Different show, same nonsense in the fandom... I think I may have hit a breaking point
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- čas přidán 4. 10. 2023
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"If you don't think this show is perfect, you hate it!"
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Oh my god, it's Andor all over again!
That's a helpful way of looking at it. These are not fans, in the classical sense of the term, they are political activists wearing SW cosplay.
Only the sith deal in absolutes, but Yoda says "do or do not, there's no try." 😂
@@kareemsmith8957 That's not dealing in absolutes. You're one of those people thinking stating an absolute is the same as dealing in absolutes, huh?
@@mar_speedman wtf?! Make that make sense dude 😂
There's no try, do or do not. That's totally an absolute.
Thor I agree 100%. This practice of calling everyone a "hater" who does not like a show/movie or some aspects of it is weak and it is immature. It is right up there with calling fans toxic, usually for the same reasons.
well some people are fr nitpicking and hating on things
this is a two way street, haters will hate for no reason other then their bais.
I agree with that, but there’s a flip side. I’ve also seen YTers and people in the comments be called shills for simply stating they liked something.
The thing is we get people not liking the show... that's fair enough. But how do people get to episode 8 of a television program that they don't like and still go online to comment about how much they don't like it?
That's literally being a hater. Purposely watching a show or a review about a show you don't like to then tell people online how much you don't like it. There are thousands of other things to watch so these people must be doing it on purpose. They just enjoy adding negativity to other people's enjoyment
Like I don't like NASCAR or modern Simpsons particularly so I'd never go and watch a CZcams video about those things and rip on them for no reason
@@toddblankenship7164 There are certainly some that are anti Star Wars, but Thor's video is speaking to the one sided, blanket labeling. There is a segment of the fandom that arbitrarily labels everyone as a hater and toxic for any criticism towards a show/film. This is nothing new and I have observed it many times. A content creator could list 99 out of 100 reasons why they like any given film or show. However this same segment of the fandom will focus on the one thing that is not liked and basically lose their minds over that, almost as if it is some kind of personal attack. It is all of nothing with them.
Thor. Whether I agree with you or not on each individual episode of this show... you're good people! Thanks for this heartfelt video!
I was coming to post something similar to this. Great post 🙂
Yeah. Always respect people's criticism.
Anyone who thinks Thor is an _Ahsoka_ hater must have napped during the first 5 episodes of the show. He was pretty happy with it and was actually defending it from the really whiny people.
Like I said in the video, I was getting called a 'shill' again after episode five, lol.
@@thorskywalkerthat’s sad mate don’t listen to people like that man you’re one of the most levelheaded Star Wars fans I’ve ever seen…
Damned if you do, damned if you dont.@@thorskywalker
@@thorskywalker Schrodinger's Thor: somehow both a hater and a shill at the same time, lol. Keep up the good work; it's the balance and thoughtfulness that keeps me coming back.
@@jimdaniels7531 a master of both side of the force, neither chill nor a hater lol
While extremely hating Ahsoka is not the right way, fair criticism is part of why I WANT to see these Star Wars shows be clear cut and have good quality
Even when you give a fair criticism, they still call you a hater regardless. Those are the type of fans I have no patience with.
@@dereklopez9060ya just like Thor if I ever praised one of the middle episodes of Ahsoka some people were straight up douches towards not just me but others not everyone of course but some. I thought the finale was fine personally but yeah, it had some serious issues…
@@Milothemighty10Yeah, I pretty much agree. The finale was ok, but it did have alot of problems that I simply can't ignore.
Sometimes I can look past flaws in most movies and shows, but when there comes a time when a movie or a show turned out to be so bad, then I can't defend it.
@@dereklopez9060when it comes to stuff we got from Star Wars this year jedi survivor is my favorite thing followed closely by bad batch season 2 then ahsoka then finally mando season 3…
@@Milothemighty10 For me, I'd say Jedi Survivor. Pretty sad when a mere video game tells a much better story than most of these live action shows. Even The Bad Batch Season 2 was quite decent.
The us and them mentality is the biggest issue in fandom these days. I have really come to appreciate your fair and nuanced takes on these shows. Thanks, Thor!
Us Vs. Them is the biggest issue in LIFE these days. Fixed it.
people hate shows js simply bc its made during disneys era
@@w.selfless6022 While there are people who are like that, Disney hasn't given them, or those of us more reasonable, anything to contradict that mentality. Most of what we've got so far has been disappointing at best
Fandoms are essentially tribes, that's why.
Biggest issue in the world….
I believe Abe Lincoln said it best, “You can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you’ll never please everyone all the time”
A factual statement often used to deflect justified criticism instead of addressing it directly. Much like "haters gonna hate."
Abraham Lincoln said something similar, but not about "pleasing".
He said this about "fooling" people.
@@FreeOpenTruth that’s right! I do recall that being the quote now…
The phrasing I said does work, though
Thanks, Thor, that needed to be said. I watch a lot of Star Wars channels, been a fan for 30+ years, and imo you are one of the few level-headed Star Wars youtubers. No shill, no hater, I don‘t agree on everything, but well, that‘s life. Continue your good work!
I agree!
I literally stopped watching most of the other channels because they can't keep it level. Even Echo Base has started getting toxic over the past year or so. Eck and Thor are probably the only two SW-related channels I still watch regularly. Of the two, Eckhart has the best analyses and tech breakdowns, while Thor gives the best discussions and has Naboo to play Sith Lord's advocate for far more entertaining debates than one-pony shows can provide.
P.S. i hope Naboo is feeling better. Prayers for her :D
Thank you for that, she has been feeling a bit better today.
Dave Filoni can run a show, but he needs talented writers to add tension, refine the dialogue, and clean up some of the story’s logical problems. We also need real stakes and consequences.
Someone else really needs to overhaul how Disney _Star Wars_ sets the stage for and executes action sequences, too.
Meaning he can't, he can be a side guy of someone talented to help with the lore.
Agreed I think Dave needs to take a back seat role of “lore master” lol
A worldbuilding/guidelines genius who needs someone else to guide him through the smaller details? Reminds me of the man he learned from.
And he shouldn’t direct. Acting and especially camera work can be hugely improved on.
The biggest reason the finale was dissapointing was because its not a conclusion, the whole season is just a prologue to the movies.
You know what that finale reminded me of? The Last Jedi. No joke. What happened in the Last Jedi? Nothing. Just a wild goose chase that accomplished nothing.
What happened in Ahsoka? Also nothing. What was the point of the show? To stop Thrawn. Did they stop Thrawn? No. Did they at least recover Ezra and return with him? no. Even worse, they traded one Jedi for two. They're not just back to square one, they fell back to square zero! So if anything, it's even worse than the Last Jedi! At least the Last Jedi didn't progress backward!
(Of course, the Last Jedi is a lot worse than Ahsoka in other elements, but I'm baffled by the pointlessness of the plot)
@@mar_speedmanwait for it.. with baylon and Ashoka to fight for what ever it is on peridian should be amazing 😊
@@timschultz1928 Dude. This was the last episode. I doubt there's going to be a second season with the way the first one performed
That's the problem with this show, it feels like it's just set up for later seasons but it isn't good enough to get any
Also, bad news, but Baylan's actor passed away recently :(
@@mar_speedman you are too harsh, I feel Thrawn's return and Ahsoka finding a sense of purpose again are pretty major developments story wise. Also this isn't some offshoot studio shooting their shot and banking season 1 hits it out of the park, it's Lucasfilm owned by Disney of course there will be a season 2. And though Ray's passing is a tragedy, we have to hope that whoever they recast for the role does it justice.
Not just that. Bad screenplays, bad writing, bad directors, very bad dialogues. I just can't...
Just accepting anything if it "feels right" is a receipt to kill a franchise. Because yes a segment of people will continue to enjoy it, but more and more people will start tuning out. Most people will see the dumb, the plot armor, how there are no stakes and stop following along. The shows will fall further and further back in their watch queue. Until finally there aren't enough people watching, literally buying in, for Star Wars to continue to be viable.
It's just not compelling TV, particularly for casual fans or newcomers that have no pre-existing connection to these characters. You can only coast along on nostalgia and the goodwill of the fans for so long.
And this is all leading into the "Mandoverse" series of interconnected stories leading up to a movie conclusion. But will anyone still be around to watch it if they have to slog through underwhelming entries to get there?
I think the viewership numbers for these shows prove your point. The direction they are going isn’t going to move Star Wars forward and reach new audiences. It’s just killing the IP
See it's comments like yours why I called people who dislike ahoska haters. Because you're so rude to those of us who enjoyed it just because we have a different opinion than you. We can like it and that doesn't mean we like bad writing or don't dislike bad plotline and writing when we see it. The show had plenty of tension and stakes if you know where to look. It was just written as a springboard for the movie or season 2 instead of as a standalone thing. Nothing wrong with that. And again, you and people like you need to stop being rude to those of us who enjoyed it. Believe me I hate characters with plot armor but this wasn't that. I mean they lost to the bad guys every time (lost the map 2 times and thrawn one. Not to mention ahsoka would have died had anakin not saved her).
@@authorjoannawhite Personally I don't think I was being rude, just pointing out that most people will not wait around for something to be good eventually. Even a dedicated fan base will lose interest if everything is just a set up for something else that has the possibility of being an amazing piece of content somewhere down the road. If you like it that's fine, more power to you.
Personally I don't hate Ashoka, I find it "meh" with lots of unintentional humor. Which is to reiterate my point much worse for a franchises. Hatred drives views and discussions, apathy just produces a shrug and a search for something else to invest one's time into.
As for plot armor? Our three heroes were engaged by a capital ship's weapons on open ground...not a scratch.
@@authorjoannawhiteThis is kind of how I feel. I’m a Star Wars fan, and I am enjoying all of the movies and shows. Could some things be better or done differently? Sure. But too often there are just so many complaints that don’t even make sense to me. Others are just nitpicking about things, yet they give the OT a pass on similar things. Then we have a show like Andor, which many people have praised as having the sort of writing, and story and character development they have been wanting in Star Wars. Yet there are people that criticize that show as being slow, boring, not Star Wars, and some even said it had poor writing. You can’t please all the people all the time. It just becomes tiresome to hear so much negativity when I would just like to go onto a Star Wars page to enjoy my favorite franchise with other fans. You don’t have to like everything, but when it seems like people have hated everything after the OT, it makes me wonder why they are still watching, let alone devoting so much time to going online to complain about it. So, my favorite form of engagement now is reaction channels, especially the ones that enjoy it and are pretty knowledgeable about Star Wars.
Thor, you have to be one of the most charitable CZcamsrs who is critical of Disney Star Wars. I am almost entirely tuned out of Star Wars now thanks to the direction it has been going, and I still watch your videos because your takes on the franchise are interesting and fair.
It is crazy that people would label you a “hater” just because you want something you deeply care about to have standards!
Similar. Thor is the only SW creator I still tune into all the time.
It’s always annoying when people immediately get called haters for criticizing something. Yeah, some take it too far, but most of us do it out of love and wanting to see things get better. Sadly, this problem isn’t exclusive to Star Wars.
Not to be that guy but I saw this shit coming 15 or so years ago when the term "hater" crossed over from hip hop culture. People in high school used it as a catch-all deflection/defense for any legitimate criticism or punishment
Oh my teacher gave me an F on the social studies test? She's a hater
Coach cut me from the team for missing too many practices? Hater
Unfortunately it's evolved exactly as I predicted in my teens
The only thing I kow is that If Dave Filoni is really the last hope of Star Wars, then I see you in the funeral. He is not a good director, and neither a good writer, his dialogue is worst than Lucas in Attack of the Clones. The last hope of Star Wars remains in the return of the EU as a parallel line of Star Wars books, games and comics. That way they can continue to trash absurd amounts of money in bad products like High Republic while people with common sense can enjoy some good writing. They would make easy money again, and we could finally be happy.
Nope, there's a differences here. Not every criticism is sound, so with those one has to ask why are people spreading contrived criticisms.
Hating the show is a reasonable explanation. It's not just taking it too far, the stuff I've seen said about this show just make me sad with how much negativity there is in the fandom.
I've seen many people complain about things earlier in the season, that were then explained/alleviated in later episodes. There is a lot non-existent problems a lot of people are having with not just this show, but every piece of SW media post-Lucas.
This person > @bigbangrafa8435 is proving my point, too many people have so much strange negativity for this show, other shows, and its creators. So much generalizing, big claims with no examples of elaborations, just hate......
@@bigbangrafa8435 What is wrong with his directing and writing? The Clone Wars is beloved by the fandom, as is many of the characters he created. That show even won Filoni awards. Doesn't exactly yell bad writing. I saw nothing too narratively contrived in Ahsoka, especially compared to Obi-Wan show and Book of Boba. It's no Andor but it doesn't have to be.
SO, what is wrong with Filoni? Somehow I can't see what you're seeing.
This is what I like about Thor. He has his opinions and recognizes people have their own as well. He calls it as he sees it and doesn't play any sort of BS with us. I honestly think Thor is one of the most unbiased people when it comes to star wars content, at least from what I've seen.
It's sad
I may kid myself but I feel I hear Thor's voice sort of... saddened by the end of Ahsoka
His voice up toward the finale was full of hope, sort of a beam of positivity, and now it's as if he's been knocked down by that end of the series
We’ll see for Loki.
A common occurrence apparently. Among my friend circle, there was a lot of hope and initially an appreciation for this series, before it soured in the later episodes. I wasn't to crazy about the early episodes either to be honest, but I was holding out hope it would all come together at the end.
@jimdaniels7531 tbh I knew it would be ass since episode 3 and absolutely nothing happened. One episode is a microcosm for a season. If they will waste your time for 30 minutes they will also waste it for 8 hours approximately
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Andor kind of blew that idea out of the water, which is why I think so many people like to compare the two shows. Andor was basically four movies turned into a 12-episode series. A LOT of nothing happened throughout the first three-parter, and a lot of nothing happened while Andor was in prison. Yet the show had great pacing overall because it HAD 12 episodes of runtime. Had Ahsoka been 12 episodes, I think a huge percentage of the complaints regarding pacing and lack of plot coverage would've disappeared. In fact, the first three episodes FELT like Filoni was trying to copy the Andor model, but somewhere along the line, he was shorted four episodes (likely after the first three were already past draft stage) and had to just start chopping huge chunks out of the later episodes to make it fit the insanely tight runtime requirements Disney chose.
@ValosiTiamata with due respect I think there were differences that could be noticed, payoff being the biggest difference. Recall how I said episode 3 of Ahsoka was my tip off? Because there was 0 payoff. The whole show had 0 payoff. An essay in blue balls truthfully. Andor paid off A LOT in the 3rd episode. Bad Batch has decent payoffs despite having filler episodes. Yes, both of those shows have more episodes than Ahsoka but you can do what Mando s1 did really well with episodic TV and have a payoff at the end of each episode
Take the "worst" episode of Mando s1 The Gunslinger. I love it myself but it got heavily ripped for being filler. However the episode ends with a payoff. However small and insignificant, it has a payoff
Calling Thor a hater is probably the most ridiculous take I’ve heard in a long time. Thor has been beyond charitable with this series, addressing the good, the bad, and the in between. It just seems beyond bad faith to take a portion of what he’s said and distort that into “oh you’re just a hater”. Maybe instead of calling someone a hater, you can explain what you liked and disliked, I can explain what I liked and disliked, and we can have a mature discussion (like adults) to explain and provide contextual evidence as to why we feel the way we do. Just a real shame that any criticism, even when paired with praise, is not considered “hate”.
Amen to that...
Giving contrived and sematic critiques of a show kind of does make one a hater. There's so much negativity around this show, for no good reason.
@@mycelia_ow there are plenty of good reasons, and plenty of valid criticisms. I would go into them, but you’ve kinda exposed you’re not interested in any level of good faith conversation, and I’d just be wasting both our time. Cheers
@@Mr_Mcgee_ I don't disagree, I've said so in other comment threads on this video, that there are plenty of legitimate criticisms. Problem is I seldom see them, especially from this uploader and his comment section.
the internet just isn’t the place for it, at least usually. it’s hard to really have that kind of discussion with someone you don’t know and aren’t face to face with. plus you get people who think they can disprove/dismiss anything you say bc it’s “offensive” or “negative” to their own personal views.
Ezra's reaction to how Sabine got to Peridea was one of the things I was looking forward to the most after it was set up at the end of episode 6. So yes, I too was disappointed when it never happened. The tension of that scene had it been included would have made the final attempt to stop Thrawn more impactful, and it would have made Ezra's (and Ahsoka's) understanding of Sabine's motivations more impactful as well.
Ezra was very disappointing in this show. Through all the smirking, disinterest in how much jeopardy his friend has put the galaxy in, bad decisions...should he have not been shot by Hera on sight when he boarded the starship? I like the actor playing Ezra. I do. But he was written with all the lunkheaded naivete of - I'm Gonna Say It - Jar Jar Binks.
@@dw.dunphyindeed, Welcome to Disney's writing.
I think they're saving that for a twist when Ezra finds out in season 2 or the movie and when thrawn does something in the main galaxy and sabines choice would have consequences so it's best to come out then
@@authorjoannawhite It makes sense. Or Hera will let him know what happened, and that would cause conflict upon Sabine's return, but it all seems so flighty for Ezra to just overlook. "I've been trapped here for a decade and you just walked in. You actually need to tell me how you did that." Ah, well. I suspect answers will not arrive as planned. This show did not do great in the ratings. Okay, but not great. It's a plotline that will get resolved eventually, but I don't think it will be a main priority now either.
The commenter got it all wrong. Thor is not a hater. He has been very generous towards the show which I didn't understand to be honest. For me, not only the finale, but almost all episodes had the flaws that finale had for Thor. But I always hit like on each and every video on this channel even before watching it because these two people, Thor and Naboo, are totally normal people enjoying what they talk about and talking about what they enjoy.
There was an article in Vice more than a year ago titled "Television Is in a Showrunning Crisis." It was about how the streaming service production model was creating a situation where young episodic tv writers were not getting the adequate experience to become older, more experienced senior producers and showrunners. According to the article, the way this maturation occurs is by literally being on the set to watch your script get made.
What we are seeing are Dave Filoni's growing pains in live action. He has produced hundreds of episodes of animation, but he is still a relative novice at writing and directing live action. That's essentially what Favreau has been there to do: put Dave Filoni on the fast track. He's a Jedi that had to become a Padawan again. It's not an excuse, but it's a reason.
Absolutely, working your way up is hard in the industry now. I don't think that's an excuse for Filoni though because he worked with Jon in the Mando series, and could have learnt a lot. I guess he believed his own hype too much to do it though.
I'm sick of compromising. I say either give us an Andor level show or give us nothing at all. I want threatening villains, compelling dialogue, and consistent logic, something Disney is very bad at giving us.
Preach!
Andor isn't Star Wars.
People want Star Wars, then get bitter when it isn't Andor.
Very well said, in my mind that 200 million dollars can be put towards paying VFX artists properly or slowly creating better art. But Lucasfilm needs some serious help to make it happen.
If it's called 'Star Wars' it's Star Wars. Very simple. Lightsabers do not equal Star Wars. The themes make Star Wars. Andor captured that in a more slow burn manner.@@greco-romano9852
@@greco-romano9852Andor is Star Wars. However, like Thor said in a recent video, not every Star Wars show needs to be like Andor. It should be that level of quality, of commitment. Even if you don’t like Andor, you can’t say it’s poorly made. The care put into that show was second to none other than the original trilogy for me. And, it made me appreciate those films more. If that’s not Star Wars then idk what is.
Garbage takes left and right. Im right behind you Thor. Just because we arent giving Filoni a reach around, that makes you a hater 😂 i swear disney instigates this shit on purpose.. or theyre just incompetent and lazy
lol, that was certainly an interesting analogy, but I agree with the idea behind it. (no pun intended)
@@thorskywalker 😂😂😂👍
Disney is not wholly incompetent, but they are driven entirely by corporatism. Risk taking is literally anathema to them, they avoid any and all perceived risk in order to maximize share value. Art is all about taking risks and this is why everything Disney produces is so bland and soulless. Andor has been the single exception to that rule across both Marvel and Star Wars.
@@thorskywalkerThor I can point out exactly why that comment happened. In some people's CZcams feed your channel will appear in the mix of at least 10 other channels that hate on Disney 24/7. That has an affect on people and does make them lash out.
which is funny because Andor was the least risky project they've done. It had the entire team behind the Bourne films making it (thats why the action scenes/editing is so bad). I personally enjoyed Andor, but it doesn't fulfill the exciting, action adventure that people expect from Star Wars. @@PRC533
Disney Star Wars:what have you become?
Star Wars Fandom:I am what you made me.
I can already tell the first comment that was sent to you Thor is completely ignorant of why folks dislike Ahsoka. Even excusing the horrendous writing, dialogue and story, it isn't even consistent with itself. As someone who liked Rebels(minus the fourth season), NONE of the Rebels characters in this series match up with their animated counterparts. And worse, Sabine being shown to be force sensitive, Why on earth didn't Kanan or Ezra figure that out when they were there? Sure, Kanan, an experienced Jedi would have detected that? It's this and many problems, like not accounting for Han, Luke, and Leia; as to why the series is bad. We aren't "prequel haters" (I swear if I had a dollar every time someone used to characterize us like that, I'd be stinking rich) but what we want is quality. In other words, we have standards.
It's one thing to like this series in spite of the many problems, but to say this is "Peak" Star Wars is an insult to the brand. This is NOT peak Star Wars. It's sludge. You want peak Star Wars? Go Watch Empire Strikes Back, or read Heir to the Empire. Stuff that actually has quality writing and characters attached to it, and doesn't use the Star Wars label to hide its imperfections.
This isn’t even garbage.
We just need more things like Andor. If we had that, this soulless franchise would actually be worth getting invested in again.
Not possible as everyone has a different mindset on what their vision is for Star Wars.
Yup Andor and Rogue one are brilliant
No. I want the writing of andor on filoni or classic star wars like projects. Thats the ideal formula
@@achaudhari101 I agree, I think Star Wars fans need to be more like Marvel, DC, and Star Trek fans and stay out of the kitchen and act like you own Star Wars just sit back and watch it and if you don’t like it let the cook know but don’t act like you are the owner of the restaurant and make changes to the menu (head canon, Lucas canon, my canon, or any canon) they should only be one menu one canon not a bunch of smaller ones that people made cause it’s what they prefer so everyone else should do it that way to. Stick with that menu item you like and don’t force others to it. We need to be more like Marvel and DC fans if you don’t like it don’t go to it, don’t get it, and let them know that they need to do better.
Cause of that Star Trek has recovered, scarred but recovered and DC is on the road to recovery only time will tell when creature commandos, Superman, and Batman release
Yes sir. I’m amazed they’ve actually made something as good as andor
Love this version of Thor. I feel like my views have grown along side of Thor’s. People want more out of their entertainment because the entertainment complex used to care more. But now it seems they pump content out regardless of quality.
Streaming really made that a fact in these past few years
it was really easy when there wasn’t anything else to do besides watch netflix at home. everyone thought that streaming was so much better than cable, but look at it now. it’s just a way for corporate monopolies to make even more money by creating exclusive content on their expensive “plus” platforms, and now there’s very little competition to promote growth in the industry. obviously this doesn’t apply to everything, but it’s an apparent trend, at least imo.
Hey Thor - in response to your video.
I think the main issue with the season, was that (imo) the plot was written backwards.
They needed Thrawn to return for the future era they are building. To reverse Qui Gons quote - they were mindful of the future at the expense of the present. They worked backwards to ensure it occurred, focusing on that to the detriment of their actual product.
The writers showed to us in 7&8 that they cannot write, or will not prioritise meaningful character dialogue, when it comes at the expense of visuals.
Personally though, what was most disastorous to me, was that from halfway through episode 6, they clearly outlined that the new galaxy wasnt going to be given much depth / explored beyond Peridia.
Its just a ruined world, which has some inhabitants which somehow exist. The noti somehow have some minor technology, despite it being a ruined world. The noti shouldnt be able to survive there...and the raiders are just one dimensional armor wearing bad guys.
I was really happy with the introduction of the concept of Ezra being in a new galaxy - it opened a plethora of options. I was hoping for some teasers about "Ezra and Thrawn having to work together for a while to survive", "theres an intergalactic grysk threat", "thrawn marooned Ezra on the planet - because he felt he couldnt kill him after they worked together".
But instead the two of them seem to have just stayed on the planet for a decade, doing nothing.
So much for the Grysk being the new Vong. In all likelyhood Thrawn will be a one dimensional bad guy, who gets the imperial remnant to coalesce and hes winning but then loses to some contrivance.
It could have been so much more. Ezra Sabine and Ahsoka should have been left in Peridia together, having to spend a season getting back home (building their characters and their relationships), exploring and teasing aspects of the new galaxy.
Ahsoka and Sabines search for Ezra was their chance to dodge the mess the ST made, to have the jedi exist in some tangential way to Lukes acadamy.
Maybe all this will happen in some way in future content, but I dont know that I trust them to do it justice.
I am so close to just giving up on Star Wars.
Someone's calling YOU an Ahsoka hater?! I was surprised how easy on it you were going, lol. I was extremely disappointed in how shockingly sub-par the writing was. And no, not "all Star Wars suffers from this" / "jUsT tUrN yOuR bRAiN oFf."
Man there’s nothing more annoying than people thinking if you like/ don’t like a show you must have this opinion on another… it’s been andor vs ahsoka recently and it’s been bugging me. EDIT: also second what Thor is saying.. if I’m criticising a show I’m not a hater. Maybe the show is just ass
I've yet to watch Ashoka but I don't think I'll bother watching as most respectable reviewers on CZcams think it's meh
@@leonardodavinci7425 it is meh. The writing is really poor, character motivations and decisions are non existent and make 0 sense. The fight scenes aren’t good. Thrawn is a let down. The plot is meh. Ahsoka could basically not be in it and wouldn’t be missed. They botched Sabines character. They kinda retcon rebels with Ezra’s arc. They introduce shin and Baylan and they’re pretty cool but underused in the end. Overall it’s like there 1 cool moment but the rest is like kenobi/BOBF level. In a few months it’ll be forgotten
Not meh at all. It won’t be forgotten when the second season is eventually a thing.
@leonardodavinci7425 Define “Respectable”. If it’s those grifters in the Fandom Menace than no, they’re not anywhere close to that.
@@achaudhari101 why does it need the second season to actually make it interesting?
Andor was exactly what I wanted to see for the verse, "Stories that can exist within the setting and context of the verse". I feel like a majority of viewers fall into the 'magical' trap. I support your analysis of the shortcomings of Ahsoka and I also believe, the show is trying to setup stories for the future. Ahsoka and this new galaxy are obvious jabs in the stomach, because, the Disney sequels happened; the Filoniverse is going to have a very hard time rectifying this, but only time will tell.
I don’t think starwars can produce enough money at this point to justify Dave’s films being made. Especially with the viewership of this show.
I am of the opinion that the movies are where the grand spectacles should be. Shows are the perfect place to ground the franchise and flesh out the universe, which is exactly what Andor did. It's not some epic space romp with the fate of the galaxy hanging in the balance. It's the story of the regular people who the Rebellion is supposed to be about saving. Giving life to those people turns them into more than just a concept and I think it makes the potential movies much more engaging. This is why I didn't feel anything when the First Order obliterated the Hosnian system, the groundwork for that connection was never established. We didn't know anything about Alderann when it was destroyed either, but Leia was there to provide the emotional context..
@@Theosake It could have had more aliens and droids with its budget. It was a great show, and this is the only valid knock on it that I have seen. That said Disney seems to dislike aliens so it likely won’t be pushed.
@@Theosake at least it was taken seriously. And the way they shot it, when things got colorful they meant much more, and had much more impact. For example the sky during the heist, and the prison. Both incredibly looking in comparison to the dark depressing tones under the rule of the empire. That’s intentional, and more successful to me than a random red forest planet.
@@Theosakewell I don’t think it’s the lack of imagination, these are some of the best people in the industry making Andor. The sets were very intentional. They might not be your taste but in a galaxy as big as starwars there is room for just about any planet you want. They happened to want planets that conveyed the grip of the empire in tone rather than something more colorful. Those sets are like I said in direct contrast to the very colorful and impressive moments for the big parts of the show. Making them feel more important and adding to the spectacle. The show wasn’t completely devoid of color, they just used it when it supported big story moments.
Great video, Thor. I'm a social worker & licensed therapist. This is relevant because a lot of the long-term goals of the social work profession would be considered "woke" by many on the Internet, both in the supportive & denigrating sense. Also, I do a lot of counseling with couples that have a really tough time talking about sensitive topics in ways that don't turn into screaming matches. So as a "woke" person who teaches assertive communication that includes expressing opinions & emotions in a healthy way, I need the people in the comments saying this stuff about you to trust me when i say that the way you explained your stance on the show was not mean, hateful, or "dumping" on Disney Star Wars/Filoni. Your comments had nuance, did not go into unnecessary extremes, & did explain why you have the opinion you do. You also called out the commenter's opinion/statement as childish, rather than calling THEM childish as a person. Not many CZcamsrs go out of their way to explain their criticism of Star Wars quite the way you do, & I'm grateful for it. I also felt disappointed , even a bit sad at the lack of quality/forethought on these final episodes. I'm hopeful & have faith that Filoni can learn from this & grow into a better writer of live-action & movies, but I still feel a little upset about what could have been with this show.
Hey Thor, Do you think the Ahsoka show did Sabine extremely dirty? Because in Rebels, she may have been a hothead and made stupid choices, but she get's chastised for it and learns from her mistakes. Yet for some reason, they made her so bitchy and unlikable. And when she made a really really dumb choice like letting Thrawn return, she doesn't get chastised and instead gets a pat on the back. It's like she didn't learn her lesson from when she helped the Empire built weapons they used to kill her people.
What are your thoughts?
She was like that in Rebels.
Sabine is more of a villain in this show than Baylan and Shin. She is now personally responsible for everything that happens because of Thrawn, and she was never held to account for that. Hell, she was never even confronted with it. This is the kind of storytelling that people intuitively expect. Hero makes a mistake, suffers consequences, grows as a result and comes back stronger for it. It's such a basic arc that we all know it without realizing.
they wrote themselves into a corner. either she held strong and they kill her (big no no, good guys can’t die) or she gave in to reach ezra (and keep the plot moving), bc there wasn’t ANY other way to get there (until there was) lol.
We have grown with Star Wars but like us, Star Wars must grow as well.
Growth means failures, misteps, achievements, and successes.
After a decade of failure, I'm ready for some success. Andor was a glimmer of light, but it can't save things alone.
@@PRC533 Okay I know damn well Rogue One is at least an 8/10!
@@tainoman7905 Yes Rogue 1 was good, and even Solo did not deserve the negative reputation it got. Unfortunately, TLJ/RoS undid all of that goodwill and it's been mostly downhill from there with the rare exception of early Mando (which was decent but not incredible) and Andor.
@@PRC533 I apologize but I'll always defend Rogue One, it's the underdog
Still find it insane how people can say that you hate blindly when you simply think when something is good you say it’s good and when you think something is bad you say it’s bad. Thor you’re quite literally one of the only youtubers on the platform that is always authentic and genuine with your opinions unlike a lot of people in the fandom now. Keep up the good work Thor
Ever heard of a hot take? The problem is sometimes the "bad" about this show pointed out, is contrived or really minute, but is used to criticize it. It's not blind, it's intentional.
@@mycelia_owthis is a strange hill to die on man. open your mind up to the possibility that just bc someone doesn’t find the same enjoyment in something as you did is okay. i’m glad there are people who thought it was great, but you and others must respect that some people didn’t.
Its because they don't actually watch his content.
It worries me that people still don’t understand that “Why can’t you just like something” is one of the most dangerous statements a person can levy.
@@thisspaceforrent5737 (apologies for this long response in advance) Consider the societal implications of what that sentence means and how it can and is liberally applied across a spectrum. Picture the worst movie or any form of art you’ve seen and picture someone telling this to you, “why can’t you just like it?”Now Imagine that you accept this. That shit form of art has become acceptable and becomes the norm. More shit art of that quality is reproduced and no innovation comes from it. Imagine the same term is used concerning a way of life, such as an oppressive fascist regime. Why can’t you just like it (this is an extreme example but applicable in such places like North Korea)? You are being told to accept something you should not. You want and should expect better. If we chose to just like everything, we would have zero innovation. Film would still be silent and black and white with a script that is no more complicated than a train headed toward the camera.
@@thisspaceforrent5737 Yeah but that is not what is playing out in our culture is it? Just accept it has become the norm and is in fact very dangerous. Brushing it off as somebody looking for a dystopian outcome is akin to calling somebody a conspiracy theorist; it's a tactic that really doesn't have quite the punch it used to.
@@RepublicOfBridger that is the most insane equivalence I've ever heard.
How can you compare having a differing taste in media to living under a despotic government?
That's the most insane thing I've ever heard.
And for the record your standard of entertainment isn't universal, because such a thing doesn't exist. There is no objective way to view art because everyone has different tastes.
Your standards and preferences are just that, your own.
@@garrethb6261 i think the most insane thing is that for over 1000 years entertainment has been the main way for government to progress its own propaganda, and your sheer ignorance of basic history is the actual concern of this situation.
@@UpTheChels10 what does that have to with anything I said.
All I said is that people have different tastes.
I'm aware that media has been used for propaganda before, but that's isn't the thing I was trying to say.
I've been critical at times of your takes, but you are right on target with this. Thank you so much.
This show started off badly, got much better midway through, but fell off at the end all over again. Bad decision-making from characters throughout strained credibility. You can be a fun adventure, but you must be credible, even in the constraints of your fantasy settings. Otherwise, it is just children playing with action figures. "Oh, now I can fly!" "Now I can do cartwheels in space!" "I can avoid being shot by dozens of laser-wielding zombies!" Drama without consequences isn't drama.
The dirty truth is that most of the folks saying Ahsoka did not disappoint have an emotional investment in Dave Filoni succeeding Kathleen Kennedy, and will not admit this even though they know it to be true. I'm not saying Filoni will never be good enough to ascend to leading Lucasfilm. He might. I hope he can, but he is not ready right now and this show has proven it. My question is: do the fans really want new Star Wars movies that fracture as easily as Ahsoka did? If they don't get real and voice what did not work with honesty, that's what they will get. "Suddenly I got the Force!" "Suddenly I can outrace a star destroyer!" "Suddenly I can jump across miles!" "Suddenly I can shoot lasers from my eyes!"
Suddenly, I don't have to cross my arms every ten seconds.
I found it odd that the best characters Shin and Baylon were hardly in it.
To be honest the finale made no to little sense.
Planks of wood.
If I was the director, I would be shouting
Emote! Emote! Emote!
I get now why Filoni only did animation at first. Because the animators did the emoting for him. he just cannot direct an actor to emote naturally.
I wouldn't really say everyone was planks of wood, but Ahsoka's actress just can't emote for the life of her. She either looks too angry and furious or too emotionless. I don't think she was prepared for the more vibrant 'Ahsoka the white' that Filoni wrote
The closest I've heard to Thor being angry. And for good reason. But even in his frustration, he responded in a controlled manner. Very mature of him.
Bro, if anyone is trying to make the argument that Ahsoka was good and Andor was not, then they're either a blind fanboy, a shill, or they hit their head one too many times. Whether you like Ahsoka or not, objectively speaking the writing was terrible, and it was especially braindead writing in the last two episodes. The show actually had some momentum going into the last two episodes, and then they said "let's just pull a kenobi". The sad part is that it was almost as dumb and braindead as Kenobi by the end, so it shows they've learned nothing at Lucasfilm and Filoni turned to the darkside so he could make his own show/movie and bring his characters to live action...
How is someone saying Ahsoka is better than Andor a shill? They're BOTH DISNEY!
Wake up, both shows had their fair share of disappointing flaws. Andor had nothing to cement it in or as Star Wars, and Ahsoka managed only to do that, forgetting to be a good show in the process.
Maybe all the Tik-Tok induced epidemic of short attention span caused literal brain damage to a significant part of what's left of "Star Wars" fandom.
@@mar_speedman Andor actually added to the Star Wars mythos and looked at it from an angle that no one's truly explored before. It makes the Empire seem much more real and the stakes and sacrifices of what it really meant to be in the Rebellion take shape. It gives the original trilogy context. Luke and friends get to join up on the tail end for fun and games. But Andor takes you behind the curtain to show why people got desperate enough to start a Rebellion, how arrogant the Empire was and how much they overreached so as to let it gain footing and momentum under their noses. Not everyone cares about that stuff. But it's a great addition to Star Wars. While not fun and games like the Clone Wars, it helps flesh out the time period in between the movies in a way that brings worthwhile context and more than pure fluff.
Ahsoka was a bunch of fluff and mcguffins with a mix of some really cool 'member berries to undo Rebels and Ezra's sacrifice in the laziest and most meandering way possible. What context has it added to the characters? Much less Star Wars? Do you know more about Ahsoka, Ezra, Sabine, Thrawn, the New Republic, or the Imperial Remnant outside of that Sabine is now force sensitive or lightsabers are suddenly about 10x weaker than ever before? It was all fluff. No real meat. And characters didn't do anything unless plot needed to get from point A to point B. 🤷♂️
@@brb1017 Oh, boo hoo. Andor took the established empire and made them meaner. Is that really the show's best accomplishments? It's not the only show to do so. Literally everything Disney made was made with the intention to make the empire look evil.
Now mind you, I did say Ahsoka is badly written. You Andor fans can only ever see the writing and nothing else. I mean, it's all you have going for you, so that's understandable.
However, when you take a look at the bigger picture... There's nothing there. It's not actually part of Star Wars. It doesn't *feel* part of Star Wars. There's no magic, there's no understanding of the world they're in. I mean, quite literally, they're not. They're not in the Star Wars galaxy, they're not surrounded by the force, they're just random sci fi humans in a random place with Star Wars adjacent content and storm troopers. All it really adds is some badly characterized Yularen, badly characterized Mon Mothma, and a very dark and unfaithful characterization of the rebellion.
Meanwhile Ahsoka, well we already know what it did bad, but let's take a look at what it did right. Right from the get go, Ahsoka is in the cockpit of a ship and the show already *feels* like Star Wars. They got everything right, including the sound design of all things. Pretty impressive. This isn't something they managed to carry through with the rest of the show, but it's present throughout enough of it, a feeling of authenticity and truth that is completely absent from Andor. It's got meaningful characters, it's got meaningful events. We get to see more of the new republic which is always good even if they're also doing them a disservice by making the republic look already complacent.
The show explores aspects of the force, an important part of Star Wars. Said 'member berries'. Fun fact, Star Wars is made for Star Wars fans. 'member berries' is the equivalent of 'very important sustenance to people watching show' so this is a silly term. We get to see how the chosen one works as a force ghost, we get to see Jedi and Dark Jedi, this is peak Star Wars right there.
Then we have the Rebels/Thrawn's return arc, but that's not as good.
Of course, it was all executed pretty badly, but this brings me back to the original point of my comment
Ahsoka: Great ideas, terrible execution
Andor: Terrible ideas, great execution
Conclusion for both shows: Disappointing
Memby? 🫐
I agree with everything you have said so far Thor. In fact I'd say you've given the show the benefit of a doubt way more than you should have. It's normal for different people to have different standards and criteria, but that also doesn't mean every type of criticism is evil. Us the critical viewers also wanted to get an amazing show. We wanted something that would give us the same feeling we had with mandalorian season 1 or Andor. And we didn't get that.
0:35 - Because your critical of something, doesn't mean you didn't enjoy it. I WANT BETTER. I WANT THE BEST CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE EVER. Did i enjoy Ahoka? Yes. But it has problems, big problems. the finale being a Prime Example. Anything that take you out of Submersion of being in that world is a failure. MANY if not ALL of the action scenes were bad, I cringed when Ahsoka told Sabine to use the force while dashing towards the door. My favorite episode was the one with Baylan and Shin explaining what Baylan has heard about the Night sister planet, it tells a LARGER STORY. thats the goal of writing. episode 5 (maybe 6) was great.
It's kind of hilarious how many people these days are so confused by the existence of human emotions. Someone literally responded to my CZcams comment the other day saying, "I swear yall have the sequels on your mind an awful lot for something you apparently hate".
Yes, that's how hate WORKS, my guy. Indifference is the absence of feeling and opinion. Why would you think my animosity would result in a divestiture of emotion? Of action? That we'd just walk away? We feel BECAUSE we care. And caring is not a bad thing -- it's part of being human. Have you met humans before, or what?
People today man. No wonder WWIII is around the corner.
Stay true, Thor. Many of us really appreciate your fair and balanced takes on the Star Wars content we get.
I like the Brewers analogy (was at Tuesdays game)- Brewers have all the pieces to beat a diamondback team, but made some bad choices in the lineups, its maddening...this show has great actors, effects, and ideas - but was horribly implemented... everyone is dumb (besides Baylon)... ugh.
yeah i agree. it can be frustrating when you see what potential something has only for it to fall short of said potential. idk why people can’t imagine that people like the same ideas and concepts behind aspects of the show but didn’t like the execution.
Hurt is the perfect word for it. This series was still good enough that a well written final episode could have still brought most everything together for a satisfying ending to the series, in spite of the gaffes or occasional odd choice. And then that final episode took the lazy way out at every turn. It was so unfortunate. It was like watching someone cook a beautiful cake and then you take a bite and it tastes nothing like it looks. :(
Hey Thor, do you think Ahsoka could’ve been better if Dave Filoni had a good co-writer? I think the overall plot here was pretty good, he maybe just needed someone to help him work out how to get everything in between worked out. Someone like Jon Favreau perhaps? We’ve seen them do some excellent stuff when they’re working together, maybe they just need to stick to that plan.
I have write this in another channel: global scenerio is good, the way to tell it is bad. I guess he needed a better cast too especially for Thrawn. Maybe he could have hire Timothy Zahn to help him (but he is maybe quite old now) it would have been a chance for him to make a Thrawn remake. There's no better than novelist to write stories. Look at all series adapted from novels, they are almost all pretty good. (Outlander, The Last Kingdom, Foundation, The Expanse , GoT lol)
I'd agree, Filoni with a co-writer (or even a proper writer's room) could've helped enormously. Most of the animated shows, which were quite good, had a variety of writers and directors. Maybe Filoni is at his best when he's at a higher level overseeing the project, like George Lucas with ESB and RotJ. Guide the story but leave the writing and directing to others.
@@jimdaniels7531 I was thinking that he does have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses that George does. He’s excellent at building the world and the overarching narrative, but struggles with the specifics of the actual story.
I agree, but this takes some self awareness. George famously had the self awareness after the prequels. He literally listened to criticism and that's why he didn't do 7-9. He sat there and listened to Carrie Fisher roast him in public and took it like a champ. Sad thing is Dave listened back when the clone wars film came out, I just wish he would open his mind up again.
Might I suggest that when a guy like Favreau who has directed two billion dollar movies for Disney, created the flagship show for Disney’s streaming service, helped create the MCU at its very beginning, and written, acted in, and directed many films is seemingly pushed aside by Filoni that no one with talent is going to want to work with Dave in such a capacity?
I think we need to accept that Filoni may be a good ideas and big picture guy, but it's pretty clear at this point that story telling is not his strong suit. There's nothing wrong with not being the best at everything, but we do need to admit when we are reaching beyond our limits. I think this show was beyond his limits. He clearly has a lot of ideas but no real notion of how to lay the groundwork to get there. This is why the show was chock full of empty landscape shots, elongated editing and contrivance after contrivance. He even ends up (unintentionally I think) marginalizing his own characters. Sabine is objectively a bad guy in this story because we are never let into her head and everyone just doesn't question the fact that she single handedly let Thrawn return for her own selfish reasons. I truly feel like I just watched a really polished storyboard version of the Ahsoka show.
my biggest problem is mainly the steaming series format in general, writers have not grasped the concept of an 8 to 10 episode season and they've forgotten that episodes and the shows overall need a beginning middle and end with no room for filler episodes and streaming shows only have a beginning with no middle or end with nothing happening between the first and last episodes, these shows are just plain disappointing with zero fulfillment!
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but even the notion of not wholeheartedly loving every Star Wars project nowadays is something some people can’t deal with.
Looking at praise for the Ahsoka show on places like twitter and CZcams, it’s clear to see that the bar is on the floor. Praising the bare minimum seems to be the status quo at the minute, however when criticising a franchise that we all want so desperately to succeed, people will often say we demand too much, or get personal and defensive.
The absolute praise for 2 seconds of force ghost Anakin at the very end of the show is mind boggling to me.
They're like bloodhounds. If they catch even a sniff of drama they're all over it.
Best Star Wars channel on CZcams. Most of us appreciate your love of SW. Thank you for giving us your grounded thoughts and opinions.
Facts
He actually has balance, I disagree with him, but he is balanced
Star wars theory is just a shill
So much could have been fixed with an extra scene here or there, some more exposition, and some clever editing. For example, showing thrawn and morgan walk through the SD and seeing everything stripped bare to fix the chimera, showing that there's only something like 30 troopers left and maybe a half a dozen working TIE fighters. Then thrawn predicting what will happen, then cutting to exactly what ezra and the gang are doing right at that moment. Even when ahsoka is hiding in that bone yard, thrawn praising his captain for forcing her to hide and to call back the fighters because he didn't want to lose any more pilots. And maybe a dig at Ahsoka when he talks to her about how countless troopers died under her command and how she treated them as disposable people whereas he knows the names and values every one of his pilots, troopers, etc.
You are one of the most level-headed of the Star Wars wonks I read. I was a kid during the OT and loved how each story built upon the other. I thought ROTJ was the weakest of the three, but it had some amazing moments starting with Luke telling Leia she's his sister and then I believe one of the most powerful scenes when Luke turned himself in to Vader. It built from there. I enjoyed the Ahsoka series, but had I not invested so much into Clone Wars and Rebels, I don't think I would have cared about it, just like I really don't care about Mandalorian. The dramatic scenes of Ahsoka, just like all of Disney Star Wars, were dreadfully boring. As proven by the OT, it doesn't have to be that way.
I think unlike the original 6 movies, one of Ahsoka's problems is that it can't stand on it's own. It remind me of S7 of the Clone Wars. The Siege of Mandalor was amazing, but the episodes beforehand were not great. No matter how good the stories that will spawn from Ahsoka will be, only 1 or 2 episodes from this season will be necessary to watch in order to get to the good content. If Rogue One or even the Original Trilogy didn't exist, Andor would still be a phenomenal series worth revisiting on it's own. I totally respect the sentiments from the comment, and it does make me happy to see people that really enjoyed Ahsoka.
Pfft. Yeah that's because Andor is completely detached from Star Wars. That's its whole problem. The show's a generic sci fi show, of course it holds up on its own
@@mar_speedman "Holds up on its own" means it has a complete and satisfying narrative on its own. It properly conveys what is at stake and why. If Andor relied on other series or movies to do that it wouldn't stand on its own regardless of how generic it might be. You seem to have a tendency to make straw man arguments which is just a waste of time and energy.
@@bring-out Just because you can only grasp at straws doesn't mean that's all my argument is.
Andor's nothing but a standalone story that doesn't fit within Star Wars in any way. That's its whole problem. It could hold on it's own and still fit in, but of course it doesn't
@@mar_speedman The argument that it doesn't align with the spirit of Star Wars very well is valid and one I fully understand. I don't agree however that it's necessary for every piece of storytelling media in the Star Wars universe to do that. There are room for the grounded smuggler/soldier/rebel type stories alongside the more grand ones. There is a problem of balance though when the only good show for years is the grounded one. The spirit of Star Wars is and should always be the grand space opera with the force in the center but when that is lackluster it throws off the balance as the grounded shows shouldn't be the ones carrying the franchise. I think that is the real problem, not Andor itself. There is room for it in a thriving Star Wars universe. You might not agree however and that's fine.
@@bring-out You can argue that, but not when a show seeks to introduce new audiences to Star Wars (allegedly) and when everyone hail it as the best piece of Star Wars media that everything else needs to follow in its example.
Though it's a moot point for me by now to care about the future of a Star Wars I've tuned out of, so whatever. *Shrugs*
There's a difference between honest critique and being a hater. An honest critique evaluates based on some sort of criteria, includes the pros/cons, and is generally positive in its overall tone even when the assessment is negative. What I mean by that is that there's never an attack on the creators, actors, or other fans with a different opinion. Finally, it IS possible to absolutely love a TV show or movie while also acknowledging its flaws. I don't think anyone needs to just turn off their brain, enjoy whatever is put in front of them, and shut up. If we can't even discuss art with each other in a civil way, we've no hope of ever working together through complex, real life issues.
"To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it." - Kreia, arguably the best written character of Star Wars
it really is
I think the issue with Star Wars is that the quality of the media has varied heavily for like 30+ years and most people experience it for the first time at an age of wonder. Most people love Star Wars more with their hearts than with their brains(and it's not like Star Wars has ever been THAT deep) so people feel very personal about the parts the love and the parts they feel are a plague on the canon. Andor is at a level of quality the rivals the best television shows of all time and some fans still say it's worse than Kenobi.
Filoni trying to write something actually good and original challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Except he did.
@@achaudhari101 He never did
@@achaudhari101The guy literally and blatantly rips off Tolkien MULTIPLE TIMES in this one season of one series. 😆
@@rector0455I don't think Tolkien would care, to be honest. In fact, I'd love to see some new writers bring some creativity and originality to Star Wars.
@@rector0455 And? Lucas ripped off Valerian, Dune, and Flash Gordon and no one bitched about it let alone sue the guy.
I hate getting called a hater just because I point out something I don't like about something I love (ie. Star wars). I'm passionate when I criticize because I love the IP and hate seeing it go to shit.
I honestly appreciate that you are probably one of the most good faith SW fans on YT. It feels like most SW content creators are either clickbait grifters or fanboys who just scream and point at the screen praising everything.
I watch a lot of Mauler and EFAP, which helps me notice some flaws in shows and movies that I may have missed. It helps me understand a lot more if something is truly good or truly bad. Meanwhile, watching Thor and Naboo help me appreciate things despite them being flawed.
Basically, one says "this is why this is bad", and the other says "yes, this might be bad, but here is why I enjoyed it".
It's funny that someone would imply Thor has been too harsh on Ahsoka, when he was the most good faith and positive towards it that he possibly could.
ONE PIECE is a faithful representation of the anime. That’s why we love it. They didn’t race swap a main character. They didn’t make a character gay that wasn’t gay in the anime. They didn’t make Luffy a girl. They tried to make the fans happy. The actors are fans of the show. The creator of ONE PIECE Oda himself helped with the show. Why can’t Star Wars do this too??
Yeah, I was disappointed by the beginning and end of the show. Middle was totally fine, better than both Kenobi and Boba Fett, but the story wasn't as interesting as Andor. Sad as Ahsoka is my favorite character. I work with people who love anything Star Wars and with one who is pretty much done with it, I'm in the middle, I'll watch everything, but I'll still voice my opinion if I feel the story is lacking
I love when people defend new star wars by saying:"star wars was always sh*t, that's why it's great!"
I know lol its fuckin hilarious
Basically, that comment at the beginning said, "Just consume product and get excited for next product!"
Hey THor, excellent sports analogy; it's like watching a football player tripping over his own feet just before scoring a touchdown.
Here's hoping for the second half...
Fair criticism is what leads to better content. It's one of the reasons I subscribe here!
Hey Thor, your critique is spot on. The finale was senselessly dopey for all the reasons you articulated. It’s just sad, more than anything. With all the challenges to surmount in the process making a Star Wars series, good writing should be the least problematic. It’s table stakes, and they blew it once again.
How much does a script cost, maybe as much as 20 seconds of CGI? How can they not properly invest in what is the foundation of every story? It makes no sense that it was this bad.
One thing Ahsoka cemented for me was how much I want to see stories that are entirely unconnected to any of the movies and shows that have come so far. When they first entered the new galaxy I felt really excited... all new planets; characters; and stories that don't have to be tied to anything that has come before. It was a great feeling for a few minutes.
And then the rest of the show happened.
Thank you Thor, I empathise with your frustration. I’ve been saying that a way to minimise the angst is for users to include the type of shows (SW and non-SW) in their bio so we can understand what their preferences are or their level of expectation for SW content. For example mine would be:
SW: OT, EU, Rouge One, Andor
Non-SW: The Expanse, Altered Carbon, Watchmen, Westworld
Raised by Wolves, Witcher, GoT (S1-5), Future Man, Nolan and Villeneuve movies.
Alternatively, you could create a classification of fan based on your level of SW expectation. Preston Jacobs did something similar for Game of Thrones when he reviewed the episodes through three characters: Sweetrobin (book purists and objective viewpoint e.g. lore expert), NightKing (high expectations of writing quality e.g. Andor) and Chad Summerchild (likes the spectacle and action mainly e.g. lightsabers and pew pew). This way people might check their comments and also acknowledge that people get different things out of SW, and it’s not just about what happens, it can be about quality.
That said, when Game of Thrones was at its best, it catered for everyone, and i believe SW can do that too, but Disney aren’t interested in putting the work in as long as they can rely upon Chad Summerchild fans to love a show if they put enough pew pew in…
I think that analogy about parenting will be completely lost on twenty somethings raised with the mentality that disciplining a child literally is a form of cruelty. Which unfortunately is the target demographic for Ahsoka.
I'm a 20 something and I don't think that. If anything, I regret not being more disciplined. There *are* a few different meanings of the word, though. If by 'disciplining' you mean hitting/hurting someone physically, well yes. It is a form of cruelty. Furthermore it doesn't actually fulfill the intention of disciplining a child.
morons hit their kid, intelligent people have a discussion with them and make sure they understand why something is wrong/the child should change their actions. Stop trying to make little automatons that get punished when they step out of line, teach your kid to actually think and make choices without fear, but with intent, purpose and intelligence.
The people who automatically hate modern Star Wars no matter what and the people who unquestioningly love all of it are two sides of the same coin. They both give Disney an excuse to put out mediocre products because on the one hand "haters gonna hate" and, on the other, look at all these people clapping like seals no matter what they release. There has to be a middle ground where you give credit where it's due, but don't make excuses for bad writing and sloppy storytelling
Yes, especially if they ever want to attract new fans to keep the franchise alive. Disney has a quality problem, and hopefully they recognize and address it.
R1 and Andor are my favorite star wars content, the rest is absolute garbage. So Disney gave me the best and the worst. The only thing that's middle ground for me is the mandalorian.
My wife appreciates when I try to make dinner, but she doesn’t like it when I burn the food…
“Good try hubby. Next time, have the fire extinguisher ready.”
I am a good cook
I cannot continue to take show after copy-paste show just spat out, and swallow it all. Andor was a step in the right direction, but we are literally going back to same-old, same-old. Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Bad Batch Season 2 (to an extent), all kind of wore me out. I never even watched Tales of the Jedi. I have deleted my Disney+ account, because I will not give my money to Disney when they insist on running Star Wars in general into the ground. I don't know if I even consider many of these shows canon anymore.
You may notice that Disney very little related to the OT anymore, and (I believe) the only reason Disney even gets the views that it does is because of that subset of Clone Wars/ Mandalorian fans who will watch nearly anything related to it. Eventually even they will get worn out. I love the Clone Wars and the Mandalorian, but I could not stay to see what was being produced by Disney. Granted, many of their shows are excellent, but they have no creativity. They are repeating themselves. Nothing new. Same old- same old.
I was hesitant about the show given the track record of shows about beloved characters. Kenobi/book of boba. The reason I was excited about Andor right when it was announced was because of the potential of showing the ugly side of the rebellion or other internal politics. It was exactly what I wanted. I feel like every time they make a series of a beloved character, they think that alone will carry a show.
You can have a "magical fun adventure" and also have competent writing and filming. That's where Ahsoka falls flat -- the quality just wasn't there. The themes, characters, tone, etc. were all fine, in fact they pretty much grew out of TCW and Rebels, which were both great shows. The choice doesn't have to be between a well written but dour show like Andor vs. poorly written but fun adventure Ahsoka. Don't think it's too much to ask to have decent quality in all entries of one of the top franchises in existence.
I feel like the finale got hamstringed quite a bit after Ray Stevenson died, and so relatively close to the series debut, as well. It felt so unnatural for Baylan and Shin to only pop up at the very end that it makes me think that a lot of their scenes got cut because they probably set up a story that involved Ray coming back in season 2, which is sadly not possible anymore.
It really felt like something else was meant to happen originally, and I’m thinking that’s why there were so many loose ends. He died after filming was completed, so they’d be stuck with all these scenes that lead to a story that can’t be told now, meaning the only real option would be to cut them entirely.
A good barometer for whether a Star Wars entry is as good as it could be is whether or not you'd ever sit down and watch it again. It'll be interesting to come back in a few years and ask the people who got mad at others for not loving Ahsoka if they've ever even done that. The best of Star Wars is so famous for its rewatchability that you can't really call anything that never gets rewatched the best of Star Wars.
Thank you for what you do Thor! You are genuinely my favorite Star Wars CZcamsr to listen to.
I do love Ahsoka, but I don’t have a problem with people not liking it. I think Andor is still the greatest S1 is still the best Star Wars in recent decades, and I love Ahsoka and the first two seasons of The Mandalorian.
Exactly.
If people like or don't like something don't go full ballistic on them if your opinion doesn't match theirs 100%.
That's just common decency which seems to be quite rare these days.
The problem with Disney Star Wars is, it's soo tainted by the worst parts of it, that the few good things don't matter anymore for many folks.
It's like a meal that has some s*** in it, the meal might be good, but you wouldn't eat it anymore.
It was so incredibly satisfying to hear Thor's impassioned rant at that first question. People like that in the first question are 100% the issue on both sides of the argument.
For me you are the best and most neutral, objective and honest star wars youtube by far.
I am so glad you compared one piece to Ahsoka. I’ve been saying the same thing. One piece was sooo good and made me care about these characters so much. Nami’s arch made me tear up. I wish something in Star Wars could make me tear up or feel something about these characters. Closest I’ve ever gotten was Andor no way out and the final episode of clone wars.
I better not hear any complaints when we get to the character that turns characters into different genders.
Hey Thor, after finishing Jedi Survivor recently ( I waited for all the patches before jumping in), I have to say I think that of all the characters developed under the Disney ownership of Lucasfilm, Cal Kestis is the best written.
This is pretty off the cuff but let's think about it for a second:
The first game
A surviving Padawan of Order 66 who has suppressed and even forgotten some force abilities
His adventures to find the holocron and relearning his old and new abilities.
Coming to grips with his master's demise
Learning to live with and fight the Empire instead of hiding
His story introducing us to the ancient Zeffo, which is a huge expansion of lore
The second game:
A full-fledged Jedi knight fighting a seemingly fruitless battle with the Empire
Losing nearly all his crew on Coruscant
Slowly realizing he may not have to fight and he may have a higher purpose
Accepting his feelings for Merrin despite the jedi code
Bode's betrayal and having to kill him and become a surrogate father to his daughter
Cere's death
The ease at which he drew upon the dark side
While all of this doesn't sound too amazing, I can't think of a single character that has this level of depth that has come from the Disney era. What say you?
I apologize that this is completely off topic lol
The great frustration with these shows is that with a few easy changes, with more thoughtful dialogue and less internal inconsistency this show could have pretty amazing.
‘One Piece’ is a good example of great adaptation and writing. The characters are expressive and we rapidly grow to care about that wacky world.
You were fair in your assessment of this show. I am frankly shocked at how bad a show Filoni created. A few parts are good, and a couple of characters (Baylan and Shin) were great, but man is the story flawed...and frankly, the actions of the characters, particularly the last couple of episodes are just not defendable. It's amateur hour writing.
This ain’t a 2 or a 1/10 show.
Indeed. And it's been like this with every show so far. Andor being the exception. Which was excellent.
All I know is that this show created a very solid divide in the fanbase. At least finally something came out that is not generally loved or generally hated
This show didn't divide the fan base. The sequels did that.
Shifting Baseline Syndrome is strong among both Star Wars and Star Trek fans. "Magical fun adventures" also need to be well written and directed, because obviously bad writing and silly plot errors break the viewer's immersion in the story. And the instant you lose immersion, it's like seeing the words on the page instead of visualising the story the book is telling you. But some fans have shifted their baseline to the extent that they will swallow anything that lazy studios will pump out.
Hey Thor,
You’re right. Years ago I was guilty of asking you to try to be more positive, I don’t remember when exactly. However, you responded to me and you challenged me. If I was a weaker man I would have missed your message. You said EXACTLY what you said in this video , and you couldn’t be more right.
I’ve been a loyal follower of your since your numbers were insignificant. I remember the first time I heard “LETS TALK SOME STAR WARS” my immediate reaction was man I wish I could hang out with this guy. I messaged you saying so, and you responded to me, it was awesome. I, at that very moment, became a forever listener of your work.
Not very long after that, you started discord hang outs. Which i participated in. During one of those meet ups you asked for feedback on your channel. I remember I said sometimes I watch your videos late at night in the dark and your logo was WAY TOO BRIGHT and recommended you reverse the color scheme. BRO… YOU DID IT!! And at that moment you made me feel as if I was apart of the channel. It’s weird, but this community is bigger than Star Wars itself so with all I have said, people need to know you are not HATING. you are standing firm on your standards, firnStarWars! The fact of the matter is the Disney+ Ashoka show could have been WAY BETTER - no matter how much someone may have loved it… you identifying this fact is not the problem. The fact that you can comment on its shortcomings is the heart of the problem…
this is probably too personal of a comment for you to mention, but f^ck it. I hope you read it.
Thanks for this comment, my friend. I think there's a lot of people that don't understand (or don't want to believe) that I really am here to 'talk some Star Wars' and my motivation has always been and always will be to see Star Wars be the best it can be. Nor do I think they understand that I actually appreciate the people who watch my videos (and sometimes offer some really good advice); that it's not all just something I say to get clicks or subs or whatever, but it's what I mean and try to be all about. And so thanks for sticking with me all these years, it means a lot to me. Truly.
Hey, Thor. Do you think that bringing Galen Marek back into canon and fight Ahsoka would be a good idea? I honestly think it would have much thematic weight having two of Anakin/Vader's apprentices fight which would kickstart a new character arc for Galen. Some people might not want him in canon because he is perceived as "overpowered" (even though canon can be just as over-the-top with the Force as in Legends, such as Palpatine lifting hundreds of Star Destroyers in TROS or Merrin being able to teleport in Jedi Survivor) but he is not OP as some claim, as the video game is deliberately over-the-top for entertainment value while the novelization is the lore version of the story. For example, he only defeated Vader because Force lightning is basically Vader's kryptonite and he did not pull down a Star Destroyer from the sky, he simply steered it out of control until it crashed on its own.
We just need some genius level writing to make it work
No, they’ll ruin him like they did Thrawn.
@@SpaceCase1214 Only if Filoni is writing him.
Starkiller would annihilate this clumsily slow old lady 😆
No because KK would never have a male character that strong become canon.
Was that guy in a coma for a month? Compared to other CZcamsrs I’ve seen here, you’ve been kind and charitable to this series.
Wow, Thor actually got angry. Never heard him sound anything other than patient and pleasant. I understand the frustration, though. I wondered when the breaking point would come.
Don't ask questions. Just consume product then get excited for next product.
Hey, "we" (Ahsoka dislikers) want cool magical adventures too! Just because it was *their* magical adventure doesn't mean it's *everyone's.* The Jedi games are definitely more like that, but Ahsoka can't shake a candle at those 2 games' writings.
Facts, Cal Kestis was a phenomenally well written character and the games captured the spirit of star wars in a way that ahsoka never could.
Too bad the second game still runs like dogshit on PC @@CedarHunt
Definitely. Cal has had a great character development this far but I didn’t hate all of Ahsoka. Really only the last 2 or 2.5 episodes flipped my optimism that had built up thus far.
Reading your comment, I thought you meant the Jedi Knight games. Even though you did not, Ahsoka still can't shake a candle to these jedi games' writings.
One of the few Disney-Lucasfilm projects that are competently made (except Battle Scars which really screws over the character progression) and the rest of them are just flat.
I have actually seen very nuanced discussion around Ahsoka compared to other worse D+ shows. Ahsoka was fine, but it SHOULD have been so much better!
@@Ian-fy6lc I think there might actually be a good show somewhere on the editing room floor. The amount of filler and extended shots in this show was criminal.
This shows works like for the people who watched the animation series because it has a lot of easter eggs but the story makes no sense. Ezra switch planets with Ashoka a Sabine.
Milwaukee Brewers/Star Wars crossover:
Most sounds like a star wars name: Sal Frelick or Thyago Vieira
Most likely to be mistaken for a bantha: rowdy tellez
Seemingly has the force: devin williams
Hey Thor, I have a theory about what happened with Episode 8 of Ahsoka, and I would like your opinion on it. Personally, I can't help but shake the feeling that Dave Flioni had a better idea for the Season Finale, but it was changed because of the Director (Rick Famuyiwa) or Kathleen Kennedy wanted it to be what it turned out to be. I'm in no way defending Dave Flioni here, and I do realize he did write the entire series while also directing two of the episodes. However, I have seen many cases where the director or someone else messes with the writer's work, and I wonder if you think this was the case here.
Why are you painting Filoni and Rick as the bad guys?
@@achaudhari101 I'm not painting Filoni and Rick as the bad guys. In fact, I'm a big fan of Dave Filoni, and I really do enjoy some of his work. However, I feel some of his work, such as the finale of Ahsoka wasn't as good as it could've been and I feel it was because someone else interfered with his idea or he himself made some bad writing decisions. On a side note: criticizing someone's work isn't the same as painting them as bad guys. For instance, I don't like what Rian Johnson did with The Last Jedi. But I don't paint him as a bad guy at all.
@@achaudhari101Lol. You are a perfect example of the kind of fan Thor was talking about.
Problem is that it could evolve into straight up being against the guy. I mean you said you’re not defending Filoni.
@@achaudhari101why would that be a problem?
agree with you as you can criticize something you love as you want to make it better and it saddens me to see wonderful opportunities missed. Andor, the Expanse, one piece are great examples of good writing. It can be done and I want it in my star wars shows...
Great fantasy story telling isn't great because it takes place in fantastical settings, it's because it has a great story that just so happens to take place in a fantasy world. What makes a great story isn't the fact that there was a plot to it. It's not that simple or easy. That's why great stories regardless of genre or medium or when they were created so GREAT.
It's fine if Andor wasn't someone's cup of tea because they just aren't as interested in exploring the world of Star Wars for the non-force users, but no one can say it was a poorly executed STORY. Ahsoka, on the other hand, felt like it was checking off all the boxes for what makes something "Star Wars-y" on a surface level: Jedi, "Sith" (even if they weren't actually Sith), Empire, Night Sisters, new alien species, space battles, light saber duels, a Mandalorian, quirky droids, I could go on... But the heart of the actual story and the characters didn't feel like Star Wars. It feels like deja vu with the people saying "why can't you just enjoy a fun story" like with the sequel trilogy all over again.
The thing is... Ahsoka wasn't a fun story. It was boring and slow, and the character motivations were inconsistent if not lacking altogether sometimes. Fans have every right to be disappointed by this series that was supposed to be the continuation of the Clone Wars and Rebels side of the grand Star Wars universe, this story we have been following for 15 years.
You're completely in the right, Thor. Being disappointed just means we want better and know it can be better. Can you imagine an Ahsoka series that was given the same air-tight storytelling and intensity as Andor but with all the fantasy elements we love from those previous shows? It would have been incredible! I believe it genuinely could have saved Star Wars. It's sad how much the two Disney+ shows (Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) focusing specifically the heart of Star Wars--the Jedi--have failed so miserably.
I don't want to lose hope for Star Wars, but my patience is waning... Star Wars should be inspiring, not just entertaining. And so far, it's struggling to even be entertaining anymore. But something like Andor in how it was handled (not necessarily the subject matter, although I did enjoy it) proves that any modern Star Wars story can be incredible if given the right attention and care. That's why so many fans are disappointed with Ahsoka.
When 'social media' started in the late 90s, my prof at (Dutch) university in marketing communication predicted that internet would polarise and divide opinions and people into the ridiculuous. Sadly he was right. People simply lost the skill to listen, compregend and debate with another, the no longer can 'agree to disagree'. The lack of human interaction has vaporized humanity. And he also made another prediction, that Artificial Intelligence will only make matters much darker and worse. And unfortunately, we're seeing the deepfake vids, photos, essays, articles, .... poisining human communications further. I find you're comments, reviews, thoughts the most well-balanced, often refreshing and original on any Star Wars topic.