The Extreme Geometry Hardtail
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- čas přidán 21. 05. 2015
- So, Jon from What Mountain Bike built a downhill-slack hardtail so long he could only reach the bars by bolting them right to the top of the steerer. It looks awesome, but how does it ride?
- Sport
Really interesting seeing this in 2019. This is effectively the norm of bike design now.
Funny to compare to the Chromag Doctahawk, an off the shelf bike
Now hes just got a nice DH hardtail, apart from the fact it's got a 130mm fork
yes i just got a ragley mmmbop with pretty much this geometry and it rides amazing and he was right about climbing
Jay I got a On One TikTik in XL, which got an even more extreme geometry, apart from longer chainstays. It got a 160mm fork and I think this is absolutly useless. 130mm might be perfect. If you hit an obstacle, which is to hard for a 130mm fork, you dont wont to hit it with your rear wheel in the same speed with a hard tail. ;) I m thinking of a btr ranger now. ;)
The new Kona honzo ESD is this but even slacker hta and way steeper sta.
"If its stupid but it works, its not stupid"
Very nice, please keep us updated on this, I'd love to see a long term (1-2 months) review along with what your co workers think.
It looks like Kona took your geometry and made it into the Honzo ESD
Love that you guys are doing more videos! We need more MTB channels on CZcams.
I bet it climbs like a beast. Just look at hill-climbing motorcycles. The front end has nearly the same geometry as a normal motorcycle but it has an extremely long swing arm to keep the front end down and to provide a huge gain in traction. That's basically what you're doing by going with a steep seat tube angle. But you still have the downhill performance because of the long top tube and slack fork angle. I'd be interested in seeing how a longer bike like this with a 67 degree head angle would perform.
Great video. It's nice to hear of someone taking a real interest in how a bike works and just going for it.
Most people seem too busy worrying about what image they and their bike project. It's cycling, stop preening and pedal.. Good stuff Jon, thank you.
put a downhill fork in it. that would be funny and even more extreme
And now in 2018, 76 degree seat tube angles are pretty much standard.
"I've no one to let down but myself - and my family"
This frame was way ahead of it's time.
I like your final summation of it all. Makes sense...
Really cool stuff, man!
It's a Choppah! ... well, it sounds cool in my head when I use Schwarzenegger's voice.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It proves that you can go to a frame builder and get a perfectly capable bike even if your aim is to f*ck it up. And that all the modern day jargon and bs is mostly just bs.
Buy a bike and ride it, who, apart from the top elite racers, gives a shit about a 5mm longer top tube, or 0.5° change in seat tube angle?
Hence my falling out of love with mtbing, and my new found love of motorcycle trail riding. Buy a bike, it works, lasts for years, enjoy
+JackSwatman Its the same thing that happened to road bike... excesive geometry and weight reduction plus the increase in prices.... al because the "PROS" do it... for the average joe who just enjoy riding, its a waist of time.
+r0xx0r why are you riding a carbon mountain bike to work?
+r0xx0r na mate you need a full steel single speed for speed. it's the new trend
+r0xx0r nice
+FrostRegicide the pedaling up hill will be amazing
The frame looks old school....I love it!
The head angle and seat angle of this bike are pretty much the same as Kona's Honzo ESD, which has gotten some pretty positive reviews.
it seems were going back in time here. all this stuff existed 10 years ago in the freeride scene
but not as slack as 63 degrees!
No it didn't! 26" wheels, slack STA, steeper HA, longer chain stays, shorter TT, higher BB all were 10 years ago on all bikes from XC to DH
Thats cool , I like the spare tube between the bars haha. Done this a few times too.
I put a 2006 marzocchi mx fork a low rise shorty stem and 780mm wide bars from a Norco dirt jumper from 06 as well on and old 98 trek 820 frame. Slackened the geometry and the thing is great up and downhill. Insane going down in fact.
Cool bike, I've got an Orange Crush with a similar spec, awesome downhill. This bike is even cooler!
i like jon he seems cool
Nice bike, it looks similar to mine! I'm driving a dartmoor hornet with a rs lyrik and continental trail king 2.4. I absolutely love it!
primi3 same here! hornet with 160 pike, doesn't make me miss my full sus on downhill and it's a rocket uphill!
Nostradamus here perfectly prophesized MTB geometry in 2023
Mine is 64deg Head Angle and 78deg Seat Tube Angle with 140mm Fork. My Hardtail rides like a dream.
The extreme things I did to my Specialized Pitch 650b list could go on for ages. 160mm SRSuntour Auron fork, full Zee groupset, XT Front 203mm rotors Rear 180mm, 2.4 DerKaiser Conti tires and yhh rides awesome. Ohh and a lot of Race face parts like; pedals, 670mm 15mm rise bar, 35mm stem 36T chainring. Ahh what a bike.
great insight, I want one!
where and who built it, I need one of these
I need that stem! My bike is slightly long for me even though I'm 6 foot. Bike was built for a giant and it's only a medium
thumps up for BTR
I kinda want that bike now. Looks like a lot of fun.
we ran heavily gusseted chro-mo hardtails with 7"+ forks (I ran a Hanebrink, lol) with Sun double wide rims and 3" Nokian Gazzaloddi's (24" rear to fit)..... short chainstays, raked to the max.... that was the style..... 15 years ago.....
Super cool and interesting!
Nice way to start your video XD Just getting into it. Now time wasting, I like that
O think you guys need to do a feature on Mojo's Nicolai they're selling, proper long and slack.
That stem on that hardtail is ahead of it's time
Great video! Serious question- what would happen to handling if you went even longer head tube and used a standard stem pointing backwards (towards you)? I guess I can try it on my commute home tonight....
i guess ive been living under a rock
Looks like a downhill BMX
Please God, don't let that ever be a "thing"
Shane Schofield
it already is, it's called slopestyle
They were racing BMX on downhill tracks back in the 70's when the sport was being pioneered. The limiting factor was the durability of the relatively flimsy bikes. So it's been a thing for quite some time now.
hard tails for life
looks awesome I want that bike
Pretty much predicted the future. The Marin El Roy now has a slacker head angle, a steeper seat angle but the top tube is a lot shorter AND it’s steel 🤯
Can you make a video about DH bikes, i know you already made one but y really like to see another options and prices of DH biked, tks ur awesome
I was expecting more, this isn't too far off a Specialized. There are tens of different hardtails that are readily available with more travel with about the same headtube angle.
I've yet to see a triple crown fork hardtail. Looks like I'll only get to see that once I build it myself. The Dartmoor Hornet can take a 180 mm fork so 20 extra mm isn't bad
I wish you could buy this bike. It looks amazing and fun to ride.
That is why I stick to HTs. The boundaries are still being pushed. I recently picked up a 2015 Specialized StumpJumper EVO that rocks a RockShox Pike 120mm and drop seatpost from factory. It rides amazing, like a crossover. It has the best of both worlds.
This comes pretty darn close to my dream bike.
Fast forward to 2020, you can buy a bike like this is most bike shops and every online retailer 😂
I've been riding this bike for 7 years now! czcams.com/users/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L It was a great bike the day I got it, put it together, and went on my first ride; more importantly it's an even better bike today. I've ridden trails, street, and skatepark all on this bike. I have replaced almost every part on the bike. Some stuff has broken: derailleurs, wheels, shifter. Everything else were upgrades. The only ramaing original parts are the frame, bottom bracket, and crank set. BB and cranks will be upgraded soon. The geometry isn't great but that is really the only draw back to how good a value this bike is. Even after all the money I've spent upgrading it's still a more affordable bike than I'd have bought from a proper bike shop, especially with full suspension. I've also learned a lot about bikes working on it over the years. It really is one of the best perchases I've ever made and hopefully it'll still be around for another 7 years.
i like it because its seams smaller but just as strong as a mtb and there's of benefits of having the ability to set the seat really low
in 1990 stem lengths were 130mm to 150 mm very common
top tube length 21"to 22"
now stems going shorter and top tubes going longer
i still have a Alpinestars Almega DX with very short chainstays 15.75"
Its funny that this is basically all the hardtails now
When u hear u been livong under a rock about this......not the first time this guy takes himself to seroius
my bike also has extreme geometry with a 160mm pike... (frame is s/15.5inch specialized pitch comp (frame is designed for 80mm fork))
Hahaha! Thank you for this!
really like this bike the theory and research into it must of been pretty in depth to get it right but my curiosity goes further what about a similar geometry but in big 29er wheels ? super slack super long low bb ...
I'd love that bike
Why not use a regular stem and mount the handle bars behind the headset? Couldn't you get a longer wheelbase/ more comfortable reach on this bike that way?
Makes sense to me. I wish more all-mountain bikes had a steeper seat angle and longer top tube, to make them easier to climb.
Looks a lot like the 2020/21 Ragley Blue Pig/ Mmmbop. Ragley actually froze their geometry slackening evolution for 2021, I believe, no changes from 2020 and just changed the paintjobs and some parts on the full bikes. They probably got to the point of anything more would be ridiculous. I wonder what will have came out by another 5 or 6 years to make my new 2021 Marley old-hat.
great experiment guys, what's the wheelbase length?
Can you share the geometry chart for this frame?
I used to have a Ragley Mmmbop with a 150mm fork and similar geometry, that was a fun bike! Hard work to ride and compromised, but in the right place it was a true laugh.
I would love this bike
What is the BB height or BB drop? its low but how low? nice bike
im looking into these dartmoor hardtails. These hardtails has 160mm fork and factory says its OK to put 180mm forks! this one looks good btw
Good one
I would love one.
You should build one with a longer top tube for doddy from Gmbn with 61 deg head angle with a 450mm chain stay and 29" wheels because wheelbase
Hello dear, I would like to know according to your knowledge what would happen or how could a Dirt Jump bike behave if I put a wheel or simply the enduro tires and I start pedaling on the hill or some rugged terrain?
Looks fun
Hi Jon!
What is bb drop and AC dimension of this bike?
How does that steep seat-tube angle affect your pedaling? I find the seat tube angle on even my very conservative Trek Superfly to be too steep and need a setback seatpost.
probably handles like a boat
And now in 2020 this is nice.
I love it
6 years later it doesn’t look so stupid anymore. I was honestly wondering, “what is he talking about? Can’t be the bike in the background” lol
What would be extreme would be, setting up a double head tube, one for the handlebars, and one for the actual forks, connect the handlebar to the forks with a small chain/2 gears. then you could make the top tube as long as you like. You would no longer have to worry about toe strike, which means the front wheel could be even larger
Weight, stiffness/strength, backlash, disorientation, increased unsprung weight (counting the bike as a whole as unsprung weight under the rider) before adding the weight of a potentially larger wheel and tire..
How times have changed!
I would like to see this bike with the new Pacenti stem/bar combo. No need for the crazy high Onoff 10mm.
That frame looks like something I made in shop class when I was 12
Hi Jon, so how low is the Bottom bracket and how short are the chain stays? Just wondering because you didn't mention the actual numbers. I am having a hardtail made and am also 5' 8" . Thanks..
bmx with shocks. all the new rage.
Is this bike ever going to be for sale? Because I really like the looks of it and I've been looking for a good mountain bike for quite a while now and this one seems as the perfect one for me!
Go on the btr bikes website.
The silhouette of this doesn’t look too far off my 2021 Cotic BFe
Very cool project. More info would be good though. What is the BB height? What is the chainstay length? (I know you mentioned both of these are minimal in the video), and what width bars were you running?
Pete Walsh Hi Pete, it's a 300mm BB, 415mm chainstay and I'm running 780mm bars. Glad you liked it!
Jon Woodhouse thanks!
Jon Woodhouse Can you make a geometry list of all the lengths?
In the video of you riding, are you wearing troy lee designs skyline jersey and shorts?
I recomend to see the mondaraker vantege it is an amazing bike persobaly i ride the vantege r 2014 and it is the best hardtail i ever go to eide on
I live in frome and I've never herd of them are they on Marston trading estate?
its funny how this is exactly like the new Kona honzo
I'm going to building up a bike with similar geo soon but with a 170/180 forks
manufacturers do make bikes that are only great for going down. they're the downhill bikes.
Accept they climb like ass.
Nice your bike. where that trail at?
Obviously, That man know what he's doing when designing the bike. Respect. But I would say if you really want a aggressive hard tail, in terms of being able to ride downhill fast (relatively), and in the mean while being able to climb uphill in a decent manner. Why not get a 4x bike and put a dropper post on it? Ain't almost everything he is trying to achieve already there?
Zongze Cao they (4x bikes) have short as hell top tubes, slack seat tubes and sharper head angles. this has like a 6 degree slacker head angle, 70-80mm longer top tube, and a 4 degree steeper seat tube angle. Makes a massive difference. As well as genreally having shorter travel forks.
I like it. I've been thinking about hacking two old ally X-Rated frames into one, just to increase the wheelbase. Ok, it's mostly because I want a cruiser and these bikes are really cheap on eBay at the mo. ;~)
that bike looks so fun
h hy g&gfh
The frame reminds me of a custom made BMX i had as a kid
I have a hardtail with triple clamps rides like a dream
where can i buy this bike i love it
That things fuckin sick
Stick a boxxer on it
Shimmed to 110mm nbd
wow bike design looks a real mtb