Climbing cams pulled over an edge! Break tests in real rock
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- We pulled a set of TCU Climbing cams out of granite cracks and broke rocks, slings and wires. These broke between 7kn and 18kn if the cam didn’t come out which is a huge range. The axial would get bent and make the lobes look all messed up!
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I think the wire breaks at less force when loaded with a carabiner directly. Always. It wasn't compromised. Every cam manufacturer will tell you that you should never clip the wire directly. And for this exact reason. The sling provides a better distribution of force to the wire keeping it from kinking and breaking like a carabiner does.
I second this.
The only reason he was clipping into the wire directly was because the sling was broken and it was the only other option.
Yeah I think that doubling a wide nylon sling on the cable instead of a carabiner would hold a whole lot more.
This!! Ryan please use soft shackles or double up some slings I bet those cams will hold a lot more
@@NateFanning Maybe it'd hold more that way, but that would be unlike what's done in climbing
The dynamometer is probably fixable. It looks like it's working, just a broken screen. Probably have to contact lineGrip since those screens tend to be custom designs, but likely a lot cheaper than a new one.
Absolutely, I would bet you they fix things like this all the time given how professionals treat their gear.
I don’t normally do the like comment thing just watch through ads to contribute, but since you broke your Dyno I’ll go extra and like and comment this time. Y’all rock thanks for what you do!
does it also help to comment on comments?
@@TheHalfBorg this create engagement
Same. I felt that feel, yo.
Yeah
Wow youre really going above and beyond, and I admire your discipline to not like or comment. pat yourself on the back there big guy.
Sorry your dynamometer broke! Love the testing in real rock, thanks for the public service guys
Glad to see some real rock tests. Appreciate everything you guys do and the quality content you put out!
Conventional wisdom on horizontals in my neck of the woods is that the biggest factors that can cause failures (thats exclusive to horizontal placements) is pendulum whips causing walking, and dual axle cams being placed too close to the edge having their camming angles messed up. Super informative video!
During this quarantine I've been thinking about save money for a trad rack. Most of my doubts about it is that trad climbing offers a different way of protection, instead of the bolts. But this video and the other one where you place the cams in a straight line showed me that a correct placement it's absolutely safe. Thank you again for this videos and all the content, makes the rock climbing experience a lot more realistic about the resistance of the gear in real life situations!
You guys provide a valuable public service. Kudos.
The pain was palpable when you broke the dynamometer. I finally figured out patreon and subscribed to be a patron. You and Bobby are great!
I died at « I’m willing to SLACKrifice them »
Sorry about the dyno but your videos are great and we place cams in horizontal cracks all the time at the gunks!!!
I can find quite a lot of videos of lab testing but actual real kit in real rock bent over edges. First I've seen and info is way more useful. Thank You. Very impressed how quick you picked that suggestion from someone's comments and made this. Feel bad for your linescale, that's a big downer. If you do a how not to test blooper video, this'll make the cut.
Edit: adding link to Metolius ultralight tricam for comparison www.metoliusclimbing.com/tcu.html you have gray and purple at 5kN, blue at 8kN and yellow, orange, red rated for 10kN. So these (except where sling ripped on sharp edge at ermm..7?) are same or better than rating. Good quality kit.
that's the info i'm looking for, how did the compare to rating. Thanks
"When we're getting KINKY with our wires", Great subject and content guys. Keep it up.
In black diamonds user manual for cams, it states that clipping a carabiner directly to the wire loop lowers the cams strength by 2 kN. Whereas if you clip into the sling, it is 2 kN stronger. I think it has something to do with spreading the force out on the wire more when its on the sling. If you clip a 1/2” wide steel carabiner to the wire loop, all the force is concentrated to a finer point, which means the wire material cant disperse the forces. When you pull off the end of the sling, A the sling can take some on the load, and B the wire loop now has the force getting spread out on a 3/4” or so area. I think that has a lot to do with why cams seem to hold more when clipped to the sling, versus direct to the wire loop.
Thank you very much for all the info on this channel...I'm really sorry for the dyno
Bro you crack me up haha, keep at it, I reckon this channel is destined for greatness
The sling is breaking at a higher force due to the force distribution on the cam wire. The carabiner creates a large stress concentration in the CAM wire causing the material to fail at a lower than previously loaded value. It's a great example of gear manufacturers making a system stronger with a weaker material! Cool stuff! Thanks Ryan and Bobby!
Thank guys for this lesson im level i rope access IRATA im so impress in rigging the pulley great content and video i love it God bless you guys 🙏♥️👍✌
Master : CHAPEAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VERY Interisting!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
BEST WISHES.
My best guess for why the wire breaks at a smaller force after the sling breaks is because the sling disperses the force over a larger surface area of the wire. When you connect a carabiner to the system even though it has a large radius the force is not dispersed as much, which simulates more of a cutting or sheering situation. Ultimately, there are a ton of factors in these tests and I really have no clue.
Sorry for your dyno! Great vid as usual.
Might want to have someone 3D print some ABS dyno covers.
this is cool to watch. I have seen cams that were left behind that look like they melted into the mountain, now i know how.
bobby is the man
thanks for breaking stuff for the climbing community
Fantastic video, I am currently climbing with those cams, so this is super useful! Thanks for keeping up the work for us, you are helping us the most.
oh no! no one told you about aliens or totems??? haha jk
All the videos you folks make sure make me trust most gear a hell of a lot more than I even did before
When looking at the stress in the wire when it is bent, think about the length of the inner and outer strands as they go over the curve. Also note that the cable is twisted, and the length of cable required for one full twist. If the bend is sharper than a few twists of the cable, then the inner strands will be slack, and the outer strands have to take all the force because they are tight. Since stress (force per unit area, psi) and strain (stretch, inches) are linearly related until you get to yield, over a sharp bend on the carabiner only a few outer strands are loaded, the rest are slack. These few strands fail at much lower force than the cable that goes over the sharp rock, because it is at an oblique angle. You observed that the strands did not fail at the same location, its probably because they "unzipped", failing sequentially, with the last ones failing in straight tension some distance from the bend. When loading with the sling, the nylon has substantial elongation before failure and it will form a radius and allow the strands of the cable to share the load better.
Excellent point...
I think this is spot on in my unprofessional opinion.
nice video! Thanks!! ;) this crack would also be nice for testing tricams. Maybe you can do another test with them one day. :)
Sorry about your dyno. That’s a real ouchie, buddy
I just watched both of your videos on these cams. I'm impressed. I use them because they are so narrow and fit in really awkward, irregular positions. But that they are that durable is NUTS. They solder the wires to the axle joints BY HAND. In the other video you broke one of the soldered seams with 15kN. That's one hell of a solder job. BTW a while ago Metolius mentioned that older TCUs (I don't remember which years, but not as old as yours) have rubber rings as spacers on the axle, which can corrode and give the lobes more wiggle room. They will swap them out for the newer metal spacers, but again that means so melt the solder joint and resoldering them. Watching your other video it doesn't to seem much of a difference how much the axle gets mutilated though...
Love this channel! I'd be interested to see how much less force it takes to pop out a cam in a downward or outward flaring constriction!
Love all your content! Hope to donate some gear soon. This video was so rad, I climb in NC alot and the whole state has more horizontals than anything else! So this was fascinating to watch. Hopefully I can send yall some Camp tricams soon because I would love to see this test with those bad boys
Thank u guys
the force is distributed over the 2 wire strands and always break where the force come together and is higher.
Looks like im only gonna place all of my cams over hard edges from now on. Excellent work as usual!
Good call! haha
My new favorite channel.
Bucket list break item?
The slings distribute the force over more of the cable, as opposed to directly clipping in with a carabiner, such that any one point in the cable is not experiencing enough shear force to break it. Meanwhile forces are adding up on the sling over a small radius from the wire. That is why you can break the cables at a lower force than the sling when you clip directly into it.
Also, you should definitely get a shadow box and frame your broken dynomometer. It would be a fitting symbol for your channel!
I love those tests! You guys are amazing! Thank you for your work.
Force over a great surface area produces a lower pressure than that same force over a smaller area. I would think the impulses change too as the sling stretches for a period before reaching the critical failure state while the carabiners do not.
Basically we're talking Steel wire, Ali, Nylon, rock, in that order, in a tensile strength test.
Nylon vs Steel, Steel wins. Ali vs Steel, Ali wins because the Steel is in wire form, made of thin individual strands and the Ali is harder in its compact form in a binner, it also makes a smaller, harder pressure point on the wire.
Gutted for you man but could of probably saved the Dyno by having the safety leashes with a bit less slack in em but, possibly just the screen that's gone so could be repairable, appreciate the effort that goes in to the tests though, now I know I'm safe AF falling on a well placed cam, cheers!
Also new website looks cool AF!
The LCD is a custom lcd so you'll have to send it back to linegrip, but it's a trivially easy for them to fix, they might do it for free or a small fee, so it should be ok :)
I find it amazing the wires don't pull out of the crimp.
Stranded wire.. - The Spiral Structure of the wire is basically acting like a chinese finger trap. - If you pull that structure from its side.. its defeating the strength of the spiral structure thus the reason it breaks at the loop.. - The Loop is still incredibly strong.. its just not as strong as the part at which is being forced to maintain its Spiral Structure via the Cross Bars.
I think the force is distributed to the two outside edges sides of the sling (given the curvature of the wires, I feel comfortable assuming the outer fibers of the sling are loaded highest/first), spreading out the force on the wires to two points, whereas a carabiner, even a big one, concentrates the force on a single point.
Thank you for all the informative work on real world gear strengths. It has honestly made me a more confident climber. Willing to trust the gear more!
Well Worth it...
I am impressed by the gear quality in this break test.
Please test Camalots like this! I’ve seen a video that made it appear that they don’t hold well in horizontal placements.
Fantastic video btw! I’ve used Metolius TCUs for decades....inspiring to see how strong they are!
great stuff as always!
Awesome episode great knowledge so stoked for going out climbing now
Us too!
15 years of whipping, probably introduces some cyclic loading therefore some mechanical creep into the steel. The lobes are probably fine as there are thick and loaded in compression. It would Interesting to pop one on an instrom and see the stress strain curve. How much they stretch to what force, not just the break strength.
I still like my TCU'S
I realize this is an expensive ask, but if you get your hands on sacrificeable cams with single stems rather than double, I would love to see how those hold up to the same test.
Good stuff. Bump for matrix.
The carabiner has a smaller area, so the pressure increased a lot over that point and that is why it breaks more easily, if you use a thick soft shackle instead of the draw or the carabiner, the cam will resist even more force.
To protect the Dyno more, put it in between the tree and the pulley). The forces of pull will be the exact same. (unless there is friction against a rock or another static part, but it will be close enough for the testing done)
Now these are the type of tests I like to see!!
So sad to see the Dyno break!
Resling and rack that puppy haha. Thanks for more awesome content.
Awesome video dude
Thanks!
Thanks for what y’all do, tried ordering coffee but shipping is crazy to Vancouver. Will buy some when the boarder opens or when I’m in Yosemite next! Also may have some 40 year old friends that may need testing. Don’t think anyone wants to whip on them anymore
I love the way you pronounce your T's
Super interesting. Sux about the dyno
The steel cable on most cams is rated for less than the slings. I think the wide slings distribute the force over more of the cable and so you can exert more force on the whole system. Once the sling breaks and you attach a carabiner you are applying all the force to a smaller area.
Note that this is probably wrong but hopefully commenting gives the video more exposure.
It'd be super cool (but I imagine super hard) if you could test u-bolts breaking in an "in gym" scenario.
So sick if you guys could some steel frame and all the diagonals and structurals and struts and then SlackSnap the u-bolt through the panels. Sounds like a huge setup :\
Ou, or even testing belay bar anchors
I´d like to see testing on Petzl Bat'inox bolts. They are rated for 50kN in either direction
Want to sponsor some? Or know of a place to source them for less than $25 a piece.
@@beaniebobh1 25$ is quite a good price. Over here they sell for 25€
So no, I don´t know a cheaper source, but would pay for one or two if @HowNOTtoHIGHLINE agrees to aquire and test them :)
If nothing else came from this video other than Ryan's crack comment at the beginning, it would still so be worth watching
I like to set the tone for the rest of the video right out the gate!
Because the area of contact between the carabiners and the wires is much smaller between the carabiners and the slings the **Pressure** on the material is much higher (Pressure=Force/Area). It would perhaps be interesting to know if/how much that could be improved with some form of strong material padding (a sling) being pressed between (not connected, just pressed between) the carabiner and the wires. This should increase how much force the system can take.
If you want a more straightforward test to how area of contact affects break resistance would be to just cut a sling longitudinally (I have no idea what would be the best way to do this) and breaktest it versus an "fullsized". Naively, the force needed should be directly proportional to the width of the sling (a sling cut in half should need half the force to break) BUT this might not be true since the point of contact with the carabinner is not straight. I suspect the 50% of a sling might take more than 50% of force to break, but I have no idea how much more.
If that's true, this makes me wonder if "doubling over" a small or cut sling (lets say 2cm) would be more effective than applying a 4cm sling of the same material, so I guess that's my suggestion (?)
sorry for the long stream of toughs rant, love your work
break test the broken line scale!
Very good
Very cool info
I would've like to see the sling being replaced with 5/8 tubular with a water knot
super cool!
Ryan you’re the man!! Love your vids dawg
Somehow trad gear always seems to impress me at how well it works.
True I always spend too much time making my cam placements "perfect". I feel like I should relax a bit on the pickiness of my placements....
just don't whip and it doesn't matter!
very interesting, thanks!
Both of the cam tests with the carabiner hooked to the wire DID break at the rock - I think ya missed it! The second one ends up with 2 longer wires and the rest cut at the middle where the carabiner was attached - you can see in the slowmo that the first wire to break is where it kinks at the rock, then a second one goes almost instantly after also at the rock, which probably allows the wire to go slightly slack and then re-tension as the carabiner hits and rips through the rest of the wires. I think it's the wires that are on the outside of where it's meeting the rock that break first - they are having to travel the longest distance because of the sharpest bend radius, which would allow that stretching. Funny how it seems intuitive it would get cut and break where it's touching the rock.
Good stuff
“If I keep saying kilonewtont, you’ll think it’s intentional and not me being hooked on phonics” 😂😂
should put a dyno on the catch rope to see what that is seeing as well.
Press F to pay respects for dyno
I'm curious about comparing tricams to spring loaded cams. Especially because I like using my tricams
for highline anchors
Someone needs to send Ryan a professional slo motion camera. Something like a Phantom camera, for slack science!
I think it breaks there, because the wire is only a single strand in that exact contact point with the carabiner. In every other point of the construction the load is shared by two strands.
Bobbys a legend support him or fuck up 😘
BREAK TEST THE DEAD LINESCALE!!
For drop testing you could get an analog dyno. It is a ring of steel with a dial gauge to measure the ring deformation. But unless there is a system to record max force in the dial gauge you need a good high speed camera to see the max value. Also some math might be involved during use. mueller-instruments.de/en/force-measurement/
or www.amazon.com/AP5-10000LB-Mechanical-Dillon-Dynamometer-Capacity/dp/B008VFGKPA
Do y’all ever do such tests in sandstone with with different/similar results? I live in Alabama and we got lotta sandstone
The whole rock was moving on the first break.
only commenting to help the algorithm. great stuff!
I don't think the Cam's wire was compromised by the sling break. I think pulling with a carab apply greater stress on the wire, because the surface of contact is smaller than with a sling. Also the wires break at the loop and not on the rock edge because of the pulley effect. But that was interesting to see
I ain’t trusting my life on those things 😂😂😂 vou andando 🚶♂️
Nooooooooo the dynamometer! 😱🥺
Awesome channel guys, seeing it on real rock is great. How are you applying force though? Be interesting to see your setup!
Get that new dyno!
Wide body shackle help with wire breaks?
For rigging we derate the cable if the shackle diameter isn't the same (or for some manufacturers next size large) as the wire diameter
science!
Compromised and area of contact
Glad you found out you were mispronouncung KN. Next step, sewn🤣🤣🤣.
Love you channel, Ryan.