Why don't MLB Players Care About This Stat Anymore?
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2023
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Hello everyone. Please let me know what you think of batting average and whether or not it is a good or bad stat to evaluate a player. - Hry
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The one thing people don’t talk about enough on why AVG is important in baseball: baseball is entertainment, and lower AVG means less balls in play, less pressure on the defense, and less overall action.
“A walk is the same as a single” doesn’t pass the eye test for a fan, and isn’t true either (since a single has a chance to send other runners more than one base and has approx 2% chance of an error that could lead to additional bases on the single.
Let’s not forget baseball isn’t played on paper, it’s played on a field and it’s for entertainment, and hits are entertaining.
Batting avg is definitely important, and I hate that so many of these new school fans have let it become less significant. With all these low batting avgs across the league, it definitely makes the game less entertaining
Limit bullpen use. You think if I'm a starter I'm going to be trying to pitch to huge sluggers like Ohtani or Harper in the 7th inning? Let those guys get their 100 BBs for the season because if you had to pitch to them every AB they're going to be getting 60 HRs easy
@@barbaryn7899 Besides if their team aren't good, walking them will neutralize the threat anyway. With that said I think the OP's point is that nowadays people seem to put too much stock on just power and walks while forgetting they still need to put the ball in play consistently. You have someone like Gallo who can barely hit above the Mendoza line at his better years and still gets considered as an All Star. At least to Ohtani's credit the guy's batting average has improved.
@@barbaryn7899
Maybe Harper was a bad example for your point. When you wrote that Harper hadn't hit a homerun in like a month. Not sure if he's hit one since then because I don't care enough to check.
@@_MjG_ Harper is one of those players who isn't easy to peg since he tends to be inconsistent from year to year plus the injury issues. One year he's a legit MVP contender who is also a threat for the batting crown, then the next year he's hitting like Adam Dunn. The guy's a rollercoaster.
The game has become so boring that I can hardly endure a full nine innings anymore. That may say more about me than the game, but this emphasis on hitting home runs above everything is dull beyond words. Hitting for average used to mean the difference between a journeyman and a great of the game. Now it's seen as entirely incidental to success in a league where the Mendoza line has fallen to .186 and OBP is more a function of drawing walks than making good contact.
Hits are important because the object of the game is to score runs, which requires advancement past all four bases. When a batter gets a hit, that's extremely conducive to scoring runs-- the batter reaches base safely and any runners on base almost invariably advance at least one base, many times two bases even on a single. Hits are extremely productive. That's why they're used to show a batter's worth. Modern metrics like on-base and slugging percentages give a more detailed view of a batter's productivity, but raw average is still quite revealing.
I agree, even OBP and SLG can be deceptive if the batters other stats are not great. Batting average will always be relevant but hopefully people get less scared of other metrics used along side it.
@@TapirBaseball it is like bailey said about in a hot take video that ba is actually important but only cause of obp and slg being alongside. What has to done It should go up despite if the player hits for power or contact make a 100 something be the average level and try remaking the stat to make it more harder to grow like a triple or a double gets past/defender didn't get near it it counts could a rule change in the game for the stat
OPS is the stat I like to use to evaluate hitters. It's a bit more all encompassing and represents a little bit more of how far they advanced on the base paths. OPS+ is particularly valuable too when comparing players to different eras because sluggers in the late 90's are going to have much different stats historically while comparing a player to their peers allows us to see how much they stood out. If we ignore that than we'd just assume that the greatest hitters all played in the steroid era without considering the quality of other players at the time.
I like OPS for a quick and dirty look at a player. It doesn’t tell the whole story but is pretty easy to understand with one look. ERA+ shows us just how good guys like Pedro were during that era too.
i like woba more, it more properly weighs each outcome
@@smoceany9478 i also like woba and xwoba but truthfully there's not a huge difference between OPS+ and wRC+ (derived from wOBA) with there being only a max 5 point gap in most cases which really isn't much
What you said at around the 2:10 mark reminds me of what I told a friend of mine when Frank Thomas reitred after 2008. He had a career .301 average when he retired, and i said to him that i was glad Thomas retired when he did, because one more season and his lifetime BA would have most certainly dropped below .300.
He would still have been remembered as one of the best right-handed hitters ever (his numbers from 1991-1997 and 2000 were insane). But there IS something about retiring with an average over .300, no matter what your other numbers may have been.
Just ask John Kruk...
There is something in our heads about certain milestone numbers that really excites the human brain.
Mickey Mantle has that regret.
@iamhungey12345 Very true. That's a big one. Another name that comes to mind is Jim Rice.
Joe Torre batted .297 with a career 57.5 WAR primarily as a catcher. Hard to believe he wouldn’t have been in HOF as a player if he hit .300
@@sum-tim-Wong Albert Pujols Has An Career .296 Average Which Ain't Bad
I dont really think anyone should ever use 1 stat to judge a hitter, they should use multiple because they all tell different stories (mostly)
I agree, an .800 OPS with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG does not equal an .800 OPS with .400 OBP and .400 SLG
wOBA is pretty good for hitting alone. WAR pretty good for total value
Obs+ pretty good for general hitting
Batting average is a good stat to judge a hitter and on base percentage.
I think it is a good start and should always be considered. But as you said, it should not be the only stat.
It is not sufficient, but it is necessary.
I don’t know how people say average doesn’t matter at all, I don’t think it’s end all be all but it helps out with on base percentage and nobody hits only homers and extra base hits and gets 100 walks a season, you need some hits to balance everything out
Kyle Schwarber, Max Muncy, Joey Gallo
@@spookyshark632 still peaking at a .800 ops, Gallo still needed to hit a .260 to be at his best OPS numbers in his career
@@spookyshark632 And they're currently trash.
@@breadandcircuses8127 No offense but that's a pretty stupid question considering how they are playing right now.
really great video man. love your soft tone and detailed explanations. glad i stumbled upon this channel! you got yourself a subscriber.
I appreciate you saying that. Thank you
I like batting average coupled with OBP and SLG. They are all easy to understand on their own, and taken together they give you a pretty good idea of the hitter's overall value. Average can be deceptive if OBP is low, and SLG can be deceptive as a raw power statistic if the batter has speed (I remember Mark Grace being asked why he hit so many doubles... he commented that his speed had turned a lot of triples into doubles) but generally speaking the three stats combined give a pretty good picture with numbers you can calculate in your head on a good day.
One stat I liked, and I understand the argument against it- that it's team dependant, was run production. Runs+RBI-HR. It shows you how many runs a hitter factored into. The argument against it is that it's dependant on having people drive you in and having people to drive in, but we don't seem to have a problem with Runs and RBIs as stats. It combines the two nicely, without doubling you up for hitting a homerun. If I'm limited to X number of stats, give me plate appearances (as a general gauge of how often teh player is actually healthy enough to play... it falls apart sometimes with rookies who get late call ups, but gives a fairly accurate starting point), BA, OBP, SLG, RP and SB. Give me a lineup I've never seen but give me those stats and I can put together a logical batting order.
I like everything you brought up. Also very smart to consider SLG can be deceiving for fast runners. I wish there was also a stat that factored base running into how impactful it was in scoring the run (EX. The batter stole second before a single brought him in and the rest of the batters got out without advancing any runners) I think whether or not you’re able to leg out an extra base while you’re already on base is something that isn’t properly being valued.
@@TapirBaseball I think in eras where you have more steals and fewer home runs k% starts to be important. I can't imagine guys striking out close to 200 times a season being great at hit and runs. :)
Great video, i haven't even watched more than 5 seconds and i see where this is going. You've got a great understanding of what's going in baseball right now and the subsequent statistical anomalies
I appreciate you saying that
Great video! It’s tough because batting average is such a traditional stat that some still take as the end all be all stat. You mapped out the argument very thoroughly and I agree with a lot of points you made. Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much, I really enjoy your videos so this comment means a lot.
BA is the reason why all of those advanced stats were even created. Ler's face it, the higher the BA, the higher its proportiom to the advanced stats also become. It should never be taken for granted
Exactly. Tired of hearing teenaged math nerds tell me batting average isn't important, OBP is the important stat. Yet batting average makes up most of a player's OBP, so how's it useless? They get too caught up in the whole "those stats my grandpa used are useless and outdated" bullshit.
I distinctly remeber bsck in the mid 2000s that. .250 average was bad and bottom of lineup.
Now our best hitters all bat .250
To be honest back then if the batters hits around .250 they would get bit of a leeway if they have home runs to make up for it. For example in the 1950s and the 1960s you have guys like Brooks Robinson and Harmon Killebrew whose career BA were in the .250s to .260s. While Brooks had few years where he batted above .300, Harmon on the other hand bats .260 to .280s in his prime which are accompanied by years of sub-.250 average seasons in the mix. Just not at Mendoza level like it is now.
I’m new to the sport but I find the videos you make informative compared to others I’ve seen.
You bet tiger
Baseball is a game of consistency, unlike other sports. discounting games that go into extra innings, there are a finite number of outs which means a finite number of at-bats hitters get every game which is normally about 3 -4 turns. One hitter has only 3 or 4 chances to impact a game offensively. This makes consistency one of the most important attributes for a hitter.
@breadandcircuses8127 The method for achieving maximum consistency ???
@breadandcircuses8127 The best approach for a hitter is a try to put the ball in play and avoid striking out. By putting the ball in play you make the defense have to work. You have a chance to get on base on an error, move runners, score on a sacrifice, or get a hit . If you strike out you're making it easy on the pitcher.
@breadandcircuses8127 It's not the total number of hits that you get that's important. It's the ability to put the ball in play every at-bat and not strike out. For example, Hank Aaron Barry bonds Ichiro Suzuki.
@breadandcircuses8127 I don't know what that is but if it's a videogame I can tell you that I'm a computer programmer and video games are not real life. It's like comparing cartoons to real life.
I do not know a lot about baseball but found the topic interesting. Looking forward for whatever topic is next.
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I look at the batting average now the same as I do the ERA of a bullpen pitcher, it doesn’t tell the whole story and there are more stats to look at beyond the ERA (WHIP, BAA) to name a couple.
ERA for relievers can be very deceptive
Lol. Found it interesting you snuck in some IPL highlights in the video, @The Tapir.
Glad somebody noticed lol
Kyle Schwarber is a good example. Phillies lead off player, regular gets home runs, crazy good on-base percentage but he has a crappy 180 batting average. Rarely hits it, but as long as he gets on base (by whatever means) and drives home grand slams, he's a great player.
The problem? With a sub-Mendoza line batting, his power doesn't really make up for it and his OBP have been down as well.
Ted Williams popularized the two metrics slugging percentage and on-base percentage. Stan Musial was close to Williams on batting average but way behind on on-base percentage due to Musial getting fewer walks.
Nice video, look forward to more
Base hits win ballgames. Sacrifice flies win ballgames. Oh, and btw there’s no extra runs for exit velo in either of those two cases. A strikeout has never and will never win a ballgame. (For the hitting team obviously) It’s never okay to strikeout. That’s an unproductive at bat.
Is this an argument against what I was saying? Because I said you should still value batting average, it just doesn’t tell the whole story about a hitter.
When a batter steps to the plate they still put his batting avg on the scoreboard. It will always mean something.
Kyle Schwarber's stat-line for this year is just fascinating. Slash line of 189/333/459; 38 home runs (as of Sept 2), wRC+ of 113, WAR under 1.
Schwarber is no stranger to posting interesting stat-lines. He always finds a way to make it interesting. A WAR at 0.0 with 598 PAs is a very funny looking sight.
OBP and SO% are baselines for me to see what kind of hitter the player is.
OPS is a final stat that helps determine if those hits are going for extra bases or not...lastly, some players do extremely well with empty bases and others with RISP
Batting average alone doesn't tell the story about a player's real value, but some of the very most valuable players have always had a very good batting average. Guys like Stan Musial, for example. But Stan always said the stat he was most proud of was Total Bases. And Musial still has the most Total Bases of ANY left-handed hitter in history. I love the Total Bases stat. For example, even though Barry Bonds hit 287 MORE home runs than Musial, Stan still ended up with more Total Bases. And Stan and Barry both played 22 seasons. You need to look at more than average for sure. Another stat I love is Extra Base Hits. Top 5 All-Time are. . .Aaron, Bonds, Pujols, Musial and Ruth. What team wouldn't love having any one of those guys in their lineup?
I didn't know that stat about Stan the man, thank you for telling me. I still think batting average is good at showing a batters bat to ball/contact ability and good hitters tend to be pretty good at putting the bat on the ball.
Doesn't slugging percentage take total bases into account? So Stan would have been a fan of slugging percentage as a metric.
Joey Gallo is NOT an above average hitter and that's why OPS+ is not a valid stat, add WAR as well. The guy is hitting 50+ points lower than comparable players and that's on the low end. You have to score runs to win games, that's the bottom line and Gallo hits HRs for sure but he doesn't put the ball in play.
-He's a poor hitter w/ RISP
-SO's every 2 ABs
-Doesn't put the ball in play
-Leaves runners on base and can't move runners up.
-Does he have great exit velocity? Sure but what good is that when your contact % is hot garbage?
His best attribute is his defense and even those are down.
Good stuff
Joey Gallo does score runs, though. He gets lots of runs and RBIs, and he was on some pretty bad Rangers teams, so it's not like those numbers are boosted.
This is just wrong. Ignoring walks? Gallo is 95% percentile this year in walk rate.
Just breaking down this season. In 165 plate appearances, Gallo has 62 Ks for a 37.2 K rate. League average is 22%. So, that means Gallo has about 25 more strikeouts than the average guy with the same amount of PAs. Does that matter? No.
98 of those PAs had the bases empty. 39 of those PAs were with runners in scoring position...and his OPS is 1.065 in that situation with an .410 OBP. (!) He struck out 15 times in that situation, which is 6 more than some average dude who probably moved two of those runners over with a "productive out." Who cares?
For his career, he has identical splits with men on base and with RISP as he does with nobody on base. This doesn't make him a "poor hitter w/RISP." He's an above average hitter by almost any metric...and just because you don't understand things like OPS+ and WAR doesn't mean they aren't useful.
You probably think Adam Dunn was trash too. Three-true outcome players might feel like trash to a traditionalist or casual fan, but they can do a ton of offensive damage despite their high K rates. This gives Gallo value, which is why the Twins were willing to sign him for $11 million this year. He's done exactly what they hoped for.
@@jayballauer8353 Walks isn't going to make up for struggling to hit even at the Mendoza Line.
@@spookyshark632 Those Rangers teams from 2017 to 2019 scores over 700 to over 800 runs along with 200+ homers each season. I know you wanted to defend Gallo but being misleading isn't a way to go since the guy wasn't exactly carrying the line up in those years, especially when he has trouble hitting at the freaking Mendoza line for the most part.
Batting average is part of the beauty of baseball because it allows people to talk about players 90 years ago to measure them against their competition at that time and reference that against similar scenarios today. many of these more recently popular stats are just tools for gamblers. The only new stat that is valuable is WAR, but that is also because it can be used across over a century of baseball.
I like the ability to measure players across generations
Wouldn't really call WAR a "new" stat. While most people are just becoming familiar with it, it has been around since the 1980's sometime.
Ops and batting average work well together
Great vid.
Nice video! Subscribed!
BA doesn't encompass enough to be a useful one number stat, but isn't specific enough to give much detailed information on a batter.
No single stat encompasses enough to be a useful one number stat.
It's not just Batting average that's ignored, it's the good ol "runs" Stat that's ignored as well. Every year the players that are considered the best statistically usually lead in the runs category. Sabermetrics are cool but are overvalued at times and can be extremely deceiving. WAR is over used as well. It should only be used if it is astronomical. Some decades just have more talent than others, or rules more conducive to the time allowing for more defense and less offense and vice versa.
after decades of watching bb i conclude the best stat is don't make outs. a team generally has 27 outs per game. outs are precious. don't waste them. they are akin to money.
the less outs you make, the more baserunners you get. the more baserunners you get the better your chance of scoring. the less outs you make, the longer you get at bat. no team has ever scored a run when they are in the field.@@breadandcircuses8127
When Braves players were asked recently if theyd rather be a career 300 hitter or hit 500 home runs every person I saw said hit 300. Id take the 500 bombs.
Putting the ball in play is still vital as it creates more opportunities and pressure. Doubles and triples come from contact. First to third on a hit also doesnt happen on a walk.
Compare runners stranded.Or ave with your team tied or behind.
Baseball is ENTERTAINMENT, the moment we let nerds into the business we make it boring. You can tell me what you want, a hit is ALWAYS more fun than a Walk. So I can understand that the GMs use the stats to make their decisions, but that should never have been made public.
Kevin Costner put it best in Bull Durham.. the difference between 250 and 300 is about 25 hits. Its not that much when you think about it and there is so much more that goes into it. Will you take Soto at .250 with a .400 obp? Or a .275 hitter with a .330 obp? That guy might have a few more hits than Soto but Soto is getting on base 7% more often over all, and likely working the pitch count much higher than the other guy.
Money shit i mean ball
Destroyed baseball..
In L.A we have Cris Taylor
With 200 Ks in 500 a bat thats garbage
Would you rather have a pitcher go 20-3 with a 5.34 red or 10-16 with a 2.78 era???
It may not over 162, but I like a guy with some average in the playoffs.
Williams hit for power and average unheard of today, at the rate he did it. Not to mention that he missed 5 years in his prime fighting in 2 wars. Give him modest stats for his level during those years away he would have broken every hitting stat.
It’s crazy how he won the triple crown, went to war for 3 years, came back and won it again in his 2nd year back.
The one constant unmoving stat is 27 outs per game. A lower BA equals more outs made. The balance to a low BA is high RBI
You can only get a high amount of RBIs if the people in front of you are producing though, which is why RBI is such a flawed stat.
It's crazy how guys like Joey Galo, Javier Baez in MLB. Twenty years ago they would be in AA
That means that Archie "Moonlight" Graham still has 0 ABs.
Batting average is the most important stat by a country mile, it shows how consistent a player is. 250 hitters are garbage and not worth a contract about 500 gs
i agree. how do we have so many players hitting 30-40 homers and not even reaching 100rbi nowadays when 20 years ago someone could hit 20 homers and drive in over 100 runs?? oh idk maybe because they got HITS and didn't strike out when people were on base lol batting average is way down and so are RBIs but not many people see the correlation. what's more important than driving in runs as a batter?
@@GuidoLuzzi I agree
anyone baseball guru who says you shouldn't look at batting average when evaluating a player is like the basketball guru that tells someone don'l look at a players fg shooting percentage when evaluating a player. It's all about HR in baseball or in basketball, its all about 3-p shooting average. Sadly it is kind of the case in both sports!!!
Nice comparison between the two sports. I’m not a basketball fan but I’ve heard similar complaints from both traditional baseball and basketball fans.
Batting AVG is so important to players with speed. Ricky Henderson as a example. Once he gets a hit, almost guaranteed that he will be standing on 2nd and 3rd base. Plus the choas he created on the infield helps the current batter with pitch selection and fielder placement.. SO % is another important factor. There are enough games where you have a RISP with less then 2 outs and a batter with high SO % is at the plate and obvious conclusion can be made.
@breadandcircuses8127 wifffff......
@breadandcircuses8127 I thought wifff was the same. Either one is correct LoL
mentioning rickey henderson here is pretty ironic. one of the reasons he was so successful was because he walked a lot, and focused on maxing out his OBP rather than his batting average. he wasnt really a high average hitter but always had elite on base skills due to his high walk rate which he could use his speed to end up on second or third from a walk. your example for batting average is a pretty good example of when OBP is much more useful
@@jodiodi333 I would think ricky has a better average then modern day players would. I did not see career stats. I always saw that man standing on a bag when playing against Yankees and BJ when I was a kid.
@@cameranmanner4701 he had a couple years in the .320 BA range but most seasons he was a below .300 hitter. for his career he hit about .280. is that a high BA today? yeah, but even in his highest BA year he didn’t lead the league in average, and with how pitchers pitch today i think even his .325 year (his best) would end up closer to .300. however, he almost always put up an OBP near .400 and if he played today i think he’d have a juan soto esq difference in BA and OBP. in short, henderson did have some good BA years in the .320 range, but what made him elite at the plate was his ability to draw walks.
Xavier Edwards is so underrated for this exact reason. imagine a top of the lineup of Luis Arraez and Xavier edwards... back to back .340+ avg hitters
I think power hitters will naturally have lower batting averages because pitchers will give them less to hit and try to get more chases. They need to get their "singles" from walks because contact usually results in a xbh or HR.
As of June 5th, the Nationals are 1st in the NL in batting average but 12th in runs scored. The Dodgers, on the other hand, are 12th in batting average but 1st in runs scored.
That fact alone shows how imperfect a metric the batting average is.
I think it is crazy to judge a team purely off of batting average but it is still valuable for measuring a batters ability to make contact. AGAIN, I would never just use it to measure any player or team but I still think it is valuable while paired with other stats such as OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, wRC+ etc.
Batting average is definitely still important. At least for the player. It’s not as important as RBIs or scoring runs. Kinda like ERA, it’s not as important as some other stats likes wins, innings pitched or holds/saves for relievers but pitchers still care about it.
It’s the new age fans who never actually played the game that put so much emphasis on these computer stats that don’t really affect the game at all.
The 6th game of the 1986 World Series was one of the most exciting games I've ever seen(apologies to Red Sox fans). The Mets were down by several runs and they were down to their last out. The Mets won by playing small ball ie walks and base hits.
They were down by two runs, you made it sound more lopsided than it was.
And the main contributor to them winning was errors and a wild pitch.
Baseball has lost a lot of it's excitement over the years. Hitters focus only on hitting home runs while pitchers are supposed to throw 103 mph fastballs. In todays enviroment, a pitcher like Greg Maddux would never have been drafted.
hitters focus on hitting home runs because the players that hit the most home runs get the biggest contracts
@@breadandcircuses8127 I am 99% sure. Look at who are getting the biggest contracts, they are at or near the top in power numbers for their position, like home runs, and slugging percentage. I am going to leave a 1% exception for players like Ichiro Suzuki, and can help a team win despite not hitting 50 home runs. Those players are unicorns, and don't come around often.
@@cyclopsvision6370 It was like that back then as well, I mean between Tony Gwynn and Greg Vaughn, who got paid more?
These days, so many guys are either whiffing it or hitting a homer. I desperately miss small ball. So fun watching someone like Ichiro slap a single, then steal his way around the bases. It almost accomplishes the same thing as slugging, but it happens a hell of a lot more often. So isn’t your overall value more?? It was fun when a home run was more of a special treat.
As a Giants fan I am hoping Jung Hoo Lee can be a classic bat on ball type of player and bring high contact hitting to the team.
@@TapirBaseball I hope he does! It’s fun when there’s variety in a lineup, having some power hitters and some slap hitter/contact guys. It’s just weird because it feels like the power hitters back in the day at least had some discipline. You don’t have to hit .305 or something but at least .260 ish would be nice. I’ve seen a disappointing amount in the low .200’s or even .180’s. Like bruh!
Final comment about hitting only singles as not of any value is overstated. A single is better than a walk in many ways, which I’m sure you can see.
@@breadandcircuses8127one example would be having a runner on second or third. Does that runner score on a walk, or with a single. I think you know the answer. I’m not saying walks aren’t valuable, because they are. They’re just not as valuable as a base hit.
Batting average for most older fans was overused as a measure of hitting. Walks and HBP were generally overlooked, and a player who walked a lot may even have been valued less than a free swinger with a high batting average. Home runs were, of course, valued as long as they were 20+ in a season and greatly valued if 40+. Present day stats are much better for people who understand how to value the new numbers, but sometimes are misused by fans and even club personnel. A high batting average is generally associated with a high degree of putting the ball in play. Overlooking this is fashionable in an era of Homerun or strikeout. However, a strikout is not as valuable as putting a ball in play. Yes, it is better than grounding into a double play most of the time, but doesn't advance base runners, doesn't cause errors or misplays, and puts no pressure on the other team. Use all stats for what they can tell you.
Batting Average has become way more important for pitchers than it was in the 1980s.
Batting average will always matter. Gallo , sanches , framil reyes , and some others players are struggling because of that. Always will be important to make contacts with the ball PONCHES S.O is th worse and the only unproductive out in the game.. tampa bays is the example that the mos important in the game is reach the bases no matter what...
they have created mediocre hitters over time. Which actually leads to an even worse scale in payout. Just like pitchers aren't special anymore for getting all those Ks on these now trained mediocre hitters. Mediocrity is all over baseball and it's players desperate to conform to this new age slave system, a system now designed to pay them less over-all.
i straight up do not understand most of the comments here. how is a walk not exciting? if you pay attention you would know a worked walk shows true mastery at the plate. more than most singles. a walk is a better indicator of the pitcher's status than a weak single. i love smallball as much as the next fella, and thats why the idea of a plate discipline god with elite speed excites me so much. obp through the roof and always a threat to steal.
you dont have to stop caring about batting average. i mean you never should. but open your mind to new ways of playing the game. there will always be batting average guys (arraez, freeman) its just not every player's goal anymore. whats so wrong with that?
and i mean, at the end of the day, with no one on, a 5 pitch walk is BETTER than a 3 pitch single
Very well put. I really like good base running and If a lead off guy walks more he has more chances of showing off his base running ability.
@@TapirBaseball exactly! a guy who can becomes a huge threat to score the instant he gets on first. tension is exciting
Those high obp high stolen base guys aren't that common though. And those guys are fun to watch. But watching the average player stand up there and take a walk is boring. And for every walk that displays great discipline by the hitter, you can find another that is more a display of a pitcher's total lack of control.
I like to see a players slash line with batting average, it tells me one thing, but then OBP greatly adds to it. I don't want to see an OBP only 10 points above BA because the player doesn't walk very much. A .260 BA with a .352 OBP is better than .302/.314. Or someone who hardly ever strikes out with a .250 BA and .290 OBP? Worse has 29 GIDP, that's 29 more outs than he has made by himself. Andrelton Simmons with the Braves was like that, though not exactly, but close. Anyone with a low strikeout average sometimes have a low OBP as well unless they're hitting well with a high walk rate. I know a walk isn't as good as a hit, but it is still good and it is not an out and they're on base.
It's all interesting if you like the stats and I'm not even deep into it.
It also depends on where they’re at in the lineup. If they bat lead off and the bases are usually empty than walks hold even more value and are even closer in value to a single (I saw even closer because a single is technically still more valuable for the very low chance of a fielder making an error and the runner advancing)
A walk is a dead ball and the batter is only awarded first base. A hit is a live ball and you can have action on the basepaths. That's why I rate a single higher than a walk. Even if nobody is on base, you force the defense to hold the hitter at first, which could be an adventure if the runner is fast.
Going into the playoffs, I would rather have a team where everyone hit 270 with 15Hrs, then a team where everyone hit 240 with 25Hrs. The first team is less likely to be hot and cold.
ave. Is still important, regardless if stat nerds decided to elevate terrible hitters, like Gallo, that sell out for the long ball and are only good for the random solo shot, while striking out at a 30% clip. I will take a high average guy every time. Especially someone with a high average with RISP and RISP with 2 outs, where Gallo is sitting under .160 and .130 for his career. Dude should have long since been out of the game
@@breadandcircuses8127 I have no idea, Gallo has been garbage since he was a Ranger. Dude has had multiple 40 hr seasons and never 100 rbi's tells me everything I need to know
@@breadandcircuses8127 Yeah, in non critical situations
Maybe, but if a hitter's BA is below .200.............
Look at the 2023 Yankees and tell me with a straight face batting average doesn’t matter
If you have a bases loaded walk you knock in one run if you get a hit you can knock in up to four runs that shows average is more important than a walk its true harmon killabrew did not have a large average but he did not knock in many runs which he did by walking i think most managers do not know how to make out a batting orded like the manager in Baltimore and by the way lets get rid of these stupid pitch counts since this went into effect more pitchers have been hurt and for more time than ever before
Sometimes I feel that stats are making the game harder to watch. I just want to watch the game not try to do math😂
Do you know that was the "Fake Klay Thompson" you showed for the Warriors ?
I thought he was Lebron
A player with a .200 batting average or lower, over 200 strikeouts and less than 100 hits for an entire season is not an above average hitter, he’s not even an average hitter. This type of player is an offensive liability no matter how far you dig into stats to prove otherwise.
2021 Joey Gallo’s 121 OPS+ shows otherwise.
@@jimharper2180 No it doesn’t. No team will ever become a championship team because of Joey Gallo. There is a place for hitters like him but it’s not on a championship team.
Joey Gallo is not even an average hitter. A batter who can’t hit .200, is a full time player but can’t get 100 hits in a season, strikes out 200+ times and rarely puts the ball in play is nothing but an offensive liability. If when he gets out at least something useful or productive happened you might have a tiny argument. Joey Gallo has but 2 or 3 sacrifices in his career…..he gets out 80% of the time and yes all useless outs.
The only league you might consider Gallo to be good is on a local beer league softball team
I don’t think he is an elite hitter but he does generate more runs than the average batter thus he is above average.
@@TapirBaseball. Stats like OPS can be bloated because of home runs. Yes Joey Gallo can hit home runs, I don’t deny that. Hitting 40 home runs is impressive, until you look at the rest of his stats. When the 40 home runs is about half your hit total for the season the impressiveness goes away. Home runs raise your slugging percentage with increases your OPS. All he really does is hit a few home runs in between batches of strikeouts.
Joey Gallo strikes out a lot which means he doesn’t advance runners, he leaves a lot of runners in base, he doesn’t get on base often, he doesn’t score many runs.
Gallo has been a full time player for quite a few years and has only reached the 100 hit mark once in his career. That is not a sign of a productive hitter. There is only 1 season he managed to hit above .209 and he didn’t even play half the games that year. His career average is below .200.
He is not a good hitter and will never be the reason his team has a good season. Joey Gallo is an offensive liability for a team looking to contend.
Even though he leads Minnesota in home runs and RBI’s there have been times they pinch hit for him late in a close game because they needed base runners. Gallo is a bum and has always been a bum
@@MikeHart72 This year, Gallo's OBP is right at league average. If all of Gallo's hits were singles, then that would be an abysmal player. But unlike most players, Gallo has more HRs (11) than singles (9). He also has 5 doubles and a triple. This is more productive than an average OBP player by a factor of about 20%, which is why his wRC+ is 121 and his wOBA is .339.
Now, I have yet to find a satisfying way to account for the concept of the "productive out," such as moving runners and sacrifices, but I think that's probably overblown...which is why nobody bunts anymore...there's little value in it. Also, wOBA (and wRC+) accounts for the weighting of hits vs. walks (which varies each year). Singles are typically ~20% more valuable than walks in those computations, which reflects the importance of a single moving runners in ways that walks cannot. Moot point with Gallo since the best way to move a runner is to hit a homer.
Regardless, you can't dismiss the amount of walks Gallo routinely gets. That makes him more than a "bum."
I don't think we need a stat "hard hit percentage".
Players don't care about striking out anymore. It used to be embarrassing for a player but now they don't care. Baseball has gotten less entertaining because of all the walks and strikeouts. HITS are entertaining. Walking? Yeah that's a thrill.
stats like slg and ops are season stats, BA is a playoff stat
@@breadandcircuses8127 in the playoffs you need baserunners and timely 2 out hits. not unheard of for the slugger in a 5-7 game series to go o’fer with runners on.
These extra stats are legit the dumbest thing in baseball. Give a me guy that hits bloop singles over a guy that hits hard pop ups.
You lost me at Joey gallo. Having watched him quite alot, the assertion he’s a decent hitter is absurd. If you’re a .200 hitter, you are a bad hitter.
Players don't care about batting average because nobody gets paid for being a ground ball slap singles hitter. These days, players get paid for hitting home runs, more home runs, more money.
I meant to say Harmon Killebrew knocked in more runs by getting hits and what about all the injuries to every day ballplayers stop lifting the weights and do more running and throwing lifting weights only makes other parts of your body weaker causing injury
i prefer OBP and OPS if i’m being honest.
You describe a player who has great batting average and is not known for power or walking all that much i give you ichiro.
Ichiro is either my favorite or second favorite player of all time. It’s interesting in his MVP/ROY season he had a BA of .350 but only an OBP of .381. He was just so good he could get away with not walking.
@@TapirBaseball you don't really have to walk when you bat .381 which is your point and also he could hit almost any bitch ball or strike. just like Vlad and he never walked either and any team would love to both of those players on their team in their primes
"Obp is king " ~ another random joey votto fan
Penguinz but baseball
I appreciate it lol
Ops is the best stat
I'll take 9 Tony Gwynns in my starting line-up over 9 Pete Alonsos
Luis arraez
What is ability to hit the ball to all fields also known as great baseball player. Notice it's mostly left-handed hitters that fit this definition over the course of the last hundred years that guy is a machine. The game is changed and the old days they would have people with speed on before him and of course they would score many more runs than the sit around and wait for the three-run Home Run crap which is the norm today
@@davidjohnson6611 true. Also contact hitting allows for greater plate discipline and more obp. But I like arraez swing cause it reminds me of gwynn
@@breadandcircuses8127 it’s from a video game
If I had a choice to pay money to watch Boggs Gwynn Carew Brett et all vs Gallo et all I’ll take the former any day
Haha you’re funny….
How can it not be important it shows the percentage you get on base and on base =runs lol more runs means a win that’s just ignorant lol
If it’s so important then why don’t front offices care about it any more lol
No matter how you try to justify it, saber metrics, bloated analytics, whatever you want to call it, are killing the game. Throw in instant replay and society’s obsession with instant gratification, and you have a shell of the great game of baseball.
BA def matters tho
Lower batting averages = a less interesting game, plain and simple. I'd rather watch Kyle Schwarber hit safely in 2/3 games than bang 1HR and strike out 9-10 times every 4 games. Manufactured runs will always be a far more interesting component of the game than any non-clutch home run will ever be, but I guess I'm in the minority.
If I could watch one thing in sports it would be to see the next player who bats .400. If i knew it was going to happen before the season I would watch every at bat...
We might just see it this season
@@TapirBaseball FROM WHO!?
@@cliffwoodbury5319 luis arraez is hitting .400 and needs something like 220 more plate appearances to be a qualified batter for the whole season
Another nonsense statistical based malady batting average doesn't matter it shows a Mastery of the strike zone and it shows the consistency that no others that can show. Real baseball players already know that
I said “you should still consider batting average” you should just be aware of other stats that paint more of a full picture
oh my god we're widderwawy tha taypers biggest fans. hitting tha gwiddy
babies love baseball, what can I say
Base hits= wins, home runs= fans.
True though I'd phrase it,
Runs. = wins but even great hitters can struggle to get runs without team support. Runs are the product of being a complete hitter who gets on base, stays on base and has teammates who do the same. We like HRs because they represent pure individual success but in reality every HOFer needed solid reliable teammates hitting after them. A really good example of how stats can overrate and don't always equate to wins is my team, Padres this season. They have a silver slugger at about 4 positions and they are on the brink of falling to the cellar this season. You need a team that works together to create great individual play
I think an underrated aspect of having good teammates is you usually get the starter out of the game earlier and have more plate appearances per game.
The movie Money Ball has unfortunately skewed many fans' interpretation of hitters and the game. BA is still the most important stat, while OPS is also important. Stats reflect outcomes, but a succesful hit is still more powerful to a lineup than reaching on an error or walking. OBP has been over glorified. Momentum of the type of hitting success matters.
BS. A good batting average shows a players ability to put the ball in play and to be a good contact hitter. There are hitters now who hit 40 HRS but strikeout over 175 times a season and that is not being productive. Quite frankly that is detrimental to the game itself.
In the video I say you should still value batting average, it's just not the perfect stat to evaluate everyone solely based on this one stat. It is still important to hit for power and walk and batting average doesn't account for either.
@@TapirBaseball You did say that and I apologize for my lack of decorum. I was a ballplayer for many years and I was always a contact hitter and I took pride in having a good eye and was patient at the plate. I was taught that if you make solid contact that the HRS will come and that it's better to move base runners than to swing for the fences. I think the best stat for judging a hitter is by his average with runners in scoring position. What do you think?
You hit it on the head of the .300 batting average just looking good because most fans don’t want to dive deep into stats
See, i don’t care about these stats. None of them.
My philosophy is all about production.
The more runs you drive in, the more successful because odds are, you’re winning games.
Now, i do believe there should be a stat for rbi’s in a given situation. You could have 100 rbis in a season but they could have all been in situations where the team is up or down by a lot of runs.
Batting averages were the highest pre 1940s. Back then they didn't face as many quality pitches per game & have relievers in the game. Now all pitchers have information on what hitters can & can't hit. I know that most fans don't even realize how horrible their baseball gloves were back then as well.
Not to mention there were only fastballs for decades before the curveball was invented
Comparing baseball to football or basketball is completely stupid. Baseball is very different from other sports.
I was comparing how we value certain milestones in different sports. The point is how humans like certain milestone numbers and we tend to place a lot of value on certain milestones that are deemed productive and how missing it by just a few points causes people to not value it as much as they should. The comparison is justified.
@@TapirBaseball How do you compare things that are completely different?
Because I am not comparing how the actual sports work but how people like milestone numbers in all sports. Even outside of sports you can look at how people value $2.99 as much lower than $3.00, same thing when it comes to hitting .299 instead of .300 or getting 990 receiving yards instead of 1000.
@@TapirBaseball . Unless someone hits exactly .299 it gets rounded to .300 anyways.
@@TapirBaseball A .300 Batting avg is just a benchmark. Nobody thinks hitting .300 is better than hitting .321 because .300 looks nicer.
Batting average is all very cute ... but if you don't get on base enough outside of hits, and if you're basically a singles machine, then not nearly enough of your hits are going to result in runs scored, which is the entire name of the game. End of story.
derek jeter. ever heard of him?
If a batter hits above .300 consistently, wouldn't that normally led to high OBP as well? That type of player exists you know.