Ultras, Billionaires, and Protests: What English football must learn from Germany
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- At first glance a series of protests from German Ultras aimed at Dietmar Hopp, owner of TSG Hoffenheim might not have much to do with English football. Dig a little deeper, though, and it tells us a lot about what fan solidarity can achieve.
As we take stock of our game in these football-less times, is this a blueprint for how supporters can make the English game work better for them?
#Bundesliga #DietmarHopp #TSGHoffenheim
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Leave us a comment below! - Sport
To show Redbull in this documentary is a disgrace for every fan fighting for the german football to stay as it is.
its just a disgrace for “supporters” who are afraid of slipping further down a place due to poorer athletic work.
The hatred of RB Leipzig is directed at completely the wrong people. Germany is not a role model in this regard
You Talk from Ultras and Show rb Leipzig 🤔
Watch the f****** video first and the comment!
Saubere Englisch Grammatik
P M lass Klaus Peter in ruhe!
@@pm3550 Ein Rechtschreibfehler hat nichts mit Grammatik zu tun, Klugscheißer!
KLaus Peter da ist wohl eine Ratte an Rattengift gekommen
50+1 MUSS BLEIBEN!
ja schon nur blöd dass es nichts mehr bringts wenn man Vereine wie Red Bull und Hoppenheim zulässt,
@@thefebo8987 Ich seh das so
Es gibt drei Szenarien. 1. Szenario: Fussball gehört allen Schichten und es bleibt bezahlbar für jedermann, der Fussball selber lässt weiterhin 50+1 nicht zu toleriert aber Verein wie RB Hoffenheim etc.2. Szenario: Fussball gehört allen Schichten und es bleibt bezahlbar für jedermann, Die Ultras und andere Fans kämpfen gegen Clubs wie RB Hoffenheim und Menschen wie Hopp und Kind.
3. Szenario: 50+1 kippt, weil man denkt, man sei als Liga nicht wettbewerbfähig gegenüber anderen Ligen.
Ich bin für das zweite Szenario, allein weil es fair gegenüber anderen ist. Mit gleichen Bedingungen starten. Was man daraus macht ist dann Sache des Vereins.
Ich glaube aber (leider), dass wir in Zukunft unter Szenario 3 spielen werden
@@thefebo8987 Dir ist aber schon klar, dass es auch vor Hoffenheim und Leipzig bereits Ausnahmen von der 50+1 Regelung gab?
Nein, kommt in der Zukunft an und akzeptiert das es Veränderung gibt
Die 50+1 Regel lässt doch nicht zu das Vereine ohne die dicken Sponsoren Erfolg haben. Mit 50+1 wird die Bayerndominanz bleiben und die oberen Plätze werden stets an die selben Teams vergeben werden. Das Bayern, DOrtmund und Co 50+1 erhalten wollen, glaube ich sofort. Den damit sichern sie sich ihre Stellung in der Liga.
Für die wäre es eine Katastrophe wenn Jim Knopf auf einmal all sein Geld in Augsburg investiert und die zum Top Team der Liga formt.
Denn mehr KOnkurenz bedeutet im Schnitt weniger eigene Einnahmen. DAS ist der einzige Grund warum man sich dagegen ausspricht. Glaubt mal nicht das auch nur ein Verein in dem Thema die selben Interessen der Fans vertritt. Die deutsche Fanszene blind as f*ck
The message of the video is great and clear to understand. But showing "fans" of RedBull Leipzig in the background completely ruins it. Those people are customers who support a club which destroys german football!
@@gxg3hn I agree with you on the Dortmund statement, your totally right.
It’s also really nice that the people as human beings fight against those evil things, but the people as customers of RB will never have anything to do with our passion football!!
@@gxg3hn what? What? What? Ultras are the only reason why there is hardly any racism in the stadiums. Any cases that were confirmed did not come from the ultras, but normal fans sitting in other sections. Unlike others ultras take a stand against the AfD. The banners may have been harsh, but it was the only way to start a dialogue with this greedy association
@@gxg3hn I'm not so sure about the Ultra scene of RB Leipzig at the moment. The main group called Red Aces desolved them self this year. They were the group that fought against Racism, Sexism etc. and the fan scene of RB had troubles with right wing fans in the past as well.
I'm with you on the fact that clubs like Bayern or Dortmund have become capitalistic companies but there still is a major difference to RB. These clubs have always respected the 50+1 rule and to this day their members own the majority of the clubs. On top of that, they were founded as football clubs not as a marketing product and their members still have the right to participate in the club and its actions. Unlike RB Leipzig, where all the members are workers of Red Bull and they only have a very small number of members anyway.
@@gxg3hn even more reason to hate them
@@gxg3hn football is not simple that you can be sure that one football model work for everyone , fan ownership models have failed as well while owner models have worked as well , There should be freedom to choose which model you want . I think FFP is failing in doing their job and is being used to run bias propaganda of elite . They should do proper work to check on clubs whether they are ran in a sustainable way and only then we can see a stop in clubs being closed .
Don't show clips from RB Leibzig . This is also a club who destroyed the 50+1 rule !
Everyone likes to rip on Leipzig, but they aren't the ones who have completely monopolized the Bundesliga. Even Leipzig is never able to beat out the machine of Bayern, who have completely destroyed competition in Germany.
We in Germany don't want the same commerce as in England. We have our huge fan culture, great tradition and much more that's all what a real football need.
The supporters always have the power, even if 50+1 is repealed, the power remains with the supporters.
This rule is only not being overturned because the top clubs fear further competition and the associated income
50+1 is not a rule for maintaining any structures, but rather a preservation of income
Excellent, this is just what British football fans need to see.
Ej lets go, Meidericher SV
Zebrastreifen weiß und blau!
NUR DER MSV
Ultras movement have started but most us struggle with money
Fußball in Deutschland ist meiner Meinung nach der beste in der Welt, es gibt einige der besten europäischen Vereinen, starken Konkurrenz zwischen manchen Mannschaften, billige Eintrittskarten und krasse Fans die in den Vereinen als stolze Mitglieder teilnehmen. Obwohl es manchmal einige Kontras gab (z.B. für die ärmsten Mannschaften mit wenigen Fans und Einkommen), meine ich dass wir den 50+1 Regel in allen Meisterschaften bewerben sollen. Grüße aus Griechenland.
Petros Devrikis Starkes Deutsch muss man sagen Respekt
Seh ich genau so aber billige Eintrittskarten....
@John Trevolter die geben auch nur so viel geld aus weil sie keine andere wahl haben also was du sagst musst du auch im Verhältnis sehen
@@rob541 Verhältnismäßig gesehen ist das schon nicht ganz falsch. Ich weiß zwar nicht, was Karten in Frankreich, Spanien oder Italien kosten, aber England ist definitiv teurer.
Wenn englische Fans schon wegen Fußball zu uns kommen und der ganze Trip weniger kostet als ein Stadionbesuch dort, lässt das schon tief blicken.
No your sports league systems are inferior
Can’t take a video seriously that talks about how great German football fans are and how they protest against modern football that shows RB Leipzig supporters at the same time
Too late. Its all about money now. Why would they care about fans, when premier league clubs can have literally zero attendances and still make profit.
You are very much mistaken ticket prices make clubs a fortune but also if fans become a nuisance no brand would want to associate with it forcing clubs to listen
with red bull custumers in the backgraound i cant take this video serious, sorry..
RBL fans are nothing to do with Red Bull they have a right to a club same as anyone
@@thomaskendell8146 brilliant comment!
Thomas Kendell they are not fans for me, just gloryhunters
@@thomaskendell8146 das sind keine Fans das sind Kunden
@@thomaskendell8146 there are two other clubs in Leipzig which are way older and have much more tradition.
This is real football, that's why fans can say "we won", cause they're really a part of the team. Respect for the true fans, we need more of you in today's fake football.
Ich liebe Deutscher Fußball ❤
If you want to show the great culture in German football please don't show RB Leipzig. They don't belong to us.
You dont belong to us
you guys know that red bull leipzig has 16 members with a voting right of which approximately 10 are high managers at red bull
but still top supporters
English Clubs have to give their fans the rights , just fans know what is the best for their Club and not a rich man from Asia or Africa. You can Not compare englisch Clubs and germans Clubs anymore. A Club like Aston Villa in England can spend more on Transfers than Gladbach in Germany. Gladbach attempts to qualify for the Champions League and Villa fights against Relegation.
Tbf villa are a bigger club than gladbach
Not anymore
TheHesK9 To no time Aston Villa was bigger than Gladbach
@@ShankzZ97
Monchengladbach
Started 1900
Capacity 54,022
#2 UEFA Cups (Europa Cup Today)
#5 Bundesliga Champions
#3 DFB Pokal (like the FA Cup)
All but 1 of the trophy success was between 1960-1979...the other in 1995. The population of the city Mochengladbach is around 260,000.
Aston Villa
Started 1874
Capacity 42,785
#1 European Cup (Champions League today)
#7 1st Division champs(Prem today)
#7 FA Cups
#5 - League Cups
Much of the trophy success was in the time periods of 1886-1920 & 1957-1982. They also saw some success in the 1990s with 2 cups in 1994 & 1996. The population of the city Birmingham is about 1 million people.
@@ShankzZ97 Aston Villa was a bigger club before Mochengladbach was. However both clubs saw big success roughly around the same time in the 60s, 70s and early 80s. With some success in the 90s, and none since. The clubs have a similar history of success in the same time periods.
as a german footballfan it is relly sad to see, in a video like this so much stuff from red bull and there "fans"
He couldve used Ultras from Stuttgart or other traditional clubs
@@fabiankrasniqi666 Or Dynamo Dresden Frankfurt Rostock Magdeburg etc
Or you can just stop crying and accept that Leipzig also has a support scene
Leipzig has no fans
tell this to the supporters and they will show u how much they are^^
Thank you for this important piece! Many so called sports journalists in Germany (especially working for tabloids and Pay TV) seem to not understand the whole situation. It really scares me how one-sided and populist they report on these events
Please dont show RedBull, Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim - no one likes them - support is almost on 0%
Every other club represents german football better
You understand nothing
Don't forget Bayer Leverkusen
@@boombap5594 No Leverkusen is something different. Bayer supports Them Not more, than a usual sponsor. I know they did,but the reason is the history of our club
Have to disagree on Wolfsburg and Leverkusen. They may be technically company owned but they have succeeded on their own merits. Plus both Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are cities where a huge portion of the population works at VW and Bayer respectively, which means the fanbases are going to reflect that. Finally, both clubs were started by factory workers from both companies meaning their history is intrinsically linked with the history of those two companies.
By comparison, both Hoffenheim and Liepzig were fifth tier teams that were plucked from obscurity by a billionaire and an energy drink company, who poured millions into them to cause them to shoot up to the Bundesliga in a matter of a few years. They're basically just side projects for their owners.
Leverkusen and Wolfsburg were both formed with workers of the companies playing in the first years and making it from the bottom to the top of the league system while also keeping the 50+1 rule.
The owners of Hoffenheim and Leipzig (Hopp and Mateschitz) both bought a club in the upper tiers of German football and then pumped money into them to rise to the top
Are you serious by showing Red Bull Leipzig as a positive example of german football?
At least they bring young Players in to the Bundesliga
They didn't. They did say that it is a new example of a club breaking the 50+1 rule, together with Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, and Bayer.
Fabian Krasniqi every other club had young players-built up by their own youth training campus and Leipzig just buys them from other countries
“Fans are turning to non league football “ - shows a clip of bohemian fc in the premier division In Ireland 😂
Close enough to non league football I guess :D
Video about german football culture.
Showing Red Bull Leipzig.
Red Bull Leipzig is not a football club, its a soft drink advertisement.
Why is there a video of Irish fans (Bohemians) when speaking about English fans?
People complain about Leipzig but don’t complain about the dominance and economic prosperity Bayern Munich have. I rather have anyone win but Bayern.
The english Football sold his Soul , the supporters become costumers and cashcows.
With the exception of RB Leipzig you have a point. I love the Bundesliga and the fans. Sports are for all of us. Not just the upper class! Ive seen ticket costs in England and they are just as bad as an NFL ticket
Never understood why English ppl sell one of their main national culture to foreigners but I agree the weird thing is that a 80's Sunday league club plays now in the 1. Bundesliga only because 1 rich guy while traditional teams like Kaiserslautern which was one of the ground members and standing for a complete region in Germany has problems to stay in the 3rd league and has absolutely no chance to come back without a rich investor...
Feel like this would be a great idea for uk (50+1) and also people standing up bit with england i feel its too far
This aged well...
Please leave rb out when you talk about geniune German football.
1:07 "Domestic leagues are incredibly competitive..."
**inb4 Bayern wins another title**
Yeah the same as in Italy, Spain and France. No European league is actually competitive.
Something should have been done at least 15 years ago
Minute 6:47: Ich sags als Werderfan nur selten, aber Respekt für das Banner von Schalke!
Als VfBler schließe ich mich an. Sehr gut.
Do you think English football can learn anything from Germany?
COPA90 Football no
Yes! heaps. safe standing, tifo's just to name a couple.
Its too late now
No when was the last time a team not named Bayern or Dortmund won the league
@@jacko_bandit729 yes
Hopp is a Mäzen not an owner.
In theory he gives his money and gets nothing in return.
This is the difference between Hoffenheim and Rasenball.
Wow great documentary but I disagree kind of the case with Newcastle when the league was playing they made their annoyances clear
50+1 is the greatest gift Germany gave to the game. I value the rule more then the best football matches you could wish for, or supporting a club with financial means beyond any other. Its almost funny that in Germany Bill Shankly's saying that football without fans is nothing is being carried the strongest.
Imagine protesting about a person destroying a countries football identity but not about racism
Just to inform: the clip of the purple dressed fans with the anti Red-Bull flag you showed a few times is not a German club, it’s Austria Salzburg, the new-found old club Red Bull overtook in 2005 in Austria…
Owners of premier league clubs wouldn't listen to fans. It's not like English fans haven't protested before, nothing gets done. Absolutely farcical that my Norwich season ticket is 5 times more expensive than a Dortmund one, and it was still that price when we finishing bottom half in the championship
If u talk about Ultras, don’t show rb Leipzig.
Nail on the head, thank you
A lot can be learned but we're probably too far down the track to see a change in the balance of power.
Domestic leagues are incredibly competitive? Bayern will win the next 20 titles at this rate, incredibly uncompetitive I’d say. However all other aspects of German football in terms of fan involvement are infinitely superior to English football
Can you please make a video about the fall off of FC Twente and the football leaks scandal.
In den Farben getrennt, in der Sache vereint.
- Separated in the colors but united by purpose.
If you like 50+1, you'll love Swedish football. 50+1 in all clubs, no millionaires, no VAR (because the fans/members opposed it).
In den Farben getrennt in der Sache vereint
The best thing about German football is that it is still a working man's game charging decent fair ticket prices and the clubs have passionate local supporters not the prawn sandwich mob and the tourists and day trippers. However I dont think it is the wonderland it is painted by some. Who has won the league the last few seasons.....2013 Bayern, 2014 Bayern, 2015 Bayern, 2016 Bayern, 2017 Bayern, 2018 Bayern, 2019 Bayern..........the protests against RB Leipzig and Hoffenheim seem more to me about not wanting to upset a cosy top tier.
True, as a german supported of a "traditional" club I think especially RB adds competition and quality to the bundesliga. Still I don't like them but I respect them for adding value. Hoffenheim however clearly shows that fan support cannot built artificially. A club can be build by money but not a fan base. Atmosphere especially in Hoffenheims away games is just boring. Leipzig however had a strong fan base from tradition and RB "bought into" that. Clever move from their side.
2:34min Öööööö - dingen!
Don’t show fans from RB Leipzig
the first thing you have to learn, is that red bull ruins our football, so please don't show their "fans"
1:08
Er what? "Domestic leagues are competitive." Since 2013 only Bayern have won the Bundesliga.
bar Leicester and Blackburn, only 4 teams have ever won the premier league in the 27 years it's been about
@@coolredpen Pretty much all major leagues arent really competitve - La Liga - dominated by Real & Barça. France - PSG, Italy - Juventus. Last 10 years in particular you couldnt really say they are competitive in terms of who wins the title but maybe in the positions below that you could make a case
@@coolredpen insert liverpool joke here:
Premier League will be the same in a few years. It will be a lifelong battle between Liverpool and Man City.
@@immermitderruhe bet the same thing was said about united and chelsea around 10 years ago.
Gegen den modernen Fussball!
Mais algum brasileiro que curte COPA90 aí?
5:37 I just learned a new word in German, i'll probably never get use the word tho lol but ya never know....
Nice !
Bro you cant Show rb leipzig when you are talking of ultras and the influence of millionairs in football 😂
I agree about the fan culture , But the top League is dominated by one Club. Thats the reason is can't be compared to England.
They missed out 10 years ago they should have done something
Why no likes/dislikes allowed?
So you guys show a clip from leipzig and you say at the same time that fans have a say. With a club in the background that spits on the 50+1 rule and has oly 20 members? Shame on you
Excellent video except one point about the domestic league being competitive, one club has won 7 straight titles!! how is that competitive???
The last 2 Seasons were really close. And the 4th place in the Bundesliga is always different
(Schalke, Leverkusen, Gladbach, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim)
There’s an unfortunate downside to this: German clubs are the least financially healthy in Europe because of their structure and most of them are crippling under unsolvable debt. Football died in the 1990s when UEFA opened the door for unfair deregulation
Not anymore. About 15 years ago a lot of clubs was deeply indebted. Nowadays, nearly every club has more capital than debt. Of course, we have Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg which are deeply in red numbers but all of them have very wealthy owners. Gladbach has about -100mio, but only because of a new stadium and the rest is financially okay. Dortmund and Bayern do not even have any real debts.
Funny how your pic is PSG in that regard 😂 Bayern btw is financially probably the most stable club in the world.
🇩🇪❤️
In the end , those teams not build by equal money.
Pretty one sided view on the german football business. First and foremost the Bundesliga has not been very competitive at the top except some seasons when there were only two teams challenging for the domestic league title. Other than that Bayern has 28 championships and the second place is far of with only 5 league titles and I am not even mentioning the countless consecutive titles Bayern has won over the time.
And then there is the 50 plus 1 rule as mentioned in the video. Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim have made use of the exception that allows companies or persons to gain control when these companies or persons have continously supported/promoted the mother club for over 20 years. In this case the DFL (german league association) is able to request the exception of the 50 plus 1 rule and the DFB has to make the final decision.
This season german clubs did really well on the international level.
The Bundesliga isn't the best league for sure but still in the top 3 or top 4 sharing the second place with LaLiga, and SerieA.
The Premleague is a exception but in the other leagues mentioned you have also only 2 clubs who won the most titles. These two clubs in those leagues are succesfull since decades means 40+ years.
That the 50+1 rules is getting digged out by some clubs is true but we fans speak it out. We do protests about it and we make clear that this is not an alternative.
All in all I'm happy I can participate in the decisions of my club. My voice means something and in fact this is lived democracy. That english fans don't feel the need to have these rights too and fight for it is actually really strange to me.
Maybe the english fans like monarchy in there footballclubs. I dont know ^^
So in which league are nire than 2 or 3 teams fighting for the title?
In england there are only two teams (liverpool,man city) fighting for the title.
In spain it's the same with barca and real madrid
In italy we have juventus and maybe inter or napoli
In germany it's bayern and dortmund or leipzig.
Ai where do you have a real conpetition?
@@horsthuber482 liverpool and city were the only two teams up to the task this season. The other 4 teams are struggling with management issues which is evident. But all in all, it is clear to say that the last 20years, in all top leagues, it is only the english premier league where a possible 6teams are playing for the championship. Can you say that about the other top 4 leagues? No. Your blatant disregard of evidence really shows your german bias.
@@duncancoetzee5792 I'm sorry dude. But 6 different Bundesliga clubs have won the title in the last 20 years. Don't play the big man if u have no idea what ur talking about.
Bayern would be a consistent mid table team when they would have invested so much money in worse players like ManU did
Do one on Spartak Moscow
I am sorry but what is wrong with you to show several clips of rb Leipzig the club who is aigainst all we fight for? Who did this? Do you know nothing about the german football?
7:54 can anyone say what is going on there. Are they fighting or celebrating something. ??
it is called a moshpit. Many ultras do this. They are celebrating
Just to play devil's advocate, bundesliga has had only one champion for a long time, Bayern Munich, doesn't that show how weak bundesliga is? maybe 50 + 1 rule is to blame. You need money to compete.
Something is wrong? Who were in last season's CL and EL finals? Come on have some balance, Bayern have dominated the league so often few clubs have a chance is that the type of football you all want?
Argentine professional football is still run under this model! Every professional club is ‘owned’ by their socios and vote for Presidents instead of having a millionaire owner
You forgot the barra bravas which are basically organized crime syndicates and a lot of power over a club.
Nice Video but why do you take so much clips of RB Leipzig-there are way better fans and clubs that should be shown exactly here because hoffenheim is the same as RB-a product
Bayern y Hoffenheim dejan de jugar
Gol de Gignac
2:04 I've heard this song before ;)
empius What song?
Here after New Castle United Saudi king's Bid to buy the club.
👍👍👍
The Name SchalkE not SchalkA! 😡 At the End is an E - like Echo!
We need something like this in India too. Especially in the two Kolkata Giants.
Great fans join us
Make pyro legal
RIP Newcastle United
These fans feel so entitiled
The only club in England who stands up for their beliefs are Liverpool fans, whether it was protesting against ticket prices or most recently the club's decision to furlough their non-playing employees which was disgraceful and thankfully did a U-turn following fan anger. But the beginning of this video summed it up perfectly talking about English fans' empty loyalty for their club.
Aidy Gooner what about clubs protesting against owners like Blackpool and West Ham. 10,000 + West Ham fans on a ‘GSB out’ march
@@user-yr7mf3fr3ei think the 50+1 rule should be put into action in the PL
if i got paid that much money you could say all the racist things in the world to me and i wouldn't care because i would just go home to my mansion after the game.
Dont show redbull clubs!
Are you serious ? This is no protest, these people are just insulting Dietmar Hopp because they cant stand new clubs in the bundesliga. Dietmar Hopp is a wonderful person who invests more money into medical research and the infrastructure, Hoffenheim is financially independent from Dietmar Hopp since 2-3 years.
In my opinion there‘s also a huge difference between someone like an oligarch, oil sheik or a foreign company that just acquires/absorbs an already established football club and someone like Dietmar Hopp who decided to support his hometown‘s football club for which he, back in the days, used to play by himself...
And by the way: He started to support the club years/decades ago (at a time when the team played at the local level in one of the minor German football leagues)!
7:54min Context?
search for Karawane Cannstatt on yt. VfB Stuttgart fans getting ready for the first game of the season - not a fighting scene
They protest against games on Monday
please stop showimg clips of red bull leipzig. They are literraly the problem of football, ehich this video is about.
An alle Deutschen: 5:41min !
RB Leipzig is the worst example u could show here
I honestly think the atmosphere in Germany just looks too organised and staged. I much prefer a natural atmosphere that you get in England.
Does 5:33 looks organised and staged to you?
Organised fans may result of the well known german behavior. But I've never seen a "staged" atmosphere. You should definitly go to a Dortmund match, there's a lot british fans could learn from the yellow wall.
Eintracht Frankfurt
It's always a curious case the example of German football. The 50+1 rule is a great concept but I'm curious as to how much it actually impacts on the decisions at club level. Leipzig in general promote youth, they aren't out there buying the most expensive players. Instead that is left to the like of Bayern & Dortmund. The rise of these new clubs really feels like the old guard, that which benefited most from unification, being upset that the balance of power begin to switch.
rb l suppos killed this vid mate
Why r u showing Leipzig fans so often? They are the one of the weakest groups
Ultras that aren't anti-Semitic? Take notes, Serie A.
On the one hand, the 50+1 rule is great, I see it as a wonderful thing. On the other hand, it's easy to support that rule when you are A Bayern Munich fan and get rich corporations getting involved. Don't be hypocrites, all of a sudden Byern Munich of Dortmund fans care about Hoffenheim wellbeing.
Not all clubs can insure many rich owners on the board, many don't have them, and then, instead of having many rich owners on the board, you get one rich owner.
Ideally everyone could work under the 50+1 scheme, but in practice, it mostly helps the clubs that are already rich. I think it's great to help clubs maintain their identity, but if there's a club that's comfortable otherwise, it's their choice.
That's not true. The lack of competition is similar in Spain, Italy and France, it's not a consequence of 50+1 rule.
Football is lost due to economy. Everywhere.