Penance vs. Mudrock: Who's Better? | Arknights Analysis
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- Join: / discord
BGM: • アークナイツ BGM - Il Siracu...
Haha funny Penance analysis video. Right after the Texalter one too, I'm on a roll! Maybe at this rate I'll even upload a third video before the year ends.
Anyways, this one is lower quality than the Texalter one since I rushed script, recording, editing, and finishing touches within a day, but tbh that's already pretty good for me. Enjoy the content!
(Please don't block me squidy)
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
00:54 Kit and Skills
05:33 Analysis Layer 1
06:55 Analysis Layer 2
11:15 Overall - Hry
03:07
I meant the IS#3 stage with defence crushers and demolitionists, but forgot to put the stage pic. 3am editing things.
The stage is called Supervision Site I believe
Hey @Drails
Can i have that Penance s1 gif you used in this video?
Her S1 animation is so funny and cool that i can't get bored watching it
People are misunderstanding Penance, they think they can just put her in a hard lane and expect her to hold the entire thing even whithout time to charge the skill, when you must place her preemptively to maintain her shield and the reflect, Mudrock had the upside that she doesnt scale, so is way easier to use. Honestly i find both amazing but i can get why people is saying Penance is better in general use, but without sustain you gotta play arround that.
agreed
Made that mistake when I tried to put her up against those elite croc with shield...
A good example of this is 25thnight while he was streaming for this current event's ex-stages when they came out in CN. I won't spoil anything, don't worry. Basically, when the elite sniper mafia guy came, Penance died in a few seconds without even a chance to use her s3 and the elite enemy obviously has more damage than the original along with the blood debt buff, and people in the chat were already saying that Penance is bad and that Mudrock is better. Penance requires a different playtime then just deploying her and expecting to tank a really strong elite enemy like a Shaman caster, 5, or the Regular/ Elite Crocodiles or something and expect her to have no problems, while Mudrock is usually good at killing elite enemies.
@@princenwegbu3045at's what I been trying to say when i see people trying to compare pen vs mud.
pen is stronger and tankier but only if you can keep a steady stream of fodder to throw at her, which mean she only shine when you use her as the main defender.
with mudrock, while she doesn't hit as hard she's not restricted by her skill requirement making her more flexible as main defender or laneholder.
@@TerryBear167 This is literally just like Blemishine vs Saria again with Gamepress and the nonsense that he said lol
Penance is feast or famine. If you do not feed her trash mobs she's shit but if she steamrolled the first few mobs then she can pretty much beat most of the enemies. Mudrock would perform steadily whether you helidrop her or just leave her as a lane holder. I prefer mudrock tho since her 2nd skill is braindead compared to penance. But that's just on me as an afknights player.
Use Penance S1 for the bonk then :v
If we pair her with crazy friendly shoot doctor guess she will be easier to use?
Mudrock S2 with a constant overflow of trash mobs(or lisarkm or blemshine) is penance S2 on steroids
I mean there is stainless and blemishine,chem,warfarin,liskarm so you can charge her without needing to touch an enemy,and be even brain dead cause she just murders everything now.
I wanna say abt this hilarious strat Idk which stage it's in chap11
Basically penance was in a vacant lane and I cheated and maxed barrier with stainless by activating skill 3 twice.Was kinda hilarious
I think they did a good job making both penance and mudrock essentially be opposites when it comes to their strengths and weaknesses. Mudrock really doesn’t want a large stream of enemies as her barrier will only block a single instance of damage, whether the enemy does 5 dmg or 5000 dmg, and can easily be overwhelmed. Penance on the other hand wants that steady stream as she can snowball and obliterate them all, but cannot do anything against enemies that hit incredibly hard and slow without that snowball, ie bosses, whereas because of mudrocks regeneration that is precisely where she excels.
But mudrock with S2 maxed is perfect for large streams of enemies, much better if all of those enemies attack her
hi drails! since the texas and penance banner is ongoing, a video going over the banners coming in the next six months will be super helpful! thank you so much for the analysis videos :>
7 days.
@@Drails still waiting
@@qurt5101 thumbnail preview cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/984826859994890291/1115648195926687854/image.png it's in the works
I feel like Penance power depend on if you can snow ball or not. If you can't snow ball Penance can't activate her skill 3 or stack her shield. Especially when you use Penance with another dps and she can't last hit the enemy or that enemy hit too slow to stack up her s3 since s3 is defensive sp.
Yeah, but there's only a small amount of stage where that's an issue
Before even watching, I feel like they're very complimentary to each other. Mudrock excels on the big slow hitters, and Penance excels on bunches of trash with the occasional big-ish elite that she can S3 through.
Penance is in a weird position, only when the lane is in just the right amount of pressure will she shine, not too high that her shield just melts without getting kills, but also not so low that someone else like mountain can also solo it with a much lower DP cost. Mudrock is just for a different situation, where you need to deal with low frequency high damage enermy, they are just not comparable as they are good in way different situations.
isn't mudrock s2 really good for high frequency enemies too?
@@Vastaway It's good for weak mobs that it can 1 shot, but frequent enemies that need 2+ hits tend to leak. Weaker enemies also eat up her shield and leave her vulnerable when high damage enemies are mixed in. The video basically highlights this best case scenario for penance and worse case scenario for mudrock.
I don't think her situation is weird at all, no more than Mudrock is. Their raison d'être is to hold a lane on their own due to unit spam being so intense on the main road that a large number of ops are necessary, it's just that their optimal lane is slightly different which is a good thing. Penance' true greatness lies in that her barrier can stack up to 300% max HP (+10% per kill, instant 130% on S3 use at M3), which should make her clock in at some 16k HP and spare change. So if there's a lane with a fair bit of fodder and a boss/super elite, she can absolutely crush it in a way Mudrock can't, especially because her passive damage reflection is also enough to let most elites kill themselves to begin with. And god forbid you have a Skalter on the map to heal and buff her attack even further. If you can find a way to slap some extra SP on her too, it's ridiculous.
@@Zinras This
Yh ok I like the content but still I don't get the situation he used like it's clearly in favor of penence. He said at the start of the video that the higher ceiling of mudrock comes 15-20% of the times but generally from what I played with both these 15-20% cases are very very crucial where mudrock utility is Really really necessary like stun and most importantly the initial 3 hit immortality. Like what penence does will most likely you will be able to do with a defender and a ranged guard. Like I remember for il siracuno event boss I used mudrock initial 3 shields to tank the boss so that my DPS can finish the job. So imo the 15-20% where mudrock will be more useful is actually very crucial in practice as supposed to on paper.
Honestly after using them both, I'd say Mudrock is better.
Penance feel *actually* unable to be healed, as the only time she requires healing is when enemies got through her shield, and if they did that, passive healing isn't going to do much. Yes, I am aware that this is arguing in her worst situation, but still valid imo. Of course if you bring Aak and buff her HP she gets meme levels of barrier though haha
Penance is of course good at clearing fodder, that's what she was made for, and is great for global range enemies, but her lack of ability to deploy straight on a boss loses points too..
Of course, Mudrock isn't better at everything, and there's some content where each of them excel, but Mudrock being easier to use and, if using S2, no real downtime on skill is probably better for most players in most content outside of CC or random IS3 maps
Penance does have this weird fun niche of killing ranged enemies, drones, global range, etc. though, and I've found that fun at least
Without looking at other comments:
- That IS-8 comparison is unfair, not only because Mudrock S2 would be infinitely better at clearing trash, but because that's a suboptimal tile for Mudrock (whereas it's a great tile for Penance). If you're going to use Mud S3 on that stage, you'd put her on Mlynar's tile so she has more time to kill fodder + recharge skill. Even then though, not using S2 on this stage is pretty weird.
- ...You're only using one stage as a comparison before your conclusion? Really undermines your argument when you only have a single stage for reference (and again, one that was sub-optimally compared).
- 10:55 is questionable as you're comparing single-target damage when Mudrock S3 shines at hitting all enemies in front of her. Regardless of how high Penance's single-target damage is when she has S3 active, that won't do as much as Mudrock would against 2-3 elites with S3. Also worth noting that if an elite is strong enough to shred through Penance's barrier (much less multiple), she's going to fold far quicker than Mudrock due to the latter's shields + invulnerability. I know this specific comparison is for a single elite enemy, but it's worth noting that Penance S3 is naturally favored in this regard since all of its power is invested into single-target damage.
Putting my own biases aside, I don't feel like this video has nearly enough evidence, discussion, or use of devil's advocate to be a believable argument. It doesn't help that this is solely your opinion rather than one developed through consulting other players (e.g. Tums) who have the know-how for this type of debate, so I'm left feeling unconvinced. Call it Mudrock favoritism if you want, but I love Penance too and think that they both shine in different circumstances that doesn't result in one powercreeping the other. Penance is a sidegrade, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Since it’s for general content, it’s weird the dralis would actually choose to compare Murdock s3 instead.
In terms of survival, penance needs to be fed trash mobs before his barrier is ready whereas Murdock gains a shield that can mitigate any instance of damage. In addition, if penance were to take damage from elites, there’s no sub substain on his kit. Whereas Murdock will be back to full hp in no time. As such I fail to see how pendance is a sidegrade.
In fact since it requires trash mobs as an additional layer of resources to function as well as his skill isn’t auto cast, I would say he is only really good if in very niche scenarios. Bro will struggle against high CC Faust without a constant stream of enemies on that lane and even Viviana.
I mean tbf in the general playing areas she’s not exactly needed or essential but same can’t be said for things like high risk cc in which Murdock is VERY essential for certain things that no one else can fill or at least it’s be rly hard to
I use both in IS3, but more often than not I prefer Mudrock due to her S2 being amazing at holding waves when she's only at E1, and her S2 gets extremely stronger if you manage to get any of the '1-second ATK bonus on skill activation' curios like the Spinach, Reagent, and the Spaghetti. Though Penance feels better to use if you manage to get any of the Defender booklets.
Main issue with her is if she loses her barrier and takes damage it wont be healed instead the barrier will go over where her hp was supposed to be filled
This is truly one of the analysis videos ever. Points were brought up, stats were shown, arguments were debated and countered, a verdict was announced.
This deserves the crown among the Arknights Analysis content circle, surpassing even Yii and Kukkikaze.
All hail Drails-sama.
wtf
@@Drails can’t tell if he hated it… or??
This comment has an amazing structure, AND I agree!
Me who running both in every content see this videos belike 😮
Btw, good video bro 🎉
Penance is great and all, but I'm gonna have to wait on the Coral Coast verdict before I make my decision. So far, my favourite Sarkaz remains the heavyweight champion.
I love the skill 1 swinging gif
Perfumer 34: Everyone is healed, no exceptions.
Skalter 35: if HP not full yet, it soon will be.
Would you do Highmore vs La Pluma next?
interesting comparison! theres one thing i do not understand though. why would you use mudrocks s3 to in the elite horde example. that's where you use s2 so she can sustsin through heavy dmg from multiple strong sources, no?
the conclusion of penance being better for the general playerbase also seems weird when you use cc ss a measure. the general playerbase doesn't go past risk 18, and even that they usually reach with a guide. in general content s2 mudrock is a very essy, strong and convenient "fire and forget" type that yhould be what most players would rather use
because against any self-respecting elite horde, s2 just dies
even considering the weakest example of 'elites' in is8, s2 can't hold up - and i can't pick a stronger example such as CN maps or, idk, CC3, because then mud s3 offskill will also die v fast
@@Drails huh. just tested it and she really does die to the cleaner in is8, at roughly the same time as with s3, so roughly the same performance
Thanks for the reply!
Caution, this is going to be a bit long because I want to explain things in full detail. TLDR is at the bottom.
I feel like comparing Mudrock to Penance is just like the times where Blemishine and Saria, Schwartz and Pozemka, Exia and Archetto, etc are compared. They are both two of the same archetypes but have different roles. For example, Exia is good for burst damage, while Archetto is good for manual timing, sniper sp recovery (syncs with Blue Poisons s1, Archettos s1 for AFK, Meteor and Meteorites s1, etc) and multi target with her s2 or s3. She can also charge her s3 really fast initially with her module, or you can even use her shield to bait attacks 🤷♂️
This is the same principle to Penance and Mudrock. Mudrock excels in self-sustain and lane-holding by herself most of the time, and her s3 can really shine at times with the initial slow, then stun and high AOE dps. Penance I see as someone excelling at tanking a lot of heavy damage, reflecting damage, barrier and taunt.
I feel Penance is kind of looked down because of the fact that Mudrock is efficient in 95% of stages, making it feel pointless to raise another Eminity guard that can't even self heal. Also Penance arguably requires more effort to use because of the manual use. I use Mudrock a lot for trust farming and afk, she's also my main blocker and physical dps for SSS, like more players, because she can outlive the beefy enemies whole doing good AOE damage and self heal. She's just so good at what she does, and doesn't really take much effort to use. It's is really unnecessary to raise Penance if you have Mudrock, but she looks like a unit with a lot of potential, and she's kinda cute.
TLDR: Even though Mudrock pretty much is OP enough, Penance is still a good unit with a lot of versatility and is useful for different moments. Both have different uses despite having the same archetypes, just like Saria and Blemishine.
Principally, comparing any unit that shares a similar role shares some merit because of the reductivity of "just use both" - because if you "just use both" all the aforementioned operators, then you end up with a squad of Penance Mud Exis Ash Schwarz Pozy etc etc, which is clearly unintuitive. In a regular 12-unit squad, Penance is *more* likely to replace Mudrock if you want her on your squad as opposed to another unit with an entirely different role, thus many players find themselves asking "which do I use" - hence the point of the video.
Apologies if I implicitly took a strawman from your first paragraph.
The way i see it,
They somewhat cover for each other's weaknesses.
Legitimate question: Is Penance's S3 really that much better than her S2? From what I've heard and seen, her S2 is really strong and can do thousands of AOE DPS per second around her while making her unkillable during the duration? S3 does seem really good too, but feels like she could leak a lot if her solo lane gets rushed
i've been consistently disappointed by s2 every time i used it, it really doesn't hold up
like 1.3k arts/s is really insignificant long run imo
@@Drails I'll give S3M3 first a try, thanks!
I don't think u can leak unless tank 3 Big HP enemy, she reflects 2k arts dmg each hit so small HP enemy die faster without need penance bonk
But also I doubt with same situation S2 outshine S3 if big boys is keep coming
The only good thing S2 is Auto Recovery SP
I prefer use AOE caster than losing tons dps from Penance S3
whoever made that thumbnail deserves all the praise
excellent job
passed the message
Penance is a beast in annihilation since it always starts off with weak enemies, once you stack up her shield from the start, she is always the last operator standing when your whole squad dies.
Have you tried using mudrock s2 on the is-8 test? Because i'd say that her go-to laneholding skill is s2
she dies really fast there
Yh ok I like the content but still I don't get the situation used like it's clearly in favor of penence. He said at the start of the video that the higher ceiling of mudrock comes 15-20% of the times but generally from what I played with both these 15-20% cases are very very crucial where mudrock utility is Really really necessary like stun and most importantly the initial 3 hit immortality. Like what penence does will most likely you will be able to do with a defender and a ranged guard. Like I remember for il siracuno event boss I used mudrock initial 3 shields to tank the boss so that my DPS can finish the job. So imo the 15-20% where mudrock will be more useful is actually very crucial in practice as supposed to on paper.
It's fun to play 7-18 with just using penance all over again, it's satisfying.
Nice to see a decent balance where each unit can do some things the other struggles with. Just like Phantom vs Texas, right? Right?
Yea of course Phantom didn't get Powercreeped just like What Surtr did to Skadi
Both of them needs Blemishine talent to shine brighter.
- Mudrock is more reliable. Her s2 gave her sustainability and crowd control (*with blemi's talent, o'boi she can really hold'on her line), while her s3 give her ability to toe to toe with heavy hitter. Her skill is interchangeable, and not restricted by the map.
- Penance is sturdier and stronger, but she's nicher, due to her mechanics and only available s3. she's as good as her 'snow balling' shield, so unless we can feed her some fodder, her shield will not reach its maximum potential. That, and because penance have no way to heal herself, i've an urge to carry ishar'mla/angelina whenever i include her in my squad.
i have both Mudrock and Penance my defense is unbreakable with these
Penance is worth it solely for her ability to beat The Last Knight... That fight is such a pain, and only a few units really excel in it at high difficulties.
Equal overall, but excelling at slightly different things.
Both have damage and sustain, Mudrock is more consistent while Penance is more burstlike in both damage and survival.
what if you put them up with blemishine
To be fair I found the video pretty interesting but that comparaison on the IS-8 stage was pretty meh imo, Mudrock S3 wasn't a good situation to be used here with S2 she would do the laneholding job better, she might still be killed by the crossbowman but once again for laneholding situation like this it was a pretty bad exemple imo.
S2 doesn't work there, I tried and she leaks + dies; it was on the borderline between S2/S3 because stages which heavily require S3 will just massacre her offskill without help
@@Drails Alright my bad then, I think I start to understand Mudrock is easier to use (most often you drop her in a lane and you forget her with S2) but might need some support in some cases to help killing high def ennemies or elite/boss while Penance need the right conditions to work well but when she does she will perform better than mudrock thanks to the reflect against the trash mob and her high attack with S3 and she can take care of elite/boss ennemies easely as well.
IMO the change to make w Mud S3 on that stage is to have her further back in lane so you can compensate for the leaks and then start S3 when the archers come through (which is what I did on my own clear). While I get that the solo placement is a good way to show the theoretical ceiling of the two operators, in practice I would never put Mud there solo knowing the limitations of her skills.
Penance has big fluffy tail, Mudrock does not. Case closed
"What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" basically summarizes Penance
nice video.
are you from sg too btw ;-;
Danzai!!!!
4 PENANCE IN 20 PULLS????
That is just insane
Man,... I have max pot Penance no texas in 200 pulls... someone pls send help
I just m3 second still and got Mudrock to E290 😢 Well I still like her design, if things leak so be it. I will level Penance after, and put them together as a team, hopefully next to a Blemi one day 😂
Better overall goes to mudrock. I get it you're biased, i like her too. But the fact you can just drop Mudrock on stages and forget about her is the whole reason she carries the entire Episode 10 on her back. And it's not even close.
Penance is better for niche fights that might be hard without her. And now they are suddenly easy as hell. Anything that has artillery units or range units spamming you across the map, she feels absolutely nuts.
Meanwhile me who has both and tried putting them in the same team. OOOOOOVERKILLLL!!!
Use both plus blemishine hehe
Doctors that pulled Stainless: Muahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!
I mean, this is a new player's perspective for lower difficulty content (just started chapter 7) - maybe she becomes good at E2, but at E1 lvl 60 she feels so useless that I'd rather have Spot or Beagle + a healer for my tank. At the same time every time I've borrowed Mudrock, she was absolitely bonkers, destroying trash, always full health. nothing hurts her.
So I dunno what general content is meant when people are talking about Penance, but at E1 I find her literally useless in story/IS2, while Mudrock slaps everybody =p I guess Penance is for experienced people who can E2 lvl 90 S3M3 her and then use her at some specific difficult stages.
Yeah, that Arts Reflect on E2 is a very big deal, barrier generation per kill is improved from 6% to 10%, and her third skill gives her a lot of Atk then thereby improving her Arts Reflect damage as well as dealing good single-target damage, so E2 is overall a pretty big jump.
penance doesn't really become a unit until e2 as a statstick s3 machine, yea
Penance doesnt do a satisfying spin bonk every two seconds.Thus MudMud is still superior
Penance requires her own style from Mudrock.
Penance requires less support to do very well, and can dumpster entire maps (literally can solo 7-18)... But isnt as good when supported, as Penance really needs to kill the enemies herself to survive.
A great example is CC events, where Mudrock is a staple for the toughest lanes with DPS support. (Like Ifrit in CC3) but really struggles alone.
While Penance can hold her own guarding a lane, such as in CC12 where she holds a side lane alone.
it's a tie!
As someone who has both, just use both
Forever mudrock...🔥
Laneholding aside. I'd argue Penance is obviously way better vs ranged dmg dealers. It's hilarious how hard she counters stuff like the Lazurites.
Mudrock has Carry me through chapter 10 which i think penance cant do so ill choose mudrock over penance
Penance:Long spin bonk
Mudrock:Heavy Brain damage bonk
Wished her skill 1 was Defensive so She synergies better with Blemishine
Penance or Mudrock? Just use both lol
With 72 DP in total? DP Printers might run out of cartridges at that point.
Inefficient strategy.
Already have Penance at M6 and soon M9, big justice lady made me play defenderknights in the past couple of days
Just use both 🙃
TLDR: Generally penence is better,but she suffers harder from stat nerfs than mudrock,and performed less than mudrock against ridiculously stat boosted bosses.
I love my hammer girls
obviously use a pocket angelina and all your problems are gone
who?
ange doesn't really do much for either unit lol
@@Drails use angelina and all your problems are gone.
Mudrock cute af tho
why not just use both?
Both costing 36 DP each at Elite 2 might make them a *little* expensive, so your DP Printers have to work overtime, you need some patience or a bit of both, especially in a few strategies where you need to redeploy them and they can cost up to double the amount.
my friend youre forgetting 1 thing. most veteran day 1 players have gotten hella lazy and are very much set and forget type people. and mudrock clears that with s2 easily
Got 5 penance, no Texalter. If I could delete a single operator from the game, it would be her. Forget this useless judge
Go the extra mile for pot 6 and embrace your inner judge
You talk about general use. yet in your comparison, you compare with mudrock s3 instead which led to her dying. why not use mudrock s2 and we shall see whether any mobs leak? you are blatantly biased to penance maybe you just do not realised it yourself.
Just run both lol. Nowadays you probably will need two lane holders anyway.
not really optimal in an later-game comp because they're both low damage high dp cost units very strong solo - oftentimes there's a side lane and a main lane, wherein you want stuff like chalt etc on main lane and not a primary laneholder
@@Drails It's probably my style of play then. I prefer to spawn camp and divide and conquer stages rather than bunch them all together and try to wipe them out in one go.
This video sounds like you just read siracusano and developed bias for penance so now you want her to be better lmao, said you had the notion of her being better for a while but i swear it was you who called her a mid tier 6star in one of ur latest videos before u took the break.
mudrock is best against heavy hitting slow hitters and penance is the opposite, outside of this simple situational comparison mudrocks s3 and shields provide a whole world of utility while penance struggles to do much outside of tanking and high single target dmg, all of which mudrock would most of the time be able to also provide just as well if not better, her arts reflect is a nice thing to have but its rarely ever useful enough to be the deciding factor in any discussion, and you also used a stage from an event which was literally made for the character. This video feels so insanely biased that I'm struggling to even take it seriously, I normally expect better from someone who i consider to be the best at making these sort of videos
I thibk penance having the strongest reflect in the game by far is not insignificant.
Ok sure
@@sora5982 reread what i said and delete this dumb reply
I... I play CN and have Penance AND Mud M6/M9 on both servers? When Penance dropped on CN I held the opinion for 3+ months that Mud was better, but gradually warmed up to her over time. Opinions change, and general CN is growing fonder of her.
The analysis you mentioned is hard to argue with, because it's really just a clash on how you use them. I've tried my best to provide examples and gameplay to demonstrate why, in the average case, Penance is superior, and how in the 90% percentile case, Penance can still hold her own sometimes. Nowhere have I conceded Mud's higher ceiling or her insane potential with S3, but rather that on the strict comparative between S3s on general use, Penance is significantly superior.
I do expect this type of initial-jerk reaction to this video, and there's probably nothing I can say *now* to convince you of the contrary, but maybe in the future you'll think differently.
On a sidenote, thanks for making a civil comment wrt opinion differences, though, and not straight up attacking me or whatever.
@@Drails I don't see where this "significantly stronger" is coming from, you mentioned even in the cases where mudrock is superior penance can still hold her own, but you never mentioned how the vice versa is also true. and sorry if i worded myself poorly im not saying there is anything wrong with ur opinion on who is the better unit im just saying you did a poor job of explaining the facts in an unbiased way
Texalter.
Texalter is better.
penance better
Penence is better, speaking from experience as maxed out mudrock main, glad I got pot 2 penance and pot 6 texas alter as F2P 😂
The real question is which mudrock skin you should be using?
Mudrock Gang
I'm so used to afk lane holders that I always forget to activate her skill and she leaks 🥲