Brit Soldier Reacts to If war came - Ep. 3: Death on the Sea Om kriget kom Döden på havet
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
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As a response to if Soviet would have invaded Sweden back then ( 1965-1985 ). Well for starters, back in the 60's early 70's Sweden had around 1000 planes and an army mobilized around 850.000. Even if Soviet/ Russian doctrine has low to none value of soldiers or life, the fact that decimation of troops and materiel plays a part. It would have been too expensive for Soviet to invade Sweden at that time.
As Sweden also shut down their nuclear program in the 60's with the promise of nuclear protection by USA takes that out of the equation. At this time there is not much to compare to the warfare of today i.e Russia Ukraine thought Russia stick to old WW2 tactics like meat waves and indiscriminate artillery and bombing.
However, if the Soviets would have attacked at that time I think that this series do picture a somewhat plausible scenario however I do not think the time frame would be correct I think it would take longer time for Russia to handle both the Air Force and the Navy for starters.
As an example, the Soviets were very afraid of the Swedish armed forces at that time, Swedish Air Force was superior to anything Soviet had. But during the U-137 incident the Russian Navy was approaching Swedish territory to free the submarine. It was not the Air Force that made them turn, it was the fact that Swedish Coast Artillery for the first time lit up all their radars/ targeting systems on the Soviet fleet and they knew they were gone if they've got over the territorial border. During mostly the 70-90's ( peaked in the 80's ) the Soviets often sent submarines with Spetsnaz divers into Swedish coast and yes I've been hunting them live during my career. It shows the importance of Sweden for Soviet/ Russia and it has not change, the importance that is. But now in NATO it has screwed that plan for Russia.
Later the Cost Artillery ( includes the Coastal Rangers that is based on Royal Marines ) was merged with the Navy and became the Marine.
I started my military service in 1981 ) Coastal Ranger/ Cost Artillery ) and got a taste of that threat from Soviet and later Russia, it was very real and I have during my career really experienced the change since then. I'm still active officer but close to retirement, as a matter of a fact I could have retired years ago but the love for my work and the importance of a defense is more valuable then me retiring.
Spent one month at the Muskö Base while based at Berga Naval School -79 during my National Service. Being on watch on the starboard wing I suddenly experienced a submarine surface approx 100m from our ship going alongside in the same direction. That was in a narrow straight too.
I remember as i young boy all the "students?" from Warzaw Pact countries trying to sell their art and paintings at peoples doors here in Linköping where the SAAB Aerospace factory is located. At that time we also had one airbase and three army bases in town!
Unfortunatly a couple of minutes of the presentation of the musköbase was skipped over. In my opinion one of the more impressive places I got to experience during this era. Shu/Shä
The lack of a mission command tradition in the Soviet armed forces probably would have reduced their ability to take full advantage of a numerical superiority but Sweden compared to the Ukraine having less than a quarter of Ukraine's population would still have struggled in comparison. That being said Sweden had been preparing for a Soviet invasion for over 30 years at the end of the cold war compared to only 10 years of preparation in the Ukraine had after Crimea.
There is an interesting article available online "Trigger-Happy, Autonomous, and Disobedient: Nordbat 2 and Mission Command in Bosnia" that touches on how the defense doctrine used in the Swedish armed forced translated to a real conflict scenario.
The Warsaw-pact on the 70's and 80's was on another level. During the Brezniew era the Russians was very lethal and invested huge sums of money into the military and for shore the Swedish military would have had enormous problems to withstand an invasion. I did my military conscript duty 1987. And at that time our whole defense could mobilize 800.000 men in 2 weeks, but despite that, no one believed that if we don't get help from NATO we would have been totally invaded in 3-4 weeks at most. So the Warsaw-pact and Russians were frightening at that time.
yep, the whole point of the military was basically to delay the invasion either long enough to gather international support or to organize a resistance movement.
That was the worst case scenario based on the “myth” of the Soviet superiority. The scenario we all believed in since the Soviet propaganda apparatus had convinced us to. I’m however not so sure this would have been the case, knowing how bad the Russian military apparatus is functioning relative to the resources at disposal. During the Cold War, Sweden spent roughly 4% of the GDP on defence (twice the NATO requirements) and Sweden had among the strongest economies in the world. The Swedish defence was many times stronger than it is today. Also, the planning and preparations was on another level compared to anywhere else. In hindsight, the Soviet Union would have struggled. They would perhaps eventually have nuked Sweden to pieces but I’m not sure they would have been able to take full control of the country. At least not before friendly nations would have been involved. It would have been impossible for the Soviet Union to win if their recourses were spread out on several fronts. This is perhaps why the aggressions never came but in a few places where the risk was low and where there already was friendly elements that welcomed them.
I think old soviet would have had some of the same problems Russia now face, with corruption etc. IE they will punch way below their weight on paper. That said it wouldnt have been fun for us.
@@Jonsson474 it wasn't due to the Soviet propaganda though. It was disclosed in the book "Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA" that the CIA had been ordered by Reagan to create reports claiming that the USSR was military stronger than what they actually were to suit his narrative. So the CIA started doing that and thus all official reports said that the USSR military capacity was vast and increasing quickly.
@@andersmalmgren6528 The Soviet in the 70-80's was in no way as corrupt as Russia is today. If you got caught steeling in Russia during when Breznjew was "President"? You were more or less screwed for a very long time. They did not have anyway near the corruption level that they have today. If you risk being shot for petty crimes? It has an tremendous effect on peoples will to risk getting caught.
Certainly corruption existed, but it was higher up in the hierarchy and often the same people who had the power
(to make the problem go away,) like some gulag in Siberia. I'ts not like now, conscript-soldiers stealing the reactive-armor on the T-72's or stealing engine parts from state's own vehicles. A crime like that would have granted you 12 years in Siberia (which was the same as a death sentence) The climate in USSR was North Korea like in comparison. I would even argue that the Soviet military was the ONLY THING that actually was working in the USSR.
I remember when i did my military service as a conscript, our captain showed us a film from one of their gigantic baltic exercises, (made in propaganda purpose off course) but we saw how the Russians would have
acted during a Swedish invasion. They had hoover-crafts that swallowed 1000 soldiers a piece. And they swept in over the Swedish archipelago in 60 km/h, and hardly slowed down when they reached land.
The amount of war-ships and landing crafts were in the hundreds, if not thousands? It was like watching D-day in 1945. And then the armadas of hundreds upon hundreds transport-planes air dropping Bmp:s in giant parachutes.. I remember that we looked at each other thinking. Should we? We immature conscripts fight against THAT? No it went from the feeling of playing "fake war-games" to all of a sudden crap! This could happen.
And they would NOT have invaded with conscripts. It would almost certain have been russian marines/coastal-jaegers and other proffessional soldiers. And 48 hours of bombarding of all our coastal artillery, power-staions communication masts etc.
No,. Resistance like the Vietnamese did would probably have been our only hope..
Sorry for rant.
Swedish Fighter pilot series next please!
The fact that we had that defense during the Cold War certainly ensured that there was no invasion.
Im sorry to say that i believe that we wouldve been completely overrun in a few weeks if there indeed wouldve been an invasion
Ive been in the Muskö base. Back in the 80s. And in 86 i was a conscript on Gotland. P18, tredje Beredskapskompaniet. Ksp-skytt
I've been down inside the costal artillery. It was so cool.
Visby and Gotland got us covered. Thanks for the video!
Thanks mate.
I saw that you cut out the Muskö base. 👍
8:50 Since that "base" is supposed to be nuclear-war safe and all that, I suspect that oven is far more than made for soldiers who return with dubious substances in them. That's might have been the new form of graveyard in a doomsday scenario. You die, you get oven'ed, all of you.
Those are indeed ovens for burning our dead and contaminated materiel
We looked at the Jägare (Jaegers) in a different series.
The ones seen as the most elite of our conscription system where the Coastal Jaegers and within them a small even more elite group of Attack Divers.
Now. Everybody where important and there where really hard and prestigious other Jaeger positions.
The guys in the most north of Sweden who where to be behind enemy lines:
It is tough just living there.
And within the Attack divers there was another Elite tier: the EOD-Divers.
A swede here, old enough to remember half of the cold war.
Question: Were we and Finland really the only countries outside of NATO that prepared in a similar way? It would seem strange to me if that was the case.
This is what I grew up with ❤ 🇸🇪
I served in SWE infantery -91 to -92, at any given moment we had 125 000 men at arms, within 72 hours we would have 500 000 men equipped and ready. A few days more and we would have a milion.. all men from 18 to 45 would suit up. My mom and dad was both volontairs in national guard, very different times…
All public buildings like schools had one function in peace time and one function in war. I went to a school that was built 1980, it had oxygen outlets next to the blackboard. It was a field hospital in war time with bomb shelter and al the trimmings.
Sweden has the most islands in the world ( approx. 267,000). And the second most islands in the world go to our neighbour Finland. An enemy in the northern and middle part of the Baltic Sea will have a hard time.
The Soviets where on a completely different level then Russia today.
Russian capabilities has been eaten up by the underfunding after the Soviet collapse and the corruption that was created during that period making the increased funding in recent times less effective.
The USSR was a peer competitor of the US, more so then even China is now.
Russia isn't even close.
And the main reason Russia is able to fight at all is stockpiles from Soviet times.
While I'm fairly sure that NATO was stronger then the USSR back then too they'd be more then a match for Sweden during their peak.
There is a slight misconception here. Six squadrons of the Attack Viggen aircraft actually were under the direct command of the supreme commander, with the overall main purpose to attack that invasion armada, and especially so the transport ships, with air-to-sea missiles (towards the end, the RBS15).
So, there were 60 attack aircraft, 28 missile boats and for a long time 12 submarines dedicated to this role.
In hindsight, the Soviets never would have been able to pull off an attack on the Swedish mainland. The problem was the island of Gotland. A mobilized reinforced armoured brigade and plenty of coastal artillery were defending the island.
Regarding the attack aircraft, it was calculated that each sortie would make for 25 % losses of aircraft., So yes, the 1. Attack Group, as it was called, was an expendable force.
The seventies prepps beer, firearms and lots of good food and the weekends are spent making ammunition.
Swedish youth join fight clubs, eat healthy, exercise and stay in good shape.
Swe Army makes big bets again.
"Folkhemmet" is back 👍
🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
We had a secret nuclear weapons program and our doctrine was that an attacking superior enemy would be dragged along in the event of doom. What says we don't have a similar agenda today?
I think sweden is hard core. Many other nato countrys just look god on paper.
Love the series. I think we in Sweden would have had to delay the soviet units. Delay delay delay until support from other countries. Where would Ukraine be today without support?
Heh. As a conscript in 1995 I applied for duty to the Coastal Artillery only to learn it was due to be disbanded.
USSR was a whole other beast than what Russia is today and not alone with her Warsaw Pact member states. Swedish war plans made during the Cold War Sweden prepared for the worst-case scenario. Total isolation and no help from anyone in which the USSR attacked "neutral" Sweden with all its might - Even counting in WP using tactical nukes. At the same time, we worked hard to get guarantees of help if we were attacked. The nuclear weapons program Sweden had was cancelled when the US guaranteed Sweden units for defence if we were attacked. And we trained, and still do, all troops in mission command tactics which are most favourable when you use a small force against a larger one. The free war doctrine is fully based on commanders and soldiers knowing how to implement these tactical fundamentals. And was it Sweden, being this prepared, that stopped any of this from happening. Any conflict between NATO and WP???
I think in the 80's the threat was much more real. The sides was much more closely matched. Only after the fall of the Sovietunion did their decay start with rampant corruption, neglected maintenance and pilfered materiel. Perun has a very good video on how corruption destroys armies. From what we know now, if the US cant find the Swedish submarines the Russians sure as hell wouldnt be able too.
Remember this Sweden actually had a rather large navy and submarine fleet back then. Lots of minelayers and fast moving hard hitters. Today we have but a fraction sadly still one of the most high tech gears. We can still bite a big chunk out of russian navy but yeah that would be a losing battle. But hey there are no army in the world that would manage to subdue Sweden on it own land it would cost too much basically.
If this would ever happen Finland would be part of and help and I believe rest of nordic countries too.. we are strong nordic countries now together.
They might have been strong up until a couple of years ago. Considering they are stealing speed camera electronics in Sweden just to equip their vehicles says a lot about where they are today...
Well! It’s time to remind about the special Swedish feature that noone in Sweden has the authority to give up fighting. Not the King, or the government or the parlament. Noone. As we say in Sweden. ”All rumors about givning up the fight are false”.
The book Secrecy: an American experiece by Sen Daniel Patrick Moynihan 98 says the us knew russia was not as strong, and we didnt need a large military, but the mic thought otherwise🤣
When whiskey on the rocks happend in early 80ties initial defence incidents happend that corroborates this depiction
You coming back to the danish Huntsmen Corps series? Love the content!
Yes mate I will be finishing that, just need to find final ones with subtitles and thank you
@@CombatReadyHQ They should be on a channel called "Mafiapanda"! - Can't wait to see it :)
@@BondiWoot ok thank you
It would seem that russia was overrated, considering the situation in ukraine. When it comes to soviet and the warsaw pact that is hard to evaluate. It feels as if sweden was counting on being the only place attacked by soviet in this scenario wich seems highly unlikely as that would leave them completly open to attacks from other directions. then again sweden was not allied to anyone and thus could not count on the help of nato in case of being attacked like the case of ukraine. USSR and the warsaw pact was much more capable then current russia though.
If the Soviet Union attacked, that would include all of Ukraine fighting on their side. It'd also include tons and tons of tanks etc that hadn't rusted away yet for the 35 years since the cold war ended.
Regarding the stranded sub in 1981, I am linking one of my absolute favorite videos talking about the subject: czcams.com/video/ucDZ2MxubeQ/video.htmlsi=MCKmiGdLZuFuwH6S
You just don't take out up to 1000 jets in couple of days
I the airforce in this fictional story had been able to stop the Soviets there would only have been one episode in this serie.
Pretty sure the whole scenario was made up just to showcase the thresh hold defense strategy. It might have happened in a similar way during a real invasion, but for example just sending out planes and pilots to die would have been a poor strategy and I doubt the real plan would have been to do so.
The whole series is like this, the hypothetical enemy is overwhelmingly strong and the "current topic" gets destroyed/fails.
Probably a uniquely Swedish thing to make a series out of, now that I think about it. Can't even brag about stuff in a miniseries-documentary about a fictional invasion. That is Swedish mentality for ya :)
Like the program, but the scenario Swedish air force is blown out in an initial aggression is just wrong. How would the russians take out all Viggens when they where hidden in the bushes, using any road strip to land and start and refuel and rearm. That would be impossible even for the Russians to take out in just one initial attack. / Micke P
They over exaggerated the fictional story because they’re more dangerous. They imagine the enemy to be the more prepared and strong they would be for an attack less than that. That’s why the whole plan invasion was over exaggerated to the stage where every little detail in the society always had a plan a Plan B and plan C. Better to prepare than underestimate.
The series is written along the lines of a worst case. Just like a scripted exercice this means everybody gets to train/be on the show.
The worst case would be something like all of the Warsaw pact invading Finland and then Sweden without NATO geting involved.
The airforce and navy have to hold off an invasion for three days, because that time is needed to mobilize everything else. By everything I mean everything, not only forts and combat units, but everything from logistics and field hospitals to a war court system ready to process POWs.
The goal of the Swedish defence during the time was to keep fighting as a regular force for 3 months, without any resuply or help from the outside world.
Alone against the reds, would have been ugly for everybody. With a little help from NATO in the air and sea any coastal invasions would be impossible to suply, and the same likely goes for a land invasion in the north. Regarding the quality of gear, training and doctrine, the red army sucked as mush as what russia got today. The gear is literaly the same.
Russia today is nothing like the Soviet Union back then in terms of military power. This fictional story is grounded in the idea that the invasion would be a full force invasion, something along the lines of what you'd see in WW2. In that case, I do believe that there is some truth to this fictional story. However, in all likelyness, it wouldn't have been a full force invasion, this conflict would have been part of a larger multi-national war and less resources would be put on Sweden. Today it is a whole nother story, even though Sweden's military is not what it was in absolute numbers anymore, I believe Russia would stand no chance against a unified Nordic defense (Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway) - with the help of NATO allies too. There's just no way. The only thing Russia has that makes them powerful militarily is sheer numbers and nuclear weapons.
Russian equipnent has been proven to be less then acceptable due to corruption and lack of maintenance but their complete disregard for human life, their own or others and raw numbers of manpower, still makes them a very dangerous enemy. They would take Sweden most likely but the swedes would hurt them really badly in the process. Most swedish equipment is developed to be a direct counter to russian gear and Sweden has had decades and decades of practise and preparing for defense. It would hurt anyone entertaining the idea of attacking Sweden.
Sovjet union is one thing, russia another. Finland with support held Soviet back. Sweden 1970- 1990 would have just held on forever against even soviet, Sweden today would do fine against todays russia, with some help.
If I adress your question in the video about Ukraine-Russia.
As always.....it's Hard to believe there Will be an invasion before it's a fact.
Ukraine heard The warnings.....but really......Will they attack? For real?!?!?
Looking back....Ukraine could have twarted The ruzzian invasion faster, but given howe determined The ruzzians are, it probably wouldn't have made a big difference.
Except on The human casualty rate....Ukraine would most likely be up as far as that goes......
Please react to Indian military 🪖
I would say that the RU army is trash and big corruption among the leaders.
Ru had an big tank storage in Luhansk i think and 83 engines was "gone" probably sold by someone, last winter 1 million winter uniforms was missing.
The ship Moskva was said to be fully upgraded with the latest, but we all know it was not. The money probably ended up in some oligarc pocket.
The world was told that the T-90 was a monster and hard to destroy. The Swedish anti tank Carl Gustav took care of the first one.
The problem for Ukraine is that Ru army just pumps in so many untrained soldiers and ofc Putin don´t care about his people, he believes that quantity is better than quality.
No wonder so many Ru soldiers falls in the meat grinder.
T-72 is rolling coffins and it seems like there is a turret toss competition in the RU army.
Ru is not even the 2:nd best army in Ukraine.