How quickly would the public turn on Keir Starmer if elected?
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Are we sleepwalking into a crisis that could totally overwhelm our prisons? Why is the South West often forgotten in politics? Why do political honeymoons often come to such abrupt endings?
Alastair is again joined by friend of the show David Gauke to answer all these questions and more on today’s episode of The Rest Is Politics: Question Time.
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00:00 Intro
00:09 Who is your hero David Gauke?
02:19 How can we reform a prison system in crisis?
07:22 How much of a honeymoon will Labour get? Would the public turn on him?
11:33 Why does politics ignore the South West?
15:34 What is going on in Catalonia?
17:59 South Africa correction
18:44 International students for universities
22:14 Why do the Labour left seem to hate Starmer more than Sunak?
26:10 Views on Ipswich promotion & investment grassroots sports
28:58 Darren Bent
31:18 Outro
David is a great stand in for Rory, really hope he’s back on again soon.
I'm done with this right centrist stuff
.... what you want them?
@@fplyerbs5251 You dont have to listen then, go away.
@@fplyerbs5251 If you don't like centrist views this isn't the place for you.
@@SplashTasty yeah totally... I'm not forced to listen but you're not forced to read my message... Should we stand by and lap up stuff from someone that idolises Thatcher???
They’d turn on Starmer practically before his bags were moved into no.10.
my feeling us people are not so much voting Labour in, as voting Tories out. And Starmer isn’t exactly endearing himself to the Labour faithful.
That's what really annoys me about Alister because he's clearly close to him so he can't come out and say the truth that he's a spineless Tory in all but name
Labour leaders are rarely loved by the Labour faithful, because Labour Party members tend to be left-wing, just as Tory party members tend to be right of Attila the Hun. Labour PMs tend not to be hard-left radicals.
I think this depends how open Labour are on their offering to the country. If the manifesto is limited to "We aren't the Tories!" disillusion and hostility will come in hard and fast!
@@buzzukfiftythree I don't think Labour needs to be that far left to appease most labour members who appreciate that if they want to get elected, they need to be near the centre.
However, what it looks like has happened, is that the Tories got baited by the right, and Labour have swooped in to claim the absolute centre, forgoing any real socialist/ leftist/ progressive principles.
@@samuelmelton8353I wouldn’t call traditional labour members progressive.
I thought a great deal more of David Gauke until he called Thatcher a "great prime minister". She laid waste to northern industry, thus effectively ruining vast swathes of that part of the country, without lifting a finger to replace those jobs. And before anyone tells me Tony Blair did nothing much about the north either, I know that, but she was the one who laid the foundation stones of London and the SE being all that mattered. Gauke is a middle class southerner though - skewed priorities.
Thatcher didn’t destroy indsutrial base in the north, globalisation did that. All thatcher did was remove the government subsidies for the those industries, because they were loss making enterprises. Why should the government pay private business to stay in business ?
Well Northern industry had to go anyway eventually. If not because of economic reasons then environnemental reasons.
@@MachivelianBear "without lifting a finger to replace those jobs" - I think that's the important part. When you make a large number of people unemployed in a small geographic area there are serious knock on effects.
@@MachivelianBear Indeed, and a more reasonable PM and her cabinet would have given some thought to what was going to happen to the cities and towns, and to the millions of their inhabitants whose fairly reasonable earnings were suddenly to disappear.
@@johnridout6540 Including to the south east. look at London now, unaffordable to people in even very well paid jobs, and the areas around London hardly any better. It's going to end up a multibillionaires' playground.
Harry Enfield was impressive. A great stand in.
haha! Thanks for putting a name to the familiarity I felt
Yep if you only see a thumbnail or a short clip from this you could be forgiven for asking why Harry was sitting in Rory's chair for this one.
If you don't believe me try a still or without audio.
That depends on how quickly the Fail/Torygraph can find an example of him putting the hot water in before the milk on his first morning in office.
I wish more politicians would aspire to be virtuous than winning votes.
They don't get to help anyone if they don't win votes. Sitting in opposition being virtuous achieves nothing.
Issue with say the Corbynites is they are are willing to destroy anyone who isnt a paragon, including if a leader needs to compromise.
You wish for more politicians who won't ever have the power to implement their virtue. It's not a pleasant reality, but it is the reality
@@tisFrancesfault I have no issue with virtuous people for their virtue. If you are referring to Starmer taking on Natalie Elphicke, I do not agree with his decision. Neither do I not wish to destroy him because of it. I suppose that means I am not a so called 'Corbynite'!
@@Jons8ye1no one needs to be destroyed but we can't hold him as our leader. He has mis-read the moral mood of the people. Power for power's sake is intolerable and leads to despotism. Being a lawyer, Starmer is used to making convincing arguments for the sake of it. That's not the role of a politician. We must break up this leadership team for the good of the country. I'm not a Corbyn supporter, I'm going to vote Conservative for the first time in my life as a sacrifice for my conscience. Starmer is a complete disaster
Best comment from Alistair “I have an opinion on everything!” 😂
There we go...my fears were right...THATCHER
Why Thatcher?! I think she comes a close second to Truss. Bloody awful PM!
People that like Thatcher either benefited from her economically or admire cruelty in people
@@spd28237 yeah totally... I was concerned after the last podcast that Rory's mate was miles away from my world view and him naming Thatcher as an inspiration is a red flag
@@spd28237 Johnson, Truss and Sunak are the worst for me, Thatcher would likely be next tho
It's like saying "I supported pre war Hitler". 🤦♀
The Southwest got mentioned in a political discussion 😳
As someone who lives in the Southwest (i.e., the real Southwest, not Bristol), I can tell you we get absolutely nothing here and haven't for years. Plymouth is a city of 280,000 people & we don't even have a motorway to us let alone a decent rail system! No airport either. The housing situation throughout the Southwest is diabolical. Our biggest hospital declared it's 5th critical incident by 5th April this year,. It just goes on. The way we are looked at and treated is absolutely outrageous and a disgrace. My constituency MP Johnny Mercer is possibly the laziest MP & we never see him locally (which is probably why you didn't remember him as a cabinet minister either), but our Labour MP Luke Pollard is fantastic. I really think the political attitude to the Southwest is just - "let's go on holiday there!" 😡
The only thing the regions ever had was EU funding and that just about took the edge off everything and that was paid due to single market membership, which was generally £1 in and £9 out.
Plymouth won't really get any serious investment now for decades due to the current extra costs of companies that can still trade within the UK being higher than the contribution the UK used to give to the EU.
Hear hear. We have the part timer MP Geoffrey Cox. They’re all bloody useless.
@@woofla123 yet it is always staunchly tory, people dont learn
To be fair to Mercer he's busy at the moment trying to avoid getting sent to prison for contempt
They think of England as the rich south and poor north, completely ignoring the south west
There are a lot of reasons to oppose starmer on the left or otherwise. My biggest reason for disliking Starmer is yes he is better than the Tories, but based on his current direction, the UK will decline under him, at a slower rate but it will decline, because he has put himself in an economic straight jacket. The truth is, despite the economic struggles in the UK the UK still has a far stronger economy than at times in history when the government were delivering more for people. We need investment, and to build a case for that investment. Starmer is not prepared to do that. Also, the fiscal constraints demonstrate a lack of understanding of the economic reality. It seems that UK political economists have not reassessed their models of economy in light of how it has behaved in recent years, in the UK and across the world, observablly MMT is how the economy works, Biden has realised this in the US to considerable effect, UK political economists are still operating as if Breton Woods was still in effect. The problem is not that the other parties do understand it and Labour doesn't, none of them seem to, however Labour represents the progressive wing of the spectrum even if they don't act like it at times.
If Labour win power and mess it up, which they will under the current direction, then it will be taken as an opportunity to move the overton window further right. The next election the Tories will have reinvented themselves, the UK will have declined, the client media will castigate Labour as representing "failed left wing policy", even if their policy is not that left, and use it as a rationale for another Neoliberal absolutist like Truss.
In addition, Starmer seems incredibly fickle, trying on policies like prom outfits, and I can't see any substance, conviction, or principals behind it. Whatever the manifesto he presents at an election, I would not trust it as far as I could throw him. People make the point that politicians should be more open to and transparent about changing their mind, particularly when the facts change, and I agree. That can justify a handful of u-turns but not the torrent that Labour has recently undertaken since his leadership pledges. Yes, you have to win to change things, but if you don't have principals then what are you going to achieve as a result of winning?
Furthermore, the nature and extent of donations and gifts that the Labour party has received from vested interests under Starmer's leadership irks me. Donations & gifts from big tech, energy, finance, gambling firms and private healthcare. I understand Labour need money to win an election, but more should be made from other sources, many of the u-turns seem suspiciously related to gifts and donations.
Finally, Starmer has lead with an iron grip, some of the deselctions were justified but many were not, there has been many kicked out/pushed out of the party and some of the rationale has been very weak. Starmer has also come across quite authoritarian in his policy approaches. Also, despite the popularity of proportional representation among members, and it's ability block the Tories out of power, damaging the country as they have done in the last 14 years, Starmer will not abide it. The simple fact is, given that the public and most parties lie to the left economically, the only reasons a Labour leader would have not to back PR is either, that they don't agree with progressive economics, and want to maintain right wing economics in spite of democracy, or that they do agree that progressive economics is good for the country, but they are prepared to overlook that to ensure that they don't have to concede any power, even if the country goes to hell in handcart subsequently.
Despite how much I dislike Starmer, I would still vote for him, in spite of most of the failings above, if he stood on PR. Because even if the UK does decline under Labour, which it will, be it at a slower rate, at least it would be difficult to secure a right wing absolute mandate in the future that could further damage the UK.
well said
Re: over-reliance on international students, immigration is a red herring. There are many major and subtle ways it erodes the university system as a whole which aren't acknowledged. Universities have less incentive for developing curricula and tutors are less invested in mentorship when half of the class will be across the world, teaching british students (sometimes
Football isn't "sport", it is a sport. There are millions of people who don't like football but who enjoy sport. For instance myself, I hate football, but I love athletics, cycling, F1, WEC, snooker, rugby, badminton. In fact, I might go as far as to suggest that I like sport more than most football supporters, who for the most part seem to only like football.
I agree, football is not sport.
It's much more important than that.
The problem is that we lock up far too many people for minor crimes, leaving little space for serious offenders who pose a threat to the public. It's been conclusively proven that short-term prison sentences are ineffective and may even make reoffending more likely; better rehabilitative services are needed alongside a reprioritisation of our criminal justice goals rather than building more jails.
Absolutely, well said.
I'm becoming much more moderate, one nation, Blairite in my old age. Just want confident, competent personalities. The current lot are making me very concerned for my childrens future. It's been chaos since Cameron resigned after Brexit.
The labour side with Jeeza as the party head was not a symbol of continuity either.
Probably because you're comfortable so your happy to condemn the future generations to a life without the comfort you have granted by the state support you received. Shame on you
@@Cronhour did you read the comment?
@@benstephenson8132 yes. You can say you care about your children's future but if you support politics that protects the status quo of managed decline it doesn't really matter what you say you care about.
I wanna see the flirtatious nature between Gauke and Stewart one day
I don’t mind sport, but I do dislike football, rugby and cricket. I suffered at grammar school, because I was very short-sighted and lacked any coordination, not allowed to wear any form of spectacles and was hopeless at all three of them. Standing and waiting to be chosen on sports afternoon each week and being ignored until one is the last to be chosen has damaged me mentally! I think it’s largely a dislike of team sports because I am just not a team player in the context of sport. Being a kind and gentle guy I also loathe and detest boxing.
That sounds horribly familiar. Ain't no better you than you though 👍♥️ Childhood issues impact us all and I found therapy has helped me quite a bit
Get counselling and move on.. Life is too short
Bristol decided to get rid of the mayor because Marvin Rees is insanely corrupt and only cares about his vanity projects. The fact that the Metro Mayor (who also covers Bristol interestingly) has spent most of their time slapping down his idiotic policies, for example:
- replacing the Colston statue with a statue of himself
- wanting to build an underground for Bristol (which would cost about £8b)
- have a mural depicting himself in a graffiti style on the side of a bridge
- scrapping plans left by the previous mayor to build an arena right by the station temple meads and instead giving rights to a Malaysian firm who are working on a site which is 3 or 4 miles from the city centre
- flying all over the world giving monthly speeches about how we need to reduce our carbon footprint
- refusing to build houses on brownfield sites which has caused a huge spike in house prices (much higher than the overall national spike)
"flying all over the world giving monthly speeches about how we need to reduce our carbon footprint" - You could say this about so many of these climate alarmist and deluded fools, "The world's definitely gonna end this time! I promise! I know we predicted that 100 times before but THIS TIME, it is DEFINITELY over!" lmao how does anyone still buy into this nonsense?
Thank you folks.
Considering why do the Labour left seem to hate Starmer more than Sunak?
I'd say that's typical of an almost religious trend in weeding out heresy within groups, which means you attack those who mostly agree with you because they're more likely to be in the same echo chamber. The others in the other echo chamber don't matter, being evil or stupid or both, and beyond help or contempt.
That seems a needlessly judgemental and uncharitable thing to say - why not just ask them?
I don't think anyone on the left hates starmer more than sunak. And the reason people dont like starmer probably has more to do with the fact he walks back on most of his promises making him a lot harder to trust
@@RaRa-eu9mw The question was answered directly and the conversation stayed with the issue from the perspective of left wing parties only, which is fine.
My point was that it's not just a "left thing" or even just a political thing, but something that can be seen in all sorts of group interactions to a greater and greater extent.
The hard left of Labour always hate the party leader. All part of their classist dogma and binary approach to politics.
I think the left wants a left wing party to bring change not more of the same. The left wont be voting for Sunak so its a pointless point.
19:00 to this end, the UK needs to re-invest in paying professors well. If you lose teaching talent, you'll equally lose the attraction of UK universities for foreign students. The fees are quite high and, as these degrees are marketed as research-oriented, we do want to be working with the best academics in our fields, whom you'll only be able to hire with attractive salary offers. Labour must re-invest in UK universities as well as providing well-funded alternatives (associates degrees, etc.)
In answer, as long as it takes the press to get started.
Thank you for a good talk
The moment a labour MP doesn't tip his waiter 200%. The bar for Tories is very different than for labour
Yes, and the attacks on him will be driven mainly by the right-wing media. It’s what happens now and it sickens me.
"Hampshire is southwest adjacent" erm, no. No, it really isn't. Hampshire is so firmly south east it practically has a giant pink shirt covering the entire county.
Well Dorset is in the southwest and Hampshire is adjacent to Dorset.
This was sublime
Great Rory replacement, except the football!
Thann you for the question on the SW
I could listen to this for about one minute until Mr Tory started praising that witch Thatcher with zero pushback from the allegedly "labour" foil.
Now we need Rory and David on the same episode!
where is Rory?
@@Catherine-wm3uf meditation retreat
@@fergusbyett8088 it sounds like Vipassana? - I wonder where he goes - UK? USA? somewhere else? - but don't mean to be intrusive.
I'm curious as to why there are dozens of podcast episodes on the Apple Poscast app, that do not appear here, on the YT channel. For example, the Dec 12, 2023 ep, focusing on Israel/Hamas war.
I enjoyed this apart from the football! I don't understand people who like sport and what has football got to do with politics?
The thing is, the left have been saying for 14 years that "austerity" is all an evil political choice by the Tories even though public spending today as a percentage of GDP is substantially higher than when Tony Blair was PM. And even under George Osborne public spending as a percentage of GDP was reduced from the 2010 post crash high but not back to the lower level it was at under Blair. From about 45% to 40%. While the Tories have made political choices, it has largely been to direct resources at the NHS (yes, really) and pensioners (triple lock). While spending on things like justice and education has fallen. Welfare support for working age people, non- disabled, is historically low. But how does Labour spend more money? Spending is at 45% today, actually historically high. So the room for more spending is difficult, unless you redirect resources from pensioners to other services etc... But hard.
David is an ideal stand-in; excellent pod well done to both of you!
Even if you spent 50% more per prisoner, halving the prison population would reduce the cost of housing prisoners by 25%. How could that not win votes? If the NHS could do something similar you'd be winning the next two elections.
I can see why Rory likes David. Comes across as someone with substance and decency!
So essentially, we're spending about £2-3 billion more than comparable countries in Europe, just keeping people locked up. (Assuming their price-per-head is roughly in line with ours)
Top broadcast! More Gauke!
Maybe it’s time to stop putting the prison system out into private hands, currently it is one in ten prisons in the UK that are run for profit…
If standards are not maintained then no bonuses for the board of the controlling company. That would change things.
@@FredTheLard-ry7di or maybe the prison system should not have been opened to private businesses, we know the problem private water companies have done to the country and now the Tories have given the prison system over to them as well…
At the risk of being labelled a pedant, I feel the need to defend the Germans based on the hau ab comment, which is a lot closer to ‘give it up’ or at worst ‘get lost’ (from verb ab hauen - to run away) than the far more fun ‘f off’. As a brit living in Germany I’m pretty sure on this but am willing to be corrected. Fair comment, it’s still a healthy rebuke to a PM. Love your casts by the way. I have been a lifelong political abstainer, being disillusioned by the bullshit, dishonesty and hypocrisy in the system. Your conversations have genuinely rekindled my interest and active engagement. Thank you and keep it up!
I enjoyed this episode immensely but how did the answer to Q about the criminal justice system end up being entirely about prisons? What about legal aid deserts, crumbling courts (the ones that haven’t been sold off) and huge backlogs leading to some trials being delayed for years, never mind the invidious single justice procedure and indefinite sent. There’s so much needs fixing.
George Eustace is the MP for Camborne and Redruth in Cornwall . Not sure if he is till in the cabinet though . Sir Geoffrey Cox was the Attorney General and is MP for Torridge and West Devon , Johnny Mercer was or is the Veteran Minister and is MP for Plymouth Moor View and if my memory serves me right I think he had the right to sit in Cabinet , Ale Chalk is MP for Cheltenham ( not Devon and Cornwall , but still the South West technically ) , Michelle Donnellan i MP for Chippenham in Wiltshire and the Immigration Minister and is MP for Mid Dorset and North Poole , but not sure his is a cabinet position .
The Immigration Minster being Michael Tomlinson , who has a much lower profile than his predecessor Robert Jenrick .
The more you spend on the individual prisoner, the less you spend on your overall prison system.
But don't tell this to your politicians, it's a secret!
The current housing problem has it's roots with the decision to allow people to buy council houses. Had we maintained a stock of houses for social care we would not have the shortage we currently have.
That's an important factor, but we also have serious problems with planning, tax, etc.
Thought the southwest section was interesting. I am a Stroud constituent so my vote will mean a lot at the next election. Thought it was interesting that HS2 was mentioned as trains are a big issue here, I think Stroud to London is one of the most expensive train routes in the country (I had to pay £50 each way, even with a 30% discount, when I would travel between home and university in Manchester).
We have one the highest incarceration rates and long sentences and yet newspapers bang on about cases where short sentences are given and push for even longer sentences.
Are Labour going to make housing affordable?
That will be the issue that will turn people away from Labour. It's going to be the defining issue for many people under 40
It's been a crisis looming for forty years. As a young man living in an Essex suburb and desperate for a place of my own, I couldn't afford my own home then.
@@ianrobinson7753 housing was affordable in 1985, it wasn't in 2005 however
The only way they can do this is to re-regulate the housing markets
Bristol got rid of the Mayoral position because the incumbent is *such* a self-interested disaster.
If he ends up with an enormous majority, it's his own MPs he should be worried about.
I’m surprised that DG didn’t mention Iain MacLeod (died 1970)
Within memory and someone who was admired by Ken Clark.
Why any Conservatives will say Thatcher was good without any caveats stuns me.
The Falklands conflict was due, almost 100%, to her stupidity and her totally ignoring the advice from intelligence experts.
She was a deeply flawed woman, and how you can say she was good without mentioning her errors is beyond logic. (IMO)
How long before Starmet is finished?? As soon as the media perceiive that he is not doing what they tell him to do. Right now he has left all his principles behind , and if he has a programme discernable, he's be safe as long as he does not deviate from the Centre RIGHT.
First!!!! Also, as an American the "honeymoon" period is said to last 100 days, but in the British system it seems to last 0 days 😅
Yes Ken Clarke was a good man and a
Good politician, if that's possible
He still is. He was just fighting the good fight against the Rwanda Bill in the House of Lords
You two work well together - very interesting
He won't reverse Brexit, so the country will continue to decline, so the honeymoon period will be weeks not months.
Margaret Thatcher was NOT a great PM. She presided over a boom and bust economy; her policies decimated manufacturing in this country and the spate of privatisations carried out during her period as PM (and continued under Major) are partly why we’re in the mess now. The right to buy scheme for sitting tenants may have generated much needed revenue, but the failure to allow that revenue to renew the social housing stock has resulted in the housing problems we now have. The culture of “s*d you Jack, I’m alright” has persisted since the 1980s. To be a good PM you have to be pragmatic; she certainly wasn’t that. But I think even she would be disgusted at Brexit and the way her party has run the country over the past 14 years.
But how do you turn non profit failing companies around? It could be argued Red Robbo and the unions caused the demise of British Leyland ? Look at the rail industry today, since privertisation, the employees have never had it better, fantastic wages and great pensions so much better than a publicly owned network.
starmer needs to take stock, report the state everythings in.. and he must leave people in no doubt of the task left by the torries, he then needs to take people along with him, he also needs to stop this ever happening again, a legal maximum political donation, a law of pergary preventing lying in parliament. and electoral reform,, trouble is he will do nothing but take the blame for decades of tory economics,
I think there is money and votes to be made for prisons if it's framed right. Courts are massively backed up for many reasons but the lack of prison space is a factor. If it's framed in the way that rape convictions, etc will be processed faster than I think that would help
David Gauke another Tory that helped dismantle the Uk starting in 2010.
Now we've had a Rory-substitute, I'd be interested in who would sit in for Alistair if needs be?
Irreplaceable. 😊
Problem is every name I think of they already have their own podcast!
One day I will hear a discussion about the Left of the Labour, which is accurately researched around the rise of Jeremy Corbin and the popular sensible, not radical hard left, policies and why the likes of me and many like me, supported Jeremy Corbin.
These pompous centrists have no idea why people are desperate and they’ll be genuinely surprised when the far right capitalises .
but nowhere near enough people in a parliamentary democracy, concerntrated in enough seats, to actually win.
Sorry you are saying jeremy corbyn isn't far left? Even if what you said is true, under FPTP system, it is the centre voters who win elections
not from Bliars right hand man - ironically, corbyn's policies all poll well, but his history being anti eu, leading a pro eu party who ignored their heartland voters opinion gave the media an easy target & led both to brexit & boris 2019
I supported JC too but I think they are right that he is far more in his element as a fighter & campaigner than he would have been as PM.
"Death of an officer.." typical.
What about 'death of an inmate'?!?
As someone who voted for Keir to be leader, I dislike him because he completely mis represented himself to get my vote. Also, he doesn't seem to stand for anything.
Jack Cunningham was from the Northeast, however, he represented Copeland...a Northwest (Cumbria) constituency.
Without serious electoral reform, he will loose support in the South very quickly. The silenced *majority* of voters from the centre leftwards here are sick and tired of their vote meaning nothing.
Anyone who has Margaret Thatcher as there Hero should have to drink their water from Lake Windermere!
What's happening in Ireland? Stuff Catalonia. At the very least you have to have the vote to get proper info from a vote rather than a poll.
Please explain to us what the difference is between a bad, decent and great politician with examples according to your perspectives!!!
Hasn’t the Catalonian issue in Spain been going on longer than the EU has existed.
And why does the podcast not talk about what is going on in Ireland?
Wrong. Starmer was meant to unite the left and the center left. As a socialist I supported Rebecca Long Bailey and Rayner but recognised that Starmer might unite the left and center left like he did in the cabinet but he moved to the Blairite side of the party & not only ditched left wing policies but also sacked left wing councillors for spurious reasons suspended labour MPs in the same manner. And worst of all started siding with Israel, utterly shameful. How hes treated Corbyn and Dianne Abbott is utterly shameful & similar to Boris sacking MPs that opposed him.
And the scary thing is after he does nothing to help people where will they turn after they gave ‘the left’ a chance. That’s the really scary part. The far-right will be waiting for that.
I think the problem is he wants to get elected. And, speaking as a centrist Tory who's probably going to switch, I wouldn't be able to if I thought he was going to pursue radicle economic policies. Angela Reyner is my favourite leading episode these guys have done but I would struggle to vote for her. He either needs to take a lot of centrist votes or a lot of Scotland and he seems to have chosen the first option.
I see what you mean about JC, but not sure you're right.
Jonny Mercer, Plymouth.
I'm Tory Plan Zee. That's why.
Keir Starmer is like ordering steak and chips in curry house. It will be an instant disappointment. Everyone will think, why did I order that? But who cares just as long as your teams in power right? Sad thing is they are all very average, doesn't matter if your posh, poor or in the middle. Not one party has any real vision or any money. Buckle up for a tough ride!!!
As a left-wing labour party member who didn't vote for Starmer anyway, I can give a comment on why I didn't vote for him then, and why I don't like him now. I didn't like him then because I thought he was massively overrated as a politician. I still do, but I think he gets such an easy ride from the media that the benefits of that completely outweigh this problem (while he is in opposition at least). I think Alastair is bang on when he says that Starmer's war with the left of his party played into his hands with the media class/public, but I disagree with his dismissal of internal labour party dynamics. Actually, in a two-party system, the dynamics and democratic processes within a party is very important, as it's the only mechanism through which pluralism really manifests in a first-past-the-post system, and Keir Starmer has been a huge let-down in this regard. He has stamped out left-wingers comprehensively, and made it clear that it's his way or no whip in the PLP. Blair didn't do that. He is stuck now, and has to keep on crushing left-wing while supplicating to the right, or else the media will flip on him and then it's game over, because I don't think he has it in him to be a competent leader in a hostile media environment. Hopefully he makes way for someone competent like Lisa Nandy in this situation.
Maybe there should be a far left party, a centre party and a far right party😂
It's just an opinion
Best episode for a long time, as an economist, a lefty, and a bunny hugger (I do have other pigeon holes you can chuck me into but they are my main ones) I much prefer David Gaukes honesty to Rorys' faux everyman. Rory is little more than an imperialist full of barely hidden class atitudes. Rory will always defend his class above all else. Rorys broad church will always provide cover for the racists. Something I'm afraid I cannot forgive.
Does Rory pretend to be an everyman though? I've gotten the impression that he presents himself more or less as he is, without any of the populist "man of the people" nonsense that so many of the right have gone in for.
Ah I see another masochist who listens to a red centrist liberal talk to a blue centrist liberal. I spend most of my time yelling at them that they are utterly missing the point through my earphones.
I guess you do not follow this podcast if you think "Rory always defends his class"
Oh these dudes aren’t biased at all
They don’t claim to be unbiased. Instead, they are up front about their biases….
Biased how? It's their podcast and they are having a conversation about their opinions
The answer is ver very quickly.
Few people are excited about Starmer, instead, they're obsessed with getting the tories out.
It's the tony blair situation all over again. And look how that turned out 😢
However, Blair had a positive popularity rating prior to winning the election, but Starmer is already unpopular, it's just that the Tories are even more unpopular
The Blairs govts did a lot of great things. I wish Starmer would do half of what Blair achieved in the UK
@FireflyOnTheMoon note. You didn't mention any of the "list of great things." Why am I not surprised?
Enjoy the podcast generally but found the discussion on the lefts’ rejection of Starmer quite reductive. 25:19 As a young person on the left now Starmer I think has made people like myself feel politically homeless. I see a politician deprioritise environment, workers rights, international law, offer nothing to renters and is absolutely spineless when it comes to the rights of trans people in this country.
I’m forever waiting for the slightest crumb of Labour policy that might make a difference for people under 30 in this country and am met with spineless caving on every moderately radical bit of policy that he might have pledged to the week before.
For you two to sit there and say leftists are obsessed with feeling betrayed/ not interested in politics outside of the Labour Party is simply not true.
It’s just that Labour in its current form offers nothing for people like myself and the idea that I should vote for them simply on account of them not being the tories is insulting and I hope they are punished for it.
This came out a lot angrier that intended. 😂 as I say the podcast is great and very informative generally but that particular part of the podcast just felt a little short-sighted from both sides.
U.S. has 355 in prison per 100K. Why no mention of that statistic?
Becuae it doesn't have much bearing on the Uk situation
Ken Clarke was very anti-trades unions
If you really think “hau ab” means “f… off”, how would you say “get lost” in German, Alastair?
it's the same meaning in English
Literally switched off st the sport talk
💯. I'm sure there's a 'The Rest is Football' podcast where they can waffle on to their hearts' content without subjecting us to it.
😡 I honestly don’t get it - this is supposed to be a progressive, centrist and compassionate podcast - bringing ‘adult’ debate on the key issues of the day - YET you have people like DK - greatly admired by RS - who names Thatcher as a political hero - party politics to one side - how can any educated and balanced person conclude Thatcher is a hero - fine we can give her some credit on being a ‘strong leader’ for what it is worth - it beyond this much of the damage she wrecked on this country is surely beyond any reasonable doubt
She supported the retention of Capital Punishment
She destroyed Britain’s manufacturing industry and her policies led to mass unemployment
She presided over interest rates of 15%
She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
She abolished free milk for School Children
She precipitated a Social Housing crisis still being felt today
The Poll Tax
She sowed the seeds of NHS Privatisation
Section 28 - Thatchers quiet homophobia?
The Irish Hunger Strikes
Position on apartheid sanctions
"Let's talk about football..."
For the love of God, let's not. There's acres of football coverage on every other form of media, let's try keeping this politics podcast about politics, can we, please?
Turn? They don’t like him now
Come on AC, don't misuse "begs the question" like that.
Bring back Rory 😊
he was alway for a week
Sorry but you and David offer a better contrast
It would be more interesting if Campbell were more vocally disagreeing with him since as you, I think are pointing out Mr Gauck is clearly much more right wing than Stewart is.
TWO MUGS ALISTAIR???
Click bait question which is day onefor many, for others first month of which part of the spectrum they are, it is about power and Kier end off subject.
Because the data show that New Lab (as will Starmer) made the poor poorer (Rowntree Foundation - working poverty data), thus the nihilism endemic in the UK is from those abandoned by New Labour which is what is responsible for our inexorable slide into Fascism.
To be fair he is actually promising to do nothing. But given his record of lying you can’t blame people for not believing this either. I’d say about 5 minutes.
fuck this is a really terrible podcast without Rory.
Few, if any, will be voting for Starmer. Let's hope we are all wrong, but he appears to be totally uninspiring.
The UK has become a much more dangerous place over the past 20-30 years and you all know why but won't say it. We need more prisons not less and the levels of people on remand are high because of the risk these people pose to the public. With regards to Labour... the moneymoon period will last no more than a year. It won't make nearly as much difference as people suspect and the people who flip-flop between parties will soon get tired with them too. The election is going to be about Tories out.
What a hooray Henry.
You are judging people on accent?
The point is that his accent is contrived. It's neither regional nor foreign.
I do think you’re off the mark a bit by just saying that the labour left “don’t want to be in power” - they want their vision to be carried out because they think that that’s the best way to solve issues that we have within this country. Corbyn was certainly prepared to lead the country given the chance, and I wouldn’t dismiss the internal strife against him from the Labour right, Corbyn made some quite substantial concessions to them in an effort to maintain a broad church, which I find is often forgotten about. As to why they often critique Starmer more, partially because they feel betrayed, partially because they think that a lot of the policies he wants to implement won’t be very effective as they don’t go far enough, or are plain old wrong, and partially because it’s far easier to attempt to lobby someone who is nominally on the same “side” as you than someone on the other “side”.
25:39 this is such an interesting segment mostly for what it shows David is mistaken on, but also that was very revealing. Corbyn a major fault is that he doesn’t “want to sieze the reins of power” , but not for the reason David thinks, because he fears holding the reins, but because he is ideologically uncomfortable with “seizing” them Corbyn was always a compromised that’s how he’s survived 40years in the Labour Party, and been a part of so many small bills over the year, and got such a personal local constituency following. Corbyn, who you can attack from many angle often correctly, isn’t opposed to him exercising power, so much as he hates to take sole control, he is always looking to find consensus, understanding he is on the leftmost 25% of the party votership. That’s why he was so easy to undermine.
Tldr it’s a correct observation, but the wrong diagnosis
I think your justification for why the Labour left hates Starmer more than Sunak is a way of justifying maintaining the status quo and your own moral and ethical decision making. By pretending that 'our way is the onlyt way' means you don't have to engage in braver policy making that might actually change things for the better. I don't know anyone on the left who wouldn't want power, but if getting into power means managed decline over varying timescales dependent on which version of neo-liberalism wins might not be the choice some people want to make. I think Labour particularly needs to be careful as you are losing people on the left, not the far left and at some point that is going to be a problem.