Guest Disagrees with Matt... So Matt Calls Jimmy Akin w/ Charbel Raish
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2022
- Full Episode: • How Islam Led Me Back ...
Often things will get interesting past the 2 hour mark. This episode was no exception with a heated discussion about the relative orientation of maps. Charbel explained after the show that he thought Matt was saying ONLY Australia would be flipped, which could not be the case. Looking for clarification, Matt calls Jimmy Akin.
Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World: / jimmyakin
Charbel's Fascinating New Book: www.amazon.com/How-Islam-Led-...
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Matt's right... I'm actually shocked everyone else is having a hard time with this. 😂😂😂😂🤦♂️😭
Ikr 😂
No one is having a hard time.Once a reference system is established, no one denies that it could have been otherwise with other reference standards. There is no point in changing what is established and promulgated for centuries.
Yes this is exactly what I was thinking
Matt is right. One of my favourite stories of teaching maths is where I flipped the diagram 45 degrees, and said, "This makes the problem so much easier to solve." My student's jaw dropped. "You can DO that?" Always ask: What nuance am I myself imposing on this situation?
You've reminded me of Calc 3 and switching between different coordinate systems to make different problems easier to solve.
Do you remember what problem it was ?
@@jeremysmith7176 lol I remember that. Ya gotta get creative when you're solving problems in 3 dimensions
As an Aussie, I would like to say that Australia isn't "Down Under" - It's "Up Over"!
I would also like to add that I will happily attend your show and talk about my conversion to Catholicism as an adult Lutheran if you offer me a schooner of Tooheys New, some Cheezels, and a Freddo Frog 🤣
It’s actually Out Back 😏
Not sure if you thought all the consequences through. Once we do the switch of south being up, you'll have to bend *down* to tie your shoes, instead of up, as you do now.
Also, all golf balls have to be recalibrated to not fly off into space! 😂
Then why do they always have to hold on to things so they don't fall of the face of the earth?
do you mean to say that Men at Work (the band) is NOT infallible? Heresy!
Matt is wrong. I didn't study physics but I'm biased and don't want Australians to start a revolution, er, a prison riot I suppose.
LOL! I was going to make it similar comment.
I sort of knew the answer already, that map orientation was arbitrary, but the detail that Jimmy Akin went into off the cuff and the precision of his answer was impressive. Really added value to the discussion.
Respectfully, that "you'd have to send the spaceship out upside down" made me chuckle a bit
Matt is correct. I studied engineering and in Physics class we learned that there is not a solid reference point for directions. All of this is defined referentially to how we want to depict reality.
Additionally, there is no cardinal points in the universe, and no edges… if you get in a spaceship and travel in any direction to find the edge, you will end up by reaching the starting point…
The CMB background radiation having axes of symmetry around the ecliptic and the axis of the earth is evidence contra to this claim.
Historically, we have been fixed to the Earth's surface, as such we had readily observable directional references for East and West. Regardless of what you call them, East is where the Sun rises and West is where it sets. If we had historically lived in the far polar regions this breaks down, but for the vast majority of the globe we at least have two fairly fixed directions.
Observing the stars we then get another direction, that being toward the axis of rotation. Northern hemisphere people have Polaris, Southern hemisphere people are not so lucky as to have a visible pole star, but Southern sky observers would have noticed that the constellations revolve around a common point.
Jimmy is just so wicked smart! He would be my phone-a-friend if I were to find myself as a contestant on a game show.
I got Matt’s point immediately. I don’t see why it’s hard to fathom. I’m in Victoria . If I was at the bass straight swimming with no sight of any land. And I believed I was heading north and hit Tasmania. That would be north for me. That’s on the premise that maps never suggested what’s north or south. The compass points to north only cause we call it north . We could easily call it south.
And one day soon, Matt shall realize that Ohio is truly the center of the universe. As the saying goes, "Ohio, the heart of it all."
Had same conversation with my brother 10 years ago! He had a guest house in Scotland. After a few beers I persuaded him to turn his map of Scotland upside down (relative to the accepted convention). He left it that way and regularly had to politely explain his reasoning to guests who pointed out that his map was upside down.
You should invite Edward Feser as well. The man is just a damn intelligent Catholic Philosopher.
He had him early on . #79 and #80
I adore how random this segment is 😂
Mr. Raish is like "what did i get myself into"
Interesting discussion. What I stumbled upon is that very early "western" maps were already north-up. By western I mean from Mesopotamia and Babylon westward.
This video was a great break from all the chaos. Thank you.
It’s been awhile since I’ve listened to Jimmy Akins Mysterious world... and now I have to go listen to him next. 🤣
A lot of older maps are oriented with the east upwards, which makes a certain kind of intuitive sense. The oldest map of Virginia is oriented with the west up. I have suspicions about the motive for the latter being to encourage further exploration, but that is just a guess.
In a sphere every cardinal point could be marked as North, it depends on the point of view. You can say a point of reference, as in that case the reference is you.
You can say front is North, so back is South, and so on. And to be consistent, you have to use some other references to get it right every other time. You can use the environment around to mark directions relative to what you defined as cardinal points, or you can also create an artificial tool that will give you reference for each point.
But we have a rotating sphere(oid), which imposes a reference diameter.
FUN FACT: every civilization drew maps as we do. Somehow all of them chose what is north up and south down. Ive heard it somewhere and i looked at ancient maps and it appears to be the case.
It really makes you wonder about why. The only thing I could think of off the top of my head is some kind of subconscious thing about where the sun rises and sets and orienting ourselves through that
Do we have a large sample size from the southern hemisphere?
I thought about that too and wondered why.
I imagine this is related to how animals can intuit migratory patterns. When you are on the Earth birth is up and south is down regardless what you call them.
But change your reference point to space beyond the planet and there’s something to be said about no actual north and south we currently are aware of.
I find myself recalling a study on rat kits who developed in the womb in space and when on earth and out of the womb, they could not right themselves if, say, submerged in water. They had no sense of direction perhaps because in space that was not necessary to develop cuz no gravity pull we have here on earth.
Similarly on the planet we have north and south clearly as we have numbers to count. Granted numbers hold up a bit better when we zoom out from just earth but similar concept I think.
Interestingly when I lived in China, I discovered that their ancient maps are upside down. When we say "North, East, South, West" The Chinese actually say "East, West, South, North". They base their system off the sun. The sun rises in the east, and heads to the south during winter. So as south was their reference point, I guess that's why I've seen a lot of ancient Chinese maps which are upside down.
I have often wondered how much Jimmy Akin has to prepare before answering the weird and random questions he gets asked on weird question hours and the like, seems to confirm here that he is quite capable of off the cuffing stuff.
I LOVE JIMMY! HE'S A WALKING ENCYCLOPEDIA! SO SMART! SO KIND! BEST PERSON TO CALL!
It’s really good I don’t have Jimmy Akin’s cell number or I would be doing this all the time
The reference point goes back to the magnetic poles of the earth. North: the magnetic lines comes out of the end and begin to wrap around the earth. South: the magnetic lines go back into the earth.
The magnetic north pole is close to what we have subjectively defined as the geographic north pole. That's why north is north.
If during the creation of the compass they had defined north as being where the lines go into the earth then yes what we know as north would become south
Matt you are correct! In space there is no up or down.
But there is a left and right apparently, if I understood that correctly?
@@anglaismoyen Our galaxy has a rotational axis.
@@anglaismoyen left and right compared to what? In space there is no direction up down left right. You also cannot have a “center” of the universe assuming that the universe is infinite. I don’t know! I think I need to get back to work!
@@jrorganbuilding Something to do with the rotational axis thing. I don't know either lol
If you were the only object in space, yes, there would be no set reference directions. But once you introduce a relatively large object like a planet, "down" is going to point to the center of mass of that controlling mass.
What about the magnetic pole? I know we could have called south north and North south but the magnetic pole does make a distinction between the poles like Jimmy had mentioned in regards to east and west.
But also, aren't north and south respective to east and west given E&W relationship to which way the sun sets and rises
Ancient maps of Israel have the same choice of directions (their north is our north, their south is our south), but not the same orientation - north is not at the top of the map. For them, the top of the map was east, so that the sea was at the bottom, if I remember right.
What about magnetic north? A compass doesn't point to the south pole.
I'm pretty sure the solar plane, which relates fairly closely to our poles, is actually perpendicular to the galactic plane so there's not really a direct relation between our north and galactic North
no one mentioned the magnetic field that somewhat defines north? Although to be fair, it does shift and move around and is therefore not exactly geographic north. The answer really has more to do with what is "up" and what is "down". Down is towards the center of the earth, which doesnt really make sense when you're looking at a projection of earth in space, in that case "down" is just whichever direction is down relative to your eyes.
According to Wikipedia in its article on "North":
"The notion that north should always be "up" and east at the right was established by the Greek astronomer Ptolemy. The historian Daniel Boorstin suggests that perhaps this was because the better-known places in his world were in the northern hemisphere, and on a flat map these were most convenient for study if they were in the upper right-hand corner."
This seems similar to the bias in Cartesian/analytic geometry, where the more commonly used numbers (i.e., the positive numbers) are positioned in the upper-right corner portion of the plane relative to the origin.
Wikipedia :you mean the "source" that changed the definition of recession and locked out the ability to add/change/modify... Yup, trust em: not
Things are so upside down nowadays, maybe if we collectively decide to just flip earth right now, our reality will also flip :)
north and south is in reference to earths rotation, but wich to call north and south is arbitrary
I think we need to break out a model globe and popsicle stick figures.
It would the greatest exposition in our age to find all Jimmy Akin-like around the Globe. I'm sure there is in every country.
Now Australia looks like a fluffy cat standing on the shelf!
I am amazed by the brilliance of this Matt Fradd!
True North, magnetic pulse. North is always North. You can also use the stars, the North Star. Just listened to Jimmy Aiken I guess I'm wrong LOL.
Fun fact what star is the north Star changes.
@@jeremysmith7176 no, it doesn't.
@@Aurealeus On a millennia long time line.
This is awesome 😄 best conversation
If the North pole were to be South, would the clock direction now be counter-clock-wise? Toilet water drains counter-clock-wise now in "southern" hemisphere.
When you flipped Australia upside down I thought you were going to say that it looked like America
A fat cat
Galileo, newton, taicho brahe, and many other astronomers viewed prograde as ccw and retrograde as cw. What we call north would always be "upright" because astronomers would have insisted since it is the upright orientation for a prograde orbit. Map makers aside. Given CCW is generally considered a positive direction for rotational motion and torque in engineering and science, I would argue that it may have stayed that way even if astronomers we're at the southern hemisphere.
Would australians have invented a clock that moves counter-clockwise?
This was great, and Matt is right.
North and south also have to do with the rotation of the earth on its axis. I guess you could flip them, but you wouldn’t put the poles at some point east vs west.
My theory is most maps were drawn after the invention of the compass, which points to what we call north, so maps were drawn to reflect this point of reference as “up” on a piece of paper. That’s why most maps have a compass rose that denote these directions. The magnetic polarity of the earth is objective and our ability to detect that polarity is a physical reality in the compass. I once read that some maps before this would draw the direction that the sun “rose” as “up” . I don’t think the Europeans just thought they were on top of the world, why not the center? We should look at maps from other people that predate advanced European civilization .
I agree. I don’t think it has anything to do with what they mentioned. It’s a moot argument anyway. I don’t think the world globe would have looked any different if Australians made the first map. But Let’s say Matt was correct, they would still have to change it back to how it is now, once mankind went to space and saw yep Australia is actually on the bottom and N America and Europe is on the top of the globe. It’s just common sense.
No, the compass does not have any preference between north or south. You think that it "points north" because you might have one that has an N-mark on the north and no S-mark on the south.
The compass is just a tiny magnet with *two* poles (which we arbitrarily call north and south) and it aligns with the magnetic lines between the poles. These lines are un-directed. In other words: the compass needle has two ends: one that always points north and another that always points south. You can chose which one you mark or leave unmarked, but you cannot have a compass that *only* points north, just as you cannot have a magnet that has only one pole.
What does your compass point to as north downunder?
Polaris may be used for north/south or a physicist/mathematician would the “right hand rule” when your fingers point east (rotation) your extended thumb points north.
But if you defined north and south oppositely, the system would obey the left hand rule.
Has no one ever heard of a compass? There is such a thing as magnetic north so we'd still draw maps relative to magnetic north
Finally..... after reading through dozens of comments of people making uneducated
guesses, somebody besides myself (Josh) actually knows the correct answer.
The magnetic north can be the magnetic south
Medieval maps used to show the east at the top.
In the famous "Blue Marble" photo of the Earth taken on Apollo 17, the South Pole was on the top of the original image. It was rotated 180 degrees for publishing so that north would be on top. Remember, there is no inherent up or down in outer space. It's all just relative to your own frame of reference.
Maps are oriented with north at the top because compasses point north.
Jimmy Akin is the best ! He’s dialed in. God Bless !
I agree with Matt.
In space one doesn't have a floor or base, if you're looking at the Earth from space, it would depend of how you are positioned, on how the Earth looks, right?
But what about the north pole? Isn't it magnetically stronger than the south axis point, hence how we can make compasses which point north?
Sure, if Australia colonized the world, we might say it made sense that compasses point 'down', since things get pulled DOWN by gravity, but there is an objective difference betwee north and south.
I maybe be wrong but doesn't the Earth's magnetic poles actually flip around?
The fist compass pointed to the south because it was made in China.
This is taught in middle school geography. I'm shocked that no on on the set knew this and were amazed that Jimmy would know it.
Interesting discussion. If someone believes map alone, will say that it is clearly north is up and south is down.
North also has to do with Polaris btw there is no south, and there is not official northern point. If we were in Antarctica or the arctic the compass would go crazy and we wouldn’t know where north was. Polaris would help us know where we were
The fact that Polaris is positioned directly over the North Pole is sort of a happy coincidence. And you can't see Polaris in Antarctica, the whole Earth is in the way
Some cultures in East Asia actually use East as the top of their maps!
You gotta start with “what is up?” In space there is no “up”. There are north and south poles, but it doesn’t matter which way is up. If you flip the map upside down and call south north, it’s still a correct map, and Australia is north, hence Matt’s first point
I don't understand why the conversation went to space. Just
The compass needle would suffice. North is not in relation to other places, it is decided based on the magnetic field around earth. You could draw the map anyway up, but North would always be North while magnetism of the Earth's core remains, which makes it a convenient way up.
Yes. Europeans made the maps and they prioritized what they knew first as the top.
We think up on a map is north and down is south because it’s the how we first experienced it.
One of the presocratics draw the first world map, and the reference por the north was the polar star, because is the only star that was the entire year was that star, so that's why he used the north as a reference, if the first would have been made in australa it would have been with reference of the south star and the south would be in top
In India maps are south-side-up. It's kinda trippy.
An upside down Australia looks like America (the contiguous states) the morning after a night of heavy partying.
I need to hear Jimmy talk about the Hollow Earth theory 😬
seems more like he used the perspective from inside the ground.
"Youd have to send the satellite up upside down" 🤣
No it wouldn't. Astronomers always thought positive rotation was counter clockwise around the sun, thus what is north still would have been north
Look at Egypt the lower Nile is north of the upper Nile.
I agree with Matt, the idea of the orientation of the map being objective is not true
Who is to say that the world rotates on a horizontal instead of vertical axis.
Jimmy is the man!!!!!
Well if you are going to say that East and West are defined by the sun's rising and setting then you could define North and South by their relation to East and West. For example, North is always right of West and South is left of West. This would make none of the directions arbitrary.
dont know comments but: right answer: Sun effects to the dirrections so you cant arbitorily decide shout and west in the way that sun keeps anyway rising from the east and going down to west. also magnet always showing same place. but you can place yourself in the center of the map.
2 greats ⭐️👍🙏❤️
East is really true North as it is referred to as Orient that's where we get Orientals and Orientation from, also East is where the Sun rises from.
Upside down Australia looks like the US with big Florida, a gargantuan Maine, and a dinky Texas.
What an EPIC crossover event 😂If reincarnation was real, I would be convinced that Jimmy is St. Thomas Aquinas reincarnated 😜I love both Pints With Aquinas and Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World. Keep up the great work, and may God bless you!
Jimmy is amazing.
And perhaps it is in relation to the moon!
…Wood. And what else also floats?
🤦♂️ please! Come on!
To be fair, 90% of the world population lives in the Northern Hemisphere, so don't put all the blame on the Europeans for putting the north on top. Also Jupiter would just look weird with the great red spot in its upper half.
Jimmy is gonna be the patron saint of knowledge one day
North is based off the North Star (Polaris) reference which is based on the earth’s spin on its axis which is why we have the orientation of East and West. There is no south Star reference. This was discovered a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I’m disappointed JA didn’t get that.
Is there something Jimmy Akin doesn’t know?
How to resurrect the dead? Though I'm not even sure about that. He's basically the gospel of truth in my house!
@@LocalGinger773he probably knows. He just doesn’t want to do it.
@@ModernLady fair enough
I agree with Matt’s assessment of the relative locations of north and south.
Have you thought of getting Ryan Montgomery on? He’s dedicated his life to hacking into sites and exposing sexual predators
Mr. Akins has no equal.
What is rotating, the Earth or the universe?
It is my understanding that North only became up once the compass was adopted. Before the compass was adopted "up" for Europeans was East. That is because Jerusalem was East of Europe. However you cut it Australia is South of North. But with the old pre-compass system maybe, since Australia is East of Jerusalem, it is "up." With this being said maybe you can think of Australia as a being a little closer to heaven than locations to the West?
Why did nobody talk about the fact that australia south-side-up looks like a cute running dog.
This was fantastic.
It may be arbitrary however magnetically the North Pole is located in the Hudson Bay. North is a magnetic location. The south pole also moves parallel with the north pole on the complete opposite side. for a great reference pick up a compass. Sorry Matt but you are wrong on this one. Love your show and hope yall have a great day!!
LOL. No Matt because of the Axis line, we know what North and South is, it is not because of who drew the map. LOLOL
Theres no gravity in space, directionailty is all relative.
North is in reference to the magnetic north lol
Yes, that's the "in relation to... and reference to" Matt was looking for.
Tim Tam are my favorite cookie even though they are more like a candy bar. If you haven't tried Tim Tam, you are missing out. They are so delicious!
Matt is correct. I studied physics, and I’m good at visualizing and manipulating things in space in my mind. Matt has it.
To complicate it further and add to Jimmy’s answer: the rotation of the earth has an angular momentum that, in the standard right-hand coordinate system, points to what we call the North. On the other hand (pun), the choice of the right- vs. left-hand coordinate system is also arbitrary, and it only matters that one always uses the same coordinate system throughout one’s calculations. One could use a left-hand system that has the angular momentum point south, but right was chosen first (presumably by the majority right-handed people) just as the maps directions were determined by the first to define them.
THEN as a physicist, you should be able to draw the Minkowski diagram from the point of view of the "traveler"(the "moving"coordinate system. Do homework!