Should The Nostrand Avenue Line Be Extended?
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2023
- Many transit enthusiasts propose extensions to the NYC Subway System, and Nostrand Avenue is one of them. This extension involves extending the current branch line further south in Brooklyn to better serve the southern part of the borough. In this video we ask and answer the question: Should The Nostrand Avenue Line Be Extended?
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Yes, they should be extended. I always said that the 2 should be extended down Nostrand Avenue to Emmons Ave, and the 5 should branch off and be extended down Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza
That would be an awkward branch.
@@sonicboy678eh
@@sonicboy678nah
In one map I am looking at the 2 goes down to Manhattan Beach while the 5 goes to Breezy Point via Floyd Bennett Field.
@@albertmammoth6696Service to the Rockaway via Flatbush Avenue is no longer needed. Floyd Bennet Field is not an airport and ridership in the Rockaway would be pretty low considering that everything west of the bridge is parkland. You might as well extend both the 2 and 5 via Nostrand to Kingsborough CC.
I love these extension proposal videos.
It’s pretty known by everyone that these two lines Nostrand and Utica Avenue ought to be extended towards the bottom end of Brooklyn. Those two bus lines take awfully too long As far as train storage at Flatbush Avenue Bklyn College, I heard that it was never intended to be a terminal station at first, which explains its strange station layout. Therefore extra construction would need to be done at the station. I like the idea of the terminal stop curving to the right and providing space for train cars. I also agree with the MTA overbuilding. I can’t imagine them adding an overhead mezzanine on these additional subway lines. Just a simple Island platform with possibly underpasses to opposite sides.
But Mystic, I thought you said in your Utica Avenue video that building an elevated line would cost less money.
The situation with Nostrand is different. On the other end of the creek lies the residential neighborhood of Manhattan Beach, and its narrow residential streets. Trying to build a bridge through these areas will require a lot of property acquisition (especially homes) and that will jack the price up dramatically.
Especially to help alleviate the B44 bus riders that ride the bus from Williamsburg or even Crown Heights
I did that commute for a few years, and getting north of Flushing Ave is difficult with the B44. Also when there was still the B44 limited it used to take me 15-20 minutes to get from Crown Heights to Bedford Ave and Myrtle Ave.
@@akivaplutno absolutely...I lived in Crown Heights and then Bed-Stuy and the 44 in between Flushing and Eastern Parkway in both directions is brutal indeed
Nice proposal! When I would think about an extension from the Junction, I always thought in terms of extending down Flatbush to Kings Plaza. But if I were to do a line south on Nostrand, it would nearly mirror your proposal. The only thing I had different in my mind was, no Ave L station, but a Kings Highway station that sat entirely between Kings Highway and Ave M so that you would have an entrance from Avenue M also. I would add an Avenue X station. My great grandmother used to live on Avenue X and I always thought, "There should be a train station at X and Nostrand. Lol. Good stuff, though. 👍🏾
You might as well add the Avenue L stop and have the Kings Highway stop stretch between Avenue N to Marine Parkway.
I definitely agree that this extension should be built in some way. Although I would prefer if its elevated south of kings highway because of the water table. When I heard you say that building a bridge over sheepshead bay would skyrocket the price, I thought it was weird since im pretty sure tunneling under it isnt any cheaper, not to mention the amount of waterproofing needed even if its built at cut and cover level for most of the extension. (As if the existing line from church ave to flatbush ave have enough flooding issues already lol). Otherwise, i agree that these overbuilt stations really need to stop, but seeing how the SAS phase 2 stations were designed, it looks like the MTA hadn't learned their lesson yet :/
Yeah those wide upper level mezzanine on the SAS were completely unnecessary. They didn’t have to make them so wide and so touristy.
@@calvinkendrick851The space on the existing stations should be used for retail. All new stations should be regular sized.
I would also built a lower level that connects from the IRT 12th Street Line for express service. These should be the express stations on the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line from Church Avenue to Avenue T:
Ⓜ️ Church Avenue
Ⓜ️ Flatbush Avenue
Ⓜ️ Kings Highway
Ⓜ️Quentin Road
Ⓜ️Avenue T
Building an elevated structure along the narrow streets of Manhattan Beach will require property acquisitions, loads of community outcry (Manhattan Beach is a residential area), and a really expensive bill. A tunnel will pretty much avoid most of that.
@@TheRailLeaguer The should run from Manhattan Beach-MacKenzie Street to Fordham Plaza, while the (N) should run from 18th Avenue to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard.
If they extend the Norstand Ave Lines then that should mean that we can extend the Utica Ave Lines.
Plus serving Kingsborough + Kings Plaza would help out so many students + shoppers
Long Answer: Yes.
Short Answer: Yes.
Nostrand Avenue line should definitely get extended at some pt. I’d love to see that in the near future too!
Would love to see some of your bus redesigns!
Nice to see you back here again. By the way, are you ok? Sound kinda ill. Edit: for metrodreamin, you can place waypoints to help direct where you want routes to go (even at stops)
Oh that's cool. Thanks for the tip with metrodreamin. Also, yes, I'm fine, just been making some modifications to the audio in my videos.
@@MysticTransit Yes, I think the Nostrand Ave line should be extended because more people in Brooklyn who lived in these neighborhoods (such as Flatlands, Marine Park, Homecrest, Mill Basin, etc.) need more subway train stations for more fluent transportation to get to Manhattan and The Bronx on-time fast enough.
I've always seen Nostrand and Utica as a pair of siblings that *both* need their extensions (and ideally a full new line in the case of Utica) as Southeastern Brooklyn especially south of Brooklyn College Junction/Flatbush and east of the Brighton line is pretty gnarly to navigate via only buses while also being a place where most people nowadays are pushed into with the cost of living closer to central and downtown BK skyrocketing. Multi-decade long residents used to the concept of available transit into the city center are now (if they choose to remain in the city) posed with the reality of dealing with "two fare" zones or dealing with much more time investment to make trips that were much more manageable forcing more consideration and preference towards car travel.
With proper deinterlining applied and a general focus on Rogers Junction, bottlenecks can be sorted out more efficiently which would then allow for proper services to handle both of these major Brooklyn north-south corridors via IRT in the short term or Nostrand could just be the recipient of much needed buffs including a better terminal/storage facilities/yard potentially for 7th Ave services (the (2) & (3) now being run exclusively down Nostrand) with Lex Ave services (the (4) & (5) lines) going to New Lots and down to Kings' Plaza/Ave U. In the case of the latter especially, a case is made to retain the (5) service post deinterlining (making the 7th Ave (3) service the new Dyre Ave line and running both (4) & (5) lines to Woodlawn with the latter having a terminus at Kings Plaza; though I will say I'm a bigger fan of running a wholly new line built to B div standards through Utica-Malcolm X's full length that can also become blended into a better version of what SAS Phases 3 & 4 want to be via Third Av in Manhattan).
What's more, building out Nostrand (and Utica) like this provides further resilience and useful redundancy in the overall transit network and Brooklyn's especially. Brighton Line trains having an issue or requiring heavier that usual maintenance could be supplemented by the new Nostrand (and Utica) lines serving more of the borough more consistently while potentially offering trips that haven't been considered before based on how this is handled.
It was nice however to see someone actually propose the line be fully underground if only because it sounds doable. I'd heard a lot of commentaries about how anything south of a specific point in BK automatically has to be considered for elevated lines due to high water tables and certain soil conditions but I'd love to hear another take on whether or not they could remain underground and for how long exactly. It was also nice to hear a proposal for this extension that also included a stop near Kingsborough Community College/Oriental Blvd as yes that's a great space on Manhattan Beach that would also be appreciated by ridership. I don't know what the most ideal version of crossing the bay would be from a price standpoint but could only hope that real thought was put into such a thing if we're willing to extend it south.
Edit: Almost forgot, the IBX's existence is also both a big deal and should be taken advantage of by providing it with as many high quality transfer stations as possible and its ROW already intersects what would be the Nostrand Line about a block and change away from the current Flatbush Ave station (and has a nice intersection with Utica between Glenwood and Farragut Roads). It just feels like a no-brainer to work on these two lines ASAP. Though if it does become about prioritizing projects, then yes Utica over Nostrand any day.
How long did that take to write-
@MysticTransit, I agree with what you say about the overbuilt subway stations; we have that problem here in Toronto too, with the construction of the Ontario Line (trees cleared away near a community center at the corner of Sherbourne & Queen just to build a subway station, way too much land being cleared away at an area around the corner of King & Parliment to do that same [and this is just the entrance at the top too, most likely.)
Great video. I think the line should be elevated after Kings Hwy because of the high water table in South Brooklyn.
I propose the Utica Avenue Line to be elevated after the Empire Boulevard Station. There should also be a subway on Albany Avenue & to run elevated after the Farragut Road Station.
thank you for making this video. YES the line should be extended.
Loving the MetroDreamin’ in the thumbnail! I think it’s a pretty nice way to display subway information, even if it’s largely used for fantasy or theoretical transit systems
Even though Nostrand Avenue as a whole is...not the best place to be in() I do agree that the (2) & (5) needs to be extended so that the B44 SBS ca n relieve of crowds, and so that more neighbourhoods can take the subway instead of taking the B44 to Flatbush Av
But either way nice video today!
Why is it not the best place to be in?
@@odemata87 its just to me since I filmed once in Newkirk Av-Little Haiti and I didn't have a nice experience over there
@@DamianTransitandHealthbars1229 were you filming people who didn't want to be filmed?
@@odemata87 no. I only film trains not people and plus it’s mostly homeless people who get mad at me for filming
@@DamianTransitandHealthbars1229 then I don't quite understand when you said it's not the best place to be then if that's what you do. I myself do photography, specific street and cityscapes and have never had any issues while shooting on Nostrand Ave especially along the 2 line from Flatbush terminal to Franklin avenue.
If they extend it, I would be very happy since I live one block away from Nostrand Ave.
Absolutely to Voorhies Avenue with a mini underground yard a la Pitkin
It took a crazy long time to finish the Ave A exit on the 14th St crosstown L train + that was just a new exit on an already existing station. It was covid, but still they dragged their heels, same as the 2nd Av subway + they ought to run that all the way downtown too, at least to Houston, the lower east side needs service too
Yes they should. They would get extended further south. The (2) line should go further south along Nostrand Avenue until Emmons Avenue, or even KBCC like yiu said, where it would terminate. The (5) on the other hand, would run to Gerritsen Beach. It would run with the (2) until Quentin Rd, where it would split off and run on Gerritsen Avenue to Gerritsen Beach, Lois Avenue - where Gerritsen Avenue Ends.
That's almost how I'd do it, only with the routes reversed.
Either way would work, because there’s no local or express service in that section
I go to KBCC and I find that a great idea, the nearest train station sheepshead bay on the B and Q takes like 20-25 mins to go and taking the B1 or B49 bus is a big no because of so much crowding, even more crowded this year honestly so I would love to see a train station near there
Haha that’s exactly what I do to, as I’m currently a student at KBCC
@@railfanner-MaxPlati same lol, during peak hours the buses especially the B1 are packed
Yeah I really think as well that the Nostrand avenue should get extended it would serves unserved areas around Brooklyn and so on
I like the idea of extending the 2 and 5 lines further south but I don't think that will ever happen because the cost. At this point, just build a underground yard south of Flatbush Avenue to ease congestion and provide better service especially during am rush hours.
These should be the stations on the IRT Gerritsen Avenue Elevated Line that branches off the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line:
Ⓜ️ Ford Street (local)
Ⓜ️ Brigham Street (express)
Ⓜ️Allen Avenue (local only)
Ⓜ️Everett Avenue (local only)
Ⓜ️ Cyrus Avenue (local only)
Ⓜ️ Gerritsen Beach (local only)
It’s long overdue for the nostrand line and Utica line, and u definitely took the words out my mind when u said run the B44 on Bedford ave because that street has no transportation what so ever 💯
Always a good day when Mystic uploads
I agree with this, an extension of the 2 and 5 is a good idea and I'd say it has a lot of benefits. Such as relieving crowding on the B44. The only thing I disagree with is moving the B44 to Bedford. Bedford Avenue is more residential and quiet, whereas Nostrand Avenue is very commercialized, so keeping a bus line on that corridor would be very useful. Also, many people would rather take the bus than the train for convenience and safety, so I'd keep the B44 on Nostrand. Overall though, you brought up a lot of good points and I would love to see this happen in the future, keep up the good work!
The overbuilt mezzanines is like 40% of the costs of the SAS so far, if I remember my transit costs project numbers... you're completely right!
As far as I'm concerned, Utica Avenue should only gain priority if it crosses Eastern Parkway. I'd still look to do _something_ about Nostrand Avenue so it's less likely to conflict with the Bay Ridge Branch/IBX. Speaking of which, the Bay Ridge Branch is positioned so any sort of yard would need to be south of Avenue I.
I’m all for extensions to subway lines no matter where they are so I’m all for this. There is so much potential for something so much greater for Nostrand Ave and I’d love to see the 2 & 5 be extended and for them to get a proper terminal. It would be such a huge win-win for riders, Brooklyn & the City as a whole.
Even if we can get the extension to Kings Hwy it would be extremely beneficial
Though my Station list is a bit different
My list
Ave J
Kings Hwy
Gerritsen Av
Ave U
Voorhies Av
We definitely need to focus on building better Terminal Space because Flatbush Av is not a great terminal.
But yes once Utica Av is built and we can get the 4 train extended.
We should consider de-interesting
4 and 5 to Utica & New Lots
2 & 3 via Nostrand
I agree it should be that will resolve the high passenger use on the B44 bus.
Please also talk about the MTA Brooklyn Bus revitalizing plan. They’re bringing in a couple of new lines, making old bus lines newly LT’d and extending some while rerouting others.
The B57 going limited and going past Maspeth to Jackson Heights is major!
Would definitely like to see your bus redesign
Yes indeed. People who live on the Nostrand Ave line wouldn’t have to worry about crush loading the B44 buses all the time. The 2/5 extension to either Voorhies Ave or Kingsborough Community College would definitely be beneficial. Stations;
Ave J
Kings Hwy
Ave U
Ave X
Voorhies Ave
Oriental Blvd(Elevated)
Hey, MysticTransit can you talk about the proposed Idea to extend the 7 train to NJ Secaucus station. It seems like a very important idea and could be a very game changing for Nj and NYC. I haven't seen any other youtuber talk about this so I would like your input on the matter!
I've been living on Nostrand by the flatbush stop most of my life and this video is so accurate thank you
B49 already handles Rodger ave if i recall correctly, Sending a SBS over there is redundant considering the b49 has a limited bus. They could make the b49 a SBS and remove the select from Nostrand and just have the regular 44 run.
I wholeheartedly agree u with one exception. Extending both lines, the 2, 5 or both line to Nostrand Ave and Ave U. Extending the # 4 train to the Kings Plaza Mall. Where I disagree should we not place a major terminal under Marine Park at Ave U. Maybe with a connection to the # 4 train at Ave U. This terminal would repair, store subway cars. The Livonia Yard is the only major terminal for the 2, 3, 4 & 5 trains in South West Brooklyn, a newer bigger terminal at Marine Park, Brooklyn NY. Is Kings Plaza Mall dying????
I think this should definitely be considered
dude, I was on this line yesterday and it couldn't have been any more backed up. Literally it took 20 minutes to get from franklin ave to bk college because of multiple incidents in manhattan, and let me tell you it was so many trains at rogers junction. but that slow crawl all the way to bk college was brutal. wish they'd extend this line already.
Thanks for making a vid on my stop 😂
Literally the MTA and city itself should really hire you!!!!
They can’t extend the Nostrand avenue lines they just don’t got enough money
Even if he was hired they probably still could not
Flatbush Ave station was my station back when I lived in New York, but it was too far from my house and I had to take a B6 bus to get to it. Before 1992 you had to pay a second fare. If I was going to extend the 2/5 line, I would run it down Flatbush Avenue to Avenue U because there is more business along the route and it would be a compromise between serving Nostrand and Utica Aves.
It’s a poor compromise given that ridership potential is lower compared to both Nostrand and Utica and the Nostrand Avenue alignment can better connect additional neighborhoods. The B44 outranks the B41 in ridership as well.
Love your stuff! New subscriber from Toronto, Canada - tho have visited NYC often & know it well. This extension makes a lot of sense.
Would cut and cover be an option? A mess while being done for sure - but would be a fraction of the cost of a bored tunnel I think. Traffic could be rerouted (along with the bus) and stores can remain open to pedestrians.
I agree that this extension should be built. I think this could be a good alternative for those taking the Brighton Line or the B44 further downtown.
I Agree, it should be built because my opinion on the Nostrand Avenue Extension is that they will Extend south to Kings Plaza. If they were Extended to Kings Plaza, the stops are gonna be Kings Highway, Utica Avenue, and Kings Plaza. I am located between Nostrand Avenue and Gerritsen Avenue. If these 2 run on these. I would likely to take them to Manhattan.
A subway line on Flatbush Avenue is not needed due to lower ridership potential compared to just extending it straight down Nostrand Avenue all the way to Avenue U or even further south, and since you live between Nostrand and Gerritsen, you seem to benefit even more from a subway along Nostrand rather than Flatbush.
They should also have an Ave X station between Ave U and Shore Pkwy/Emmons Ave/Sheepshead Bay with the extension
Funny enough my initial route for the nostrand Avenue line was to extend it via Flatbush to Kings Plaza mall. I do believe some of the neighborhoods south of kings hwy on nostrand Avenue which include marine park, Midwood and Manhattan beach would totally be against this project even if it’s underground. Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza would not much see much negative feedback since it’s Flatbush Avenue
Great Video Topic
It's a shame that they didn't build it in the 1920's and 30's when the area was not nearly as developed. It definitely should be built, but I don't think it will because it would be a monumental undertaking.
Speaking as someone who lives on it, shockingly I think they should
Yes pls do, extending the 2 & 5 train to at least Ave U, with a terminus under Marine Park, Brooklyn!!!
If this is to be done, extending the 4 trains to Kings Plaza Mall to the Ave U terminus under Marine Park!!! These improvements should be a no brainer!!!!! Owning a private home in Brooklyn is becoming obsolete, apartments in BK!!!!!
“Mediocre bus lines” is CRAZY 😂😂
Rogers is a One Way. How would the B44 be with switched onto it then?
Are you kidding me? Of course we should extend the Nostrand Avenue branch! However I would go one step further and have both the 1 and 6 extended into Brooklyn, via brand new tunnels under the East river, and run along Myrtle Avenue, before curving south to run along Nostrand Avenue (in other words the Nostrand Avenue branch will be served by the 1 and 6, and both the 2 and 5 will be displaced to the rest of the Eastern Parkway line [2 trains run with the 3 to New Lots Avenue while the 5 terminates with the 4 at Crown Heights-Utica Avenue], therefore eliminating Rogers Junction).
Stops I propose:
Gold Street-Delury Square (6) (Manhattan)
Hicks Street (1) (Brooklyn)
Cadman Plaza (1 and 6 meet up) (Transfer to the 2, 3, 4, 5, and R)
Flatbush Avenue-MetroTech (Transfer to the A, C, F, and R)
Portland Avenue-Fort Greene Park
Vanderbilt-Washington Avenues
Classon Avenue-Pratt Institute
Bedford-Willoughby Avenues
DeKalb-Lafayette Avenues (Transfer to the G and B44 SBS)
Madison Street
Atlantic Avenue-Fulton Street (Transfer to the A and C)
Prospect Place
President Street-Medgar Evers College (Transfer to the 2 and 3)
Sterling Street
Winthrop Street
Church Avenue
Beverley Road
Newkirk Avenue-Little Haiti
Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue
Avenue K
Kings Highway
Gerritsen Avenue-Quentin Road
Avenue T
Avenue W
Avenue Z
Shore Parkway-Emmons Avenue
Manhattan Beach Park-Oriental Boulevard
West End Avenue
(Line Transitions to Elevated structure)
Brighton Beach (Transfer to the B and Q downstairs)
Ocean Parkway (Transfer to the Q across the platform)
Shell Road (Transfer to the F)
(Line transitions back underground)
Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue (1 and 6 TERMINUS) (Transfer to the D, F, N, and Q)
If u guys want mta extensions u guys rlly need to swipe ur metro cards and OMNY cards instead of just not paying and going through
Yes. WHY TF NOT????? A Nostrand Avenue Subway extension would be beneficial for everyone. Aside from the expanded coverage in Southern Brooklyn, since it goes deeper into Midwood and Sheepshead Bay, the extension would also improve train operations a bit because the new extension would provide a better terminal than the current one at Flatbush Avenue. Even if nothing is done with Rogers Junction, the terminal would provide much more breathing room for terminating trains, thus reducing delays. Passenger convenience is also improved compared to Flatbush Avenue. Just missed the train? Now you can just turn around and another train is waiting on the other track.
Another benefit is the added connections to other routes as well. Extending the Nostrand Avenue Line would open up new connections to additional bus routes, such as the B9, B7 and B82, etc. The connection to these bus routes would essentially open the line to neighborhoods served by these bus routes that are not connected to the line today, such as Gerritsen Beach and even Manhattan Beach. Not to mention that opportunity to restructure the bus network to create a grid network that connects Southeast Brooklyn and other Brooklyn neighborhoods to the line not at Flatbush Avenue, but at the new stations on the line. For example, the B11 would be rerouted from Brooklyn College to operate via Avenue K to serve the Avenue L station and operate along that corridor (which only sees express bus service) to Ralph Avenue. The B9 would also be rerouted from Kings Plaza to replace B41 bus service along Avenue N to Veterans Avenue and East 71st Street, with the B41 Bergen Beach runs converted to additional Kings Plaza service. Q35 service would also be rerouted from Flatbush Avenue to intercept the Nostrand Avenue Line at Kings Hwy or at another station (depending on how far the line is built). After all, the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts so the added connections to these bus routes and potential bus changes would be integral for the new line.
Speaking of “the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts”, I noticed for the station placements, you left out a possible station location at Avenue X. I understand that the wider stop spacing would allow for faster service to be obtained, but it really doesn’t make sense for the line to not stop there. After all, there is a high school a few blocks away along Avenue X and the southern portion of the Sheepshead-Nostrand houses is right there as well. Both are major traffic generators for the current bus services, and they would stand to benefit from a train station near their front doors. In fact, the ideal station positioning should be as follows:
-Avenue L: should stretch between Avenue K and Avenue L,
-Kings Hwy: should stretch between Avenue N and Marine Parkway
-Avenue R: should stretch between Quentin Road and Avenue R
-Avenue U: should stretch from mid-block between Avenue T and U to mid-block between Avenue U and V
-Avenue X: should stretch from mid-block between Avenue W and X to mid-block between Avenue X and Y
-Shore Parkway (renamed Emmons/Voorhies Avenue): should stretch from Voorhies Avenue to Emmons Avenue.
-Oriental Blvd (renamed Manhattan Beach-Kingsborough CC): should stretch along Oriental Blvd from Mackenzie Street to Pembroke Street.
All stations would have entrances to each intersecting street and mid-block entrances if possible.
mta doesn’t have enough money
if u want them to people have to swipe their cards and OMNY card taps people just skipping them made MTA loose money and they can’t do extensions until they have
Will this work Extend this down to Sheepshead Bay B & Q station using the original 1920s-1968 plan and have the 2 end at Coney Island via Nostrand Emmons aves while 5 train ends at Manhattan Beach. Requires yard move tracks to Coney Island Yard making it a combined BMT/IRT yard which are 207th st built in 1988 1 A & C trains and 1930s Concourse Yard 4 B & D trains.
What would be more effective would be an extension to the southeast of Flatbush Avenue with just three stations: Kings Highway/Flatlands Avenue, Quentin Road, and Kings Plaza. The stations would all have island platforms and would be built underground at 80 feet to 100 feet deep but with smaller mezzanines than the Second Avenue Subway stations. This however would require a complete reconstruction of the Flatbush Avenue station, which would cause the line to be closed south of Church Avenue for up to five years.
A subway on Flatbush Avenue is not needed as Nostrand has more ridership potential and it can better connect other areas that a Flatbush alignment cannot.
@@TheRailLeaguerThat is right. My earlier proposal for the extension would have caused severe overcrowding on the B44 SBS which would have mandated a streetcar line on Nostrand Avenue. As streetcars have lower capacities than subways an extension of the line to Kings Plaza would have made the congestion situation at Flatbush Avenue station even worse as the streetcar usage would be way over its design capacity which would lead to severe delays. Therefore I would instead recommend that a streetcar line run on Flatbush Avenue between the station and Kings Plaza, with a proposed extension to Rockaway Park station being considered in a second phase. Running a streetcar line on Flatbush Avenue instead of extending the subway line down Flatbush Avenue is ideal as it would allow for reduced congestion on the B41 and B44 bus routes. This is why I would now recommend the construction of a three or four station extension of the Nostrand Avenue Line south to Voorhies Avenue (with intermediate stations at Avenue K, Kings Highway, and Avenue S). The advancement of bored tunnel technology can make all four stations be built underground, but the soil conditions in the area as well as the high water table depth would mean that the stations must be built at least 100 to 150 feet below ground level if an all underground proposal was chosen.
In fact a streetcar down Flatbush Avenue would be built after the Utica Avenue Line is completed and that streetcar would link the two lines.
As someone who goes to kBCC this extension would be a big W
The one thing not brought up is crewing trains if the line is extended. The 2 and 5 are already the two longest IRT lines. Making them longer would make crew costs prohibitive.
Not necessarily true because if that were the case, then no subway line would be extended. Not to mention that these extensions will come with new train cars plus a few more train crews, though honestly one person train operations between 6 AM and Midnight would make things a hell of a lot better for everyone. We can also do zero person train ops on the recently-rebuilt 42nd Street Shuttle as well, freeing train crews up for 2, 3, 4, and 5 train service.
First to comment , lol. Great video , talk about the Manhattan bus redesign
No I was
**Eats Popcorn**
How is it a great video if you didn’t even watch the whole video yet?
I was eating popcorn while watching everyone arguing over who left the first comment.
What is a select bus service
Good idea, but good luck with NIMBYs in Manhattan Beach neighborhood
You know there are alot of version of the 5 trains, 5 that go's to Bowling Green 5 that go's to Unica Ave 5 that's go's to Eastern Parkway 5 that go's to New Lots the Normal 5 that go's to Dyre Ave 5 Diamond that go's to 238 St some 5 trains terminate at 241 St also 5 shuttle from 180th to Dyre Ave
First view. This is great
No I was
How does one download Enmodal
The 5 should be express through Brooklyn all the way to make 5 train full service is Brooklyn
YE
These should be the stations on the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line including its extension:
Ⓜ️ President Street (Local only)
Ⓜ️ Sterling Street (Local only)
Ⓜ️ Winthrop Street (Local only)
Ⓜ️ Church Avenue (express)
Ⓜ️ Beverly Road (local)
Ⓜ️ Newkirk Avenue (local)
Ⓜ️ Flatbush Avenue (express)
Ⓜ️ Avenue J (local)
Ⓜ️ Avenue L (local)
Ⓜ️ Kings Highway (express)
Ⓜ️ Quentin Road (express)
Ⓜ️ Avenue T (express)
Ⓜ️ Avenue W (local only)
Ⓜ️ Avenue Z (local only)
Ⓜ️ Sheepshead Bay-Emmons Avenue (local only)
I feel like I have heard the high water table in south Brooklyn makes subway difficult and would require deep-bore, driving up costs. Seems then than elevated might have to be the way. Regardless, it should be built!
There does seem to be the option of ground freezing, something that was used for the East Side Access.
@@TheRailLeaguer
Bus service can fill up the crosstown demand in Manhattan Beach and Brighton Beach (this is an interim plan), given that students will now have a faster alternative to/from the campus instead of the B49 bus route all the way up or taking the B1 to Brighton Beach and transfer to the Brighton Line.
A longer term plan would be to build the Coney Island Ave line with 6 tracks so that we could have superexpress tracks for Southeast Brooklyn riders to get to/from the Rockaways Faster under the plan locals would terminate at Shore Pkwy in the meantime the replacement subway would end at Norfolk Street the neighborhood of Manhattan Beach with a connection provided to the Nostrand Avenue Line and with tail tracks that have provisions for a further extension to the Rockaways. (which some of my plans for replacement subways like that are a bit complicated and are merely long term proposals). I'd also go the extra mile to replace the Franklin Ave Shuttle as well with a two track line under Bedford Aveune and connect with the Nostrand Avenue Line which would see the street temporarily ripped up to accommodate the tunnel to B division standards with that the 2 and 3 would be free to serve the Utica Avenue Subway to Kings Plaza.
cant find it but i read that they did start building further down under nostrand but stopped. the land is too soft in that direction for tunnels anyway
Yes, this is true, a neighbor ages back told me it would have been cost prohibitive to impossible. THey had maps and plans but it was just impractical. Would have to be super deep to make it work, especially past Ave U. It is like building a subway under a beach..
I think that the 2 should go to Manhattan Beach, but it out to be elevated to avoid skyrocketing prices of being underground
The 5 should because its express train
@@omariehill796 the 5 is needed elsewhere
This proposal would be interesting, but I thought this subway extension could be on elevated level for all the new stops between Flatbush Avenue and Kings Plaza/Avenue U. Additionally, at the same time, why can't the entire line be quad track not only between Franklin Avenue and Flatbush Avenue but also between Flatbush Avenue and Kings Plaza as well?
First off, there is zero need for a line on Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza, given that bus service is more than sufficient and Nostrand Avenue does have higher ridership potential, regardless of it it ever reaches Kingsborough Community College. In addition, a quad track extension for a Nostrand Avenue subway extension is not needed due to ridership levels and the current nature of the line as a branch of the Eastern Parkway Line.
To be honest, the southeastern end of Brooklyn should've always had train service.
Yes I live on L and it would make my life more convenient,cause b44 s doesn’t even go all the way.ave L is a great spot, I feel like you’ll get more customers.
On July 5th 2023 Governor Hochul announced that the mta have progress of phase 2 of the Second avenue subway for construction begins buy the End of the year and it expects to be completed by the Early 2030s
What about Nostrand Av above Eastern Pkwy?
Not much can be there, but there have been rumors of old plans for a Bedford Avenue Line. Supposedly this Bedford Avenue Line would connect to either the Brighton Line or Nostrand Avenue Line, both of which were built during the dual contracts and the latter ca SUPPOSEDLY be modified to handle longer B-division trains. Pending validity and feasibility of this line, there is the option of rerouting the E train via Worth Street to enter Brooklyn and operate through Williamsburg and Bed-Stuy via Bedford Avenue or something, before eventually taking over the Nostrand Avenue Line all the way down. This would allow for the 2 and 3 local to serve the Eastern Parkway Line local tracks all the way to Utica Avenue and then operate along the Utica Avenue Line to Kings Plaza.
If the 2 and/or 5 line train won't extend to sheepshead Bay, then we'll had to replace street cars rather than bus rapid transit and domestic vehicles will be off-limits in streets.
Yes
The 5 train to expansion to Manhattan Beach and continue express after Franklin ave
If the MTA decide to extent Nostrand Avenue. Which means extra sets are needed for the 2 and 5.
I'm not completely against this redesign, but a major flaw in it is the fact that flooding can pose a major issue. We've all seen the catastrophic events of Hurricane Sandy. If we have a subway line underground that far south in Brooklyn where the majority of the land is low-lying, that's just asking for trouble. Instead, an idea I have is extending the 2 and 5 over to Coney Island by running down Kings Highway. Or course, the A and B divisions can not connect, but it would be interesting to see Coney Island yard be able to possess trains from both divisions
There are ways to get around it, like making it elevated much of the way, more flood proof protection, etc.
I'm glad that you mention the potential for redevelopment and especially upzoning. The city curtently is in a housing crisis, not just a climate crisis, and we need this.
My problem - and this goes for Utica as well - with extending the IRT down these avenues is it doesn't connect to any other subways until Atlantic/Barclays, so it remains a strictly Manhattan-centric subway network. I really want there to be other subway lines serving both extensions, but in the case of Nostrand where there's already a subway some of the way, it's probably too much disruption to widen the tunnels to fit B-division trains. I'd extend the E from Canal St to do this, so that people deeper in Brooklyn can connect with the A/C and G trains to travel between the outer boroughs. (Utica would also connect to the J and M.)
To address your concerns about the lack of connectivity, I do propose supplementing the IRT extensions with a companion project: extending the Franklin Avenue Shuttle from its current terminal at Fulton Street via Franklin Avenue to connect with the Crosstown Line at Bedford-Nostrand Avenues, the stop before the line curves north to Williamsburg, Greenpoint, and Long Island City. This project would allow for better connectivity between the IRT and the Crosstown G line for access to Queens, easing congestion in Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan. Not only that, but it would also fill in a small but significant service gap between the Fulton Street Line and the Crosstown Line in Bedford-Stuyvesant as this portion of the neighborhood would now have north-south subway service, something Fulton Street riders can benefit from as well, and picking up where the 1999 renovation left off. Infrastructure upgrades to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle would allow for the line to eventually operate as double track line every 5-6 minutes with full-length trains, improving frequency on this route and making it a viable option for Brighton, Nostrand, and Utica riders to connect with the other lines outside of Downtown Brooklyn.
I also like your plans for the E train extension to serve Nostrand Avenue. It is something I have thought of myself as a long range plan (though my plans have been different) but never planned for it to be taken seriously because of concerns about having to widen the tunnels to accommodate the B-division trains. However I have rekindled interest in the proposal after hearing about a supposed Bedford Avenue subway plan from the 1930s-50s that would’ve linked up to the line, rumors about the Nostrand line supposedly built to accommodate B-division trains as it was built as part of the Dual Contracts, and you bringing it up in the comment from a Tech Transit Association video on the subject. For Utica I had different plans. With the 8th Avenue Local trains using Nostrand, the 2 and 3 would be free to serve the Utica Avenue Line to Kings Plaza. The 4 and 5 would then be express to Utica Avenue, and then take over service to New Lots Avenue, providing both routes with very frequent service. The Utica Avenue Line would still be Manhattan-centric (as most riders would still be headed that way), but the Franklin Avenue Shuttle extension would provide that additional non-Manhattan connection for those going to Queens or other parts of Brooklyn.
To address this however, recently, I have been privy to the idea of creating a Utica Avenue Shuttle to link the Utica Avenue Line to northern Brooklyn and Maspeth Queens, partially based on the 1930s South 4th Street subway plans. Here, the Empire Blvd would be constructed as a four track station, with the inner tracks used for the 2 and 3 service to/from Manhattan and the outer tracks hosting the shuttle route, providing a cross-platform transfer between the two. The shuttle would end at this stop. Going north, the line would continue north on Utica Avenue splitting from the IRT. The line would have a stop at Eastern Parkway (connecting with the IRT Eastern Parkway Line) and at Bergen Street. From there the line would shift from its 1930s alignment from Stuyvesant Avenue and operate via Malcom X Blvd (the continuation of Utica into Bed-Stuy), with one stop at Fulton Street (connecting with the IND Fulton Street Line) plus other stops at Halsey Street and Gates Avenue. At about Lafayette Avenue the route would shift northeast to operate via DeKalb Avenue, two blocks from the original alignment on Stanhope Street. It would then stop at Broadway (connecting with the BMT Jamaica Line), Wilson Avenue (connecting with the BMT Myrtle Avenue Line), Wyckoff Avenue (connecting to the BMT Canarsie Line), Seneca Avenue, and the terminal at Metropoitan Avenue and Starr Street, where riders can connect with the B57 bus for service farther east. This would provide a connecting service between the Utica Avenue corridor and to Queens. Though the whole line would be built to accommodate 10-car B-division trains, the service would temporarily operate with IRT cars (also 10-cars) like the 42nd Street Shuttle, with the service pattern similar to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, but more frequent (say 24 trains per hour). This would also give the final push to complete the Lafayette Avenue Subway connection to Myrtle Avenue, picking up where the IND left off in 1937, and filling in a major subway gap that has been in place since the Myrtle Avenue elevated was torn down in 1969.
@@TheRailLeaguer I'm ready to change my mind. I have a Plan B that requires fewer disruptions and new track but still achieves the goals I want out of the subway network, and meshes with an interesting idea that came from this channel (MysticTransit).
I still want the *Second Avenue Subway to serve Utica Avenue* instead of Phase 4. This would relieve Lexington Avenue, which is one of my goals. But I would also bring it near the L in Williamsburg to relieve that line as well, and this would even take care of L riders in Williamsburg who then transfer to the 4/5/6, as well as J and M riders who do the same. I really want this line to use the inner tracks at the 2nd Ave station so F and T (or whatever SAS will be labeled) riders can switch very easily, and thus, relieving crowds at the Union Square and Bleecker St stations simultaneously.
My original goals of sending the E down Nostrand, in addition to subway connectivity, were to provide additional subway coverage, replace buses (which can then be redistributed to other lines to boost frequencies), and further relieve the 2, 3, 4, and 5 lines in Brooklyn. Admittedly my proposal provides too much relief for the 2 and 3. I honestly don't know what to do with it after taking it off Nostrand. Maybe sending them to Canarsie via Rockaway Parkway would allow those people a one-seat ride to Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan, but the L doesn't need relief at this end of the line yet, and I'll get to another idea later that multiplies capacity on the Fulton Street line.
My new plan is instead to *route the E via Brighton local and the Franklin Ave shuttle* , which runs in a trench until just north of Botanical Garden, so it can continue underground from that point. This avoids disrupting existing tracks on the 2 and 3 (assuming deinterlining), so those can be extended as proposed here, and people living along Livonia Ave gain express services, justifying extensions to Gateway Mall and along Linden Blvd (in either case allowing buses to stay on Linden Blvd instead of having to detour to New Lots Ave). This retains my goal of subway connectivity, and even improves it by connecting to Coney Island instead with fewer transfers and waiting, making it so people don't have to go all the way to Manhattan or Downtown Brooklyn for a train towards there - and, on top of that, gives another train service access to Coney Island yard, potentially helping to relieve the overcrowded Jamaica yard. This benefits Lower East Side residents as well.
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Now to elaborate on MysticTransit's idea, as seen in the Montague Connection episode of the De-Interlining Chronicles. I bring this up because there's more than one way this can go. The tweaks I would make to that proposal are that I would connect today's lower Manhattan stub-end terminals to Fulton Street local instead of 4th Ave local, allowing the A and C to run express together through Brooklyn, eliminating merging conflicts near Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and doubling capacity and frequencies in Queens (where the local doesn't run and probably shouldn't tbh), making an extension of the Lefferts Blvd branch reasonable. In place of the 4th Ave local I'd send the J there.
My preferred alternative is *keeping the R and W in lower Manhattan* , connecting *that* to Fulton St, and extending the E as I proposed. Why? This gives the deinterlined R direct access to a yard (Pitkin). This also makes room for another extension of mines, which is to *reinvent the M as a Broadway line* instead of a 6th Ave line, and replace the W, by rebuilding the Myrtle Ave el (with a portal around Steuben St). This would fully deinterline the F and the J, with the latter being able to run at max frequency, even along 4th Ave; maybe short trains are now appropriate which would speed things up a bit by not waiting for long trains to round tight curves before speeding up again. In place of the M along 6th Ave, bring back the V so it can run between QueensLink and Kings Highway (because Stillwell Ave is not a very high capacity terminal), and double capacity through Delancey St and northern Brooklyn - heck, make both of these run express through Brooklyn full-time too so that the G can also be fully deinterlined and run at max frequency, minimizing wait times all around.
If the deinterlined R is ever extended to LGA, this positions the yellow M to be a loop line, as I would then extend the M at the Metropolitan Ave end further north, not to Jackson Heights like the IBX, but to Elmhurst and Corona. This is via Eliot Ave and Junction Blvd, more or less following the Q58 bus, which breached top 3 in ridership citywide a couple months ago. So, Astoria would be better connected with more parts of Queens; more parts of Queens directly with downtown Brooklyn, as well as Southern Brooklyn with one transfer to my proposed extensions; and connecting Brooklyn with LGA without going through Manhattan. And of course, the M would continue to offer max capacity and frequency through Astoria and Manhattan.
Alternatively we can do it MysticTransit's way - *connect 8th Ave local tracks directly to Cortlandt St* , cut the R back to City Hall, and eliminate that S-bend - and still connect that to Fulton St local so the E serves as the local. This is the chance to make use of City Hall's lower level tracks to start my proposed extension via Franklin Ave and Brighton, and the deinterlined R still gets access to Coney Island yard, indirectly, but much better than if it ran between Astoria/LGA and Bay Ridge. But my M extension into Queens will no longer make sense this way. Still, this equally accomplishes every other goal.
Keeping the 2 & 5 trains the way it is right now is no longer feasible. I'd ignore the water table & turn southbound along Flatbush Avenue itself & go all the way to at Avenue U-Kings Plaza-Marine Park with Kings Highway being the lone intermediate subway station with an island platform & middle track afterwards. The aforementioned station will end with three tracks, all with wall-attached wood & steel bumper blocks a la Main Street-Flushing or a la Bowling Green shuttle at its southern ends for old times sake.
As mentioned, the Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College station will be reconstructed with an underpass & an elevator, unlike those north of said said station except Sterling & Prospect Streets
Flatbush Avenue has lower ridership potential than Nostrand Avenue. Even with the water table accounted for (there are ways around it), Nostrand is still the better option.
I would like to see your ideas.
How about extending it down Flatbush to Marine Park? That area looks to be _way_ underserved.
Nostrand is better for ridership potential and Marine Park residents can benefit with a subway line running along Utica Avenue.
There's ALOT more room for a Yard past Kings Plaza (Marine Park) so Utica should indeed be much more priority. Nostrand area is all filled up so it has NO room for huge storage of trains, therefore the storage proposal in Nostrand should be kept to a handful of tail/storage tracks instead of a big terminal.
ALSO the elephant-in-the -room nobody talks about. Building 1-2 additional tracks for peak express service as President Street to Sheepshead Bay is alot of consecutive stops the train has to make and defeats the purpose of rapid transit to/from Manhattan.
Given that the Nostrand Avenue Line is already a branch of the Eastern Parkway Line, the need for express service on the Nostrand Avenue Line and the extension is not there. Having the trains make all the stops between Crown Heights and Sheepshead Bay with a service operating at 20-24 trains per hour (30 if we get everything straightened out) would be a hell of a lot faster.
Now if the Nostrand Avenue Line were a full trunk line that didn’t have to branch off from Eastern Parkway or anywhere, that would be a different story. BUT ITS NOT.
”a bridge will skyrocket the project”
So MTA will be going for the bridge, lol.
It should as long as they fix the Roger Junction and add an express underneath the Flatbush 2/5.
There is no need for an express service on Nostrand Avenue Line at all with the way things are now.
For this to happen, they'll have to close Flatbush ave station, and go through NimBY's. And MTA's known for "being broke"
Shifting the B44 to Bedford Av will never fly-it’s a single-lane residential street and a bus line will create traffic problems.
To be fair, there should be zero discussion of moving the B44 off Nostrand Avenue since it’s still a major corridor regardless of subway coverage on the corridor. If anything, what should be done is moving buses OFF New York Avenue, Rogers Avenue, and Bedford Avenue. Here, Nostrand Avenue would be a two-way exclusive busway with non-local car traffic banned on it. All B44 service would be shifted onto Nostrand Avenue both ways, eliminating service on New York and Rogers Avenue. As for the B49, it would be rerouted away from Rogers and Bedford Avenues to remain on Ocean Avenue to Cortelyou Road and then deviate into Flatbush Avenue with the B41, making limited stops until the Prospect Park station. To replace service to Fulton Street, additional B48 service would be provided.
As for the New York Avenue service, to replace that, I am proposing implementing a new bus route to serve Albany Avenue nearby. A branch of the B44, it would start at Eastern Pkwy or at Fulton Streets, and then make limited stops until Avenue D, where it would turn onto that street to Albany Avenue. From there, it would make local stops to Avenue K and shift onto Avenue K and Kings Hwy to its terminal at Flatbush Avenue and Kings Hwy. Not only would this replace New York Avenue service, but would also better fill in a major gap in bus service between Nostrand and Utica Avenues, providing bus service to those who live closer to the center of this gap.
The 2-5 line after Flatbush would need to be elevated
Yes, but it is probably too expensive and they need to move the Flatbush ave Brooklyn college station to meet the interbough express or a new Brooklyn college stop.
The Flatbush Avenue station will not be moved in any plans whatsoever. The current positioning of the station will be retained, though the connection between platforms at the south end will be removed.
I am in complete agreement that the Nostrand Avenue line should be extended. Its current terminus is sort of an abrupt ending. I am not certain if this is true but it could have just been a temporary terminus with a plan to extend it at some point in time but just never happened? The extension of this line to perhaps even Coney Island underground with connections to the DFNQ would be a great service offering. However while this sounds good, the costs, construction and logistical challenges, opposition, politics, and other factors May service and hindrance unfortunately. None-the-less the extension should be done and should be prioritized.
It was certainly planned to be extended. There are maps as such. Def to Voorhies ave. BUT, there are issues. One is the water table in Brooklyn, which would make a subway very difficult to build. And an elevated train, people were opposed.
@@alb12345672Those are all not valid excuses. The 7 train extension is built next to the Hudson River, yet it’s still fine.
The line should most definitely be extended towards Manhattan beach. Having the line suddenly cease at a junction in the center of the borough is a bit jarring.
This would and extending the 4 along Utica ave, would better serve more people than the proposed IBX. Also eliminate the bottleneck at President st, this would be a necessary if an extension is ever done
Again, IBCX would serve a lot of people as well, almost on par with the Nostrand Avenue Subway extension and Utica Avenue Subway (probably even more considering that it is not Manhattan-bound unlike the other two). Besides, nothing wrong with IBX should you should stop your false claims.
also think the 2/5 should extend, but to Aviator, and the abandoned runway at the end of flatbush ave instead of KBCC. Thats the true deadzone of the MTA, and it has wayyy to many events to be so underserved. Have the 2/5 turn on flatbush ave and run send it on a straight path past KP mall, and end it right before the rockaway bridge
Floyd Bennet Field is federal parkland and given that development there is mostly banned, it doesn’t make sense to extend the subway there. The need is no longer there since Floyd Bennet Field is no longer an airport (as mentioned, it is federal parkland).
If anything, the Nostrand Avenue subway should be going to Kingsborough CC. For Floyd Bennet, the Utica Avenue subway should end at Kings Plaza. From Kings Plaza, a frequent bus service going to/from Queens (Q35) would pick up the riders to Floyd Bennet Field.
Kingsborough definitely needs a more direct route, and the 2/5 trains being extended to KBCC sounds like a whole ass blessing.
What can the MTA do to make people pay for the Bus? I see it far too much no one pays. I am tired of it because we can't fund new projects such as this extension or whatever else is planned. I would like to hear your ideas.
Way more random checks so that people fear of getting a fine.
@@OneKnifeYeHand Yes not a bad idea. I was thinking like a gate that they cant pass unless they pay then it opens outwards