In the Prog Seat: Bands That Never Quite Topped That Debut Album
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 24. 07. 2023
- Join the In the Prog Seat crew as discuss some bands that never quite achieved the excellence of their debut again.
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My list:
5. Asia - Asia
4. Jon Anderson - Olias of Sunhillow
3. King Crimson - In The Court of the Crimson King
2. The Mahavishnu Orchestra - The Inner Mounting Flame
1. Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Emerson, Lake & Palmer
They have 3 albums (one of them Live) but U.K never topped their 1978 debut. I know it doesn't meet the requirement... Also Tubular Bells, this is the best example of it because of the SALES figures it had and what it did for Richard Branson/VIRGIN. This was a GREAT show! Thank you Mr. Pardo for gathering this team!
Glad you like Pete and the crew! I've been hooked for a year now. So much variety on his channel and knowledgeable guests. Watching his stuff led me to stumbling onto your awesome channel! Subscribe to both!
I was thinking about Tubular Bells, while Amarok is my favorite, I think Tubular Bells is objectively his best
Totally. You are spot on about Tubular Bells and how it kick-started Virgin/Branson. I think RB was living on a canal barge (possibly with a small recording setup onboard) before the cash from Oldfield's record started pouring in. He now had cash to start licensing (for instance) a lot of reggae which was a big earner for him. Tho' I probably shouldn't mention reggae here - Ha ha etc.
Late to the party yet again, big thanks to everyone really great way to spend 48 Minutes.
I really respect Ken's throwaway comment at the very end about Black Sabbath's debut album. It actually gets overshadowed by the next five albums which is unfortunate.
Great episode! This was a good way to get the lowdown on some really great prog albums.
I agree 100% with Eric Porter.....the album CHICAGO II is definitely prog. And, it was my number one prog pick last month as well.
Kevin Ayers - Joy Of A Toy
Tim Blake - Crystal Machine
Patrick Moraz - The Story of i
Anthony Phillips - The Geese and the Ghost
Steve Hackett - Voyage of the Acolyte
Bruford - Feels Good To Me
Comus - First Utterance
Ashra - New Age of Earth
Henry Cow - The Henry Cow Legend
Hello. I am a long time subscriber that has been watching your channel for some time and really enjoy it. This comment is probably a little late but I thought I would send it just for the heck of it. First time commenting. I thought I would share a short story about Ericâs pick of the introduction by Steve Morse. I used to live near Raleigh and used to go to this used record shop on Hillsboro Street. That particular day I left the record store and went in a music store about a block down from the record shop to get some strings for my guitar. There was a tall guy talking to the guys that worked in the store and they were listening to a unreleased demo . I lingered in the store and pretended to shop and listened to the music which I really was digging. I didnât, think that much about it until I bought the Introduction and saw Jerry Pecks picture on the back. Then I realized that it had been him in the store that day and they were listening to the introduction before it was released. Just thought I would share this. May be too late. Keep the good work up. Really enjoy the channel. Especially in the Prog Seat.
Thatâs so cool. Wish Jerry was playing, major talent
@@ericporter344 Thanks for the response. Your right he was a really talented Musician and Bass player. Just listened to the 3pm album on you tube and his bass is all over that. Really a shame what the music business can do to some really great musicians. Thanks again and looking forward to the next show. Also like watching For Fusion Friday shows. Take care.
@@alexhatcher1783 Thanks Alex, appreciate that you are a 4FF viewer!
Back in the day, a friend had the 3PM album...IIRC, it was a cassette. Pretty sure if it was an LP, I woulda recorded my own cassette of it.
Many thanks gentlemen.
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells
Steve Hackett - Voyage Of The Acolyte
Marillion - Script For A Jester's Tear
Emerson, Lake & Palmer
Anglagaard - Hybris
Good list! For me "Script for a Jester's Tear" contains great songs, but drummer kind of sucks... My fave Marillion is probably "Clutching at Straws".
@@zachary1966 Absolutely correct. The drummer was indeed dreadful. In my opinion, this band really took flight once Ian Mosley joined the ranks
@@zachary1966 I find the drumming bad enough that I can't listen to the album, with the exception of He Knows You Know, despite how great the songs are.
Ambrosia is the poster child for this topic.
I get it...watching some YT videos of Ambrosia (The Mike Douglas Show?!?!)...they retooled into a very, very good Pop band.
Even the debut had that one great Pop cut, right?
@@jazzpunk Yep. Love that first record. It is perfect crossover prog. Yes, Holdin on to Yesterday was a pop hit, but it has a proggy feel to it. And much of the rest of the album is quite complicated arrangements.
Billy Cobham - Spectrum
That album is impossible to top. Masterpiece.
Absolutely! Spectrum is a masterpiece.
Nice to see you Anthony
Yep Jerry Peek is from Raleigh, IIRC. And 3PM is a wonderful rekkid.
Yes, Raliegh. A band friend relocated there for a job...when he came back to Va Beach, he had that 3PM album. Peek's playing, so good, depressed me.
I noticed that happens to me a lot.
đ
When I get asked what my favourite Crimson record is I often go with either Larks or Red, but ItCotKC changed my life and made me a prog fan. I already listened to a bit of Jethro Tull, but when I heard that I soon dived headfirst into the rest of their stuff and discovered Pink Floyd, ELP and Yes soon after that. Yes, if they cut out 6 minutes or so of nonsense noodling from Moonchild it might even be better, but thereÂŽs a reason they played some or most of it all throughout their career no matter the incarnation.
Yes, I was surprised no one picked that. Especially when Pete made the caveat of saying, "it may not be your favorite, but it is considered their best by most".
It definitely fits better than ELP, imo.
Most personal choices were mentioned once all the honorable mentions were named except for the album Garden Shed by England. The band never topped this 1970s debut based on what Iâve heard. Thanks to everyone for their time spent sharing their choices.
Great shout
Saw the Morse Introduction Tour in Milwaukee at UW Milwaukee student union
About 250 people there
Fantastic
Morse, Peek, Morgenstein.
I know how much Ken loves ELP and so do I, but when it comes to my favourite album by them, I choose Trilogy over Brain Salad Surgery.
Trilogy is definitely the best ELP album.
I also agree with that. back in the 70's BSS was my favorite, but over time Trilogy has supplanted it .
BSS is great but yeah, Trilogy at the top for me too.
When it comes to Steve Hackett discography, I would go with Spectral Mornings as my favorite.
My list:
1. Univers Zero
2. Geinoh Yamashirogumi
3. ĂnglagĂ„rd
4. Comus
5. Bo Hansson
6. Amon Duul ll
7. Haikara
8. Gunesh
9. King Crimson
10. Gentle Giant
11. Hansson and Karlsson
12. Esa Kotilainen
13. Devil Doll
14. Universal Totem Orchestra
Nice pick by Ken riverside is one of my favorite bands of the last 20 yrs đđâ€ïž
Comus First Utterance. An unbelievable debut from 20 years old yesterday's kids. Many get frustrated by their sophomore ( all the fierce and craziness were gone) To keep from Crying but I think it was almost impossible to beat that masterpiece.
A true masterpiece!!!
Have you heard the debut album from Haikara? It's dynamite!
@@bertkarlsson1421 yes! Crazy stuff from Suomi. Great pick.
The most obvious choice would be King Crimson's In The Court Of The Crimson King. Although they made a few classic albums after this, nothing they did would ever top that iconic first release.
FM - Black Noise (1977)
UK - UK (1977)
Crack The Sky - Crack The Sky (1975)
Sorry but the debut looks somehow naive to me. Larks and Red I rate them higher.
@@user-cj4df7vs7w Those are both great albums, but In The Court.. was the prototype for everything we consider to be Progressive Rock.
"In The Court..." doesn't even make my top 5 KC albums, and it barely cracks the top 10 for me. Maybe an important album for the genre, but KC topped it many times over.
Agreed. Discipline my fave.
@@markjacobsen8335 Fair enough. I may be a bit prejudiced. In The Court...has always been a personal favorite.
Alright Old Man Prog and the our house gang, but no Dr. Nasser? But Anthony of Sunhillow is back.
I nailed it
An interesting show. I almost fell out of my chair when Chad proposed Steven Wilson! I like "Insurgentes" but it is very experimental and shows Steven still finding his feet as a solo artist. I was relieved when it transpired that Chad hadn't properly researched Steven's discography. I think that "Hand. Cannot. Erase." slightly edges out "The Raven That Refused To Sing (And Other Stories)" as my favourite album. I think of the latter as Steven's homage to 1970s prog while I see the former as a 21st century prog masterpiece. That said they are both superb albums and definitely Steven's best two solo albums so far.
1 - Montrose
2 - Vandenberg
3 - Asia (UK)
4 - Jeff Beck
5 - Boston
6 - Def Leppard
7 - Alan Parsons Project
8 - Ambrosia
9 - Yes
10 - Christine Perfect
I missed this episode - for the bands I know, I agree with many of these; but itâs very helpful with bands you are less familiar with and donât know where to start. Like: I know Billy Cobhamâs Spectrum is great, but did he better it? Apparently not!
Can certainly make a case for Steve Hackett s Voyage of the Acolyte.
His ACE !
âSpectral Morningsâ in my opinion is his best album.
Velvet Underground and Nico, Pink Floyd - Piper at the gates of dawn - never bettered by Floyd, De La soul - 3 feet high and rising, 1st Montrose album.
PF is a strange one. You basically have 3 versions: Syd, Gilmour/Waters and the post Waters. Iâve always liked the 1969-1983 era the best but I know plenty of people that like The first album the best and a few people that actually like the 1987-94 era the best. Lol
My favourite PF: The Wall and Dark Side of the Moon...
Great episode guys. A couple from me. Black Sabbath - 1st album, they never topped it. Family - Music In Dolls House, they had other fine albums but Dolls House - the classic, and King Crimson - In The Court of ... a classic and I dont they they ever topped it. Had other great albums but In The Court was the one for me. Cheers
There are a few videos on CZcams of that 1984 trio with Jerry Peek on bass
Comus First Utterance the other two are ok but this is legendary
Killer album!!!
Have you heard the debut album from geinoh Yamashirogumi? It's Awesome!!!
I checked for hundreds of bands in my list and I have only two that meet the criteria for this topic:
1. Marillion - Script For A Jester's Tear
2. The Alan Parsons Project - Tales Of Mystery And Imagination
I just generally don't appreciate debut album that much. I think 99% of bands improve over the years, either on songwriting or production or both.
Also, U.K. debut must be mentioned (although there are only two albums).
And in the case of Mahavishnu Orchestra, I have a strange preference for The Lost Trident Sessions. You can't consider it a studio album, but for me it's undoubtedly better than The Inner Mounting Flame. And I'm more generous to Birds of Fire, I think it matches The Inner Mounting Flame in terms of quality.
Utopia is a fantastic first album. I'd add Iron Maiden's first album - probably their most proggy. Camel's first is absolutely superb. Marillion's first although my favourite track is a B-side from that era, 'Three Boats down From The Candy'. King Crimson - In The Court of The Crimson King - some other amazing albums but none topped the beauty and majesty of the first. Solstice's earliest material - although not a specific album per se - they later released CD's of this. I prefer to Silent Dance the official first album which actually was quite a long time coming. IQ - Tales From A Lush Attic. Mike Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day. Tony Banks Curious Feeling. Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells. I agree Rick Wakeman never bettered Six Wives IMHO. For me Spectral Mornings is Hackett's best album with better more focused and rounded songs.
Great pick with Eric's choice of Utopia. It's seen as a flaw that they moved to a pop format quickly after this, but Yes and Genesis did something similar too - quite a lot later tho.
I do like their pop tunes, but the 1st is a classic they never matched
@@ericporter344 Agreed. I play that one a lot more than the others. The guitar solo in Freedom Fighters is one of my all-time faves, even if it's only 20 seconds.đ
King Crimson, and Peter Gabriel
Always a ton of fun. Thanks to all. đ. David Gilmour/ 7ïžâŁ8ïžâŁ. đđŻ
Gary đ
@@ericporter344 / your always â Acesâ in my book đđŻ
@@garyjoyce2160 you too brother
@@ericporter344 Eric, have you listened to Tipographicas God says I can't dance? Amazing instrumental Jazz-Rock album!!! Cheers!!!
Boston
Asia (but I love all their albums especially the Payne era too)
Had some Neoprog options and than Steve's honorable mentions came (Frost* and Pallas, also had Comedy of Errors and Red Sand) On Progmetal agreed with Psychotic Waltz and Riverside. Further have there Heir Apparent (all three sensational really but the classic is their debut). Queensryche, Haken, Ice Age, Lethal and Wolverine. If Marillion had not released Fugazi, Script would be my favorite now joined favorites. Same goes for Angel and Helluvaband for me.
@Chad Hutchinson - we also have 'MĂ©dias' (medium-sized) besides the minis. ;) Me, personally, I don't drink minis, but it's sort of an institution here in Portugal.
Welcome to the wonderfully shambolic universe that is The Fall, a band that I have been a fervent devotee of since my first exposure to them, back in the late 70's. Given a chance, I believe you will find yourself exposed to some of the most beautiful and original music of the last 50 years.
I have always loved Tarkus. ELP is greatđ
I would choose Anglagard. Hybris, their first album was, in my opinion their best.
Not only their best, but one of the all-time prog greats.
Court of Crimson King... never bettered. Agree with Anthony about ELP and Ken about Hackett and Riverside and even Sabbath. Good shout Professor. Nosound-Sol29 anyone? Great episode. Thanks everyone.
mahavishnu orchestra-the inner mountain flame
cynic-focus
u.k.-u.k.
lenny white-venusian summer (fusion albums only)
pere ubu-the modern dance
World Trade debut on Polydor in the UK, featuring Billy Sherwood, Guy Allison, Bruce Gowdy. The aftermath never got close, only because their debut was one of the greatest pomp/prog/aor albums of all time
One can always rely on George mentioning the great Psychotic Waltz, great! Though I disagree on this. A Social Grace is amazing, but I like Into the Everflow a tiny bit better.....
I agree with Ken- I would have Riverside on the list too!
Jerry Peek was playing with David Ragsdale back in the late 90's- Early 2000's .
Pete, please do the same thing for the Monday night show. I could list 100's just thinking of Death Metal bands đ
This show took the topic from that one. They did it a month or two ago
1st albums by King Crimson & ELP come to mind right away tho......
Out of Myself absolute classic
My picks:
1; Starcastle
2. Curved Air
3. Greenslade
4. The Tangent
5. Rick Wakeman
HM's: Steve Hackett, Fish, Steve Howe, Asia, Riverside
@seaoftranquilityprog Quick question: where did you buy the Frank Zappa shirt Pete...? Thanks...
Great topic. Perhaps as a companion topic, the artist's last album is best?
Probably too close to this. czcams.com/video/T2UfWIo8jQg/video.html
Rare Bird - Not the band đ
Type O Negative - Dead Again. Goth prog?
I see Inner Mounting Flame
Utopia RA is stellar album. â€
My top 7 picks in no particular order: Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
Steve Hillage - Fish Rising
Arti E Mestieri - Tilt
Ash Ra Tempel - Ash Ra Tempel
Neu! - Neu!
Shub-Niggurath - Les morts vont vite
Steve Hackett - Voyage of the Acolyte
Museo Rosenbach - Zarathrustra
Sal đ
Shub Niggurath is killer!!
@@ericporter344 Have you heard the debut album from Locanda delle fate? One of the best italian prog albums ever!!!
@@bertkarlsson1421 yes! Great album
@@ericporter344 Are you into Gryphon?
debatable whether Six Wives by Wakeman is his first - there is the 1971 Piano Vibrations album that precedes it...? Credited to John Schroeder, but he was just the producer. It really is a Wakeman solo album in a way.
UK!!! Everything after was just a slightly better Asia album! They wanted a hit song then, but the first album is epic!
could also mention Chicago Transit Authority, you could ask the opposite question - which bands have never had a weak album throughout their career?
CTA, for my money, is one of the greatest debuts. Any genre.
Pallas with The Sentinel, their second album also pretty good
First name that comes to mind is Starcastle.
Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells
It's ICONIC !!
1- David Sancious : Forest of Feelings
2- The Muffins : Manna/Mirage
3- Animals as Leaders : Animals as Leaders
4- Happy the Man : Happy the Man
5- Mike Oldfield : Tubular Bells
Oooh. Sancious is a good pick
@@georgelamie7001 thanks!
Chicago transit authority definitely is it prog well yes
good chat .. i disagree with Starcastle on the list - Fountains Of Light is imho a perfect album and the pinnacle of their creativeness ...
I agree with Anthony about ELP.
Brain Salad Surgery is good but not as good as debut.
ASHRA temple about time they got a mention
We've talked about them quite a bit...especially on the Krautrock episode.
Tubular Bells
It's ICONIC !!
I'd have to go back and listen, but the first three Oceansize albums were great. I'm not sure if the first was the best, but definitely not the fourth one. They shit the bed with that one and then broke up.
A great topic with limited options.
My first choice is Eloy S/T ..... No, I'm just kidding
ELP - S/T
PFM 'S debut
Alan Parson's Project - Tales of mystery and imagination
Steve Hackett - Voyage of the Acolyte
Liquid Tension Experiment - S/T
HM : DARKWATER - Calling the earth to witness (prog metal)
FM - Black noise
Rick Wakeman - Six wives....
Brand X - Unorthodox behavior
Pete, where do I find everyone's list?
Anthony called it on Steven Wilson. Insurgentes is pretty lame, but that is the debut of the solo years.
Have you heard the debut album from geinoh Yamashirogumi? It's Awesome!!!
Not mentioed in the comments, or in the show: The Enid, In the Region of the Summer Stars. Some HMs that have prog moments: Magazine, Real Life; Air, Moon Safari; Magnum, Kingdom of Madness.
I would add Starcastle to that list.
Would Jethro Tull's "Aqualung" be considered their prog debut? If so, then that was never topped.
The Alan Parsons Project - I Robot
And why not Tales of mystery and imagination?
I would consider Benefit to be their prog debut.
Stand Up isn't your typical blues rock album.
I Robot wasn't their debut but I'd argue it's their best
No dont be silly. JT have always been prog. 1st was blue-sy but underground. No way was it Muddy Waters.
I actually think In the Court of the Crimson King deserves a mention. I myself would take Red over it and maybe even Larks' Tongues but In the Court is by far their most important and most influential and solidified progressive rock as a movement. If you know a boomer classic rock guy, chances are this will be the only Crimson album he owns, if any. Schizoid Man is the one song people may know and is by FAR their most covered song.
I think that COVER has something to do with it đ
Fripp as a guitarist made much more interesting things on subsequent albums. And were better lineups too.
@@user-cj4df7vs7w sure but none of them made the impact that In the Court did, as I explained
Here's some of my choices:
(Bands with 3 or more albums released)
Album Title / Band
*1)* Boston - Boston
*2)* Live at The Marquee - Nine Below Zero
*3)* The Cars - The Cars
*4)* Aldo Nova - Aldo Nova
*5)* Appetite for Destruction - Guns N' Roses
*6)* Fickle Heart's - Sniff 'n' the Tears
*7)* New Clear Days - The Vapors
*8)* Grey Ghost - Henry Paul Band
Oh Well I think as in Aldo Nova case the second album Subject stood up pretty well. After That Twitch and others he would work on to stay just relevant but not matching the first two. Have both on vinyl.
I think they are just going to talk about prog debut releases hence the name of the show. Aldo Nova while an excellent choice is not prog.
Hey Trucker. I pretty much agree with all your choices, but I think they're talking about Prog albums exclusively.
Ok. Ignoring my faux pas from yesterday, herewith my list:
1 Voyage Of The Acolyte - Steve Hackett
2 Disobey - Comedy Of Errors
2= Gathering The Waters - I Am The Manic Whale
3 Six Wives of Henry Vlll - Rick Wakeman
4 Argent - Argent
5 Tales Of Mystery And Imagination - Alan Parsons Project
The Comedy Of Errors may be a slight cheat but I consider Disobey their debut. Student Prince is phenomenal. I think so anyway.
Love comedy of Errors and caught the album launch other month at Ivory Black's
Spectral Mornings is better
Pure Reason Revolution "The Dark Third"
The Orb - Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld. Is it prog?
If not, what is it? Hillage even produces parts of it.
Nice choice ...agree
Klaatu 3:47 EST
Job Anderson , Olias
Job ?
Ambrosia was prog early on and i never found them interesting after that.
Idea for a new topic?
Best "One and Done" Prog bands
Nightwinds-Nightwinds came out after the band broke up.
Sound of Contact - Dimensionaut
I wonât crucify you Ken .
I agree that Black Sabbathâs first album is their best .
And yes , it is their best sounding album as well .
I bought it after I first heard it at a friendâs house , just days after itâs initial release .
They never bettered it , in my opinion, and , it also sports their best album cover .
Cheers !
Sabbath bloody Sabbath, Sabotage stronger I think and their most proggy.
Nope, best BS is Heaven & Hell (for Dio era), Sabbath, bloody Sabbath (Ozzy era)
Spocks beard went up a level with V. I love Snow also. Stunning music
I see Mahavishnu Orchestraâs first. A very good album; however I like Birds of Fire even better. John McLaughlin tears it up on that masterpiece!!!!
I think that 1984 is Rick Wakeman's best album, maybe not really prog. Oh, and I think Exposure by Robert Fripp was overseen.
Marillion - Script for a Jester's Tear
Ambrosia debut album
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Incubus S.C.I.E.N.C.E is an absolute masterpiece, then they just became soft and corporate IMHO! Their singer says it's not even in his top 3 which made me not want to listen to anything past that first one at all!âïž
Not a debut, and not prog, though a great album
Five prog debuts never topped, with a minimum 3 studio albums
King Crimson- ITCOTCK (even with the fannying around of Moonchild and the greatness of most of what follows)
Banco
Marillion- Script (yeah Pointer's drumming, but the songs still stand up, Fugazi is really weakly produced and at this time Pallas were just kicking fuck out of them as a band, and every other UK neo-prog outfit)
VDGG- Least We Can Do (this is the real band debut as the first is a Hamill solo in all but name, so this may be seen as a slight cheat)
Nice- thoughts of emerlist davjack
HM's
Fish
Pavlov's Dog
Oceansize
Amplifier
airbag
I wanna say Anekdoten with Vemod. Great band all in all.
The Muffins
Present
Comus
Ash Ra Tempel
Anglagard
When we're talking classic prog bands, the debut was often one of the weaker albums in their respective catalogs. Yes, Rush, Genesis, and Tull all come to mind.
I've always noticed that too. It's pretty strange that these classic bands didn't come out sounding that way. Of course there were some personnel changes that were responsible for the improvement.
@@christophercoles4401 It kinda makes more sense to me that a band's first album would not be their best. Ideally, a band should grow and develop and get better over time. Some do and some don't.
@@ScottBerry-yn8rw I guess there's an argument for both sides of the question, but I do agree with the idea that a band ideally should grow and develop. That being said , I have a friend who insists that Piper At The Gates Of Dawn is the best thing Pink Floyd ever did because they never made another great record with Syd Barrett. He says that the rest of their albums might as well be by another band entirely. While I don't particularly agree with that, I get where he's coming from.
@@christophercoles4401 He's a Syd Barrett fan rather than a Pink Floyd fan. It's all about Syd. I would guess your friend also enjoys Syd's solo material, maybe over Floyd albums? I think there's also a bit of contrarianism, I remember an acquaintance of mine saying once that he thought the Beatles peaked as a band, and specifically as a live band, in Hamburg in 1960 before they even became a successful famous world renowned act.
@@jimmycampbell78 Knowing my friend as I do, it's a little of both. He does enjoy Syd's albums (so do I, by the way), but he also digs Floyd's music without Syd. And part of it is being a contrarian. He's also a Kinks fan who says that The Kinks were better than The Beatles - and more "authentic", whatever that means. I myself believe that The Kinks mid to late '60s work is as good or better than much of The Beatles work of that same era, but I don't make the sweeping generalization that The Kinks were better than The Beatles altogether.
Debatable whether it falls in the prog vein, but Tori Amos never quite topped her debut Little Earthquakesâ. I suppose along the same line, a case could also be made, depending on your tastes, for the Kate Bush debut The Kick Inside.
As great as their catalogue is, "In the Court" has not been topped by the band, or any other band.
Some of my choices that haven't been named by the guys:
King Crimson - In the court of the Crimson King
The Mothers of Invention - Freak out!
Moving Gelatine Plates - Moving gelatine plates
Flying Colors - Flying colors
Roger Waters - The Pros and cons of hitchhiking
Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso - Banco del mutuo soccorso