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Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History - Part 1 of 2
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Atheist Talk cable program by Minnesota Atheists.
"Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History" recorded 10/23/2007
Part 1 of 2
Hector Avalos is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies. Join us for a fascinating presentation detailing how the more we discover about the ancient world, the less reliable we find the Bible.
From the dust jacket of The End of Biblical Studies: Hector Avalos calls for an end to biblical studies as we know them. He outlines two main arguments for this surprising conclusion.
First, academic biblical scholarship has clearly succeeded in showing that the ancient civilization that produced the Bible held beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity that are fundamentally opposed to the views of modern society. The Bible is thus largely irrelevant to the needs and concerns of contemporary human beings.
Second, Avalos criticizes his colleagues for applying a variety of flawed and specious techniques aimed at maintaining the illusion that the Bible is still relevant in today's world. In effect, he accuses his profession of being more concerned about its self-preservation than about giving an honest account of its own findings to the general public and faith communities.
Minnesota Atheists practices positive, inclusive, active, friendly neighborhood atheism in order to:
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- Educate the public about atheism
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I am proud of my fellowman who have worked hard to discover the truth of our past; we certainly don't need religion to bring us great things.
Mucho gracias Hector. Most are catholic from Mexico. Your the first atheist biblical scholar I've seen under your unique circumstance and it's great
I love when preachers see the light and become atheists. The honesty is so refreshing.Bible study made me an atheist as well.
put me down. I've I studied the bible, I became an atheist. science helped but didn't sway me until I read the history of the bible
If a person skeeps on the Bible - becomes good believer. If a person knows the Bible very well - becomes real atheist.
How do you explain atheists becoming Christian? (Not that I think nominal Christianity is any good, it's all based on lies and has nothing to do with Bible truth)
God made me an atheist and I respect that.
Copy of fruit ninja
The quran is bullshit too
RIP, Hector Avalos. died 14 April, 2021.
He has a condition that has affected his lungs. Doctors gave him three months to live back in the 1980's. He credits modern medical science for saving his life.
Word just came today that he has died. 4/15/21
@@dougniergarth236 did they claim covid for him
@@phillipstroll7385 Wouldn't doubt it
His voice is very relaxing and ASMR-like. It's too bad he had that condition
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts
Dr Avalos's book "The End Of Biblical Studies" is excellent and I highly recommend it especially to christians (if they're daring enough).
I totally agree. Real Bible study is about when/where/why different bits were written and who wrote them and to whom. Christian Bible study is a joke. It's mostly about how some bit of scripture shows them to be right or about how some biblical character handled some moral dilemma in a god-pleasing way. Go Hector!
Well, once again, I am depressed at videos like these.... Because I am continually astonished how deep the lie I was once fed and believed really runs.
Ryan Jones
I don't know how people miss it. Maybe they're too caught up in all the love and peace in the new testament to notice the underlying message: God's still the same asshole he was in the old testament - he's just using honey as bait instead of vinegar.
Ryan Jones
We can out-grow that past. If God is unchanging, as the Bible claims, then he can not.
Ryan Jones I was indeed raised in a Christian environment. Went to a nice Christian school. Considered myself to be Christian. Thought that we were the ones who had fallen short, and God was the perfect one. Then I discovered reality, and that God, as the Bible describes him is an absolute asshole.
I would be willing to concede that God, exists, if you could provide evidence that is empirical and quantifiable. None of this presuppositional or "I had a personal experience" crap. Eye-witness testimony is the LOWEST form of evidence. Even if the claimant is not lying, I can not be sure of that they CLAIM to have seen/experienced. The brain believes what it wants.That's why we have science - to keep us from fooling ourselves. The logical fallacies, word games, or circular reasoning used by religious apologists (and I've seen a number of them) do nothing for me.
Provide hard physical, measurable, empirical, quantifiable, SCIENTIFIC evidence of God himself. Under no other condition am I amble to conclude that God exists. Otherwise, you are selling an invisible product.
EVEN THEN, I will never again call that celestial dictator Lord and Master.
Ryan Jones Many claims, still no evidence.
Ryan Jones Some is and some isn't. Why is the majority of it and the Earth uninhabitable?? Why do our respiratory and digestive system share the same plumbing? Why are our genitals right next to our assholes?? Why does the prostate wrap around the urethra making it prone to restriction? What about bone cancer in children?? I'll tell you why. POOR evolutionary design. Confirmation bias much? You christards are the liars and prideful and hypocritical.
"makes some pop corn before sitting down to read the comment section"
Fuzzycat Buttered or gourmet?
Agimaso Schandir
buttered of course.
+Fuzzycat It's like watching Airplane or Caveman for the first time. So ridiculous, you can't help but laugh.
I'll have mine with extra butter and don't forget the salt.
Fuzzycat : brings some popcorn and sprinkles a bit of salt and butter. What's up breh :)
At 9, Holy Trinity made a terrible mistake, they forced me to buy a bible at an exorbitant price. I was a crazed reader of everything I could get my hands on, so I said. "I'm going to read this!"
By the time I got to Cain & Abel I just screamed "This is bat shit crazy! And I'm going to read the rest to torture the nuns." And I did. LOL
LOL
yes, Batshit crazy
Its a given that the Bible is a flawed document historically, but the archaeology absolutely refutes the Biblical account. No evidence of Israelites in Sinai whatsoever post Exodus..
You are right about the exodus being a shady story but apparently in ancient times Sinai was also inhabited by Hebrew tribes so maybe thats it
hebrew? no. Phoenician workers? yes. Phoenicians are the hidden hand, and manufacturers of religions. Look at the cities where the religions spring up, the trade routes... Cui bono
@@elysium1384
There is evidence at the real time of the exodus and during the Eqyptian gathering. They are off by more than 200 years... It would be like not finding proof of the Revolutionary war during the 1920s
I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would waste a university education studying the bible.
"Bible studies made an atheist out of me". I share the exact same personal journey.
Great post. It's pretty evident that ancient biblical scribblers couldn't conceive of a day when they could be fact checked using scientific methodology. And neither did the anonymous writers of the new testament gospels.
I was also raised in a Pentecostal church, Sunday mornings were bat shit crazy
Most churches, in my opinion, are merely wrong, Pentecostal churches are evil.
The Prime Minister of Australia is Pentecostal.
Mr Marvellous see first comment in thread
I'm sure it was no more insane than my Catholic household. The difference between getting pissed on Vodka, vs Scotch.
I attended a Pentecostal Church as a child. It was crazy.
Why is it that God communicated regularily in the west throughout ancient times ending with Muhummad, yet we haven´t heard from him since?
Retired, has taken up golf... Big fan of Tiger Woods.
Science frightened the boogeyman away.
You seem to have disregarded the charlatan Joseph Smith.
@@jaredprince4772 ... you're right, most of us have... though I've heard of a shop here in town that still sells "magical" underwear, mostly for women, and from what I've been told the underwear they sell there does work magic.
because you haven't been listening.
What? 2 million people wander Sinai for 40 years yet no archeological campfires, latrines or human remains. And during the whole trek they never broke a pottery jug!
I'm happy to say I have never believed in the bible. I tried but it was so rediculous that I couldn't make myself believe it even in my darkest times.
To study the Bible objectively: worst thing I ever did for my Christianity.
That is the only cure to belief in the fiction known as a holy book. Read it.
Studying proves the Bible can be trusted. Nothing to be ashamed of. Any weak minded person can be fooled by atheists that practice deceitfulness.
@@ericclaeyborn8359 Wrong. Studying the Bible proves it cannot be trusted. Any strong minded person, whatever you wish to believe, will see that atheists, generally, know more about your own religion than you do. You must open your eyes, look outside of your Holy book, see it for the contemporary piece it is, and be done with hocus pocus, mambo johambo, and get down to the real world.
David Allen then you didn’t really study then
@@ericclaeyborn8359
Pleeeeease say this was hilarious sarcasm! Pleeeease! 😂😂😂
As a Christian, I appreciate this lecture very much! Christians need to restore the traditional (allegorical) approach to the Bible and reject the modern fundamentalist (literalist) approach. Thanks, Hector!
Or completely adopt the truth instead of being scared of death.
So, if a being is supossedly all-everything, yet that being is clearly doing immoral acts, why would you worship such a being? To get into heaven and avoid the hell he created for those who don't grovel at his feet?
I don't like violence. I don't like injustice. THAT is why I don't like Christianity. If you can worship a being that drowned helpless babies in order to start the world over, and a being who burned babies alive and one who commanded nursing babies to be killed, i pity you.
What is really hilarious is watching christians' mental gymnastics trying to square this kind of behaviour with their oh-so-loving god.
i don't understand why everyone doesn't find Christanity as terrifying as i do
or as insipid and dopey as I do.
It's because like this speaker said- You only hear the niceties of the bible in church. The majority of the average church goers never bother to research history like we do. They hear what their pastors tell them and go home happy.
*You only hear the niceties of the bible in church. *
That may be true, but it is because we pastors think that most of the research you speak of is unintelligible to the average person, incomplete and not decisive, and in some cases merely skepticism dressed up in advanced degrees.
But thanks to the Internet, the facts are readily available to any who wants to do the research. And because the facts do need to be interpreted by people with an adequate background in the subject, those interpretations are also available on the Internet, at least in a popular format.
So Tod, do you have the academic qualifications to analyze what Avalos claims? Have you read deeper than what is published on the Internet? Have you read the various interpretations of the points Avalos makes?
That would be researching history. Of course, anyone is free to come to their own conclusions. Probably many who get their information primarily from youtube videos have already come to a personal conclusion before they listen to Avalos. It sounds like that was the case with the audience he spoke to.
But that is not researching history. And what Avalos is doing is not informing his audience so much as it is preaching to the choir.
Don't get me wrong. I do not have the academic credentials to be consider an authority either. But I have some training and experience in critical thinking, and I can spot a salesman at work.
Don Camp I have no credentials yet, but I'm going into religious studies at a late age in life. My goal is to be a biblical scholar. Any advice?
I also have a question for you as a pastor. If the mainstream Christian doesn't think they need to be under the old Law, why does the Christian bible have the Old Testament?
When you look at ancient Christian sects, the Marcionites didn't have an OT. They had something like a copy of Luke and the letters from Paul. They followed what Paul had to say.
The Ebionites on the other hand, followed the Law and had the OT. They were basically messianic Jews who I think revered Jesus' brother James.
According to the historian Hegesippus, James was a practicing Jew.
It was very hard to get the average Jew in the 1st century to believe Jesus was the Messiah because he didn't do what the Jews thought the messiah would do. Become a powerful king and set up God's kingdom, rule over Israel and drive the ruling power out.
Instead, he was humiliated and killed by the Romans.People like to blame the Jews for his death, but Pontius Pilate was the most brutal governor Rome ever had. He went out of his way to kill Jews. To think he'd leave Jesus' fate up to the Jews was out of the question.
Here's my theory. I think James and Paul had a rivalry. I think James believed others could partake in the religion but should convert to Judaism.
I think Paul was much more concerned with salvation than following the Law. He converted an enormous number of gentiles to the faith.
Had Paul not won the argument in the long run,we wouldn't have Christianity as is today. What do you think?
Just to let you know, I used to be an evangelical Christian but am now an agnostic.
I have a big interest in the historical Jesus.
Let me save you time- there is no way to confirm a historical Jesus. Period. There, let me save you the money and time!
To comment on the below, since we're talking about facts, it's a fact that the gospel accounts are written anonymously, in the third person, by non-eyewitnesses, by people who were biased with a religious agenda, and were then hand-copied over and over for hundreds of years by unknown people who added content to suit their theological biases. At least two of the gospel accounts contain large amounts of plagiarized material. Some books of the New Testament are known forgeries, such as many of Paul's letters, 2 Peter, etc.
This is the reason that "Archaeology Killed Biblical History" because it shows these writings to be unreliable, full of errors and contradictions, and containing false stories. They are myths, no different from the myths of other cultures. What's amazing is that many people still take them seriously in the 21st Century.
Well, the Old Testament says to kill gay men, except that lesbians were okay, apparently. Sounds more like something written by Bronze Age men than a divine being. ;)
yes anonymously that is one thing you said that was accurate rest his disputed and the opinion of others who have similar views to you
What exactly do you claim is disputed? It's a fact that the gospels are written in the third-person. It's a fact that they were copied by hand for hundreds of years by unknown persons who were biased with a religious agenda. It's a fact that Matthew and Luke contain word for word content that appears in Mark. It's a fact that a majority of biblical scholars say that some of the New Testament books are forgeries. Pick the point you'd like to dispute, and I'll be glad to present evidence.
Th1nk3r gospel of john claims to be eye witnesses Christians have only ever believed that the gospel of Mathew and John are eye witnesses rest are not by eye witnesses but followers of the disciples and yes they were copied by hand you had to at that time but the differences were small and Mathew may have used mark as a source because mark knew things that Mathew didn't as it was said to have mark a follower of peter but even that is disputed and yes scholars do say some of the books are forgeries in that they are not all by the people they claim but it is disputed who they were
Baji Scipio Dārayav Aurelius Julian Venizelos Nalwa I don't even need to debate this, as you've said, "scholars do say some of the books are forgeries in that they are not all by the people they claim but it is disputed who they were." If you have evidence that actual Apostles of Jesus wrote these books, feel free to provide that. You also claim that Matthew is an eyewitness account. Feel free to provide evidence, because the book itself does not claim to be an eyewitness account, it is not written from the standpoint of an eyewitness, and we have no reason to accept it as an eyewitness account since it plagiarizes content word-for-word from the anonymously written Gospel of Mark.
You are the victim of a hoax, and rational people have no more reason to accept your claims than you do that the Quran is the real holy book because Muhammad says that it was given to him directly by the angel Gabriel in a cave.
What this lecturer says about how people believed the sky was a giant, solid dome is absolutely true. An old word for sky is "firmament" -- because when people looked up at the sky they believed they were looking at something "firm" and sturdy.
Yes, the best analogy would be that the Earth is a giant 'snowglobe'!
If, as most christians claim, that faith is all that's needed, why do they go to such lengths to 'prove' their claim? I've never known a christian, who after intense discussion about the bible, didn't finally concede that it's all about faith, not proof or even evidence.
There are those in situations where the thought of an omnipotent all good father gives them hope and strength and a sense of agency. But in the real world of objective reality we need solutions over solace.
Science has eliminated the need for a god. Although it doesn't yet have all of the answers, it is getting closer and closer everyday. And every time science has searched for something, it has found a natural explanation for it. So what do we need a god for?
"So what do we need a god for?"
- So that we can have preachers..
That's about it! :P
Rayvvvone There's a lot of money in selling god.
but . . . but . . . Trevor Noah says #weallneedagod!
So atheist can convince themselves of there (their) superior intelligence.
One of the reasons Christianity spread so widely is that they had bigger and sharper swords.
Not for the first couple of centuries. The reasons for its initial growth are quite different than its post-Constantine growth. What those original reasons are, however, are not completely understood. People like Ehrman propose it was a matter of a lucky mix of missionary zeal and exclusivity.
land1sea1lions Christianity had growth rates comparable to Mormonism in the beginning, and the Mormons sure were being persecuted as well, so whatever it was that caused Christianity to grow, there's no reason to think it requires much in the way of an explanation beyond what all marginally successful cults do.
In general, it's fairly easy to grow fast(in a relative sense) when you're small. As one grows bigger, one's cult's growth will be almost solely determined by birth rate.
land1sea1lions Christianity had growth rates comparable to Mormonism in the beginning, and the Mormons sure were being persecuted as well, so whatever it was that caused Christianity to grow, there's no reason to think it requires much in the way of an explanation beyond what all marginally successful cults do.
In general, it's fairly easy to grow fast(in a relative sense) when you're small. As one grows bigger, one's cult's growth will be almost solely determined by birth rate.
Gnomefro
All good points, except that there were a number of new cults that were exploding out of that part of the world around that time so it can be asked why Christianity ultimately took off and the others did not. Although it could very well just be luck of the draw (and a bit of opportunistic syncretism).
+land1sea1lions Also Constantine. If he had picked a different cult we might be living in a very different world.
Where did the idea that the Bible is the infallible work of God come about? There is no verse in the Bible that it is, is there? Something like, "Eventually a bunch of books will be collected together and you all will have to say you believe it is the infallible work of Me."
Christians use that concept in order to control other people's lives, which is the whole reason for the religion in the first place.
Thet really worship the bible.
@@jenniferbrewer5370 NO..A CHRISTIAN IS NOT ONE THAT FOLLOW THE BIBLE. WE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN KNOW THAT MAN HAS TAMPERED WITH THE BOOK. WHEN YOU'RE BORN AGAIN, GOD GIFTS YOU WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT. WE CAN SEE THE ALLEGORIES, THE TRUTH, TO UNDERSTAND THROUGH THE PARABLES..IT'S A HUMBLING EXPERIENCE..WHAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN ISN'T OF DIVINE UNDERSTANDING..THE BOOK DON'T SAVE YOU, CHRISTS LOVE FOR THE LOST AND EVEN THE KNOW IT ALLS THAT HUMBLE THEMSELVES AND TRY TO PRAY UNTIL HE GIVES YOU THE HOLY SPIRIT..WISE, THEY BECOME FOOLS..TAKE IT FROM A FORMER ATHEIST..IT BREAKS MY HEART, THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CORRUPTED SO BAD BY MEN, AND A CHURCH SYSTEM THAT IS TERRIBLE..ALL BUT ONES THAT ARENT 503C CHURCHES THAT UNDERSTAND THE SUPERNATURAL. AND SEEK THE WILL OF GOD.
@@julietrae8665 schizophrenic
The Greek myths mention Mount Olympus, which is a real place, but does that mean the stories about the Greek gods are true? No, it doesn't! Homer's Iliad mentions the city of Troy, but does that mean the story about Achilles is true? No! The Assassins Creed games take place in Ptolemaic Egypt, the Third Crusade, the Italian Renaissance, and the American Revolution and mention real people such as Queen Cleopatra, King Richard III, King Saladin, Leonardo di Vinci, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Sam Addams and Paul Revere. But does that mean that the stories about Bayek, Altair, Ezio Auditorie, and Conner Kenway are true? Of course not! The anime "Rurouni Kenshin" takes place in Japan in the year 1877 and mentions real people such as Emperor Meiji, Saito Hajime and the Shensingumi, but does that mean the stories about Kenshin Himura are true? No!
Just because a work of fiction contains the names of real places and people *DOES NOT* mean that the story is 100% historically factual. Why can't Christians understand this?
@ Des Gardius... well I read Homer's Iliad, the Trojan War and the story about Achillies... you need to understand that these stories all had some morale meaning wrapped in them... in Achillies case it was to "wear sensible shoes"... something it seems we haven't learned to this very day
Quote _"Just because a work of fiction contains the names of real places and people DOES NOT mean that the story is 100% historically factual. Why can't Christians understand this?"_
Christians do understand this, why do you assume they don't?
Do you think all Christians are stupid? ignorant? naive?
I think I am very well read, I have read a great deal of fiction that contains factual things. However, when it comes to the Bible, I recognise when talking historically, it is true, but when it is being allegorical, poetic, hyperbolic or parabolic then it is not being literal.
Do you? (recognise these things)
There is also idiomatic language, contextual language and phraseology depending upon time frame or geographical location.
A lot of criticism of the Bible stems from people who really have a shallow understanding - an example of this, where the speaker is really being disingenuous . A paraphrase of what he said:
_"did you know, in Genesis the sky was made of metal? if you know the Hebrew it is "raqa" metal"_
Wow, how stupid Christians must be to not know the Bible says the sky is metal!.................
Except he is lying. The word raqa means to beat out, to stretch or expand - only by implication does it mean "beating out a sheet of metal" it in no way says the expanse (firmament) is made out of metal. The word in Genesis is actually raqia - From Strong's we see: _"From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: - firmament."_
Raqia being derived from raqa - _"râqa‛
raw-kah' A primitive root; *to pound the earth* (as a sign of passion); *by analogy to expand* (by hammering); by implication *to overlay* (with thin sheets of metal): - beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
The speaker has gone from raqia meaning "spread out - expanse" to the root word raqa, which means to pound, hammer, and has taken "by implication to overlay (with thin sheets of metal): - beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch."
If the speaker really believes that the word raqia means sheets of metal, then he is ignorant of the Hebrew, or is only searching for something to ridicule.
*Beware of these fake Hebrew and Greek "experts" who grasp any opporunity to misrepresent what the Bible says.*
@@nicerperson1 "However, when it comes to the Bible, I recognise when talking historically, it is true, " You haven't read the bible, or you don't know history.
The biggest mistake made by zealous pastors these days is encouraging their flock to really read the bible. I'm very glad I took notice though! "and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 😂😂 The truth is that it's all very carefully selected bullshit with a strong dose of 'but the context!' whenever the smell gets too strong.
If a god wrote, or inspired, the book of "his' teachings, then why did he do such a poor job of it (creating confusion, mixing in fables and myths, false archaeology, poor historical accuracy, terrible science, etc.). There is a reason we have so many theologies and denominations within Christianity and it has to do with a book that can be interpreted and misused so many different ways. I would hope that an all knowing and all powerful god could at least write a coherent paragraph.
Try again man....
Quite. Personal revelation given in a way that cannot be misunderstood, to every human being, would be more the style of an omnipotent god. A rubbish book full of magical nonsense and abhorrent morality is more the style of a bunch of religious maniacs with an agenda to push.
very scholarly and erudite. The problem is that the christians I know are never going to sit still for facts, evidence or proof when they have their myth, legend and happy sky god
Michael Dennis he made a good case for his Big Bang daddy. Now we know it all started from an explosion that no human actually witnessed
Wonder how many death threats Mr. Avalos has gotten from so-called "good Christians."
Yes Hector is a rare mind. Most people don't realise that bunnies are mammals during the Easter Egg hunt. Some people actually read the scripture. Skeptical interrogation is the natural enemy of scripture.
Reading the Bible is a sure fire route to Atheism.
paraphrased from Hitchens.
Historians endeavor to determine What most likely happened in the past. Miracles, by definition, are among the least likely things to have happened in the past. Good luck arguing that the most likely thing to have happened is the least likely thing to have happened.
Mmmm, filmed in delicious PotatoVision.
I love atheist Bible scholars. They no longer have an emotional connection to the religion. They are free to examine the text of the Bible in a truly objective way. Religious people aren't dumb people, they're injured with the attachment system.
Many earlier versions of the writings on Jesus did not survive the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD by Titus of Rome. In 367AD, St. Athanasius came up with a list of 73 books for the Bible that he believed to be divinely inspired.
This list was finally approved by Pope Damasus I in 382AD, and was formally approved by the Church Council of Rome in that same year. Later Councils at Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397AD) ratified this list of 73 books. At the end of the 4thC Christianity became the Roman state religion along with the ratification of 27 books of the New Testament. However during the Reformation period Martin Luther removed seven books from the Old Testament making 66 in the King James bible.
While believers may affirm that the selection of the 27 books that eventually made it to the New Testament canon was divinely inspired, this belief generally overlooks the 300 years of argument and debate regarding which books to include. When it was over only four of the thirteen apostles books were included and there was a still no unanimity. Most scholars agree that the gospels where written in Greek in the third person about Jesus and his companions, by anonymous well educated Christians from 50-120C.E.
Is it morally right to drown a week-old baby for something his/her parent did?
Sometimes children have to die? According to the buybull!! lmfao!!
All we can do is have these conversations and hope some people will respond to either logic, humor, or the realization that they are worshiping a myth. Another truth is these myths are all dying so the single largest fastest growing group are atheists. That should cheer you up :)
Thanks so much for the upload! This is valuable footage.
It amazes me how few Christians actually know anything about the book they worship so intensely. Maybe that's why they get so butthurt when someone who's actually read the damn thing proves them wrong.
but no where has avalos, you or anyone else ever proven the Bible wrong ... OOPS ... oh, did that hurt your feelings
With all respect, your comments are nothing more than your emotional opinions without any logical arguments. Your comments are nothing more than an emotional tactic because you are unable to counter the arguments with any logical arguments or actual evidence and this goes for avalos and others ...
Hector Avalos is an embittered apostate ‘Christian’ who now describes himself as ‘a secular humanist’, and believes that ‘the Bible has no intrinsic value or merit’ but he can provide no evidence whatsoever to substantiate his emotional gibberish ...
In the Infallible Word of God we read in 2 Corinthians 3:15-16 "But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away." These verses makes it very clear why you won't come to Christ. What is the 'it' ? Well since the antecedent is the word heart, the verses are saying that when the heart shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. My friend, if you are not a believer today, don't say it is because you have some mental reservations. The fact is that you have some sinful reservations. When the heart will turn to the Lord, then He will lift the veil. Anytime you are ready, God is ready, and He will save you. It is not God's will that any should perish. Today it is "whosoever will may come" and "... God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). All God asks you to do is believe. He doesn't even ask you to clean up before you come to Him - He will do the cleaning. (see -> hopefaithprayer.com/books/Faith_+_0_=_Salvation.pdf)
There is history in the bible, but it's found mostly between the lines. They used real people/place names as settings for their propaganda, but sometimes just made shit up entirely.
The only *real* bits of history in the bible are the Babylonian Exile, which is also recorded (slightly differently :0) by the Babylonians. The other is the Egyptian Pharoahs - though the list is incomplete, in the wrong order and the wrong dates. The rest is just made up.
"However, no one or no one thing is going to take away my faith."
Herein lies the difference. See--as an atheist, if anyone could actually present hard evidence of god's existence, and this evidence held up under scrutiny and could be tested in controlled conditions, I WOULD believe it! And I'm convinced most other atheists would as well. But no hard evidence is ever forthcoming--even after thousands of years of the best theistic minds attempting it. That's why I don't believe.
@The Skeptic Philosopher But He did, in Jesus, and you don't believe Him. If He met your demands now, you'd just move the goal posts again, demand something else you're certain He won't do.
Next, we can observe Hazor. According to stratum and historical dating methods, one burn layer is between 1400-1320 B.C.
Another burn layer is between 1320-1290 B.C.
And a third burn layer is around 1230 B.C.
The first burn layer corresponds to the timeline of Joshua's conquest. The second burn layer corresponds to the timeline of Seti I. The third burn layer corresponds to Deborah and Barak of Judges 4.
What's more is, the source you cited is arguing merely based on the point that Egyptians would, from time to time, refresh their calendars from one-- depending on the arbitration of any given Pharaoh.
This is why we have to keep updating our anchor point based on subsequent astronomical observations.
It is empirically clear-- when we take carbon samples AWAY from the fault lines, the traditional Egyptian dating for the 18th dynasty gets consistently vindicated.
Ewaen, and where is your PHD from? You cannot find the truth about the Bible from reading the Bible. You have to study the origins and history OF the Bible. He says, in Genesis it uses the word Raqia, which means "metal ball or dome". Look up the word, Watch the You Tube videos The Bible Unearthed. learn something.
My good friend, I went to a university and studied same thing he studied. My credentials don't mean crap because it doesn't really tell your real level of intelligence.
Credentials don't mean a thing. Haven't you seen teenagers doing things with Computers, they build programs that PHd holders in computers programming don't even have a clue.
Wake up and stop following people blindly because you think they are brilliant with their PHds, find time and do your own damn research, and don't get deceived, it's not about you becoming a Christian believer or not,
it's about been told the truth as it were. You can remain Atheist but you don't have to be lied to , to remain an Atheist.
Ewaen Idemudia Ewaen. A PHD means that the person has spent years studying a certain subject, and has been exposed to evidence to support their findings. I do not follow people blindly, that is what Christians do, when they follow clergy. I have studied the origins and evolution of Christianity for over 30 years. I have "done own damn research". I know where it came from, who wrote it, when, and why. It is far from what most Christians think. I know the "truth" about Christianity and I would not hesitate to assume you don't know it's "true" origins.
Ewaen Idemudia Ewaen, What does "mean crap" is information from research. Such as findings from Archaeologist, Historians, Geologist, and Biologist. These are the scientific disciplines that have shown the Bible to be flawed and not historical. A compilation of many text from different people written at different times. Even Genesis alone was written by several different authors, that did not agree with each other, and written 500 years after the events it tells of. Not to mention it heavily borrowed from other religions. Those findings and years of study are what has enforced my Atheism.
jim francis My friend, there are also findings from archaeologist, historians, geologist and biologist that have proven the bible to be accurate. I myself, am a researcher with an open mind. I had left the Christian faith before because I believed all these inaccuracy and lies they teach, not until I started doing my own research. I got myself admitted to a university to study religious studies just to know how to do researches on humanity, presently rounding up my masters. We studied world religion and ancient languages, I got tired of been lied to.
Some Christian doctrines, from my personal research especially that of the Catholic faith maybe twisted but doesn't make the Bible false it has to do with misinterpretations. Some Historical records in the Bible are accurate confirmed by Archaeologist, researchers , historians theologians biologist . Their are 50 kings mentioned in the Bible that had been verified to have existed
I attend seminars of all sort, I note down atheist views, everything people have to say about humanity, I check them out myself. I am only suggesting to anyone who wants to know the truth to find time to search for it them self with open heart, and not blindly following people with falsifiable facts.
For me I am now a Christian once again, but will not disregard any information against or for the Christian Bible, I will always listen to all sides.
To me so far the Bible is OK .
Ewaen Idemudia could you please note any scientific evidence in support of the Bible which comes from any Archaeologist, Geologist, Historians, ect. I have been studying Biblical origins for over 30 years and I have seen none. If you have any, I would be interested in seeing them.
The stories of "King Solomon" & all of his treasures remind me a great deal of the fantasy tales of great riches in the "1001 Arabian Nights" of the Arabian people, who, iirc, are ALSO Semitic peoples... Is it surprising that they would have many mythologies or mythological styles in common...?
+WWZenaDo Not to mention Rider Haggard.
Michael Sommers Oh, Cthulhu, NO! There's nothing in the world like Victorian-era literary excesses...
The Solomonic passages are lifted almost directly from the 1,001 Nights narrative.
Genesis 1 claims that plants that require the Sun's warmth, and photosynthetic causing full spectrum sunlight, were somehow created on day 3 before the Sun was created on day 4
Somehow, each of the first 4 days had
" evenings and mornings " which require sunrises and sunsets, yet the Sun wasn't created until day 4.
This is what happens when other people tell you what the bible author's writings say, versus reading the bible by yourself.
1.) Not a religionist here, but I thought the Armana tablets described the invading Habiru (Hebrews).
2.) The Euphrates River actually begins in the Highlands of Anatolia. Could the writer of the passage about Solomon's kingdom be more accurate if the writer had north in mind rather than east (toward Iraq)?
The bible has changed no surprise......so much for VersebyVerseBT's claim of accuracy of the hebrew scribes
*****
Uh what?
Its a fact that the KJV was altered from the original hebrew to fit the narrative of the NT better. The prophecies about virgins giving birth to someone being a prime example. The actual word used in that prophecy is alma meaning young woman however the KJV translators conveniently rendered it as virgin.
*****
I gave you the actual hebrew word and you ignored my claim saying that I am playing word games - sure try to tell a practicing Jewish scholar who knows the original hebrew that.
You are kidding? I have nothing from which to prove that the bible is not true? How about the genetic impossibility of all humans descending from two people? The absurdity of the flood? The fact that the existence of Jesus can't be confirmed contemporaneously - Josephus doesnt count since it came over 60 years after the supposed event and it may very well be a forgery given the way the passage in question interrupts the flow. The way the NT narrative contradicts ancient Jewish law, the obvious anachronisms in the story, etc.
I doubt you want to accept any of this, however, since you talk about the bible being the only true thing in the world. It is far from being true it isn't even plausible.
*****
Not interested in anything from Ron Wyatt as he is not an archaeologist and is an apologist like VersebyverseBT.
Wikipedia:
"His claims were dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars, and by leaders in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church..."
A person doesnt have much credibility when their own church and even biblical scholars dismiss him.
Hector needs his asthma pump
Truth is truth it is what it is and it should be viewed objectively and without bias.
And here, respectfully, the date we are using for Jericho is directly attached to the same historical dating methods as the low chronology and the high chronology.
You have to understand what those chronologies are based on. They are based on dynasties, and the textual and pottery connections built thereof.
Most of it runs off of Papyrus Ebers (and other astronomical dating methods) as the anchor points around which all of the dates are built.
This has no credibility at all . He has about 1000 strawman arguments and he thinks that services at proof
*****
You sound like a lunatic. The bible has helped people gain freedom throughout history. The abolition movement, the civil rights movement and personal freedom from drugs and immorality . Evil exists because human nature is evil and has been evil way before there was a bible.
*****
You are a very uninformed and misguided individual. "Religion is the source of all problems on earth" you say ? Let's test that assertion. STDs , the finacial crises and world hunger . Explain how religion is the source of all these problems?
The real root cause of all problems on earth is just the opposite of what you stated. The lack of obediance to God.
*****
I think you need to read the bible . I already read it multiple times.
AIDS is spread by sexual promiscuity . If people listened to God there woldnt be any AIDS
blaq7427 Did you really listen to Dr.Avalos lecture? He talks about bible scholars who have stated the antisemetic bias and how many of those scholars question the importance of the bible.Those aren't strawman arguments.
PAUL brandel
cont. Also were you awake when he talked about how confident biblical archaeologist were in 1900,compared to now when only a few have any confident with biblical 'history' ? Very compelling evidence against the history of the bible.
As an atheist I understand the premise of the video. But archaeology has confirmed at least one aspect of the New Testament. For centuries, it was thought that John's reference to certain places was symbolic (Pool of Bethesda with the five porticos and the Pool of Siloam where Jews cleansed themselves, etc) So the writer of John (or rather, the writer of the arrest and crucifixion) was aware of places and practices prior to 70 AD when the area was buried i the revolt. .
Job 38:1 "The Lord responded to Job from the whirlwind and said:... Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of my earth? Tell me, since you're so informed!" He was correcting Job for his attitude in the previous 37 chapters, actually in agreement with Elihu. Elihu hints at the gospel in 36. Job later repented after God spoke to him. Peace
The scarabs found just outside Jericho, themselves, are *primary sources.* Scarabs from,
1) Hatshepsut (1503-1483)
2) Thutmosis III (1504-1450)
3) Amenhotep III (1386-1349)
If Jericho was abandoned in 1550, then why would we find scarabs in its graveyard dating to 1380 B.C.?
But if, in fact, Jericho was abandoned closer to 1400, then it makes perfect sense why we don't find any scarabs after this date.
"Without a Bible, there is no Biblical scholarship and therefore no check" says the man collecting a check to criticize the Bible
Which is more cruel, forcing a 14 year old girl to be a mother of a rapist's child? Or ending that child's life before it even knows it exists (very early in the development phase, not right at 9 months)? Sometimes, life sucks. I had to decide whether to keep my dog alive and let him struggle to walk or put him to sleep. I killed my dog. I hated doing it and i was a basket case for 2 months. You clearly have not had anything like this happen in your life.
All of these dating methods overlap each other. That is something a lot of people just don't understand. Canaanite pottery, Cypriot pottery, the way walls are built, astronomical dating, dynasties, etc.
If we believed the carbon date, then we'd have to believe that the pottery and scarabs magically teleported into an abandoned city 150 years later.
Luckily for us, the carbon dates are *CONSISTENTLY* off at every data point along the fault lines during mid second century.
i especially love the fact that certain christians bang on about exodus, whilst even most jews are happy to sit there and admit its not true.
Question for you: would you eat a plate of spaghetti if you saw there was a dead mouse in it? Why, you could surely just remove the mouse and the area around him then eat the rest of the spaghetti, right?
Kenyen wanted to find diagnostic cypriot pottery to date this event. She didn't find it, and so she dated the event at 1550. The cypriot pottery has, since, been found-- thus overturning her date.
Further, the following scarabs were found in a grave just outside Jericho:
1) Hatshepsut (1503-1483)
2) Thutmosis III (1504-1450)
3) Amenhotep III (1386-1349)
No scarabs were found AFTER Amenhotep III's reign. . . since, as Kenyen discovered, the city was abandoned thereafter.
"Just because DNA is common but in different sequences of animals does not mean we are related."
No, but we also understand how reproduction works and can trace things like retrovirus infections across species. We also have the fossil record all of which substantiate the recursive changes over time that we call the tree of life. These things taken together is so strong evidence that we're related to other species that you'd need to propose a malicious lying designer to get out of it.
He was a preacher of the Pentecostal church, then a biblical scholar and bachelor in archaeology, and then became an atheist.
It is like study law and realize those laws were written by bank robbers, so you can not endorse those texts as laws anymore.
If you actually see this videos instead of commenting on the title, you may learn something.
I was a Christian for most of my life. I can hear the Christians screaming with "but, but. but" arguments. So many of the Christian arguments just do not hold water and many are self-contradicting.
The idea is to establish objective criteria which separates history from myth.
History and myth are distinct from one another in many, many ways. For example:
Historical documents consistently provide us with *testable details* (names, dates, places, people, events, etc.). Myth consistently lacks any kind of testable details. "In a land far away, there was some event for which we find no testable criteria or empirical evidence."
Myths are often based in real places, mention real people and real happenings. But they are still myth. See: the gospels.
The book of Acts records:
1) Antonias Felix, a Roman procurator of Iudaea Province 52-58 A.D.
2) Porcius Festus, Felix's successor, a Roman governor of Judea from approximately 58 to 62 AD.
3) The book of Acts does NOT record the land mark known as the great Roman fire of 64 A.D., or any subsequent events, procurators, governors, or Roman officials thereof-- even though such recording would have been in keeping with the topical coverage of the text itself.
Does he still teach at the University?
In other words, when one looks at the *chain* of evidence, interpreting exactly who are these "habiru" for which "all Canaan will be lost unless Egypt acts" becomes a simple enough task.
The more data we gather, the better context we have of the Amarna letters and the Merneptah Stele.
I really respect Avalos, honestly. And this isn't meant to be a slight: He has a chronic respiratory problem and he needs to have it checked out. I am saying this out of concern for him. If he catches pneumonia it's not going to be good for him.
He died April 14, 2021
Because recording such events and people would have been clearly obligatory, given the book of Acts subject matter, one has to conclude that the Book of Acts was written some time before 64 A.D., and some time after 58 A.D.
Most scholars accept that Luke and Acts is a two part work. And that Luke draws from the sources of Mathew and Mark. Therefore one can place Luke, Mathew, and Mark between 40-60 A.D.
Who was it who said "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived" ?
Eduard Meyer, in his Aegyptische Chronologie, writes that the Papyrus of Ebers has caused the Egyptologists a great amount of difficulty, since, as Meyer writes (p. 48), Brugsch had proven that the New Year's Feast accountable to Sirius corresponded to the 1st of Mesori, and, not, as on the Papyrus of Ebers, to the 9th of Epiphi. Hence, the Papyrus of Ebers corrects the position of Sirius in the calendar for precession.
..and Jesus said “may the forgiving man walk among the deprived and become like them and it is the forgiving man that will heal and love them for they are not without blankets of sadness” and on that day Jesus did walk up to the king and demand a road be paved so as the chosen feet not ache anymore. ..and Jesus said “for those of you who will be so kind to scratchiest my backist I will lay hands upon you and make you a better person, and I shall scratchiest thou own back unto me, and so shall a new born child of deceit be made the ruler of the rats” then similar to an illusionist.. Jesus made the Statue of Liberty disappear with a blanket of sadness.
from the "Quid Pro Quo" sermon, chapter eleventy.
Christopher Bronk Ramsey, Radiocarbon-Based Chronology for Dynastic Egypt, Science 18 June 2010: Vol. 328. no. 5985, pp. 1554-1557.
"We used 211 radiocarbon measurements made on samples from short-lived plants. . . in the Nile Valley."
The Nile Valley is located well AWAY from the fault lines.
The carbon dating matches the date assigned to Ahmose I based on the traditional interpretation of the Papyrus Ebers.
This is a bit like how a dome in a cathedral is a self supporting structure with mutual dependencies between all the stones after the scaffolding is removed, but before that scaffolding was removed, it would be easy to add or remove stones.
"Djeserkare" is the horus name of Amenhotep I. The "rising of Sirius" denotes that this constellation is rising in point of reference to the sun. What modern astronomers call a "helical rise."
The Helical rise of Sirius is an event which takes place every 1,471 years.
The latitude at which this observation was made must be known in order for astronomers to assign a date to the observation.
And so she looked for a diagnostic form of Cypriot pottery to assist her in which stratigraphic layer to assign. She didn't find it, so she went with the higher date.
That cypriot pottery has, since, been found.
And the Papyrus Ebers has nothing to do with medical texts. Papyrus Ebers reads as follows:
“Ninth year of the reign of his majesty the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Djeserkare - may he live forever! Festival of the New Year: third month of summer, ninth day - rising of Sirius.”
Job 32 Elihu starts to speak. Job 36 he continues "I get my knowledge from afar;
I will ascribe justice to my Maker.
4 Be assured that my words are not false;
one who has perfect knowledge is with you." Alihu continues to address Job in 37 saying, "do you know how God does this?" and tells him. "...can you join him in spreading out the skies,
hard as a mirror of cast bronze?" God speaks in 38
DAVID THERE IS NOTHING IN THE
WOULD WILL ARACE GOD I AM WHO
I AM! THE WORD OF GOD IS LIFE!
GOD CREATED EVERY THING WE ALL
SEE! THERE IS NOTHING WILL DESTROY! THE HOLY BIBLE!🙂
herp derp, derpidity derp derp.
Absolutely! But I've heard creationists refusing to believe that radiometrics is real. The problem with most evolution deniers is that they don't even have the basics of a science education. Anyway, I think it's time for us to stop confusing them by calling evolution a theory. It's a fact, and natural selection is the theory that explains the mechanism of evolution :)
This poor man is just embarrassing himself. I doubt that he has ever visited the Middle East.
The lowest latitudinal observation point at Thebes yields a date of 1517.
The highest latitudinal observation point at Memphis yields a date of 1537.
Hence, the low chronology and the high chronology. From this anchor point, and other astronomical observations like it throughout Egyptian records, we can very reliably build a series of textual and pottery dating methods around such astronomical observations as Papyrus Ebers records.
The bible will not stand under the bright light of logic and reason.
Biophysicist Dr. Lee Spetner. Non-Christian, supports non-random evolution. Quote:
"Reptiles and birds are very different. Reptiles have no genetic information for wings or feathers. To change a reptile into a bird would require the addition of. . .complex information. . . . I really do not believe that the neo-Darwinian model can account for large scale evolution. What they really can’t account for is the build up of information"
When I was in Jerico I found a lot of Goldstar beer bottles. Jerico is on major trade rouits, it's never totally abandoned. Your travelling companion dies, what are you going to do with him in Summer temperatures of 50C? Drag him up into the Judean wilderness? Take him to the rocky fastness of Moab? Use the conveniently located road-side cemetary. New Kingdom scarabs are rare by anyones standard, and that none are found at Jerico after Amenhotep surprises nobody.
Watzinger and Sellin established a 1550bc date in 1911, Garstang dates later for idiological reasons. Kenyon confirmed the German results (she was also working at the suggestion of Albright). Wood, of Biblical Research proposed 1400bc, as he must, but did not settle the debate and he was forced to defend his argument against direct criticism, specifically from Piotr Bienkowski. The SCIEM debate is a problem for Egyptologists, not for physicists.
The Nylon bug is a perfect example. What has been discovered, is the existence of 'insertion DNA sequences'. These sections of DNA can insert themselves into other places in the chromosome, resulting in a frameshift of the DNA. Say I have a code of 5 numbers. 12345, my Frame is 5 numbers long. Now say someone inserts a 0, but my frame is still five numbers. 012345. The new frame would be 01234, and the 5 is ignored. But what is actually 'new' to the code?
Sure, I get where you are going. You are saying that, as a stand alone piece, the interpretation is ambiguous.
But when one attaches it to a chain of evidence from Jericho, to Hazor, to the Exodus crossing point itself, the interpretation becomes much less ambiguous a feat.
The real key is, that, we have to ask what word would the Egyptian empire of that time have assigned to the Jews of Joshua's day? "Apiru" or "Habiru" is exactly the word one would expect them to ascribe to denote them.
Digs at Jericho found:
1) Full jars of grain. Which meant the city was taken just after harvest time as the Joshua account asserts.
2) The inner walls tumbled down so that every man climb go up and into the city just as the report asserts.
3) Full food stores meant a very short siege just as the report asserts.
4) The city lay in abandon after being destroyed, just as the Joshua account asserts.
Cont. when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
Has anything changed in the archeologist world? Have any discoveries been made to prove any the biblical accounts of history true...
1) This is specifically about biblical truth so it would not be relevant to your deistic styled agnosticism. 2) If you are looking for information why there is no reason to believe in a prime mover, a deistic god, "creative force" (which I guess assumes intelligence/consciousness of some sort) I would recommend physicist Victor Stenger's book "The Folly of Faith" for the science end and the new A.C Grayling's "A Case For Humanism" for the philosophical arguments against your line of thinking.
Synchronizing these civilizations, and lowering the plus or minus range, is a primary goal of any ancient historian or archaeologist.
The more connections we can make, the higher our confidence levels in various dates becomes.
Always remember though. Testing THAT something happened is different than testing WHEN something happened. The issues need to be bifurcated. Again and again, the bible passes the first criteria.
Exodus is particularly remarkable in this regard. History is history.
Jesus wasn't even relevant until Jerome wrote the Vulgate during the late 4th or early 5th century. There is speculation that the early Church Fathers fought over the name of the iconic figure of the new religion during the Nicene Council. As a result the earliest known bibles commissioned by Constantine only mention IYXY (the Y is actually a U) which Christians are quick to tell you was shorthand for Jesus Christ, but the scribes had no trouble writing Pontius Pilate and Mary Magdalene.
Sources?
Wasn't jesus christ, was merely yeshua, or yeheshua, or Joshua. Not jesus, simply another Joshua. Some will argue that yeheshua is not the same as yeshua, but that is a wanton desire for Jesus to be more than he was: an itinerant, apolitical preacher who wanted believers to pay no attention for the morrow, as today may be all you have. For this desert, apocalyptical preacher to have been crucified, as a Jewish upstart, is nothing special. To believe it to be more than what it, in reality, was is to believe more than what was believable, even back in that time. "Oh ye hippocrites, go fuck yourselves." No words were spoken, that ring truer to modern Christians. Most Christian's have the faintest idea that they believe in utter bullshit. These Christians believe in the Christianity of Paul - a jew. Christ, read the entirety of your Holy Book. If you still hold to your belief, know that the rest of us, that have also read your book think you the fool.
Continued: You may say the 0 is new to the code. But that is not actually true in genetics, because the insertion sequence existed elsewhere in the DNA. It's new to that section of the code, but it's not actually new information, nor is the 1234 that was originally there.
This is what happened with the nylon bug. The bacteria already consumed a substance chemically similar to the nylon. This frameshift in DNA allowed the bacteria to consume nylon. But none of it is "new" DNA code.