Is Vivian's Identity Faithfully Localized in the Paper Mario TTYD Remake?
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- čas přidán 24. 04. 2024
- Has Nintendo changed Vivian's depiction to match the original Japanese version of TTYD? We go over a new details that suggest this change!
Source: • Revitalised Cult Class...
#papermario #papermariothethousandyeardoor #nintendoswitch
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Video by: Tris Valbuena
Thumbnail by: Tom Arnold
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![Paper Mario's Fandom Explained With a Broken Family Analogy [Redux]](/img/n.gif)
All these comments are so confusing, Vivian is an implied trans woman, not a crossdressing man. This isn't anything against those who crossdress, but instead ties into Vivian's character.
Yes, Vivian has been refered to as an otoko no ko, a Japanese-language term that can interchangeably refer to a feminine-presenting man or a crossdressing man, rather than "transgender" (which is identical in Japanese to the English-language word) and an okama (a term for an otherwise masculine man who dresses as a woman, sometimes used as a slur to refer to trans women, even in family-friendly media at the time).
However, it should be noted that these terms were largely used in her Catch Card in _Super Paper Mario,_ and most importantly...
*Vivian never refers to herself this way.*
She describes the shadow sirens as san shimai "three sisters", and routinely uses the feminine first person pronoun atai. She identifies as a woman but Mario and his party are the first people to truly see her as one, and that ties into her finally feeling safe in her identity. I say we trust the character over her transphobic siblings and a random cameo.
Plus, in the Italian version, the initial meeting of the Shadow Sirens basically goes as follows:
Vivian: “We’ll defeat that Mario guy! ‘Cause we are ‘The three shadow sisters’!”
Bedlam: “How can you define us as ‘The three shadow sisters’? You are a man! A MAN!”
Vivian: “That’s true, you are two sisters… But I am a woman too now, and I’m proud to have turned into a woman!”
Bedlam: “Hmph. And you surely think you are more beautiful than we are, huh? You deserve a punishment for that!”
Heck, once she becomes a party member in the Italian version, her description reads ""She used to be a man, but now she's a woman and proud of it."
Say it louder please.
Your comment is really REALLY important.
THANK YOU
Thank you for the in-depth explanation!
@@KaheneYT Fax
The comments are either about this or just hating on Tris, unfortunately.
NAME AND ADDRESS WITHHELD
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that.😂
@@cyclops8238 Cultured
Okayyy Patchy the Pirate
goddamit not me readingg in that voice from spongebob XD
It's kinda funny how this small change makes Beldam seem like MORE of an asshole since she won't even disclose she's related to Vivian at all.
Beldam out here with "The Three Shadow.... workplace colleagues."
Beldam: "Me, my sister Lynn and... our associate"
"Silence! Your insolence has warranted due punishment from us, THE THREE SHADOW... UH, ACQUAINTANCES!"
Like, Beldam _could've_ just gone with "The Shadow Trio" (like most other languages do), but this change makes it so she's _actively_ going out of her way to exclude Vivian.
@@MattTOB618Nintendo really wants to make sure Beldam is extra evil.... probably to make sure the message is clear of "transphobia is bad". Srsly cancel culture would cancel even just a villain who is transphobic, even if the writing makes it clear that it's wrong.
I'm pretty sure Beldam's "RELATION WITHHELD" is just another insult towards Vivian, like a sort of "we're not related" kind of thing, likely as a form of punishment to Vivian by claiming they're no longer related
That’s how I’m interpreting the scene. It also seems like a deliberate move on Nintendo’s part to dodge the question of her gender because they know there will be controversy no matter which side they take.
I honestly couldn't care either way because Vivian was one of my favorite characters in the original, regardless of any changes.
@Nintendotron64 which is a smart move, they're gonna piss people off either way, so just go neutral with it.
Probably Beldam is just harassing Vivian as a non-female and an excuse.
I think Beldam is essentially disowning Vivian for not being evil like her or Marilyn. It would still work given Beldam’s inherent nastiness and constantly blaming Vivian for her own mistakes.
That is the exact case even in the Original
Well, that's another reason.
There is a chance that they may have gone the route of Cinderella and treat her as not an actual part of the family rather than make fun of or any allusions to her gender identity, given the wording of "no relation". I dunno. There's really not enough text to go off of yet.
This is the based answer
I really hope not, ignoring the fact that Vivian is trans for a second time would be a pretty crappy move.
@@SuspiciousTemmieWhat's crappy is taking a character and forcing it into something you want it to be with no identifiable proof. It was never proven that Vivian was a guy. Yall just took that and ran tbh.
@@bk7064 Ah yes, _we're_ the ones trying to say the lore is different from what it actually was, as if the English localization was the original version
Transphobes are always so hypocritical, it's honestly just funny at this point lol
@@SuspiciousTemmie Do you know how hypocritical some of you sound? How on Earth does it make sense to say *"the Italian version counts, but the US version doesn't."* The Italian version literally has lines added in. You can't accuse others of not accepting a copy's version of writing when yourself are doing EXACTLY that lol!
Edit: For those reading the person below me, they are wrong. She was never even confirmed to be trans in the Japanese version. So much misinformation from yall.
EXPLANATION: Vivian refers to them as "Shadow Sisters" so Beldam is gaslighting and being a sarcastic asshole saying something like "The Three Shadow -- RELATIONSHIP WITHHELD --"
that’s not what gaslighting means. she’s definitely being awful but like words have meanings
@@GHOZTSHXRKZnot according to twitter users they sure don't
@@darcidious99so true lol
Skip the comments section this time, ladies and gentlemen. Just enjoy the game when it comes out.
Finally a good comment.
Don't forget the enbies, too! It's not just ladies and gentlemen here :3
I agree, just enjoy the game folks. Be glad we’re even getting TTYD on Switch at all! It is a fantastic game regardless of Vivian.
😂 Ok dude... This is what the delusional do when faced with the facts.
Just scream loudly and pretend the truth doesn't exist.
@@droopdanke2323 Lmao projecting much?
Conservatives accuse us of doing the exact same thing they do so often, it's hilarious
Regardless of what they do with Vivian… It feels weird they just slap a honking -RELATION WITHHELD- in the dialogue box.
The sirens are talked about before this scene in the game, before you meet them here, so Beldam saying RELATION WITHHELD adds to her character, since she still refuses to call Vivian pretty, or even her sister.
The extra dashes are being used properly for a conversation that going on through text. It's only weird if you're not used to the use of dashes in your written work.
Tbh it's just Beldam being mean to Vivian, basically saying they're not related when they are
@@nathanblackburn1193 I don't think the intent is to say they're not related, it's to avoid using the word "sister", because Beldam is just transphobic like that.
@@PrincessFelicie yeah that’s not it at all
I think it's really funny actually. Even if the trans issue didn't exist at all. It's kinda like when a show humorously censors unexplicit content as a gag. Maybe my sense of humor is just quirky. I don't know. But I personally find it amusing trans or otherwise.
They should do a remake of Super Paper Mario in the future!
Pretty off topic comment but that would be cool
I would kill to watch an entire new generation cry at the story and scream running from Mimi. I adore that game.
I would love to play as Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi again!
@@Noah.Seth07 they should also do a remake of Mario and Luigi Partners In Time! If that does happen, do you think the game should use hand drawn animation in the same style as the box art or should it use graphics similar to the 3DS games where the characters are in 2D but the backgrounds are in 3D?
@@adammiranda357 I would love hand drawn. Maybe like The Super Mario Bros Super Show but modern.
Just enjoy the game, cause Nintendo will just leave it ambiguous so they don't have to deal with this.
That's the best move they can do.
Right, who's ready to sequence break to get 50 Power Rushes from the parlor before chapter 2 so we can instakill Beldam?
If your goal is just to 1-tap Beldam, then all you need for that is the Mega Rush P badge behind Mayor Kroop's house and enough Star Pieces to get the Power Plus P badge from Dazzle. Rank up Koops, get him to 1 HP, then have him Power Shell the Shadow Furies. Marilyn will survive with 3 HP, but that's easy for Mario to handle.
If it's extremely important to you that you 1-action the entire fight, then you actually need to do some badge farming from the Koopa Troopas or Parakoopas in Hooktail's castle. (One Power Rush badge needed if you're willing to go into the Pit to get Fire Drive, but two Power Rush P badges if you decide to go the Power Shell route.)
Finally some normal People
god looking at most of the comments people genuinely believed Vivian is Trans
@@Ren31802 Because in most translations she is, and even in Japanese Vivian uses feminine language as well as calling them 3 sisters. Beldam shoots her down, saying they aren't 3 sisters. Trans or not, Vivian has a female identity and Beldam does not agree.
YOU AGAIN
@@Ren31802 Well she is. Sorry you're misinterpreting "Beat every last sign of life out of someone transphobic" as me believing a trans character isn't trans and that "makes me normal".
Well, in a plot twist so uninteresting it never even existed, I support humans having more rights. And beating every last sign of life out of those who believe otherwise.
I hate the internet
Same, I wish the Internet would completely shut down for a day or two or at the very least 3 Outside of emergency Services
@@Ren31802 yeah, lol. Maybe some of these people would go outside for once.
I hate looking through this comment section, but I also cant stop
True 💀
It like watching a car crash in slow motion but like 50× more car crashes
I find it funny how localization changed the genders of 2 different Mario characters, leading to them being trans gaming icons
It feels more like Beldam is saying she's so ashamed to be related to Vivian she won't admit it. Irrelevant to gender.
I'm gonna be honest...
I always that pink thing in front of Vivian's face was a nose instead of pink, swirling hair.
My brain registers it as an eye
So what is the pink thing behind her head then?
@@MusicJunkie37 Ironically... hair
I thought that was a nose too? I didn't know that was hair! all these years and I didn't know until this video.
I have a similar experience, I always thought the blush on her cheek (as well as the other sister’s) was her eye growing up
Honestly the shadow sirens was a way cooler name. Regardless of what side you are on with trans characters that's a name they should have kept
It's such a cool name.
It's the same name.
I'm pretty sure Beldam is making a "joke" to make Vivian suffer here
@@KaheneYTcould be but I doubt it as it's the introduction scene.
Though that would make the siblings more spiteful as a result in this new version. I'll wait for more info
@@KaheneYT no, since the music name keeps the Three shadows
Well, Sirens refer to the individuals in the group as pure female.
@@barrenwanderers5655Wouldn't siren work either way by that account? Feels they are missing out on a good name
Vivian is my most favorite character in TTYD, seeing her character development grow as she’s stands up to her abusive sisters feels very brave.
Okay I'm usually against changing existing works but I can't help but laugh at this one. It reminds me of that "NAME AND ADDRESS WITHHELD" joke from Spongebob lol
Edit: Good grief this comment section is a battlefield. 😐
The change was in the *original* localization, this was changing it back to the correct lore. Saying "I'm against changing existing works" in this context comes off as pretty transphobic
@@Ren31802 Vivian was always _a trans woman_ in the original Japanese. It's not "headcanon", _you're_ the one who doesn't know the facts.
@@PrincessFelicie Arigato
But your Input of Misinformation is unessesary, I don't tolerate dumbasses
@@Ren31802????????
B. Birdo's gender was not settled for a while. It still technically isn't.
It flip flopped a lot whether Birdo was a guy who likes being feminine or a woman (and whether she would be counted as a trans woman or cis woman).
The history of Birdo's gender is super messy. Saying she has always been a (presumably cis) woman is straight up incorrect. I do believe that it was initially American localizations that implied that she's not a cis woman? Which makes sense given that she was introduced in Super Mario Bros USA (the American Super Mario Bros. 2) (So arguably even if Japan did always present her as a cis woman she was still originally listed as a man.) But claiming Japanese versions of the character didn't have imply she's something other than a cis woman is straight up false.
She's even in a Japanese exclusive game where whether she's a cis woman implied to not be the case.
Right now the current consensus is that she is just. Woman. And Nintendo hasn't really clarified if she's a trans woman or cis woman even though her past makes that a very pertinent question with her.
@@Ren31802Games are art and can be interpreted in different ways. There's very clear trans subtext with her character and even if you dont think she's trans it's reductive to say other people are wrong for thinking she is when the pieces are clearly there. The fact that people with unique life experiences can apply their own meaning to it is what makes art beautiful. There's no reason to get so defensive about other people having different interpretations
I never once thought of Vivian as 'trans', just felt like they reject her because of jealously of her beauty or practically "perfect" physique in the other two's eyes, so they tease her (edited: to degrade her of her womanhood and to not be apart of the "sisterhood" thus calling her a 'man' or other derogatory means to belittle her and to have Vivian fall into the sense of believing what her sisters has always made fun of her about). As for the name change, I feel it correlates more with how divided the sisters/sirens are, and why the "relation withheld" part is pretty funny, because they surely do withhold their relation upon one another, especially against Vivian out of spite and jealousy.
I thought they were calling her a boy to say that she's ugly in order to lower her self-esteem, but at this point, it's not clear.
Vivian is explicitly, unambiguously trans in non English versions
@@djdrizzy9139Vivian talks about how she was proud to have become a woman after her sisters call her a man in other versions. It’s not unclear
@@creativename4879 If it wasn't unclear, there wouldn't be a debate lol.
@@djdrizzy9139 that’s not how it works lol. You can debate something and be wrong. I can start arguing with you I think the earth is flat and that doesn’t make it unclear it’s round
the answer is no, the whole cutscene got leaked in different languages and the "relation withheld" mostly means that Vivian is not a true sister to Beldam, with the scene going with Vivian saying "I just wished I was your sister", mostly like she was originally not related to them, not because of her gender identity, more like parental relationship. (wish make sense with a plot hole about the game ending), but they dont mention vivian gender at all; just that she is not her sister. The leaked cutscene was in french and people also saw the spanish version, and they all use this same dialogue (to note that in the original french version, Vivian was 100% trans gender and was even called "boy" by Beldam) so there's a huge possibility this apply to the english translation.
Both this and the censorship of the cat calling scene make me think we should review bomb this game not to mention the game just looks like someone added a really bad texture pack and some really bad shaders in dolphin
@@zachattack1279 sure, lets review bomb a game for just 2 useless lines of dialogues that doesn't change the game at all. Also you are blind for believing this is just a shaders and not a complete remodeling of the entire game map with new animations
@@FouMageDev THE GROUND IN BOGGLY WOODS IS REFLECTIVE FUCKING REFLECTIVE
@@zachattack1279 that's because its made of shiny materials! Shiny cardboard!!!
Vivian was never trans though. In any translation. Either a feminine man, or a regular woman.
wrong, in french she is trans, I played the game as a kid and she was called "a boy" and everyone used "she" for her pronounce, ignoring totally that she was originally a boy
Vivian is a girl. Everyone in the game refers to her as such with apparently the exception of her hateful sisters who are constantly putting her down. Nothing about them should be used in a discussion about Vivian’s identity. I’m blown away that this is even a topic of discussion.
I know
No Vivian is a boy it's time to stop this delusional lie
@@otakuthegreat it’s time to stop liking your own comments and understand that no everything will carter to your illusions, simply because you feel threatened and insecure about it. 😌
@@otakuthegreatNot in the North American version and some European versions.
The one I played is the North American version.
@@blayedd_ ironic, but i don’t expect you to understand what irony is. personally if i didn’t like something or someone i wouldn’t obsess over it, hope this helps
Look I’ve always identified her as a full female since I was a kid and that’s not gonna change for me
You know that she is a trans GIRL right?
So she is still a girl.
@@KaheneYTif she’s a trans girl that means she’s lying, so no actual she’d be a boy if she was trans, but English localization says she’s a real girl.
So transwomen aren't "full female"?
@@NuiYabuko oh for god’s sake, that’s not what I meant….
@@endoskel9262 Then "for God's sake" word it better. What is "full female" even supposed to mean?
Did it ever occur that Vivian getting called a boy might’ve just been a petty insult. Being told “You’re a boy!” has always been a harsh insult to girls. It’s been around forever.
The Italian version made it explicit she was trans, and people have ran with that version as the narrative for 20 years. Even though it’s just as valid or worthless as the English one because it’s just another localization. I mean, in reference 4 of Vivian’s Wikipedia page you can see that Italy literally added lines that weren’t there in the direct translation. The Japanese one could be seen as Vivian is a cross dressing boy or a biological female. Because there’s no other proof of what she is biologically.
Nintendo likely made it even more vague so they don’t have to say anything definitive and cause a stir. Although I’m sure anything other than being explicitly trans will still get met with ire, just because people have been going off the European versions all this time.
@@subifyouhatetiktokandreddit234 …which means vivian is a trans woman? lol atp, you’re just embarrassing yourself
@@mrshmuga9 it will be met with ire if they don't do it well because this is one of those things where inaction still speaks as action because there is precedent.
That's what I thought when I played the game, several times. It's insults.
@@mrshmuga9 different localizers have different interpretations. if it wasn't written in the original Japanese script then not correct
For those saying it suggests "she's a man in the Italian version," you're misleading others. Again guys, it was never confirmed that she was originally a man. EVER. *This is a game thay is VERY blatant in it's message. If they wanted that story to be 100 identifiable, it would be CLEAR.* You guys can't accuse others of not accepting one copy's writing of the game then do that EXACT thing yourselves in saying "the American version doesn't count." If Nintendo came out and said "Vivian was a guy" then sure by all means I don't care. Again the original copy doesn't even confirm this. The reality is that she is reffered to as a girl even outside of her own group. She was referred to as a "man" and being "ugly" because she was clearly the most pretty of the 3 shadow sisters, hence why they made fun of her. It's the same idea as the Cinderella route.
Listen at the end of the day I don't care. If Nintendo came out and confirmed it for us then okay. But the truth is there is one side that needs to "convince" others. It seems to me that some took the tiniest detail and ran with it to being more than it was because some are so driven on seeing a trans character. *But again, one has to REACH to even make that point. We have to take what is given to us. And that is the fact she is referred to, and characterized AS A GIRL.*
of course she's a girl, everyone agrees on that. the only question is whether she's trans, and whether crossdressers were commonly distinguished from trans women in Japan in 2004
"She used to be a man, but now she's a woman and proud of it,"
The Italian dub of Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door, according to the Mario Wiki.
You had to state the most pro trans women are women translation of the game as an example.
Idk this seems like it's only a problem in Germanic language countries, seeing as they're the only one's where the transgender implications are removed entirely, even if only one doesn't treat it as a joke.
I am Italian myself and I've seen the scenes in question and, whether it is an accurate translation or not, there is no "trans" reference in there. The phrases used in Italian are just "mean girl" back-and-forth. People just want to believe the purple ghost is trans for no reason.
@@mds_main Thanks for the input.
I’m fine with whatever they decide to do with her backstory, she’s still my favorite partner in battle.
Everyone is going to like Vivian. She's so Cute!
Seek help
@@Aggro224 calm down lol
@@helloskittysuprise You need help
@@Aggro224 the irony
@@Aggro224 Seek help
Always be a girl to me
Agreed
Same here.
I think only USA location did this, all other languages she was a girl.
I mean both versions are girls
Same
Gamexplain is suddenly all for "faithful localization" now, yet these are the same people that praised Splatoon 3 for not being "faithfully localized" when they removed the gender options in the localized version that are still present in the Japanese version. This is just a blatant double standard.
One relates to a story that permeates the entire game, the other is a character creator that acts as an extension of yourself. There is no contradiction
@@GameXplainNah. You guys are just far left liberals with that Transphobe comment at the end
@@IaconDawnshire Why does everything has to be political with you people?
No shit, is it just now occured to you that ideologues are not consistent?
@@SaltyToad00 funny when they toss in Transphobe. That in itself is political. Get over it
I feel it's gonna be a "up to you" situation where being vague on Vivian and co's identify will be a choice for the player so Nintendo can not cause an issue either way.
Though i would have made it be funnier than the new version to celebrate the return of the game instead.
You know like what vivian chooses. But that's hust me on this one screenshot.
I agree with your general intent, but "up to you" is *not* the way to phrase it. As a trans woman myself, it really irks me when people think they can decide who somebody else is. I would phrase it "subtle" instead
Whether you see subtle representation like this is _not_ based on an opinion, it's based on *whether you realize or not.*
@@SuspiciousTemmie than what is the word for it than
Also what do you mena subtle how is that subtle it is implied
For one if I say it is subtle to you if you subtle is a I dont know..... what to put here...
@@KirbyZilla subtextual?
Honestly my main concern is the potential removal of the Shadow Sirens name
They indeed removed the shadow sirens name, which was an invention of the English localization. The switch version retranslates the entire game to be more faithful to the Japanese script. They're called the "shadows three" or "three shadows" now.
That's a shame
@@KrimsonKattYT this is one of those things where i don't feel that being more faithful to the Japanese script is necessarily better. which do you prefer: Glitzville, or Oolongtown?
@@MultiHardcoreI'm down for Oolongtown, it sounds funny.
The name Bowser is an invention of English localization, as are most Pokémon names. Imagine if when FireRed and LeafGreen came out, the legendary birds were called Freezer, Thunder, and Fire for the sake of remaining faithful to the original Japanese.
i think people are looking too much into this. calling a young girl a boy is a common insult, Especially at the time. Many little girls always wanted to be seen as a pretty princess and to be called "boyish" was insulting.
It could also be a case of making fun of a tomboy and treating them as if they aren't a girl. I had a tomboy friend in elementary school and people would always call her a boy despite her hating it.
Not in the way it was written. The language used is very, very definitively transphobic language, not simply "You look mannish".
In other versions of ttyd not just Japan, she was explicitly transgender and not just called a man
@@shadisnotamused from what I understand, only the Italian version mentions her being trans. Italian isn’t the original script so it was the Italian localization team that added that detail.
Yes same with calling young boy a girl.
People just want to overhype their headcanon and make wrong facts about a certain character.
Just like what happened with shiver from splatoon.
@@BK2410 it's not a headcanon if actual scripts have it in there the fuck
A friendly reminder that inference is NOT implication.
Regardless of identity, Vivian is still an abuse victim who leaves her abusers for better people who treat her with respect.
I’m not a fan of the change because the Shadow Sirens sounds so cool and iconic while the new dialogue is kinda awkward like a CVS answer machine telling you you’re prescription is ready where the first part is a natural voice talking and then it cuts to the robotic automated part referring to you specifically.
I agree. It was a good name.
They were called the Shadow Trio in the original Japanese version, the "sirens" part was just censorship to remove any possible reference of Vivian being trans.
@@tessaPMpro That's not exactly what Happened, Vivian was never Trans, Shadow Sirens being the change from Shadow Trio was just a Case of mistranslation, not censorship
I think that awkwardness is meant to be the point.
Note this doesn't imply they're no longer called Shadow Sirens, but of what I heard it has likely been reverted to the "shadow trio" which appears in basically all other translations.
@Ren31802 sure, you're free whatever alternative reality you want to make up in your head to help you cope with the fact that a character you like is trans. The rest of us will continue to live in reality.
Vivian was never trans. People just project that on her.
Why are you lying?
Why are _you_ lying?
she could be interpreted to be in the japanese and french version, though she could also be a crossdresser
in the italian version, she is 100% trans
in the english version its never brought up
the japanese translation is the original and should be preferred the most but her being trans in italian proves that this was probably the intended interpretation and that the english was censoring it
So true dude
Oh wait, they're a femboy, not trans. This is true
double pain from the beginning? any infos?
This matter seems too nuanced for American Discource to handle
I'm going with the Cinderella path. Don't like it oh well. Deal with it
You’re nobody. Nobody cares
then stop crying about it?
@@helloskittysuprise Are you done stalking me ya freak. Did I not say deal with it? Maybe I stuttered. What I meant to say was S T F U
@@IaconDawnshire calm down, you’re being hysterical lol. stop crying over a game and seek employment 🚬
you’re literally crying over a fictional character lol
Vivian is female. End of.
Male you mean that's the whole point of the Otokonoko trope
@@otakuthegreat I don't know what weeb lingo you just threw at me but she's female
@@AntiRiku actually no, in the japanese version he really is a male, they censored it in the english version
@@angry998 Why don't you quote the part that explicitly says that she's indeed a dude in a wig?
correct she is a trans woman, gave to see you have some logic and common sense in you 😌
i wonder how the japan version is different?
I just wonder how is going to be in latin-american spanish. OG only was located to spanish Spain. This remake is the first we get our own latin american location of this game.
I hope they stay close to the original version just like Castilian did way back in 2000 and don't add modismos (no pinche taco we)
They probably use the spain version and make some tweaks to be more natural for latinamerica
Espero que sea del español, ¿Te imaginas que es del inglés y tanto en inglés como en latino censuran la transexualidad de Vivían?
En España, ella siempre fue trans, odiaría que eso se quede solo en España, en serio me jode que para todo siempre, siempre, siempre debamos depender de los gringos. -_-
@@AzumarillConGafasBvSí cierto, la traducción de España de Nintendo es siempre superior.
Excepto Pokémon, pero eso es por Game freak o Pokémon company, no de por Nintendo
@@ChiisaruThe best option.
Please keep her a girl because that was what I was used to. I hope that doesn’t mean they are going to change that around for folks used to the American version who played through said game multiple times and love the character as that way.
That being said though the dialogue change there is hilarious, but mean. 😂 Poor Vivian.
Before anybody uses the Italian translation as evidence of anything, I am Italian myself and I've seen the scenes in question and, whether it is an accurate translation or not, there is no "trans" reference in there.
The phrases used in Italian are just "mean girl" back-and-forth and a "growing up" journey.
The scene in Italian makes perfect sense because to call a girl a "man" (or a "maschiaccio") is an insult that basically comes down to saying the girl in question is ugly, childish and bad-mannered, that has no gender implications.
Furthermore, in Italian, to say you "have become a woman/man" (or "diventare una donna/uomo") is a synonym for growing up, both physically and emotionally.
Basically the whole thing is just her sisters belittling her, calling her ugly and childish, until she finally surpasses it and matures ("becoming a woman"). But Americans being Americans don't stop to think about it for a second on context and they just take the literal translation without the needed cultural background that is common knowledge for every Italian-speaking person like myself.
I'm American and I don't like it when they do that either.
@@ughugh5829Same
@@nicole2009
I am only speaking of the original Italian translation, as a real Italian born, raised and still living in Italy, so I am very much qualified to talk about my language. People use it as evidence of their claims when in reality it is evidence of nothing. I just wanted to point that out.
@@nicole2009
Qualsiasi cosa ti faccia dormire la notte 😂
L'unica persona bugiarda qua non sono io, visto che non sono io che, non avendo modo di controbattere, deve inventarsi calunnie contro un'altra persona.
Underrated comment.
Either way. Vivian will be my favorite TYD character.
I’m going be honest I don’t care about the character gender I want to play TTYD again I waited too long for this remake of this game plus I’m just going call Vivian a girl like I did in my childhood when playing this game
That's the spirit!
I'm not sure why you watched a video about her gender then but I'm glad you are excited
Yeah I'm still gonna call her a girl like I've always did in my childhood playing this game. Trans girls are girls after all.
she still is a girl
She was never trans to start with - At least, to my understanding. The context of the original Japanese dialogue was a joke. Bedlam saw Vivian as so ugly that she didn't even see her as a girl.
I agree since its very similar to Yamato on One Piece since she whats to be like Oden so Kaido calling her a boy as his son instead of his daughter.
@@courage1363 Yeah, something like that.
Most people’s arguments come from other international versions, but in the original Japanese version there is only 1 line of dialogue to go off of and the context is a bit vague.
I'm honestly afarid they'll change it this time. I perfer her as just a cute girl.
@@kingcrimson2643 They won’t change it. Not internationally, anyway.
Nintendo replaced the simple cat calling dialogue from the Goombas in the sewer in the remake with just normal insults. There’s no way they’d make Vivian openly trans/cross dressing.
@@MrMindCloudactually not true I played the original version of the game and there's another moment later in the game where bedlam calls her a "crossdresser" and another point where she calls her "brother" the brother line comes in their 2nd fight during the final chapter
Don't overhype you're headcanon and make wrong facts about a certain character.
Just like what happened with shiver from splatoon.
vivian has been trans since the original, hope this helps
@@helloskittysuprise no she was just a boy.
Yall just made this up lol
@@BK2410 history says otherwise, vivian is a trans woman, you’ll live 😌
@@helloskittysuprise what history?
@@BK2410 did i stutter?
I’m gonna wahoo on everyone who makes pointless arguments in a comment section
To me Vivian will always be a born girl who is hated by her sisters for being prettier than them.
Common misconception. Vivian was never transgender. Beldam calling her a man is an insult meaning she's ugly, in Japanese culture (especially ~20 years ago when the game was made), this was the ultimate insult against a woman's looks. Vivian has always been female, from the beginning.
who told you this? like seriously, where'd you get this from? i've never seen anyone back up this statement or talk about the specific words used when it comes to this argument. i've only seen people talk about okamu and otokonoko, the actual words used, along with her selected pronouns, to back the idea that she identifies as female and is being called male by most of the cast
@@MultiHardcore what’s funny is that he’s absolutely correct
@@MultiHardcoreRead again. The point of the insult is to not call her a woman even tho she is. Calling a woman a man is not just because it's transphobic.
But beldam also calls her "crossdresser" and "brother" at later points in the game
@@MultiHardcore I also don't understand where that's coming from when Japanese people seem to see her at least as a female-presenting man.
Vivian was always a girl to me. Even her name makes it pretty obvious.
"The spelling Vivian was historically used only as a masculine name, and is still used as such in the UK with this spelling, but in the 19th century was also given to girls and was a unisex name until the early part of the 20th century; since the mid 20th century, it has been almost exclusively given as a feminine name in the United States. Use of Vivian as a feminine name peaked in popularity in the United States in 1920 at rank 64, but declined in the second half of the 20th century, falling below rank 500 in the 1980s. Its popularity has again picked up somewhat since the 1990s, as of 2012 having attained rank 140."
Someone mentioned the name used to be masculine and looked it up, guess they were right.
nobody doubts she's a girl, the only question is if she's trans
Either way she is one, I have friends who chose to keep their birth name and ones who changed it based on their identity and I fully respect them for it.
Just enjoy the game folks. Be glad we’re even getting TTYD on Switch at all! It is a fantastic game regardless of Vivian.
Vivian has a long history of localization. Back in the old days transgender and cross-dressing are forbidden on kids games 🎮 and now some games have welcomed the un-ban treatment, that's fine by me but I don't know Nintendo is updating on this problem but will see because Vivian is still Vivian as she looks.
Yes, we are missing lines still. We have to see what they did with the line "Vivian?! What the hell are you saying! You are a man!!" from the original Japanese. I really hope they do it all justice.
Same here
@@otakuthegreat Then you agree Vivian will remain a trans woman, great! So what was that little temper tantrum you were throwing everywhere? lol
There are different interpretations I will refer to here as born female but ya’ll can say that she is he
As long as its faithful I really dont care and see why this is big news
Same here I'm ok with whatever but i hate all the people who are going "wokeism" and "political statement" because of this when we don't know if she's a woman or not
We were excited about this game because we waited so long for a sequel to the game or a remaster game we finally get a remake and people are bitching about trivial shit like a character being transgender they are so ungrateful
Just getting parallels to freaking Uncle Ruckus of all people with the Relation Withheld change in dialogue with Beldam. Hilarious, over the top, and yet very on brand.
A fun fact that's been pointed out on the TTYD's Fridge page at TV Tropes: Vivian is at least a thousand years old, and the name "Vivian" was, in old days, originally a masculine one. These facts together could mean that Vivian is the name she's had her whole life, but it was considered a male name back when Vivian herself was still seen as male. Which would mean her name transitioned _with_ her as society overall started using it more as a feminine name.
They’re no longer called the Shadow Sirens?!
Maybe to hurt Vivian more and cas more verbal abuse?
@@sonicgamingkirbyfan2005v-xm2rl the song name is "Here are the three shadows"
@volvoman5262 so there the shadows then. Guess will have to wait to see if Vivian is still a girl and turned into a boy when the game comes out.
Look I’m sorry but I feel they should just play it safe and do what they did back in the GameCube version. This place has already got people upset on every side
I'm pretty sure they're still called The Shadow Sirens, but I could be wrong
Imagine if this game was release in June?
It’s releasing on the 23rd this month. How far behind are u on this rn
i think this is pretty interesting, they may have found a really subtle way to carry over Vivian's story. The "shadow sirens" part was original to the english script, the original japanese has beldam call them the "shadow trio" or "shadows three", which seems to be more faithfully shown here in this screenshot of the new dialogue. obviously we don't know the rest of the dialogue yet, especially the infamous red-text line, but it seems at the very least there is a change present, and that HEAVILY suggests a more faithful translation.
Another potential possibility is that the script in the Japanese version is also being changed as well. I heard from someone who spoke Japanese on Twitter that they’re apparently changing certain things from the original that were changed for other versions outside Japan. For instance, there was a boo with bunny ears in the original Japanese release, but was changed to cat ears elsewhere, and that’s apparently being carried over to the remake.
@@scottvgamer1163 Well, there are also things from the Japanese that are making it over to the English, like Hooktail's weakness being frogs, not crickets. There may be a lot of back and forth going on.
@@primarvelous yeah, exactly. Hopefully that’s the case, because it would be great if everyone gets the same version everywhere.
@@scottvgamer1163 The Boos having cat ears instead of their original bunny ears in localization might've been to avoid infringing on copyright and that's why it was carried over in all regions in the remake.
@@Whispernyan but why is the Japanese version using the cat ears too?
Would either way
Based
🤨
How is this misinformation still prevalent? Vivian wasn't trans to begin with, Vivian is a boy that loves to dress pretty and it was apparent that the sister hated that Vivian is so much prettier than them. (Mostly Beldum)
Japanese players knows this as cross dressing.
I should know, I played the Japanese version with my friend when I went to Japan a few yeara ago and even she was surprised that American think Vivian is trans
No, she’s a girl and has been officially acknowledged as one for years
You’re one of the few people that knows that Vivian isn’t trans and understands. I don’t know too much Japanese I’m learning a little. I’ve been saying that Vivian was an Otokonoko(male with a feminine look). You don’t know how much I needed to correct people
@@onepiecefan2838 She’s officially been acknowledged as a woman for years
It's rather easy for the uninformed to think that femboys and transwomen are the same. They are not.
Thank you cuz I've been confused for a minute.
Ngl i think i personally like her just being a girl but that's just me, it'd just be nice to finally have an official answer, one way or another, they goof around with the genders of the legion of stationary in other regions too but those guys are barely characters lmao
The Japanese version is pretty clear about her... I don't know what else you want from an official answer.
I think Vivian is required in specific obstacles of the game. Like using her to find the toad ghost on the train which is a required task.
Correct
@@zefraschosen2732 So that means that she has the exact same role as in the original game.
@@jonathandillon2100Yes...? A part of her character doesn't change her usage in the game
@@makichi47896 Right!
Otokonoko
My take has always been that they just called her a man in the original JP version as another way of caller her ugly, not that she was actually a guy at some point. I don’t know why people think otherwise
Ikr?
Fr
Because men are pretty too, but you know. You do you. ✌✌
Especially because they clearly made the other 2 sirens ugly. Only looks basically like a witch with the long, thing nose, and the other one is obese. Seemed liked the easiest answer was they were just jealous because they’re both hideous.
Apparently ppl have been using the Italian localization as the "Definitive" proof for years now.
Everywhere else doesn't have it or ppl trying to mental gymnastic the "manly" insult as confirming trans.
I really hope they translate it faithfully. I'm worried that they won't because they're scared of transphobic backlash which would suck, but the character is obviously trans and intended to be trans and it sucks when trans characters are erased to appease people who hate us.
Like I said before, no matter what they do it'll upset somebody. But I don't really care. I'm not going to let either side ruin this game for me.
Cool, her gender shouldn't even matter in the game
why does cross-dresser automatically equal trans....?
Men in drag still exist which was the joke of Vivians whole character in the JP version....
Except most men who wear women close consider themselves women so uhh…
For all the talk of gender is a social construct there has been lots of demanding that folks who don't fit the mold are trans....
Trans people are people as long as your not a jerk than you will be respected though the section who shout egg whenever someone doesnt fit into the norm piss me off
It’s because she was changed to a girl and that has been who she’s been officially for years
Because the far left hijacked it
@@IaconDawnshire Yeah, suuuure pal
No
?
@@Shadow14f I want her to be a woman
Yes
@@CliffordlongheadOh, I didn't know that you were so horny and such a powerful person who can decide everything. 😂
yes 🗿
given what I remember, I think Vivian would be referred to as male by all but herself, then, after defeating Doopliss, Vivian would be referred to as female by all but Beldam, Marilyn, the Shadow Queen, and MAYBE Doopliss.
En la version española dice que se cree que Bibiana es una chica pero que en verdad es un chico, la verdad la sabe el idioma origen del juego.
No hay prueva de ello
Me pregunto cómo será ahora, espero que se mantenga.
De momento, concha, lo cambiaron a caparazón. XD
The only way this will finally be cleared up is if we get someone to interview the writer for TTYD. And ask questions and receive answers that can’t be too easily lost in translation.
now this one gonna be the most interesting one, and a lose-lose somewhat, go with the localized version for US and some other place and that'll be technically Censorship, go with the original and it'll get swayed into the wrong idea for those who don't know, try an inbetween and results will vary, but either way, as long as the game is fun, you figure out the rest
1:25
I'm not so sure if this is even enough for the representation to get through....
I like when localising keeps it faithful as much as It can.
I prefer her as a girl, that might be just me.
It’s not just you 😂. There are many of us
Most of us normal people do
I always felt like Vivian was the only girl in the group. I was young so I didn’t really know what siren meant.
Goombella and the miss Flurry are women.
I think Vivian is interesting.
But honestly I don't know, like I'm confused with this like somebody. Please tell me about this. I mean I do think the characters fine stuff. I like the designs the Shadow signs look really Fascinating to me
Honestly, I don't really care to know the gender identity of the cartoon paper shadow people.
I agree. I’m just sick of gender politics in general. I don’t think Nintendo designed Vivian’s character hoping to create all this discussion.
@@spiral7892 yeah, I saw all this coming MILES away.
@@spiral7892What’s “gender politics” lol
Some folks care about the story in games.
You might, but for us who have to live with it and be hated for who we are, it’s nice to sometimes have a character in a game that you can relate to, which is why I hope Vivian isn’t censored in the western localisation again… It’s a small thing, but it means a lot to us
If nintendo changed it because of these idiots im never buying this game
As if you were planning on buying it in the first place.
Return polute Harry Potter's fanbase with your bigotry and stop pretending you're a fan of TTYD.
The game will be fine without you buying it. Hell, you might end up buying the game yourself to join the fun
This comment section did not pass the vibe check
Honestly, even if they do acknowledge Vivian being Trans, I still feel her ending is complete crap. Beldam is one of the biggest pieces of scum in the entire Mario franchise, with all the verbal and implied physical abuse she puts her sisters through in EVERY version.
She just doesn't deserve to make amends, in my opinion, and Vivian's persistent attachment feels more trauma induced than genuine to me. Her ending should see her being completely free from her old abusive life and Beldam should join most of the other RPG villains and kick the bucket. She deserves it just as much if not more than the likes of Smithy, Fawul and even Dimentio.
It's just unfortunate that Nintendo probably won't do that...
I swear, if Nintendo Treehouse makes changes aside from the original meaning during localization, I'm gonna blow a gasket!
Hopefully they don't address her "identity" at all because this is mainly a kids game. Keep this crap out of games.
cat calling, a noose, a toad outline with stains, kidnapping, gambling, shall i go on? but let’s stop cherry picking things that doesn’t affect the gameplay in not way shape or form on this “mainly kids game.”you’ll live.
@@helloskittysuprise Womp womp
@helloskittysuprise Meanwhile, ALL of those things you mentioned got censored. It's only fair to censor Vivian, too. The guy is right, this is rated E for EVERYONE.
@@3dgar2oh kidnapping, gambling, and the noose is still there? what were the voices telling you again? lol
@@helloskittysuprise which reveals how one sided and hypocritical they are about censorship, honey.
Sucks we won’t see any male version of shadows like them.
Hot take but it’s a ghost in a video game so I could care less if a ghost is trans or not as long as the character is written well who cares
Was the "fighting a transphobe in all versions, which is fine by me" line really necessary? If someone has a different opinion, the solution should be violence? That isn't tolerance...
Edit: For clarification, I don't think it's okay to be mean to and harass people for their identity, like Bedlam apparently does in the Japanese version of the game. So if we're calling her a transphobe, sure, I get it. But I so often see the term applied to entire groups of people based on their religious affiliation who believe in the traditional two genders but have no ill will toward people who think differently. Tolerance is a two-way street, and one could just as easily call a trans person "Christophobic" or "Islamophobic" for not conforming to their world view. Respect is a two-way street, and if Tris' definition of a transphobe is just anyone with Conservative views, that's a harmful generalization I can't get behind--especially if we're making jokes about fighting them. Most religious people, like LGBT+ people, are just trying to exist. You can believe in trans rights but still be as bigoted as Bedlam. Food for thought. That's not to say I even know what Tris' definition of a transphobe is, but I know how it often gets used.
Being bigoted isn’t respectable
denying someone’s existence simply because they wish to identify as another gender isn’t tolerance either poo poo, it’s not a “different opinion” hope this helps
That's what I am ( Basicly) saying
It's called the Paradox of Tolerance,
"in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance"
So disrespecting someone's identity is an opinion now like botter?
I love how They* says on the end "what do you guys think" even tho you are forced to either be positive or don't comment at all
*they
Yeah and?
this comment seems pretty negative assuming what you said is true
Doesn't matter to me, I'm still gonna bully these babies either way 😂
also they're asking your opinion on the game not on trans people
1:18 Vivian needs to be fixed
And yet they still call the Crystal Stars (collective) as "Crystal Stars", even though the Japanese name of the collective is "Star Stones" and one of these Crystal Stars is ALSO called the Crystal Star.
...couldn't they have renamed the collective as "Gemstars" or something? That's way less confusing than having a collective called the Crystal Stars and one of said Crystal Stars ALSO being named the Crystal Star.
Much like the Chaos Emeralds... it's just a better sounding name imo as much as both don't really make much sense.
@@KaiserGX None of the Chaos Emeralds have individual names like the Crystal Stars. I believe "Crystal Stars" should've been renamed because one of the Crystal Stars is LITERALLY called the Crystal Star (both in English and Japanese), which is really inconvenient. The other Stars are the Diamond Star, Emerald Star, Gold Star, Ruby Star, Sapphire Star and Garnet Star. This weirdness doesn't exist in the Japanese version, where the Crystal Stars (collective) are called "Star Stones". I understand that name is kinda lame, but I think something like "Gemstars" could've worked instead.
I grew up with Vivian being a girl and ALWAYS will be.
God I hope not
which god? and she will be
[image of Beldam with a text bubble above her]
I find this more amusing than anything
Vivian = Birdo so?
Haha time to not look at the comments 🫠