Leeper and Welded Cold Shut Old Climbing Hanger Break Tests
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- čas přidán 24. 04. 2020
- Clay Lippincott from cabrp.org/ donated some old hangers, and we broke them in our Bolt Buster concrete.
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Little 90's history: I had a friend use those "Drop In" bolts so he could unscrew the bolts/hangers after the climbs so the notorious Ken Nichols--aka "the king" from CT wouldn't find them and chop them. When he did find and chop all my friends bolts, he would press paper clips into the sleeves so you couldn't screw the bolts back in. Thank God he was one of a kind and eventually got arrested in NH for doing that nonsense.
I wasn't climbing at the time but from what I've been reading out here in San Diego we had a man going around chopping bolts at El Cajon Mountain in the late 2000's
This is actually really helping make me feel more confident in the equipment
Just a heads up, those red head drop ins are not fully installed(you can use much longer bolts once they are properly installed). You need to take a longer bolt and tighten it down as hard as you can into the drop in to spread those wings further, then remove the long bolt and install hanger. They pull out very, very easy if you just hammer tap them in place, ask me how I know... ;)
(The hammer taps just give it enough friction not to turn when you put in the longer bolt. Also I recommend using a sacrificial bolt for the long bolt the threads tend to get shredded)
I wonder if you could drop a ball bearing under the longer bolt to get better force on the spreader with less torque and thread damage.
@@kevinvermeer9011 If the bolt is too long and you screw it in tight it will separate the thread of the sleeve. The same will happen if you place a ball bearing in there first. This has actually happened to me in the old days when we used similar bolts as the Red head. which we would do now.
Or better yet, don't use those bolts.
I agree, just don't use these bolts :)
I use those in my line of work (industrial electrician) and I can attest to their hold strenght when set right. I've use 3/8 for a rack that had 9 - 4" EMT conduit with 3 500kc/mil copper wire in each. The true force comes from when the wire is being pulled through. You can tell when it is set from the sound of the ping on the hammer strike against the set tool. You can also use the hammer drill set to only hammer if need be. The wonderful thing is they also come in stainless steel. For the bolt I would use a 1" to 1 1/4" and of coarse also stainless steel.
I wish this video a million views.
Actually makes me feel way better....
Agreed!..... to a point.
Dynamic load is what I'm interested in due to the obvious more real world forces experienced as a climber.
Lol right!? Sadly, lol. But it’s good to know in case.
Yeah, except when they're held with 1/4" rusted bolts in tuft
I know right? This channel gives me such peace of mind, plus I get to watch them break things.
@@The_Ballo have faith in the rusty button head.
These videos are awesome!
Clay! Thats my buddy. So glad he submitted these. I may have pulled one of those! 😀
Mega informative man, this is excellent. Also, I dig the bolt setup in you porch. Freakin dedication, you’re the man
Thanks for that content! Satisfying feeling
I'd be curious how this applies to old and obscure routes where these are still the protection, because using new nuts/bolts/whatever on old hangers isn't quite like having an entirely old piece of protection in the wall for decades. I know it's more accessible to do it this way I'm not complaining!
It would be interesting though if you could test old bolts like this on an actual route from decades ago! Nice video
I use those drop-in anchors in my line of work (industrial electrician) and I can attest to their hold strenght when set right. I've use 3/8 for a rack that had 9 - 4" EMT conduit with 3 500kc/mil copper wire in each. The true force comes from when the wire is being pulled through. You can tell when it is set from the sound of the ping on the hammer strike against the set tool. You can also use the hammer drill set to only hammer if need be. The wonderful thing is they also come in stainless steel. For the bolt I would use a 1" to 1 1/4" and of coarse also stainless steel.
Oh man thats some good content. Maybe an idea would be testing different tie in knots like figure of eight, Yosemity, batterfly, rethreated overhand etc. I'd love to see this test
Thanks for all the great info!
I feel a collaboration with Mythbusters as well as Simone Gertz on the cards, harness up a dummy and see what the internal organ damage would be from taking a 20kn falls 😬💀🤦🏻♂️
i would do something extra sketch if i could collab with myth busters haha
@@HowNOT2 Just rewatching this episode after the Doug Robinson interview when this comment struck me... only one year since this comment and you almost have your own personal drop tower 🤘 incredible work ethic and choices Ryan! 👏 Thanks for sticking with it 👍
By far the most ingenious way of sending 'biner parts to low earth orbit. Good job gentlemen. Jokes aside, learned a lot, again.
I thought it was the skinny old bolts used with old leeper bolts that were the issue. Also cold shuts were never intended for climbing and as such the steel and the welds would never have the levels of quality control we've grown to expect.
Thanks for your great videos!
Now we can blast all sorts of metals into the neighbors' yards!! haha
The thing that blows me away is that you can use a rope to transfer the power from the ram.
Looks like I'm re rigging my boat with Spectra / Dyneema
Thanks for all your awesome content. Love this channel. And appreciate all the effort you guys have put into this information.
I live & climb in Spain. I have never seen the drop pin bolt. Based on what I see here, I don’t like them..
I notice that your tests are ideal in terms of the direction of pull, which is as it should be. I want to point out though that not all climbers think about this when they place the boats or others when they set up a belay anchor using the bolts. Sometimes the people placing the anchors have little choice in the placement. Another observation is that some bolts sustain a lot of falls, even the newest bolts can look manky if they are protecting a hard move that results in a lot of falls. I remember, back in the day, leading Sweet Jesus is Tuolumne that had a 70' runout to a 3/8" x1 1/4" bolt that one could easily twirl the hanger around with one finger. I don't know how to design a test for that or the gripped feeling about the next 70' of runout!
I don't think those welded bolts were any stronger when they were new... Really seems to come down to the quality of the weld, which would probably require a professional workshop with testing equipment to do safely and consistently. Glad they were replaced, even if I will never go climbing in Arizona.
Come to the blue mountains Australia if want to see some dodgy old bolts eg carrots, they are still taking some big whippers .
Hey guys great stuff as always, really appreciate you doing this for the community. And some laughs 🙃
Any gear from Japan you want to try breaking? Would be happy to source some stuff locally and donate it for “science”
Would be interesting to break old bolts right on the wall, the screws holding them in are also rusty and maybe way weaker, sometimes bolts looking normal from the outside but are pretty rusty in the holes
07:44 there shouldnt be rust i the middle of the weld^^ ths break test shows really nice that the welding point becomes the weak point when it starts to rust!
The rust develops when you weld. Heating metal to red hot oxidizes it. If there was no rust there would be poor penetration from the weld to the work material. Poor penetration is worse for a weld's integrity than surface rust. I can guarantee that rust is not the result of weather permeation into the welded zone.
@@gantz4u the weld is poorly fitted. There should of been more of a bevel on the end of the rod, would of allowed much better penetration. The crosssectional area of the weld is laughable.
A proper weld would be stronger than the rod. When it failed it should pull out a chunk of the base material, so you wouldn't see the pocket in the middle.
corrosion cracking in the welds is a really common failure mechanism, it occurs slowly under fatigue repeated loading. Wonder if it's worse in the east with road salt on people's boots? Are those galvanized bolts going into stainless drop-ins? Really bad idea because of galvanic corrosion.
It's not that unusual to rely on a few threads as about a bolt diameter deep is usually enough to exceed the bolt's strength but in this case the drop in casing is the weak element.
You might want to pull things in a water tank to reduce the flying objects problem.
Gdang that's some terrible weld penetration and the loops! Look at the rust in there! I'm astonished
Where you guys have bolt Buster written in the concrete you should put some concrete dye in there to Jazz it up a bit
It would have been good to test the bolts in different rock types. We did it in 2000 in the UK where as I was working. Granite, sandstone, slate, basalt and grit stone. Just for the experience though. Our own understanding. Bolting in the UK is quite frowned upon. Trad still leads the way.
here in canada its hit or miss lots of trad only mountains but also lots of sport. Personally I prefer trad when I'm home and have access to all the gear I could want. But when I travel sport is what I aim for. Hard to backpack with a full triple rack
My dudes got more holes in his patio than in Swiss cheese 😂
My favourite is open cold shut rap stations.
"Would you whip on it?!?!?" ____YES
the bolts should thread in more possibly longer threads?
The drop-in should be recessed 1/4 in and should have enough threads to press against the slug in the drop-in
Wonderful video! What driver do you use for those concrete screws? I’m considering trying those for temporary anchors for rebolting.
I use a Milwaukee m18 Fuel with at 3/8" drive. Ryan uses a 18v makita with a 1/4" drive. Mine works way better. -Bobby
HowNOTtoHIGHLINE Thanks for the reply, greatly appreciated. I just returned the M12 1/4”. Didn’t get it into hard rock. I wish I had asked earlier!
Remove a drop in anchor by drilling the wedge, just shove the drill bit down the hole. It's not as bad as you think as long as you have sharp HSS dill bits
You can also core-drill them out. Works fine, and you can put a resin hanger in the hole. We've done this a lot in the UK upgrading from SPITs (12mm OD) and these things (10mm OD).
"I got to have more threads" said Christopher Walken
Hey.my name is Pavle adn l licke your videos .firstly i teached many things from your videos but i need to learn more.the bolting bible is the best for lerning meny interesting things .i know thet it will learn me alot but there is a little problem.l am from Georgia and its hard for me to anderstend everything from the bolting bible.if you or someone will edd Georgin language it should be good.however i will read everithin.🤟💪💪😉
you can just drill the cone out with a metal drillbit to remove them
Not sure but do you guys know what the strength difference is between different types or rock and concrete? I wonder how it would affect breaking points of all types of safety gear
Well, if the hanger is breaking or the bolt is breaking, the concrete is definitely hard enough. If the concrete was blowing out on all the tests, then it would be useless
Do you guys usually put a little blue loctite on the nuts and bolts? I go crazy with loctite on everything around my house 😂.
Threadlocker glue is against vibrational loosening, it wouldn't do anything in this setup.
So I climb outside some, but I'm fairly new to it. Folks I climb with see these kinds of hangers with this rusty patina on them and pretty immediately go, "That's sketchy. I'm not climbing on that." Obviously, just a few tests aren't statistically notable, but I'm seeing consistent breaking at forces WAY over what I'd really ever be able to generate leading. Additionally, if you have a second bolt as part of your anchor (or more), even if the bolt blows, you're just gonna have a scary time, not fall to the bottom of the cliff. They've done this even in places where climbing is common, on very popular crags, where you can guarantee the bolts/hangers are getting used regularly.Are my friends overly cautious? Am I a dumb noob who really needs to ratchet up her idea of what's safe and what isn't? Help me out here.
None of those looked compromised by age tbh.
Hi. I would like to know what is the reason NOT to use aluminium carabiners on slackline.
Could you explain how to make a soft-shackle?
Thank-you.
From my understanding there is too much cyclic loading from bouncing, aluminum has weird properties such as work hardening which is when the movement of metal grains during plastic deformation causes the metal to harden and become more brittle. The increased brittleness can cause micro fractures and eventually failure.
How many Kilo-Newton's is considered safe for climbing or highlining?
Forgive me if it's a newb question but, I am what I am. I'm hoping to get into climbing this summer as I've wanted to get into climbing since the fifth grade. There is a co-op gym near me where I could train and network. So, I got that going for me, which is nice.
Someone with more accurate info please correct me, but the answer is it all depends on what you are doing!
Most climbing gear is slightly north of 22Kn, and most falls generate 1-3 Kn. The most common major climbing accident is rappelling, so if you are just sport climbing on modern routes in an area that is looked after you shouldn't really fear coming close to the Kn Rating. As always though seek our former instruction and proper guidance :)
Safe carabiners are rated to a minimum 20kn and a normal lead fall might put 4-6 on the highest piece. If you increase your fall factor you can do more, but if you actually managed to hit the anchor with 20kn your harness would probably snap you pelvis in half and hitting the ground would be the least of your worries. (I’m not even sure you could do that without hauling boulders up with you)
You are hard pressed to generate more than 6kn climbing or highlining unless you are doing some weird stuff. It's nice when there is a 5:1 safety ratio but 3:1 seems to be pretty acceptable by both communities.
Well bolts are only as strong their dowl and you are using new fowls correct? but hey interesting video! Keep it up 👍
we used what came with the product like anyone who would install them would do
HowNOTtoHIGHLINE I understand that’s the same material but the age of the dowl would make a difference than a brand new one? I am about to bolt some new routes close to my area and they use low graded stainless steel and the dowls are just like sand when I removed some of them🤔 (close to the Japanese sea side)
Why would you not use a longer bolt on the drop-in Redheads? The drop-in didn't fail, the threads did on the bolt that was too short.
Because that is what came with the bolt. I don't know anyone that is going to get a longer bolt for their drop in so we tested what people would normally do.
@@HowNOT2 you allways want 1.5 times diameter engagement for a threaded fastener. Drop ins are not supplied with bolts.
Im not an expert but i feel like if ever i pull 20 kn repelling i might have more urgent problems than the bolt busting xD
If you want to know what really works in terms of anchors in concrete or stone , go to your building department and ask for a code spec sheet or look it up on the net . The best place to do this would be a building department in california . Their codes are more stringent because of earthquakes .
Muy interesante.pero con kilogramos sería aún mejor para los que no nos manejamos con las libras
Los resultados están en kilo Newtons, ¿verdad? 1kN = ~ 100Kg.
Lo siento google transale
"What superbowl?"
The Screw on the Drop-in are too short... this is a Fact! But the thin wall of the Anchor will always be the weak spot so tight Holes (exact Diameter) are helpful. I think there is a steel ball in it, that you slam in to expand the Anchor. So its nearly impossible to remove it completely not even with a drill bit for steel because the Ball is hardened (Ball Bearing). Thanx for you're efforts!!
You shouldn't use such short bolts. Because these anchors have a wedge inside of them which gets engaged only when you screw them.
If the welds break before the metal they are shit welds
1 kilo newton = 20 pound force so 20 = 400 lbs force. I weigh like 2 bills? so what speed do I travel to generate 400lbs? I think this just proves surface rust does not generate a huge loss to integrity? I think if you broke the weld the Hanger still hangs until it bends straight and congrats?
Check your conversion.
Ryan, be accurate and consistent, you are calling hangers “bolts”. I know you know there is a difference.
Not even the right bolt for the redheads, and 23kN!
4:40 bolt must be so tall to push bottom locking pin. Too short bolt won't hold. You hammered with special device but it will release if bolt end won't support
That test with the short bolt in a much fatter hanger was not all that useful without comparing it to the same length bolt with a hanger of the right thickness. It just showed that having only 2.5 threads in is always 'not great', no matter how old the gear. But mostly what you've shown is that all these bolts are adequate even after 20 years and with the wrong length bolts. 20kN is enough that you'll break something else (like yourself).
You don’t have to yell in your backyard.
How much force do you think a 200 pound man free falling even 40 feet will generate? I will emphatically say that NONE of these tested bolts or hangers would have broken from a fall. Yes, it takes equipment that big to break any of these parts. Again, well beyond any fall energy generated by a falling body coming to the end of the rope stop. That welded loop hanger that broke in the shank, not in the weld, to put it in every day terms, likely did not break at less than 10,000 pounds. Well beyond where your seat sling would have cut you in half. Way too much "opinion" unrelated to realworld safety. Walking a highline, your greatest concern is the bolt set. Not the welded loop hanger of the bent sheet metal hanger. Have you actually measured the horizontal tensile force generated by the rope on the hanger with a guy on the line?
Your models are very , very cheap !! Use Petzl models ... And concrete is not the best material to testing bolts and nuts...Hammer taps will create micro fissurations in your concrete,
and to make a correct fixing in the rock, you have to drill a 13/14 mm hole (8cm minimum deepness), clean it well and put Sika glue in it, then a 12mm diameter threaded rustfree rod, then screw a rustfree nut of 88 kgs per square m/m + Petzl ring or plate, and you will immediately see the difference... 😉
I think you are vastly missing the point. They are testing old or incorrect gear. The bolts and hangers are breaking, which means the concrete is plenty solid for the tests. If the bolts were pulling out or the concrete breaking, then they would need to use harder rock.
@@EvanWisheropp Ok ... in this way, it's logic.But I still think that concrete is not the best material for such tests
if you want to get more kids into climbing cut the bad language
did you ever talked to the kids ? they swear more than some adults ...
I was trying to appeal to the kids ;). I'm not trying to get anyone to do anything. But if they do something I want them to educated.
Kids aren’t bolting... this isn’t made for them. If a kid is somehow mature, knowledgeable, and experienced enough to bolt, then they can probably also handle some moderate language. Also, this channel isn’t necessarily for people getting into climbing. This is digging deep into much deeper details and knowledge than a beginner level.