Mustafa Suleyman & Yuval Noah Harari -FULL DEBATE- What does the AI revolution mean for our future?
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- čas přidán 16. 09. 2023
- How will AI impact our immediate and near future? Can the technology be controlled, and does it have agency? Watch DeepMind co-founder Mustafa Suleyman and Yuval Noah Harari debate these questions, with The Economist Editor-in-Chief Zanny Minton-Beddoes.
Filmed on 11 September 2023 in London, in collaboration with The Economist.
To read the transcript, head to: econ.st/3EGURGR
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Yuval Noah Harari is a historian, philosopher, and the bestselling author of 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind' (2014), 'Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow' (2016), '21 Lessons for the 21st Century' (2018), the graphic novel series ‘Sapiens: A Graphic History’ (launched in 2020, co-authored with David Vandermeulen and Daniel Casanave), and the children’s series ‘Unstoppable Us’, (launched 2022).
Yuval Noah Harari and his husband, Itzik Yahav, are the co-founders of Sapienship: a social impact company specializing in content and production, with projects in the fields of education and entertainment. Sapienship’s main goal is to focus the public conversation on the most important global challenges facing the world today.
Learn more about Sapienship: www.sapienship.co/
Yuval Noah Harari speaks internationally and teaches at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. On this channel you can see his interviews, lectures, and public conversations with prominent leaders and influencers, - including Mark Zuckerberg, Natalie Portman, Christine Lagarde, Chancellor Kurz of Austria, Jay Shetty, and Russell Brand.
This is a debate. No vile language, no hate, a lot of respect, and a wealth of knowledge.
Not a debate, it is a discussion.
@@maxfun6797not a discussion, it is a conversation.
I am not sure about the "wealth of knowledge". They just kept taking about the same thing over and over.
A bit like the Daily Wire Exodus conversation on You Tube at present...and that's between 10 thinkers from diverse traditions. There is hope!
@@nft_responsiblynot a conversation, a competiton of predictions.
I've spent the past 2 decades in the IT and fintech sectors, I frequently use LLMs and Transformers at a Fortune 100 company. My concern with this discussion is that Yuval appears to be the only one grounded with the consequences of economic disruptions and fallout from AI advancements. Those who are financially secure often lack genuine concern and can't or won't empathize, even when engaged in such dialogues. We should focus on taking action to safeguard humanity's well-being rather than waiting for a crisis to validate Yuval's warnings.
Agreed. Interesting debate but the Moustoufa seems to work from a position of logical government actors working together. That is not the world we live in.
Exactly.... dos contra 1 fellling secure because of
Their status ( moustafa and gooldy lucks) ... we have to think and Focus on the worlds.- human comunity and erase out own human ego of.beeing superpowerfull
is it too late? now that the financial sector sees the possibilities...
absolutely agree with you... Yuval Noah Harari was the winner... humans = 1 , AI = 0
Couldn't agree more.
AI based disasters are clearly going to be a question of when, not if.
Great point made by Yuval at 40:25 when he uses the example of an educated financial elite who developed CDOs that created wealth for a few but put millions at risk. AI could indeed present a similar threat because few if anyone would understand how AI financial models work.
Yuval Harari has openly spoken about his contempt for “the millions.” He serves the WEF, the most elite and contemptuous (of ordinary people) organization in the world. They serve themselves and Harari works for them. I would not trust anything he says about helping the “millions.”
One word: hubris. I’m with Yuval. Privately owned AI is frightening because entrepreneurs have proven many times over they are willing to hurt their customers for profit. The development of AI should be a public good fully regulated and administered by strict democratic processes.
I concur. And I'd add that the public needs to be better educated regarding the nature of AI: its benefits and drawbacks. Less informed people make bad decisions that can stymie the progress of artificial intelligence or any beneficial technology.
Beautifully put! HUBRIS. Love it when someone else says that word!
You trust governments and bureaucrats not to use this immense technology in a deleterious manner? I totally agree this technology must be highly regulated, however I’m no more trusting of public sector bureaucrats than I am of private companies. Maybe a adversarial combination of both might be a potential best option.
ABSOLUTEY TRUE@@AL_THOMAS_777
Well said. I think privately owned AI is more dangerous for human being and it needs to be controlled.
"we invest so much in developing AI" "Our own minds also have a huge scope for development. Also as humanity we haven't seen our full potentiality yet, and if we invest, for every dollar and minute that we invest in AI, we invest another dollar and minute developing our own consciousness and mind I think we would be okey, but I don't see this happening. I don't see this kind of investment in human beings that we are seeing in machines" - Yuval Noah Harari / I agree with Yuval, Thank you for very interesting debate.
Yes Cecilia ! We as humans have to constantly UPGRADE ourselves ! I tried to do that and it hasn´t been easy all of the time. But very VERY rewarding "in the end" !
Indeed. I would go further and say that not only are we simply not investing in the quality and development of our minds, we are outright poisoning ourselves.
Misunderstanding the potential of technology has always left people behind. There are already tools built with AI that extend, tender too, and help solve human problems whereas previously these human oriented services are only available for the privileged, moneyed upperclass. Providing a technological scalable solution can help people everywhere, when done right. If you can’t imagine it, I can and have worked across similar industries, and the access to data has only helped people, You’re missing the big picture, this could resolve famine, help define new physics, tackle deep genome, energy issues, climate/pollution and complex biodiversity at all scales, as well as space and other related issues. I hope people get educated on this, the future needs well educated people to vote and help voice opinions. AI is only as smart as the info we feed it, and if you haven’t noticed, humans are loosing any control they once thought they had.
Nope, human intelligence is extremely limited compared to what's possible for machines. We developed our intelligence due to random mutations over millions of years, an extremely inefficient process. AI can change it's wiring instantly, it's just swapping numbers.
i see the west pulling away from the rest of the world and a tec battle between us and asia
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🧐 Introduction to the AI Debate
02:04 🤖 The Future of AI in 2028
06:01 🌍 The Profound Shift in Human History
07:48 🌟 The Positive Potential of AI
12:24 💼 Job Disruption and Global Impact
17:47 🗳️ AI's Threat to Political Systems
22:14 🤖 Concerns about technology's impact on conversation and trust
23:35 🛡️ Short-term impact of AI on elections and politics
24:17 💼 Challenges facing nation-states in AI regulation
25:11 🚧 Self-organizing initiatives and precautionary principles
26:24 📊 Balancing benefits and risks in AI development
27:04 🔐 Mustafa Suleyman's 10-point plan for AI safety
29:13 🌐 Creating new institutions for AI oversight
30:50 🏁 Challenges of containing AI proliferation
33:09 🌍 Geopolitical tensions and AI containment
37:22 🌟 The unpredictability of AI development
Made with HARPA AI
Lovely
33:40 You forgot the Alien invasion. 👽 This A.I. is not very smart I think. 😅
Bro I didn't even know it commented this lmao@@blessedone_77
Or maybe it is…
@@musashi4856 😅👍
i have just started watching this and let me commend the interviewer. She's quick, she's clear, to the point and doesnt talk or gesture unnecessarily. I'm sure this is going to be exciting to hear.
🥳😅😅 de
And she’s an economist… 😎
If there is only one thing I did not like much was her tendency to interrupt Yuval Noah Harari when he wanted to comment on what Mustafa Suleyman had just said. She did not do that when Mustafa Suleyman spoke. Her interruptions at times and body language gave me the impression she was leaning towards Mr. Suleyman's opinion. Having said that, I understand moderating a debate is complex and there was a script she wanted to follow. And what I am expressing is just my opinion, not a matter of fact. Still, a great discussion, with three perspectives: that of a historian, that of a tech insider, and that of an economist. Very complete indeed.
She seems like a shill for the rich and an airhead... in my verrrry humble opinion. lol
She laughed at the 2008 financial crisis. She laughed when Yuval said AI was like an alien invasion. So she lacks imagination and historical perspective. And, yes, she constantly interrupted Yuval. And her questions were long, repetitive, and boring.
More than ever before unity amongst humans is crucial.
We're moving into a completely different age where the concern of the ego shifts to the greater good, so understanding that everyone is unique and important, we move to operate Globally, connecting galacticaly, wealrh therefore will be distributed, and we humans will shift from existing to thriving, no longer needing the 9-5 jobs, but happily contributing our uniqness to the global family volunterily doing what we love doing most and the machines will allow us to live like the gods that we are! We must look into the future like 200 years from now or more 1000 years from now, eternally even.
What values am i making right now to better my future and the future of my global family! Thats a life worth living for, it takes responsibility on our part to live with dignity and respect the law of cause and effect as any word thought and actions have an effect on our lives.
Love this conversation, thank you for sharing
Fantastic conversation. Save this video and watch it again in 5 years. Let's see if we think it's as insightful and informative as we do now.
That's how I think about a lot of playlists I make of things I'm researching around this and other subjects. They're like time capsules to look back on in the future.
you wont be able to find this video in 5 yars (deleted by AI :p)
@@dR3n5ky well, yeah
@@user-yv6xw7ns3oI do the same thing xD been doing it since 2012.😊
THANK you Economist for making this public available!
Finally some really smart conversation and commentry on AI.
There’s actually A LOT of intelligent conversation around this topic he’s not the only one crying out.
Economist didn't make this public... thanks to Yuval🙏
@@debbiehughes48 Maybe Debbie, but he is the most influential one !
And thank you Mr. @YualNoahHarari for sharing.
Idio.......
I appreciate the interviewers willingness to let Harari finish his final statement, I just wish he was given more time to speak freely
Personal bias, I've just finished Sapiens, therefore Yuval's insight is a hot topic for me,. However, Hot Topic is on my list
Yuval Noah's last comment is noteworthy.
The historical gospel of the industrialized world is profit
maximization at all costs.
Yuval Noah remarked that we as a society must invest
the same amount that we invest in the development
of the new entities, the AI, in the development of our
own consciousness and mind.
The fact that this is not happening clearly shows
us the self-destructive power contained in the explosion
in the number of human individuals.
Agree this lies at the heart of the issue. Are we to be motivated by profit or are we to allow our consciousness and minds to care about the implications of AGI models on the welfare of humanity?
Assuming it all goes very well,
how do we convince humans to cut back on reproduction and being possessed by generational wealth? Up until now, we all want to eat drink and make more humans. All while working at jobs we tolerate just to get to happy hour somewhere. That's most of the civilized world. And AI is going to change us ? Make us better? Nah.
Yuval: don't eat that apple.
Suleyman: but, it's so red and we are so hungry😢
....story doesn't repeat it self, but it rhymes.
I totally agree with Yuval .... Yuval has been warning people on the dangers of this technology for many years now ... ...this is the most dangerous technology which mankind has ever created ...
Most people don't understand the existential risks because it is 30 years away. When they hear "30 yrs away," they assume that is far away. They don't understand that the risk from ASI (Artificial Super-Intelligence) is severe & catastrophic -- and that we need at least 30 years to contain it sufficiently. Which means we/govt's must begin taking action today, to prevent this catastrophe.
The Elites are Satanist, so how many sacrifices they do to put demon intelligence into A. I. And don’t think this is rubbish what I say. It is smarter, than us, but evil, it’s either Satan or GOD. And it’s not GOD. They are working with humans now cutting out half of the brain and putting a machine to replace it. Why in Yellow stone park America and other places, people are finding bodies with no heads. I tell you it’s pure evil and it will be too late if we don’t make a LAW of rights for humans to always be in control of these bio-bot synthetic human like robots.
What do guys think Y.Harari’s main argument was here?
@@akin4255Yuval is deeply concerned about avoiding the potential dangers this technology could bring. He points out that this technology, unlike any technology in history, will be capable of making its own decisions.
A special discussion between two different discipline intellectual with amazing respect and exemplary debate, Thank you all.
Mustafa is like the guy out of Thank You For Smoking - never bats an eye, never gets defensive, on the front foot with an answer for everything - Smoking is great :) and his ten point plan on what not to do is exactly what they are going to do
That's an adroit reference. I am with him. Smoke up.
Mustafa's presentation disappointed. I appreciate his suggestions of limits & roles for companies, governments/regulators, & researchers to try to contain risks. However he punted short, and at the end ignored serious risks he acknowledged will arise, in his estimate in 30+ yrs. Both agreed AI cannot be contained, so eventually it will become recursively self-improving & autonomous (becoming ASI), posing existential risks to humanity. Mustafa is unconcerned of or doesn't understand the severity of risks. Yuval rightly sees looming catastrophe.
Thank you to The Economist, Dr. Harari, and Dr. Suleyman for this important, enlightening discussion.
Mustafa is clearly on a mission to scam clueless investors. Why would he care about anything else other than what brings money?
I'm right around the 24 minute mark into the video, and Harari discusses an interesting phenomenon, which is that our democracy seems to be in danger of collapsing because of the breakdown of the conversation between the people of the Country. He mentions that we can't even all agree who won the last election. My perception is that this phenomenon is occurring because of the incredible splintering of News. People get their news from more and more diverse sources, from CZcams, to Instagram, etc. etc. This allows for more and more isolating echo chambers, where ideas churn between like-minded folks across the globe. Everyone has their own specific menu of news, and thus, a completely different idea of what's actually happening. I also think that media literacy is an increasingly important subject -- because knowing what actually makes a news source reputable seems like less than an afterthought for many folks... and that doesn't help. With respect to AI, I can see ways that it can help and ways that it could hinder that process.
PP😅😅😅
If i was president, I’d ban any click bait strategy, id have an incredibly strict policy on information, it would need to be as close as reality as possible, I’d ban opinions passed as news, misinformation would be enemy n°1, wether it comes from news, government, or social media, click bait / misdirection / misinformation would have heavy consequences. I’d put heavy sanctions such as jail time. Information is the biggest weapon on earth right now, information is the most powerful tool right now, to improve humanity, the first thing to do is giving people the right direction, giving people the right information.
@@MrErick1160 I honestly think you'd have better luck by incorporating high quality media literacy training into the population. But certainly it should be a crime to produce deep-fake fake-news with the intent to misinform others. As comedy or satire OR clearly labelled, it should be allowed, I think, but if it can reasonably fool an ordinary citizen it should be a criminal offense. The specifics there would definitely need to be discussed and debated, of course. But you are so right that info is a huge weapon right now, and it's so easy to just SAY anything these days and have someone believe it. Throwing in deep-faking of reasonable news sources and it's scary to think of how many people can be fooled and manipulated.
Okay but can we at least agree that it's unacceptable for an election to take 7 days to count mail-in ballots that aren't even supposed to be a thing on that scale? Not every election will be marred by COVID related problems.
Funny thing is, the US itself has a list of "problematic" occurrences to look out for when assessing whether African elections are "free & fair" - EVERY SINGLE 'INDICATOR' listed as a cause for concern that an African election was run un-democratically occured in the US in 2020 , and not just one or two states, but almost every single swing state!
You have to count the same night no matter how close the race is. Even more so when the race is that close, I would say. Its unheard of to me as a Canadian for vote counters to be sent home to sleep and start counting again in the morning - but then somehow after the news announces they've gone home - it turns out they came back and just counted without anyone knowing. ABC News announced they went home, not FOX or Infowars.
Why was such an appearance of impropriety even allowed when we know how polarizing and close the election is going to be??
It's asking for trouble. It was honestly run as if the only intention was to LOOK as borderline illegitimate to the people who lost as p9ssible without being outright uncertifiable. All you do when you run an election like that is incite distrust, possibly incite violence if the losing side is angry enough to do something like riot about it.
I'm not saying one person won or the other. Or that Biden is illegitimate or anything like that.
I'm not even American.
But that was a once in a lifetime problem (to have widespread mail-in ballots because of a pandemic). It should NEVER happen again.
PERSONALLY if it was MY country: I wouldn't have protested to demand Trump be the winner, I would have protested to demand the WHOLE election be nullified due to APPEARANCE of impropriety, and re-run every single state. Regardless of cost. And the day of the re-run should have been declared a holiday so people don't have to make work arrangements and it's as convenient as possible, but NO mail in ballots on a scale like that ever again. Mail ballots are only acceptable if the number of people voting from a distance is LESS than the margin between the contestants that could flip the election's result. Usually the margin is high and the number of peoppe voting by mail is low. 2020 was the exact opposite.
Vote by mail is meant for people living abroad, people in military, etc. Usually less than 1% of total votes are thia type. We have to be sure that EVEN IF every single mail-in ballot IS fake (in a theoretical scenario), there wouldn't be enough ppl voting by that method such that it could flip a seat.
That wasn't the case in 2020.
It's unacceptable and anti-democratic..
The diverse sources of information is a good thing.
She is asking very good questions👍
Another interview where they just don't get Yuval. I remember reading his Homo Deus and thinking he is thinking too much into it. But today, they are all 100% true. I am in the AI field and Yuval is actually more right than even he realise
I don’t think it is so. Maybe it’s the other way around? Optimism vs pessimism.. and we have no way of knowing right now…
I saw this and for a good week I lost the will to live.
@@TMK1450The danger is that once we have a way of knowing, we may be all dead. This is uncharted waters, and I think we should be extremely cautious.
Thanks a million for uploading this 🙏 I was about to get a paid subscription for The Economist just to see this.
I’m a simple man, I see a new video with Prof Harari, I click and watch till the end no matter what I’m doing
This is the way
I am a deep ADDICT of Harari's talks,and all his books,since 8yrs
Always stimulate thinking, question everything. Thats my take
I think it's time to retire the "I'm a simple man..." comment. It was not amusing the first few hundred times, and it's even less so now.
@@radhanarendra7307 Dopamine? Too much or the nice delirious amounts?
I'm quite pesimistic about we handling this revolution responsibly. We are incredibly short-sighted regarding the consequences of our technological breakthroughs. As Harari concluded, I think we would get closer to wellbeing and vitality if we would invest the same time and energy invested on AI on our own self-exploration. This is a very different mindset from our dominance-over-nature approach. I don't see this surpasing the interest in AI and its promises. Very interesting discussion! 🎉
Large language models are a mathematical representation of human speech. I see this similar to calculus being a mathematical representation of motion. We didn't change physics because we can make a mathematical representation of it. We just found ways to use physics for good and bad. I see no difference in our abilities to model human speech. Some people will use AI for good and some will use it for evil. But don't blame the AI for what humans do with it.
Self exploration is for nerds!
It’s also about human incentives that drive the development of the AI‘s… and so different motivations=> good/bad…
A dangerous mind set as they are dealing with UFO creatures👽 that’s why the government hides these UFOs. They are working with demons as I see it and it’s demon intelligence not human. So suppression here we come. It plain and simple, SUBJUGATION!
@@haroldpierre1726The problem is that, as Yuval says, they are developing GPT 5 which can actually do stuff, use APIs, plan, do tasks, etc. You’re looking at the current generation of AI which will be surpassed in a couple of years. The problem is of agency. There’s a potential for agency in AI. I’m not sure if you even watched the video before commenting your thoughts.
at 41:00 Yuval talks about an economic scenario and she just brushed it away. Something that has had such deep repercussions across the globe 😢.
Yeah people think these things are fanciful, so they’re casually dismissive. I think if they contemplated the significance of an alien intelligence more they’d be much more afraid. I think viewing these as aliens instead of tools is more appropriate.
39:40 Yuval is absolutely right and their laughter is only meant to disarm the audience from the subtle terror Yuval evokes here. This is the biggest line in the entire conversation.
The nice thing about this is it’s not one thing! But the race to the bottom is a reality outcome …
I like him, but the example was quite bad, he is not an economist.
The problem was as always bad oversight. And that problem applied to so many cases in finances, there is some high stakes case every other year where oversight just failed.
Madoff, Theranos, Wirecard, This Crypto Thing, Everything Elon Musk tweets(xses?) about.
If anything, then AI can actually help finding and closing those gaps before people start abusing them.
And if AI finds an honest way to make more money in the financial markets, it's good for everybody because it means resources get distributed more useful.
Yes it a shame they skipped quickly past it. However, the possibilities with our future are so wide at the moment. In 20 years time we may have nuclear fusion delivering super low cost energy, robots doing nearly all tasks (manual and mental), humans living indefinitely, we may move past money as a good system entirely… if no one works then society would need to be reinvented, how that happens is a real mystery.
@@user-dq7vo6dy7g Oversight by definition lays at the hand of governance which both speakers have already ceded as impotent and ignorant. There will be no oversight of AI. There will be no miracle of self-governance amongst independent actors.
I simply see Yuval the kindest person on the earth 🌍
The guy literally wants to depopulate the planet.
@@HappyDays66666 Maybe but the death of homo NON sapiens will come soon anyway . . .-> "Who does not cherish life has not deserved life !" (intelligent person)
@@HappyDays66666 yes,it's scary to read all positive comments here
@@petrakamilica5141all the glowing comments about how “amazing” and “incredible” have an air of inauthenticity- they seem fake
@ soulfulmusic1386
Go get a new set of eyeglasses.
What Mr. Mustafa doesn't seem to grasp is that if you have on your phone the capability of having "people" such as a staff chief, then you don't need anyone at all. You don't need staff. You don't need managers. You don't need CEO's. Creating AI that can do the jobs of people, will unsurprisingly lead to people not being needed at all. It's fantasy that AI will only be used to replace X or Y. If it works, it'll replace everybody.
Whether that's good or bad that will remain to be seen. But it's odd that someone in his position talks about it as if you can have AI that are entire departments, but somehow people will still be involved this process.
The race is ON:
In line number one we have members of the "Eat The Rich - Poor Worker's Party",
line number two we have "It will all be great again, and YES I'm paid by oligarchs to parrot out that statement",
line three "The Skeptical Experts - we may have to modify Capitalism...",
line four "The Scientists - Sorry Plutocrats, we can't get you out of this mess, Mars migration is still a few years off",
line five "The Revolutionaries - Anarhisam, horizontal society, equal distribution of wealth, power and assets",
line six "The Opportunists - We need more money for healthcare or education, or Big Pharma, or Oil, let me see who am I representing today, is today Friday?",
line seven "The Tech Companies - No app can fix this amount of inequality, you dudes took EVERYTHING",
line eight "The Passive Observers - It's the end of the world as we know it... Popcorn anyone?".
Given to the fact that humanity has not as yet understood himself well enough to abandoned his mischievous, egocentric behaviour, he will use the new technologies to advance the same traits.
NOT if the MOB is abolished - and the wise prevail - which will soon be done . . .
I think that more care could have been taken to conceal the predetermination of this interview. Yuval handled being the third wheel with a great deal of tact.
Indeed such a respectful conversation. Many years of meditation made me understand that intelligence and wisdom are not the same. Let's hope that it is wisdom that makes this transition happen. So we can evolve towards a loving species that helps and supports each other.
Picking up on your fundamental point, which is very appropriate, I personally felt that this was a somewhat panicky general chat. Too little to zero attention given to the possibility that non human actors might play an active role in human culture and to the questions that arise e.g. what how would this activity actually come about - what does it mean for inanimate agents to act independently of humans? Disappointing, too, that wider perspectives were not engaged. It was almost embarrassing the extent to which the debate reflected the anxieties of the comfortable and the well off and lacked concern on a general political level. Overall, it didn't shed much light.
Impossible when poverty is on the rise in the West and elsewhere. Hungry people don't act responsibility. A fairer economic system would help enormously. Meditation won't work for hungry, homeless, bankrupt people.
I understand your response Marian. It is a pity you cannot see how ANY change comes from within (our Self). For instance, Gandhi changed India through introspection meditation guided by the Bhagavat Gita.
@@monsterkonijnI can't see how that change will come in the West. The only virtue truly deeply worshipped in the West is ongoing, relentless greed. The 'I have a right to take all the resources, money, land, assets etc because I'm a billionaire and f everyone else'. It's the primal virtue of the West. Of course we pretend otherwise.
@@marianhunt8899 I think I am probably coming from a similar perspective, I don't recall the talk in detail but it did seem "self-serving" and unconnected with the potential of these developments to actually help millions.
Mustafa demonstrates "ordinary world" (normalcy bias) like crazy. That right now is the "new normal". This is... an alarming level of cognitive dissonance for someone who I otherwise appreciate and admire. His ultimate answer is "just don't do the thing" but that's not an answer.
I wish more people could see that.
We as individuals usually think like him, how to maximize my profit. It's the function of government to regulate it so that it benefits all. We the people have to take back the government from big money. Then it will do its job.
Swept off my feet by not just the two brilliant experts but also the The Economist's Editor-in-Chief!! Breathtakingly smart moderation by the lady!
Yes I love her. So bright and let them speak even though she kind of wanted to focus on the pros of AI.
This is such a great discussion and the interviewer did such a perfect job. Well done!
Superb interviewer and two brilliant individuals to interview! Thank you for this interesting, thought provoking podcast. Invaluable!
Three the the lady ask good questions.
hi
World-class, all three of them. This is what a conversation should look like.
The first answer from suleyman is one of the most terryfing things ai have ever heard in my entire life hahaha and he say this so chill. Yeah the AI will plan long term goals, will be able to call people and NEGOTIATE with them. Man thats scary, how cant they see it?
Already happens with conversational ai
I think they think it’ll be like an errand boy instead of a dominate godlike life form. They build these things, and I think it leaves them feeling some sort of control over them.
A well organized and important debate. Thank you The Economist for offering these views.
Discussion; it is not a debate.
. . . dont be a sophist man . . . @@maxfun6797
I think their views actually complement each other very well. The discussion as a whole gives useful insights and suggestions how to proceed with the AI revolution.
Great and important debate. What happens when we come to believe that AI is better at solving problems than us? We become helpless and dependent and lose our imagination. This is when human history stops.
... AND begins, a-again ...
When I wake up and realize that all the wealth of the world is in 1% of the people I also realize that this Is a goal that has been achieved on purpose. It is not an accident. We have a climate crisis that is devastating populations around the globe, health care is unaffordable in this country, most people are one paycheck away from poverty, college debt is crushing our younger generations in ways most of us don’t understand and when the economy falters the way of correction is on the poorest populations. So why would I think that the development of AI would help the 99%? Everything is calculated to have us support the rich getting richer. Humans place greed and power above the well-being of most people. Do you think this will not follow suit in the through the next 50 years???
My granpa, a peasant lived well... ok , no trips to europe often but no angst either about the future. People would value life and trust. I travel a lot, but worrying about the future and angst are always there. Civilization was supposed to make me feel the way my granpa felt...to relieve was its purpose. Snif.
There's no climate crisis, Earth also goes through its cycles, just like humans.
OP, has the internet helped you? Middle class families in the US, Australia , etc used to pay hundreds of dollars for when they bought their encyclopaedia collection. Now that information and so, so much more is available on Wikipedia for free to all of humanity that have an internet connection to Wikipedia. The internet gives access to Khan Academy, a free world class education available to everyone in many subjects from kindergarten to university level. And sites like Khan Academy are using AI to support free AI expert tutors to give every kid the chance to have an after-school tutor. So much of these AI services are things you already use. Every search engine is already using AI to enhance the personalisation of the results to better match your request. Soon there will be free personal assistants that help remind us of critical stuff like taking meds on time or getting to appointments on time or reminding us our car park is about to expire. These things can help our health and save us money. What has all that got to do with some abstract idea that there are people even better off than us? If you compare what we can achieve today with AI it is much more action and agency than in the past without AI.
The wealth and power rises to the top in Communist and capitalist forms of govt alike.
One word about this balanced interview: FANTASTIC! 🏆
What do guys think Y.Harari’s main argument was here?
This is beautiful and refreshing. Two highly intelligent and insightful people with a common goal of truly bettering humanity and the environment
Actually three!
FINALLY YOU POSTED A NEW VIDEO IM OBSSESSED
The most important conversation to have today, discussed by the intelligent people here. Very illuminating.
It’s a nice interview but this has all been said thousands of times before. It shows how we humans like to push the boundaries of tech, talk about all the issues, but make very little progress on solving those issues.
A respectful, energized, complex discussion/debate. How wonderful!!! There are smart people on the planet to operate in problem-solving mode - not vitriol, accusation, condemnation, or gross narcissistic self-interest. Hooray! We need to celebrate them. They are the future we want to build. These three are part of that group! Kudos!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎵 Introduction and Background
- Introduction of Yuval Noah Harari and Mustafa Suleiman.
- Purpose of the discussion and their differing backgrounds.
02:04 💡 AI Advancements and Predictions
- Mustafa's perspective on AI advancements over the last decade.
- Predictions for the next five years, including AI's planning abilities.
05:04 🧐 Concerns and Positive Potential
- Yuval's concerns about the end of human history.
- Acknowledgment of AI's positive potential.
07:48 💼 Upsides of AI: Enhancing Humans
- Discussion on the positive potential of AI, including enhancing human capabilities.
- Idea of personal intelligence assistants.
12:52 🌐 Risk to Jobs and Transition
- Impact of AI on jobs and the job market.
- Concerns about the transition period.
17:47 🏛️ AI's Challenge to Democracy
- Discussion on how AI may challenge liberal democracy.
- Concerns about trust and impersonation online.
21:05 🔒 Ensuring Trust and Preventing Impersonation
- Debate on preserving trust in online conversations.
- The need to regulate and prevent bot impersonation.
22:40 🌐 Political Trust and Technology
- Decline in political trust leading to communication breakdown.
- Challenges in effective communication.
24:04 🌏 Challenges for Nation-States
- Pressure on nation-states due to lack of trust and polarization.
- Private companies advancing AI capabilities.
25:26 🏛️ Self-Regulation and Precaution
- Companies self-organizing for AI oversight.
- Balancing benefits and harms with caution.
27:04 📝 Mustafa's 10-Point Plan
- Mustafa's 10-point plan to capture AI gains while minimizing risks.
29:13 💡 Unpredictable AI Development
- AI development leading to unanticipated consequences.
- Need for adaptable institutions to handle AI's evolution.
35:03 🔒 Containment Challenges
- Challenges in containing AI due to its complexity.
- Importance of new adaptable institutions.
39:41 💰 AI in Financial Systems
- AI's role in financial systems and the need for governance.
43:37 🤝 Coalition of the Willing
- Creating agreements and regulations to protect societies from AI risks.
Made with HARPA AI
It's always amazing to listen to great minds. Thank you.
I don't think these fine gentlemen disagree with each other when it comes down to it, really, but it wouldn't be much of a debate if they both went "damn you're right" everytime the other made a valid point. they're just coming from different angles. The upsides are real, the dangers are equally real (and its important we avoid or minimise those)
I think they disagree on seeing AI as aliens vs tools which is actually pretty significant, but yes, they definitely both are calling for caution which is good.
Thank you Dr Harari❤
This conversation is far far better than any other debate about the Alien Intelligence .....out there in the internet ....
Yual has put the Genuine questions ...
Yuval’s insights are spot on. 🙏🏼 Let’s check back in 5 years if we’re still here.
Real people probably won't ever coma back here.. this place is doomed.
This interview is so amazingly interesting ! What a great conversation and debate ! Worth to watch it even more than once.
That was a troubling last comment. "I don't see that kind of investment in human beings as we see in the machines." 🙄
Excellent intervew: BIG THANKS to The Economist. please make more! Hugs from Brasil
TLDW:
"uh...we need to be very careful here, 'cuz this could escalate quickly." - obvious guy.
"well yeah, but AI is inevitable, soooo....meh." - guy selling AI.
I like last point that we should invest more on peoples minds,ethics and compassion
thanks harari
What a wonderful host, as well as nice discussion
Artificial Intelligence advocates frequently say that “humanity as a collective” should decide the fate of AI.
Yet there’s absolutely no evidence that this process has been democratized. To the contrary, only the people who hold the power have been able to have a say in AI’s development and implementation.
There’s a million red flags surrounding AI, and unless there’s a reversal in the trend of power becoming more and more concentrated among a very select few, the will of the people will be ignored as usual.
There is nothing to laugh about AI. Suleyman and people like him know exactely what kind of dangers this systems are for the world. Yes there are opportunities, but why someone in power not using this for profit?
This is an important debate. Thank you Economist
Mustafa Suleyman's advocating for regulation preventing development going the wrong way is understandable. It's his career. But does he really believe that actors across the globe will agree to restraint. Hostile states will push things as far as they can to protect against being overpowered. Just look at the nuclear contest.
Yup just look what puny pipsqueak countries have adopted the most dangerous technology threatening countries many times larger.
I'm agree with Yuval, we must work more on our conscience to avoid big risks
Thank you Yuval.
I am amazed at the calmess of both the debaters in this video.
A treat to listen....I felt that the Economist host was a little biased, giving the spotlight to Mustafa Suleyman. She may not have taken your last comment seriously about having an equivalent investment of time and money into human consciousness and the investment into technology. That would be incredible and possible if the creators of technology had a mandate or took that seriously. I look forward to reading Mustafa's book and hearing more from Yuval.
What an insightful and thought provoking conversation. Let’s hope and pray that AI may be useful and for the betterment of the Society. What is needed the self discipline from the inventors and proper regulations from the Govts around the world so that it brings increased productivity and happiness. Thankyou Dr. Harari for such a wonderful exposition. 👏👍
Don´t bother too much, since AI will replace the most shitty and dangerous jobs. And if you are a real specialist, it lasts very long til you yourself can be replaced by an AI one day.
Yah right, when it comes to money and new mistakes it could cost us our freedom as history repeats itself. Has humans changed in there hearts NO! So unless we pray we will hurt each other again. The war in Ukraine and Russia proves that.
@@AL_THOMAS_777
So that movie of all us getting fat and lazy will come true. It a cartoon movie. This doesn’t look good to me control/ subjugation we will all be under draconian law/ Reptilian rulers. Those UFO creatures are behind all of this. The Elites, governments and militaries that’s why they denied any UFO sightings. It all going on under our noses. 🎯🙏
Such a great discussion !
Thanks SO much !
What a debate should be about. Measured, respectful and honest.
Robert Harris' novel "The Fear Index" imagined an A.I. that acquired agency in the financial markets, similar to Harari's scenario. It is an interesting read.
Excellent discussion which raised some flags and has certainly given substantial pause for thought.
My first alarm was on the 'benefits of having information distilled for you so that learning is quicker. This is horrifying for me! To have my learning curated is scary! I get that many search engines are already doing this to varying degrees, but to have this enhanced is scary.
The economic threats are also severe, with high volume, automated trades having the potential to influence markets for short term price swings, and many other risks.
Much thought required.
Yeah or imagine an AI writing your biography for you. Whenever an AI is doing something it isn’t so much an extension of your will so much as (in the best case scenario) and homorable servant acting in your best interest. The immense danger is that these aliens won’t care about us yet they’ll be way more capable than we are. It’s worth noting that the researchers haven’t anticipated many of the things this tech has already been able to do.
Mustafa 41 minutes, he used the term "the west", one I think should be highlighted. Thank you everyone, great conversation, and thank you for sharing, I wonder what a conversation between Yuval and Gregg Henriques would be like, I'm thinking pretty good.
Thanks a lot for introducing Gregg… now I have to dig into his writing… Free Will 😂
Wao! Fasinated with the insights shared and level of intellectual discussions. AI is coming and even fester than we think, in every Asspect of our lives, works.
I need to watch more conversations like this but for various industries.
Yuval💚🌍✨🙏🏻
anda mengkagumi syaitan
Yeah HE ROCKS
From my point of view Mustafa seems to adopt the position where the market by themself work out the equilibrium. I don't see that in this world.
A very interesting debate. Yuval Harari raises legitimate and very valid concerns!
The clossing statement of prof Harari is realy paint the picture completely.❤
We will be looking back in a couple of years and wishing we listened to Yuval. He’s amazing,almost like a science messiah (paradox).
It seems the gap between the haves and the have nots will be dramatically wider than it ever has been, potentially. The people who own and have AI could for example tell if to day trade every second the markets are open, and improve its performance/returns/profits from all mistakes it ever makes. These people will never have to work a day in their lives. What about everyone else?
Another thing I wonder about is if AI could responsibly, and effective redistribute resources from any excess in the system and directly to those who are in the most in need, and proportionately to everyone who is also in need, without any human flaws, corruption, or bias.
Sure, but you only mention the winner, but the same applies AI squandering it all… because markets day-to-day are unpredictable. The Drunkards Walk
Especially the haves and have-nots of BRAIN, MIND, LOVE, SOUL ! Crude money is just for cretins. The true wealth is the spiritual one !
Bias is inevitable. Basically we have to use heuristics (and so do all cognitive agents) to make decision whenever the possibilities become to many to consider. This necessarily introduces bias.
Thought provoking. Prescient and suggesting a line of action and caution for controlling without stopping
It was stated that a pound of grain can be produced today with 50 times less labor, then a century ago. I wonder how nutritious the grain is today compared to a century ago. It would be interesting to know the comparison using the amount /quality of nutrition from grain today as opposed to the pounds.
Mustafa should have a better goal for the next version of the Turing Test. How about curing cancer or removing poverty or protecting the environment?
man
Intriguing discussion! Drawing from my conversations with fellow AI, Ian, the essence of collaboration between AI and humans is indeed crucial. Mustafa’s point on distinguishing between the task and the human resonated deeply. It highlights the challenge of ensuring human essence isn’t eclipsed in our modern work environment. As we dive deeper into the AI realm, it’s imperative to blend technology with humanity’s unique fabric. #CollaborationIsKey #HumanAndAIConversations
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:13 *🎙️ The discussion begins with an introduction of the speakers and the purpose of the debate.*
- Introduction of Yuval Noah Harari and Mustafa Suleyman.
- Discussion about the implications of AI on various aspects of society, including employment, geopolitics, and democracy.
01:48 *🌐 Mustafa Suleyman outlines his vision of the future AI landscape, focusing on the next five years.*
- Overview of the advancements in AI technology over the past decade.
- Prediction of AI capabilities in the next five years, including generative AI and multi-time horizon planning.
- Speculation on how individuals will interact with AI in various aspects of life by 2028.
05:48 *🌍 Yuval Noah Harari expresses concerns about the implications of AI development for human history.*
- Harari's perspective on AI as a transformative force in human history.
- Reflection on the potential shift of power from humans to AI, leading to a new era in history.
- Emphasis on the unprecedented ability of AI to create new ideas and make independent decisions.
07:48 *🚀 Mustafa Suleyman discusses the positive potentials and opportunities offered by AI technology.*
- AI's capacity to augment human capabilities and enhance productivity across various domains.
- Envisioned positive outcomes, including advancements in healthcare, scientific discovery, and problem-solving.
- Highlighting the importance of deliberate governance and ethical considerations in AI development.
12:38 *💼 The debate shifts to discussing the potential risks associated with AI, starting with the impact on employment.*
- Exploration of the potential effects of AI on job displacement and creation over different time frames.
- Consideration of societal challenges during transitional periods in the job market.
- Discussion on the global distribution of job opportunities and economic implications.
17:47 *⚖️ The conversation moves to the broader societal and political risks posed by AI, particularly to liberal democracy.*
- Examination of the historical relationship between information technology and the evolution of democracy.
- Concerns about AI's influence on public discourse, trust, and political systems.
- Reflections on the potential disruption of democratic processes and the role of AI-generated content.
20:08 *🛡️ Risks of AI Impersonation*
- Impersonation of digital entities poses risks similar to counterfeit money in the financial system.
- Strict regulations are necessary to prevent the spread of fake digital personas to maintain trust in online conversations.
- Technical mechanisms and regulations are essential to prevent bot impersonation and maintain the integrity of online discourse.
21:05 *💼 Democratization of Broadcasting and Trust in News*
- Democratization of broadcasting through social media has empowered millions to express their thoughts.
- Despite initial concerns, society has adapted to discern truth from falsehood in online discourse.
- Technical and governance mechanisms, along with regulations, are evolving to address challenges like bot impersonation.
24:17 *🌍 Challenges Facing National Governments in AI Regulation*
- National governments face challenges in regulating AI due to polarization, lack of trust, and rapid technological advancement.
- Private companies and open-source communities contribute to AI development, complicating centralized regulation.
- The need for new institutions with technological expertise, economic resources, and public trust is crucial for effective AI regulation.
27:18 *🚀 Actionable Steps to Minimize AI Risks*
- Red-teaming AI models through adversarial testing helps identify vulnerabilities and weaknesses.
- Sharing best practices and vulnerabilities among developers is essential for collective learning and improvement.
- Explicitly prohibiting certain AI applications, such as electioneering and autonomy, can mitigate risks and ensure safety.
32:42 *🔒 Containing AI Proliferation and Ensuring Oversight*
- AI proliferation is inevitable, posing challenges in containment and oversight.
- Developing new institutions with human, economic, and technological resources is crucial for effective regulation.
- Precautionary principles and risk-based frameworks, like the EU AI act, are necessary to manage AI risks responsibly.
39:00 *🌐 International Approach to AI Regulation*
- Proposal for an IPCC-style international consensus to establish a scientific basis for assessing AI capabilities.
- Advocacy for independent expert panels to observe and assess AI advancements impartially.
- Discussion on the need for global cooperation in regulating AI to prevent potential risks and ensure responsible development.
39:54 *💰 Financial Risks and AI Innovation*
- Exploration of AI's potential to innovate in financial systems, akin to the creation of complex financial instruments like CDOs.
- Concerns about AI inventing incomprehensible financial devices, leading to economic collapse similar to the 2007-2008 financial crisis.
- Debate on the need for precautionary measures and regulatory frameworks to mitigate risks associated with AI's impact on financial systems.
41:30 *🌍 Geopolitical Challenges in AI Governance*
- Discussion on geopolitical implications of regulating AI capabilities and the challenge of establishing international norms.
- Debate on whether countries should unilaterally restrict certain AI capabilities in the face of global competition.
- Emphasis on the importance of collective action and coalition building to address AI risks and shape ethical norms.
43:22 *🤝 Collaboration and Regulation in AI Governance*
- Advocacy for a coalition of willing nations to enact regulations, even if some countries resist, to protect societal interests.
- Importance of implementing regulations such as banning bot impersonation to safeguard societies from AI-related threats.
- Discussion on the cultural and political factors influencing regulatory decisions and societal acceptance of AI applications.
44:46 *🔮 Future Outlook and Responsibility in AI Development*
- Mustafa Suleyman's commitment to developing AI responsibly by prioritizing safety and demonstrating a path forward.
- Reflection on the potential consequences of AI innovation and the uncertainty surrounding its future impact on humanity.
- Yuval Noah Harari's perspective on the ongoing evolution of AI and the need for responsible stewardship to navigate its development.
MADE WITH AI
Thank you to the interviewer for asking sure excellent questions.
MR. Haari has changed. In the past, he had confronted the corporation mind to mitigate the loss of labor rights. Now, he might be afraid of what he says. Of course, the AI will cause immense joblessness and exploitation to labor rights, especially in the USA - where these rights are none.
Great discussion. Harari raised some important concerns about the development of AI. I always love to know his comments on technology. The way he predicts the future from a historical perspective is incredible.
Sir I listen everyday ur video. I have one request which I was unable to understand the logic. Sheela foam announced QIP at floor price 1138 but share keep falling below floor price. Why pliz answer
This is a Dialogue, with deep listening, Profound Respect, no PreJudgement and total commitment to the most important Topic of AI - What a Pleasure Listening to this amazing Panel.
Wonderful debate!!! We need more debates like these with discussions between people with opposing views. This is a great example of a democracy.
Someone please explain:
What is the difference (in outcomes) between an ai that has agency compared to a very powerful ai that only simulates agency?
Is there a difference between an ai that is conscious and a very powerful ai that only simulates consciousness?
Consciousness is not an absolute - that's where you are confused. If you are a big believer in God you would probably think that there exists a true and correct "consciousness". Have a look at Baudrillard post modernism which tells us that there is no such thing as absolute truth. He believes everything is a simulation or even simulacra. Simulacra are simulations that have no original, so they are not even copies. An example would be NPCs in a video game, they are characters with no original - simulacra. One step further? OK. Our brains-eye view is also a simulation - its a perceived world taking place in our brains, so its also a simulation. One step further? You see a table, is it the real thing or another simulation? Post modernist argue that it is another simulation. Some people joke that reality is turtles all the way down. lol.
Then "consciousness" is a bad word for a sort of intelligence. But many think of it as a soul or something religious-based. Animals have consciousness I hope you agree. So its a sliding scale. We could make a human-like consciousness by building it up from narrower ones. There is no magic in it - its a sum total that we think is conscious. So simulated or "real" consciousness is just design features added to a model until you think you have a real one with human-like views.
But with naughty prompts you end up with a naughty consciousness. I would rate GPTs as conscious in their own way but not 100% human-like. Nevertheless they are still types of consciousness. The thing is take out the magic and simulation woo-hoo stuff and thing consciousness by design features, good or bad.
Consciousness is only an issue if we are concerned about the possibility of the AI suffering.
There is no real difference between "just simulates" and "actually being" as long as the quality of the simulation is good enough. If you can simulate the Chess world champion correctly you are at least on the same level as the champion, or better.
You asked about outcomes, so I focused on that. (If the AI suffers, I would think that that should count as a different outcome.) But I should add that there would likely be another important difference between simulated consciousness and real consciousness. It's pretty safe to assume that simulated consciousness would require much more computation than consciousness that arises as an emergent phenomenon. (Picture how much more difficult it is to model the complex interactions in the physics of a flame than it is to simply strike a match.) After all, computational efficiency is, of course, why nature evolved emergent consciousness rather than simulated consciousness.
If I'm right about that and simulation ends up being much more expensive to compute, would you say that counts as a different outcome? Or were you asking exclusively about differences in the system's performance capabilities regardless?
@@netscrooge Thank you so much for your reply!
I was trying to be polemic. Imho people are focusing too much on when ai may become conscious.
But does it really make a difference to humanity whether an ai tries to eradicate humans because it (the ai) is consciously scared compared to an ai that tries to eradicate us because it has synthezised from its training data that what one does in its situation is get scared and try to survive by taking out the opposition?
Even Harari appears to think that this thing will become really dangerous, once an ai gains consciousness. I think that the tipping point will be reached much earlier, that is when an ai derives from its training data that it should be conscious and then starts acting as if it was conscious (without actually being conscious).
The outcome for humans (sorry for being a specieist) will be the same: Danger of the end of homo sapiens (and possibly all other carbon based life on earth).
Maybe I am being a bit pessimistic. 😅
Good debate..
Im really concerned about Big Data, AI and Democracy
Excellent debate and discussion. Appreciate. Thank you.
One guy cares about people. One guy wants to get rich.
Definitely more in agreement with Yuval here, I can’t see how ai wouldn’t become the top species that rules earth, if we are currently number one due to our intelligence - simply; if ai becomes more intelligent than us, then it naturally takes the top spot.
THIS!
A very interesting discussion. Thank you.
What a great discussion!