Demons & the Machine, John Vervaeke & Jonathan Pageau
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2022
- This is part 2 of an exclusive conversation between Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke recorded in Toronto recently.
In it John and Jonathan reflect on the recent ‘War on Reality’ piece with Paul Kingsnorth and Mary Harrington: • The War on Reality, Ma...
They ask whether we have replaced virtue with value. They also take a turn into the question of the occult, where Jonathan and John talk about whether concepts such as ‘demons’ can be explained as independently existing patterns of reality.
Very grateful to Dan Hammond for the audio mix.
Well guys, it’s been nearly 2 years of daily listening to Pageau and I can finally follow a conversation with him and Vervaeke in real time and understand it.
Beautiful conversation. I recognize so much what John said at the end about, not knowing exactly which way my life will unfold, the only thing I know for sure is that I have to take full responsibility for all what's coming. That's why I start small and simple by taking care of my direct environment. Helping my refugee neighbor with her garden, picking up plastics in my local park and streets. Listen to the stories of my people I live with in this community. I will do my best to be a light in dark times, because I feel that's my purpose. Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and take care ❤️
This is pure joy. I agree, I am hearing the first notes of the new world in listening to you. Thank you Jonathan, John, David and team for this.
Beautiful. Now we need to add the subjective experiencer, the feminine, the non-intellectual but rather emotionally self aware perhaps spiritually embodied. Stretch ourselves
This is absolutely one of the best conversations I've ever heard. Unbelievably relieved to see the bottleneck being addressed directly.
Pageau being on Rebel Wisdom at this moment is p much him sending a message to Peterson.. respect for that..
I'm curious if John and Jonathan are familiar with the work of Walter Wink. He was a primarily a Biblical theologian who took guidance from multi-disciplinary resources - Jung, Whitehead, evolutionary science, quantum physicists and more. His most famous work was a trilogy of books about the language of power in the Bible: Naming the Powers, Unmaking the Powers and Engaging the Powers. His thesis was the language in the Bible - angels, demons, Satan, angels of nature, principalities, elements of the universe, etc. - pointed to something quite real, but a different language would be required given how science has shaped our understanding of the world, i.e., God could no longer be regarding as "up there". The chapter he wrote about demons made the hair on my neck stick up, because he took seriously the experience of people assaulted by demons and really did think the language pointed to something quite real, autonomous and malevolent. Regarding worldviews, he championed what he called an integral worldview, whereby ALL reality has inner and outer aspects.
Singularity as the Rapture of the Nerds. That is *beautiful*.
Maybe chimps look at us and whisper amongst themselves of the dangers of transchimpanzeeism.
"How do 'we' move forward and build a civilization?" That's a presumptuous question. No one has ever built a civilization, planned a civilization, designed a civilization. We do what our ancestors do, we play our miniscule parts based on how each one of us perceives the best way to survive and thrive.
Jonathan Pageau has real understanding, intuition, genius about him. He can talk to Psychologist, Neuroscientist, and other materialist about the metaphysical and not be laughed out of the room.
Such a beautiful conversation. In these times of grief I feel hope listening to such genuine and vulnerable conversation. I’m so very thankful that you three are in this world, now. Thank you for all you have done and will do,
Luke 3 has an important question, verse 10 “What should we do?”. Maybe at a time where maximum violence is haunting us, the answer is maximum generosity. Great convo, thanks gents 🙏.
Thanks again, David, for your honest work, and amazing conversations like these that illuminate some of the darkness in these times. I wish you all the luck and power in your pursuit to integrate some of this gold into the mainstream.
Rebel wisdom is really getting sweet towards the end, what an absolutely fantastic conversation.
There is no way to claim with certainty the metaphysical existence or non-existence of demons. I find, however, that when I inhabit the worldview that they do exist, my language and perceptions feel sharper, my general sense of meaning is enhanced, and my motivation to act courageously in alignment with my values is massively improved, all with the end result of a better quality of life for myself and the people around me.. Then when I inhabit the worldview where they don't exist, I experience the exact opposite effects.
"Now we see in a mirror darkly; but then face to face." (Saint Paul)
I love John V's excitement, especially when he responds to Jonathan
Desire is a void. It cannot be satiated by externalities. Desire seeks the ACT of desiring.
Love listening to these guys. Love to understand what they're saying one day