The Agent in the Arena, John Vervaeke & Jonathan Rowson
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- čas přidán 7. 04. 2022
- John Vervaeke is a cognitive scientist - a good friend of RW - and the creator of the cult hit - awakening from the meaning crisis series.
A couple of weeks ago he travelled to the UK for a series of talks - and we took the opportunity to film this excellent dialogue with the philosopher and chess grandmaster Jonathan Rowson, the co-founder of Perspectiva.
They cover a lot of ground, including John's passion for transformative speech - or dialogos, questions like the existence of God, and much more.
We had our own brilliant event with John - which is listed as a member film - and you can see by signing up for our Substack newsletter: rebelwisdom.substack.com/p/an...
John's CZcams channel: czcams.com/users/johnverv...
Jonathan's project, Perspectiva: systems-souls-society.com/
I'm very impressed by Rowson's interview skills in this and John is particularly succinct and clear here too. This is one of my favorite interviews of John.
Paul here for reaction/breakdown video 😀
As the interview began to wind down (and mind you, I'm grateful beyond words for this gift of a conversation or dialogos) I thought the exact thing several times; 'this is one of my favorite interviews of John,' and I watch & listen to a lot of John's lectures, conversations, dialogues and so on. I was rapturously captivated; enthralled even.
Selfishly, I wanted the interview to continue a little more... another three, four hours or eight - lol.
Something inside of me feels such a connection and affection for John and his passionate work. Thank you to everyone involved in sharing this and I too was very impressed by Rowson's interview skills. This conversation and others like it are a breath of fresh air. Thank you again for sharing. 🙏🙏🙏
wow, this is a moving, honest, personal conversation. Thank you all for doing this.
Say Paul, who is the other Paul John Veraeke mentioned in the interview with the last name Lightner??
That would be Paul Anleitner I think
@@KalebPeters99 Thanks Peters! I found his channel.
This is what the internet has been missing from John Vervaeke until now. Plus, imagine having someone as smart as Jonathan Rowson interview you. Amazing all around. Thank you, Rebel Wisdom!
Always appreciate Jonathan's superbly engaging interview style. He's helping JV render a version of himself that I've not seen before, and the personal encounter illuminates his work so well. Thanks RW.
Jonathan asked excellent questions and discerned key points to follow up with clarifying questions. John was his usual perspicacious self but was really in top form as he communicated these profound ideas.
Excellent work, gentlemen!
Such a skilful and wholehearted interview. I could understand John's concepts more clearly, how they connected, and a bigger vista opened up. Between this interview and Iain McGilchrist's interview "Understanding the Matter with Things" I feel... different. Surely, if the necessary shift in consciousness flowers, we have founding fathers like these to thank.
"This is how you awaken from the meaning crisis: you learn how to deeply fall in love with being again" Cheers John, you just saved me 50 hours 😉
You know it’s gonna be a good day when Jon Vervaeke pops up on the feed. Almost the first to comment! So excited for this 👏
Thank you to JV and to Jonathan Rowson for this wonderful interview. After having watched the 50 hour series on the Meaning Crisis, I appreciate being able to see the man ‘behind’.
Vervaeke has stirred my subconscious out of a cynical slumber
This was a wonderful conversation, a wonderful distillation of John's life, teaching, leading right up to the cutting edge of his own learning and discovery in dialogos. Thank you both! I look forward to hearing some of the 4L conversations with Pageau and Vanderklay!
It supposed to be Paul Anleitner and Vanderklay
That was a bit over my head, but I'm a few pages into McGilchrist latest book "The Matter With Things" so I am trying.
Thank you for this podcast. These conversations are the ultimate utility of the internet.
For those who love to hear what John has to say, thanks to the great questions of Johnathan, he gives a very useful résumé of his general perspective ! Thank you both, that was very instructive!
I've been seeing the Eros of John on fire in the last dialogoi. It's a view of Beauty. His voice and the voice of Socrates just merge together for me.
What a lovely conversation, it was a great help as sometime I get lost in the vocabulary John uses. Thank you for the clarification given here.
This is the conversation I wanted to see!!!
Man, what a conversation
Wow, this is an incredible interview. And great gratitude for the two participants in the dialogos. What I like to call diasophia, as it will become, or can.
The pain and suffering of the, usually through ignorance, abuse in the atheists and christians of our time, of God, is hard to bear. Because we are all innocent as a truth.
But with God bearable, because the need is revealed. And the purpose in function, enacted. When you are with the Father.
Way to go RW! this is am amazing and insightful conversation, beautiful way to get to know more about John and what moves him-
Incredible interview. I'm a long time fan of JV, this is the first time I've heard JR, I was very impressed
Absolutely wonderful dialogue- thank you!
Jonathan was really good here. He did well listening to JV, and really trying to flesh out his thoughts.
Thanks John and Jonathan!
Thank you for sharing this wonderful conversation between two such deep thinkers - listening to the dialogos dance between them was so inspiring. I had to listen to a few sections over and over to grasp the nuances they were bringing to the discussion. The overall explanations of the 6 E's, 4P's and four L's tools were also very helpful.
This is absolutely amazing! John's context deepens his teaching to a beautiful degree.
I love John; his discussion of the harmony and coidentification of emanation and emergence was beautiful. That said, he seemed to fall into that same trap in the next part when talking about God. He embraces the apophatic aspects of God but sees it at odds with the cataphatic. I think if he took the same reasoning about how the bottom-up cellular buildup of the tree is a reflection of the top-down constraint of the full tree itself he might find that “swinging between” the apophatic and cataphatic is no less reasonable than “swinging between” a tree’s structure constraining its final outcome and the cells emerging into a tree.
Absolutely superb interview of Jonathan Rowson to John Vervaeke.
Awesome, thanks for this dialogue!
Awesome, thank you so much for this!
Much respect for you both 👏 🙌 loving the new series, After Socrates. To anyone reading this, I highly recommend doing the course awakening from the meaning crisis by John Vervaeke. It was one of the best decisions I made last year. It enriched my mind, meaning in life, life itself. Ah I always love the tree and nature analogies .. totally my vibes. John thank you so much for everything. You are so humble and kind.
Truly amazing content and insight. Fantastic questions and interaction. Thank you guys for sharing...
Great conversation! Wonderful to get more details of John's intellectual and spiritual journey and a good bird's eye view of his main theses.
such a good interview omggg
ty to everyone involved
Just the best interview/ dialogos . Thank you
Beautiful dialogue! Thank you!
What a great conversation that brought so many ideas together, some I understood and many that are brand new to my brain. I am going to be exploring John Vervaeke’s series to learn more. I have a similar history with religion that he expresses the feelings of so well. Thank you for letting me be a witness to such a mind transforming experience!
In Thomas’ cell in San Domenico in Napoli, the following is noted:
during the celebration of a Mass Thomas was struck to his soul by something that deeply shocked him - perhaps “a mystical event” - and decided not to write anymore. To his faithful secretary Reginaldo da Piperno who insisted that the master complete at least his unfinished works, he said “Everything I have written seems to me straw compared to what I have seen and was revealed to me”.
Many greats leave unfinished works….and therein lies the tale.
One of RWs best.
Wow this was such an insightful interview! Thanks so much for sharing! 🙏
It's hard to describe how beautiful this is, if you've not encountered JV before it will probably make limited sense, but I think what comes across is just how much of an opening up of a non-polarised meeting of minds has occurred via JV, and boy did we need it, the cognitive science calvary have well and truly arrived to save the wisdom culture of the west (with plenty of input from the east)
This was so good.
I thought there were some interesting ideas explored here. But I have to admit to having something of a meaning crisis myself half the time Vervaeke was talking.
The conversations with Paul Anleitner, JP Marceau, Jonathan Pageau and Paul Vanderklay that I've listened to have been very encouraging, always a lot of listening going on. 🙏
No nostalgia, no utopia reminds me of Barfields book Unancestral Voice. In it, the main character communicates with a voice, who helps him see, through contemplation on the arguments and events of his life, that there are two adversaries of man, one always playing on the utopic and the other on the nostalgic. They seem to work against each other, but in reality are preparing the way for each other to possess humans. The angel of the age, Michael, in service of the logos (whom I suspect is the voice), is using them both in reality to make true transformation/evolution, the middle way, possible.
World without end, amen!
Thank you John and Jonathan. I trust you are well David O:)
I think of Teddy Roosevelt's Man in the Arena when I hear his Agent in the Arena.
Wow! I really enjoyed Rowson's 'The Moves that Matter'. I can't wait to listen!
Wonderful conversation and thank you for your clarification. As a non theist myself , I feel so liberated from the dogma and still very happy to flow in all that this world has on offer, the transcendence is always there, just are we available to it. That can be the dilemma. Loving your work John. Thank you.
Amazing. This was so enriching!
Incredible discussion!
It's slightly unnerving how you mute conflicting audio when they talk over each other, it sounds like there's something in the background... or at least that's what it sounds like is happening
Wonderful.
Been watching these talks about ‘meaning’ for going on 4 years now. Are we any closer to it yet?
Did you engage in any practice that have been talked about?
We are 32% closer
I'm halfway there... but it's still infinitely far away
"Been watching these talks about solving world hunger for going on 100 years now. Are we any closer to it yet?" - Local idiot.
I found the analogy between biological fitness and relevance realization interesting. That is, relevance realization being the cognitive equivalent of biological fittidness.
Have you heard of Jung to Live by? I would love seeing them on this channel one day
Awkwardly close to each other 😝
🙏
Moments of Magic is spoken out.
❤
I am wondering what arguments against physicalism are they referring to...
Great discussion
Bernado Kastrup's analytical idealism.
Does anyone notice the way JV talks about the ancients understanding of the Logos as if he was there? Is he stuck, like the game playing Chess Master, within the Labyrinth of our Adult Mind? Like all of us neither speaker can explain how their thoughts are created within an embodied mind any more than they can explain how they walk & talk. Where is the perceptual wisdom of the ancients & their understanding of the Solar Logos?
I can't seem to find Arthur Lewis's (?) book about how neoplatonism is the cultural grammar of western spirituality. Any help ?
Search for Arthur Versluis. Among his books, John tweeted in 2019 that a good place to start is The Mystical State: Politics, Gnosis, and Emergent Cultures.
I would love to here John speak about his thoughts on Nietzsche, it sounds like they both had similar influences in philosophy
Great interview and insights. However, there is this constant unquestioned emphasis on the meaning crises, that I don't feel in me. Isn't there a possibility, the meaning crises will be created by focusing on it?
Retrocausality, or backwards causation, is a concept of cause and effect in which an effect precedes its cause in time and so a later event affects an earlier one.[1][2] In quantum physics, the distinction between cause and effect is not made at the most fundamental level and so time-symmetric systems can be viewed as causal or retrocausal.[3][page needed] Philosophical considerations of time travel often address the same issues as retrocausality, as do treatments of the subject in fiction, but the two phenomena are distinct.[1]
This seating arrangement makes me so uncomfortable
the term 'cognitive' may, in itself, not be enchanting, but 'intelligibility' certainly is
49:00 Nothing comes from Nothing, so does everything.
59:35 Baha'i Consultation
😍🥰😘
transjective
participatory knowing , perspectival knowing......knowing in loving
transjective as an ontological basis for participatory knowing....
commonteism versus nontheism
John has been to a lot of parties where Jordan Peterson was around.
I love all these guys and their great conversations. Wish it didn't also feel like privileged piffle !
Transjective 28:40-31:47, large build-up
The comment about disembodied computers having no way to tell relevance made me think about ADHD having a component of dsiembodiment and a struggle to correctly assess relevance.
The Pageau and Rationality Rules conversation Vervaeke referred to: czcams.com/video/CsqVRauiAn4/video.html
59:00 Con-Template the Code.
brilliant stuff.. falling in love with God is the way to fall in love with being
I don’t get Vervaeke. Mainly, I don’t understand his agenda. He seems to be trying to convince us that: 1) Meaning is important, 2) We lack meaning, 3) His topics are the various sources of meaning from which we can choose our meaning for life. If so, my response would be that meaning is already innate to life. We are in a giant amazing impossible universe, and so the appropriate response is awe, wonder, appreciation, and participation. And that was already our natural response as children. Then we got distracted away from that through negative conditioning - we were told that we are faulty and need to fight for supposed happiness and police our supposed badness. That was a double bind because the fighting causes the harm that we are supposed to avoid. Therefore, the solution is to remove the distraction. Stop believing we are faulty, and remember our innate sense of meaning. We are not lacking meaning, but rather we are distracted away from innate meaning. His personal story of harsh Christian conditioning partly demonstrates what I’m saying. He was a vulnerable open little kid and the adults around him overwhelmed him with all that heavy distracting religious nonsense. So just delete the illusions and tune back into the wonder of existence.
Part of what he was saying is that we can't do that. We have reached a point where we are constrained by what came before.
If you have ever had or watched children, you would know that they're not innately good and don't play well with others by nature. It is the training that both constricts them and allows them to participate in adult society. Two year olds will stick knives into power sockets without education and an element of tyranny. They will also kick and pull hair and do all sorts of anti social things. Growing up is about figuring out what to keep from our childhood and what to jettison.
Vervaeke is trying to find a way of engaging in the religious processes that bring him meaning while jettisoning the bits that he doesn't like. He's attempting to grow up and in the process, help others to do the same.
@@StephensCrazyHour We can remove illusion and we can return to the wonder of existence. Yes, children do harmful things, but that's due to natural instincts and/or the deluded social context. Maybe kids wouldn't do those things if they were surrounded by a wise and loving society. But standard childhood development doesn't need to be jettisoned. We only need to remove the illusion that humans are lacking and flawed.
@@martingifford5415 A wise and loving society disciplines children so that when they grow up they create a wise and loving society in their generation. We discipline children because we want them to grow into everything they can be. They are lacking and flawed in childhood, or it wouldn't be childhood. Knowing and acknowledging their limitations and need of correction is a big part of loving them fully.
@@StephensCrazyHour I see two kinds of parents in the shopping mall food courts. One kind of parent follows the kids when they go exploring and then they make returning to the table seem like an adventure. Then the kids sit quietly and bask in the vibe of love provided by the parents. The second kind of parents - the disciplinary parents. They just lay a pile of rules and orders on their kids, and you can see the darkness a mile away. The difference is that the first parents come from love and wisdom while the second parents come from society's negative view of humankind.
@Martin Gifford
So saith also Maria Montessori. As a scientist observing children in a ‘school setting’, she came to the same conclusion: the child as divine. She prepared an environment to suit the child’s innate desire to explore, to learn and to discover. She prepared sensorial materials, so the child experienced the knowing through the senses.
4 L's Love, Light, Life and Logos
I'll throw in an ending point. a Koan i wrote ( i'm not a zen or budhist though) . Its called nothing..
Nothing
You are Alpha and Omega
The beginning and the end
there is no start or finish
there is nothing to contend.....
by JAWelsh c.
Yay Canada? Lol. no.
The conversation after 53 mins...wonderful...if only John can bring Western Wisdom to the point where the four Ls can stand for 'God' and the theists let go of their assertion that the divine formis the Ultimate.
In Sanatana Dharma the Path of Knowledge and the Path of Faith are equal approaches to the Divine...
Brought up as a Christian...in the sense of common theism...the easy route...as John V suggests...I felt short changed..
My culture had not really told me who God really was...as in Beingnrss or satchitananda. The problem of paths of faith is when they short circuit the real work of self realisation...to Be who You Are.
Rowson seemed too star struck for me to enjoy this.
You’re projecting.
@@roadsterella prove it
If you want to really make sense of things, turn this pretentious and fraudulent channel off and switch Russel Brand's on!