viable option for most people because it usually requires construction. Using thick bass traps behind the speakers and placing them the right distance from each wall is a good way to help to reduce the effects of SBIR for those who don't have the resources or time to create an in-wall speaker setup.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC I agree. But it's still unclear to me whether it's actually a good idea to put speakers in a wall or right next to a wall (with or without thick absorbers). Yes, both strategies elimate Sbir, but some say it also reduces the depth of the soundstage.
@@SuperTWIY give it a try and see
@@CallumSk8er From my experience not putting them next to the wall does increase depth. But I should try again and listen with closed eyes...
@@SuperTWIY it does yes
It is hard to imagine that placing a speaker up against the front wall would not be deleterious to soundstage imaging. Even if one compensated by placing traps right next to it wouldn't it create a problem for the average room for soundstage?
No, it probably won't create a soundstage problem, but try it and see. As always, experimentation wins.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC In fact placing speakers close to the front wall, in any room, almost always destroys soundstage depth, imaging, three-dimensionality. Your video contradicts many other speaker placement methods, including Cardas (golden ratio), Wilson Audio's (WASP), "Master set" method, LOTS - all of them suggest that speaker should never be placed close to the front wall
@@audiofun999 Except that SBIR is a very well known acoustic effect, which is proven and can be verified by yourself. Most other rules or methods are pure hearsay and nothing else.
It doesn’t mean placing your speakers directly close to the wall won’t have an effect on soundstage, but it definitely means that placing them between 1 to 2.2 m (3′-3″ to 7′-3″) from the front wall will have a huge impact on this critical 40 - 100 Hz low frequency band.
If you have more than 7 feet, you have no issue, otherwise it’s a matter of compromise.
Note: I realize the vid' is just a brief blurb, so to speak, but it is so generalized in terms of "small room" and "large room" (and how that component is reacting), that it's unhelpful to many of us. And, since room size is one of the two main considerations you identify, this diminishes the value of the video by about half. In fact, isn't the long-side length about 35+ feet before it is usually getting to the "large" category of rooms? I've read that even 24' is still on the smaller side. Second, you should have a link to another video regarding the problem (and solution) in terms of the recommended side-wall : front wall ratio.
The measurement to keep in mind is four feet. So if your room is large enough so that you can place your speakers four feet out from the wall then you should having them out from the wall, and if there isn't enough room, place them close to the wall as possible. Rooms that are on the threshold you'll need to experiment with. We can't really tell you exactly what will happen in your room acoustically just based on the dimensions alone. All we can do is explain the science behind it and give you an idea of what to expect as you move your speakers around.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC Makes good sense. Nice way to put it. In my room, it puts the listening position at the 40% mark, and it was a huge improvement over bass-heavy next to the wall setup. I did lose a bit too much bass though. Yet, that was with speaks at 70" out from wall, 86" apart, 31" from sides, and toed to shoulders.
The ceiling is also a boundary. 😂
Question is then, how do i determine the distance? I have a pair of monitor audio gx200 golds. And the manual states a rather broad range of distance. Keep dragging 25 kg back and forth seems to be, well, a drag. So how do you determine the distance?
you cant every room is different , sounds different, cancels and amplifies different frequencies .
what you can do is put the speakers on some furniture dollies and roll them around until you find a spot
that sounds intriguing then mount them there for further testing
I always use my ear when setting up speakers. I don't care for numbers and calculations, as long the music sounds pleasant to my ear, I'm happy.
I agreed with you,since on internet infos are so confusing,better use your ears,if sound good is good,too much numbers with no straight solution is headache.
So it's best to place the speakers right next to a wall if its a small room...What is the definition of a "small" room?
Typically less than 1,500 ft3
I got peaks, I got knolls, I got reflections... my system sounds incredible.
yeah I mean unless theyre so severe that they ruin the sound then it doesn't matter. Unless you're mixing tracks and then its a huge issue
Cal, thank you. I also don't have a choice. My listening room is what it is and unless I buy a new house...
How about a book
What? I shouldn't place acoustic treatment behind monitors? DAMN. I have Adams T7V placed on the length of bass reflex woofer (7cm) from the acoustic panel... Is it bad choice?
It's not bad, however it will only affect lower frequencies - and therefor you need deep bass trap panels behind the speakers to make a difference!
I hope someone can answer my question. Is it on to move speakers while they play music or should I pause the music move the speakers then play the music again thanks?
I see no inherent danger in moving a speaker while it's playing, but that is a question better suited for your speaker manufacturer.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC thanks for the reply 😀👍
Then, do I have to buy a big house?
2:05 placing the speakers so the interference is mostly below the audible range... 20 Herz has a wavelength 0f 17.5m, a quarter of that is 4.3m (14 feet). Haven't ever seen that distance behind speakers ever.
My upcoming room is 6.6m long and 4.4m wide (2.3m tall... not great, I know). Having the listening position on the 38% spot is possible, but then the near-field monitors are either at the wall (2.6m apart and also from my head) or in the near-field (1.6m) but pretty much 1 meter away from the side walls, front walls and floor. 🤦🏻♂
What to do? Just slam those near-fields right against the wall, move the listening position a bit close and just absorb the crap out of everything?
You make compromises.
then here I am. completely putting the speaker in the bottom corner to get as much bass as possibile
😂😂😂😂😂😂
What if you set your front and surround speakers to small and have 2 subs? Then does it matter how close the front and surround speakers are to the wall?
Yes it still matters. Typically a subwoofer is crossed over around 80Hz or so, but SBIR bass issues can occur up to 200Hz or beyond (throughout the top half of the bass range), so the placement of the satellites is still important.
@@GIKAcousticsLLC my room is 12 x 11..Thats it. I'm confused now. My TV is on the 12 foot side. I have 2 klipsitch rp150m speakers and klipsitch center and 4 klipsitch bookshelf speakers. And im getting the klipsitch 12 inch sub. I am also going to use my 12 inch thx sub in rear corner and klipsitch sub in front corner. I have a bunch of sound absorbing panels and planning to buy some diffuser panels as well. Have no idea where to put everything. Any help would be appreciated! And was planning to add 2 up firing Dolby atmos speakers at a later date.
just use room perfect by (lyngdorf amps only) or Dirac Live softwhare.
While those are helpful tools, room correction is not able to reduce decay times or effectively treat SBIR when there is no dampening of lower frequencies.
@@GIKAcousticsLLCI do not agree. It is clear that you have no knowledge of the Room Perfect developed by Peter Lyngdorf. Another point is that the midrange and treble are direction oriented sound waves. Some a bit more than others depending on the voicing of the elements from the developer. So you will not get first reflection behind the speaker above ≈600 Hertz.
Bass, on the other hand, is omni directional and hits the back wall. Romperfect clears this up. Try listening to Steinway Lyngdorf model D, B, S, or O. which has been calibrated with Room Perfect....This is som of the worlds best sounding systems, if not THE best. But you can use Room Perfect with any speaker, and it vill higly improve the sound signature.
What I agree with you on however, is that the best result is to place the speaker in the wall. Then you completely eliminate the rear wall reflection, and If you then run Room Perfect on you build in speakers, in addition to a well acoustically treated room, you will get an absolute perfect acoustic and sonically result.
How do we know what distance is 1/4th or 1/2 the wavelength so as to not cause phase cancellation?
2:46 I thought he was going to say "speaker boundary interference response can be a very messy subject so fu** everything and use headphones" xD
Hahaha good one,but headphones is good for bass check of the mix/mastering,but not so good for stereo image. Knowing your room and your system works best 👍🎶
My house is 120 years old, has tiny rooms, and is entirely built out of wood. Pretty much impossible to properly tame any kind of bass.
Does this also happen with non-ported sealed speakers as well?
Yes, this effect occurs in any type of enclosure
@@badrini so interesting. Thanks
Giuseppe Ongano unless you have one of those fancy directivity boxes with a bunch of drivers canceling out rear and side waves lol
Yes of course.
If I put the speakers in the corners and the bed was in the middle, what would happen to the sound?
Don't put the speakers in the corners, that's one of the worst places to put them!
You will greatly lower the performance of the speakers by doing that.
So, Use headphones is what you say?
Not entirely - we've actually written an entire article on the subject. The gist: while headphones are useful for mixing, you're not going to make the best mixing decisions.
Give it a read:
www.gikacoustics.com/mixing-listening-with-headphones-vs-acoustically-treated-space/
@@GIKAcousticsLLC Given the fact that I'm using a OneOdio budget headphones with parametric EQ to flatten their response should tell you I don't do mixes (well not professionally anyway) and all of these audio systems are WAAAAY out of my league, I do wanna build some DMLs though.
Thank you for the kind response I'll check out the article it looks interesting.
I wanna be proved wrong about my conception that: your ears + direct HRTF based input = best possible audio from an artificial system.
Note to viewers, infer and imply are not the same thing. Person A implies something, person B hears this and infers from it.
Hi, wouldn’t placing speakers as close as possible to the front wall give you a 6db boost in the bass? That’s something I wouldn’t want.
The nice thing about that is you can use sonarworks to simply attenuate by 6 db, thus correcting the problem. IF it’s a valley/null, and it makes it go -6, sonarworks cannot help in that situation because the more you increase, the more it affects the null. In other words, a peak can be corrected and is much better than the opposite to happen
This can easily be compensated for by subtracting -6dB. Look at the back of your studio monitors and find those dip-switches. Easy peasy!
I keep my tiny smart speaker in a corner. Why? Because the bass is 10x better that way. If I move it to the edge of my table, where it looks good and all, the bass sounds super flat. Corner = Win.
My house is in the middle of a quiet 100 acre farm. Would taking my computer and speakers outside on a calm day mitigate these issues and be a great place to EQ and mix my tracks free of frequency "distortions" of constructive and deconstructive interference, etc.?
That's an interesting idea. It would enable you to try difference distances from the speaker to see which distance your speakers sound ideal from. From a practical perspective, I would not want to expose my expensive equipment to potential rain, dust, and insects, though. You'd still get reflections off the ground. If you ever try this, you should definitely post photos online somewhere like Reddit and share your experience.
It makes sense though,dont forget to give us feed back,it would be helpful.
Feet.... Let's go to converter to understand the distances.
What did he just say ?
Pmc two two and their faulty amps
Did I see that right.
Placing treatment just behind a speaker in a small room is not wise?
I have the same question
Correct. Pulling the speaker out far enough to place acoustic treatment behind it often causes the interference to dip below the effective range of the panel. If we can place the speakers far enough out that the interference is mostly below the audible range, then we can treat behind the speakers with Soffits or range limited monsters to clean up the rest.
For smaller rooms it’s better, to place the speaker as close to the front wall as possible, without actually touching. This will minimize any SB interference and you can then focus treatment around the speaker.
If you look at what frequencies are being emitted from the back of the speaker (sub 200hz), and how deep that treatment would need to be to attenuate those low frequencies (1/4 wavelength), you'll see that you'd need exceptionally deep porous treatment to even begin to touch those frequencies. So in small rooms, where that's not possible, the only solution to push the SBIR frequency high enough to realistically treat, is to place them as close to the wall as possible.
So no definitive answer. This video just explains why it is an important subject. Do what works for you...
Biggest problem with rooms is parallel walls snd 90 ° angles
this has just confused me more. Everything else says to place them at least 6-8 inches from the wall
I hear you. Most normal people, i.e. not rich, have a small room and should place the speakers as close to the wall as possible. Making sure to leave a gap the same number of inches from the wall as any rear firing port. At the same time, try to keep all sides of the speaker different distances from the ceiling floor and walls. Also, you want to keep the distance from the speakers to the listening position greater than the distance between the front speakers.
You forgot a very important thing. Speaker stands. If you have them on cheap glass speaker stands, then they will sound overly-bright. Wood stands are a better option.
what!? this is absurd
Just tell me how am I going to convince my wife !
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