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Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History - Part 2 of 2
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- čas přidán 7. 05. 2011
- Atheist Talk cable program by Minnesota Atheists.
"Hector Avalos: How Archaeology Killed Biblical History" recorded 10/23/2007
Part 2 of 2
Hector Avalos is professor of religious studies at Iowa State University and the author or editor of six books on Biblical studies and religion, including his recently published work, The End of Biblical Studies. Join us for a fascinating presentation detailing how the more we discover about the ancient world, the less reliable we find the Bible.
From the dust jacket of The End of Biblical Studies: Hector Avalos calls for an end to biblical studies as we know them. He outlines two main arguments for this surprising conclusion.
First, academic biblical scholarship has clearly succeeded in showing that the ancient civilization that produced the Bible held beliefs about the origin, nature, and purpose of the world and humanity that are fundamentally opposed to the views of modern society. The Bible is thus largely irrelevant to the needs and concerns of contemporary human beings.
Second, Avalos criticizes his colleagues for applying a variety of flawed and specious techniques aimed at maintaining the illusion that the Bible is still relevant in today's world. In effect, he accuses his profession of being more concerned about its self-preservation than about giving an honest account of its own findings to the general public and faith communities.
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One note: P52 has been re-examined. The original dating was by the style of the letters being similar to an exemplar text of that style of writing. John Ryland's Library in Manchester, England now holds that "Recent research points to a date nearer to 200 AD"
(Para.2 Sentence 4)
www.library.manchester.ac.uk/search-resources/special-collections/guide-to-special-collections/st-john-fragment/what-is-the-significance/
Thanks for setting me free from these crazy Pastors and churches!!!
When the lady mentioned The Council of Nicea as where they decided what books were canonized, The Council of Nicea was where they decided on the divinity of Jesus. It was about 30 years later when they determined the books that were canonized.
tod beard
Yes I agree but the Council of Nicea set the foundation because deliberations left matters with many questions. It was after Arius died that the drive to canonise certain books gained momentum
And no Ecumenical Council ever formalized the Canon until Trent in the mid 1500's.
Thank you for posting this, MinnesotaAtheists.
Great talk!
Important note: From what I’ve read, the Council of Nicaea was not about assembling the cannon of the church, but rather was about setting the rules of how Christ, Yahweh and the Holy Spirit were one and the same. It was mostly political maneuvering. Cannonizing came years later.
For anyone interested in further reading on the subject of whether the bible Yahweh had a wife - & more importantly, where the bible Yahweh came from, I highly recommend Mark S. Smith's book, "The Early History of God - Yahweh & the Other Deities in Ancient Israel".
In it, Professor Smith discusses the Canaanite origins of the bible gods, the gradual eclipsing of the main god "El" by the smaller war-god Yahweh (& the various sub-versions of Yahweh), the coopting of various other deities' characteristics by the eventually-consolidated-into-one Yahweh deity, & more.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Turandot29 You're welcome! In that same book, Professor Smith also recommends a number of other books, if you would like to do further reading on the subject.
***** Thanks. I've read Did God Have A Wife by William Dever which is perhaps one of the most important books I've read. I'm currently reading The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and have a number of Hector Avalos' books on my to-do list so your recommendation will be a worthy addition.
***** Happy to donate to your reading list!
Here's a great lecture on that topic: czcams.com/video/_ZADRRdaUG8/video.html
The most important info in this video is when someone asked if Yahweh had a wife. The scriptural & archaeological answer to that question is yes! And what many don't realize is the answer is devastating to the Judeo-Christian Religion.
In the OT, the Dead Sea Scrolls, & recent recovered artifacts, evidence was found that Yahweh was given the same consort (Asherah), which originally belonged to the supreme god, El. Historical evidence says early Judaism worshiped El, his consort, and his sons.
He's shocked that *pastors*, you know -- the *shepherds of their flock* -- treat them like sheep?
He's shocked that people allow themselves to be treated as sheep.
2 million people, roaming a 140 mile stretch of desert for 40 years should leave a shit trail. That's 2 million people shitting on every square inch of land for 140 miles. If they walked single file, the line would stretch from Egypt to Israel ( Palestine). If they took the coastal route, they would have gotten there in a week. Did they get lost or what? How does it take 40 years to walk 140 miles.
+BOB OVER It would also make them very easy to track and kill when they were still alive.
BOB OVER from what I’ve learned, “forty” was a euphemism in ancient times for the idea of “a long time” or “a lot”. Ex: Forty thieves, forty days and nights.
I'm an atheist and the story is bunk, however this is not a good argument against the tale. The population could have wandered in totally wrong directions for long periods... there is nothing saying they started off with a known destination in mind, and in fact, the story says God decided to hide the destination till they were "ready" to enter the promised land.
A theist would simply say they may have ended up 140 miles from their starting point, but they could have traveled thousands of miles to get there.
Easily understood as God the Creator led the Exodus.
I really appreciate all the information from this video, it has made me more aware of the reality behind a huge history that I don't think I would have ever found out by myself!
I became an atheist just by reading the bible, once I got to the end, that was it.
I have always said that a Christian that would really read the bible would become an atheist!
Did You read the part that you can not understand unless given the understating from God? Because the wisdom of God is foolishness to this world
Did anybody here know that the US government treats Atheism as a religion giving it a tax exempt status for one group
Everyone should have a tax exempt status until everyone has to pay taxes.
@@48acar19 A person who becomes an athiest by reading the Bible is an idiot.
Very good job, the truth finally came out!
Kind David was a king of a small cow village.
+GanjaFarmer He should have been a Ganja farmer.
Very well presented, I enjoyed this immensely.
Oh, not the "Shroud of Turin" again...!! That the shroud's fabric dated to the late 1200's to 1300's A.D. renders it impossible that it was around in "Jesus" day...
***** Maybe Jesus was alive at that time and in the area so he had the latest camera obscura image taken of himself :p
+Agimaso Schandir Sort of a retroactive selfie?
It's a double miracle.
Somebody played a massive joke on the Catholic Church, LOL.
@@jenniferbrewer5370 There was a massive industry in medevil times profiting from biblical forgeries. You could travel to ten different cities in Europe that had 'the cross' that Jesus was crusified on for instance. Every character from the Bible was used, John the Baptist being really popular. They just are addicted to scamming people those good Christians.
The Bible is an amazing book. It's thousands of years old, yet some people still believe it, some people keep refining their arguments against it. It just won't go away.
Oh it will
Certainly in the mainstream as a belief system, Bible inspired religion is on the way out
This is the first time when someone could criticize it s d not be killed for it
The internet is bringing these ideas and arguments to a wider audience, more quickly than ever dreamed possible
I’m so short a time, look at the damage
In my country, 30 years has seen it more or less fall from authority to irrelevance
It's like a cockroach.
Absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this man’s teachings rest in peace and may your memory be blessed❤
Thank you for your work and time
Interesting presentation, thanks.The best way to become atheist is to read the bible in it's integrity, which obviously most believers never did but would never admit to, of course. For more on the subject, two interesting videos on YT: ''Who Wrote the Bible'' and ''Caesar's Messiah''. Cheers.
The Council of Nicea did not decide which books were going to be in the Bible.
The devil picked the books.
The Church History Channel Horseshit
The Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with setting the canon of the New Testament. The council dealt with Arianism and the doctrine of the trinity. There never was an ecumenical council that officially set the canon of the New Testament. The canon became established by practice and convention.
To answer the first woman's question: Price wrote "The Pre-Nicean Bible" that contains a lot of the earlier writings.
Rene Salm has shown that Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus and the location doesn't match what is described in the Bible. I have read also that Bethlehem and Capernaum did not exist but have not read thoroughly on those.
Emmaus has never been located as well, IIRC.
Great audience :)
Excellent, excellent!!!!!
I wish someone would ask more hard hitting questions, especially given it was a friendly audience. For example, if we grant his theses that the scribes and priests represented a minority of the population, and most of their contemporaries were polytheists, and they only wrote for themselves because most people lacked the training, why did they weave together conflicting ideas? We take it for granted that Dr. Avalos is reading the text fairly, but it makes them out to be foolish geniuses. Like they are staunch monotheists but don't even recognize they (allegedly) worship multiple gods and their wife/wives. I find him much easier to follow when he is discussing material remains than when he tries to read the text.
Surprised that Hector did not correct the first questioner, the council of Nicea was NOT called to decide the New Testament Canon, instead it was called to argue the case of the divinity dope Jesus Arius espoused, a view defeated and declared heresy and led later to the Nicene creed.
If the Israelites had just followed the coastline, they could have walked to the Levant in a matter of weeks. In fact, traveling a few abreast, the first group would be arriving not long after the last group left Egypt.
The "40 years wandering" in the desert (the Sainai) is very difficult to understand in any sense.
Why do people like to use books to tell them what to do? Because humans -- like their chimp cousins -- have urges for (a) hierarchy, and (b) a sense of "fairness".
Having a king (and how much higher of a king can you get than God?) etch rules in stone satisfies both hierarchy and fairness, since while it's easy for a judge to on a whim change unwritten rules, it's much harder to change what's written in stone.
VideoAudioDisco09 "But the "biblical rules" are hideous"
Some (mostly OT) are, some (mostly NT) aren't.
"and have been, dumped, ignored and simply re-interpreted by whim and generational change."
Humans are pretty amazing creatures, huh, able to reinterpret and ignore while still claiming that it the same "old time religion" that was "good enough for grandpa".
"Even now across Thousands of denominations the is *significant* *differences* in *interpretation*."
Since I was a Christian for many decades, I can truthfully say that's not true.
These are the 4 main strands:
1) Roman Catholicism + Anglicanism
2a) Protestant Calvinism
2b) Protestant Evagelicalism (Methodism, Baptists, pentecostals)
3) Eastern Orthodoxy
(I don't consider sects -- Mormons, United Pentecostals, 7th Day Adventists, etc -- that deny the Trinity to actually be Christian.)
The two western branches (Catholicism & Protestantism) hold to the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. After that, the big differences are:
1) Veneration/worship -- or not -- of Mary and the saints.
2) Predestination
3) Infant baptism
4) Whether or not you are Born Again just by being a member of the Church, or through an act of Will.
VideoAudioDisco09 "Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell."
You're one of those Asperger people who don't understand metaphor.
"Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves"
Every version of the Bible that I've looked in has Mark 12 ending at verse 44 (the parable of the Widow's Mite.
VideoAudioDisco09 You tell me where Mark 12:46-47 are, and I'll tell you how the virgin birth, walking on water and feeding the 5000 aren't "cruel things".
VideoAudioDisco09 "Now you flipped to cruel???"
You're the one who two days ago wrote "However *NT* includes many silly and *cruel* things." then gave a non-existent Bible reference.
+RonJohn63 What you, personally, "consider" to be true is irrelevant. That is the problem with most religious folks. For some strange and unfathomable reason, they think their beliefs are worthy of respect. You are worshiping a made-up caricature of a god whose cult was founded in the Bronze Age. It simply is not relevant today. If you need a book to tell you right from wrong, please see a psychiatrist.
Excellent presentation!
Gen Meow i actually thought Avalos had good info to share. But he looks desperate to disprove the Bible. Not convincing at all
Looks desperate? In what way?
+Gen Meow - like a lot of converts, he probably finds it important to over-refute the errors he used to believe.
Most of the New Atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.) seem to be myopically refuting their personal childhood indoctrinations. That's fine, but it's not very interesting for others. They're right, but it's usually a small picture view.
I was always an atheist, so I'm maybe more aware of their scars than they are.
I still don't understand how that would make Avalos "look desperate."
In the end it's the shepherd who devours the sheep.😉
I think I'll go biblical on this one "Behold the truth shall set you free!"
"According to the laws of nature, when a person dies, the body decays, becoming corrupt and withering away. But there are saints in the Catholic Tradition whose bodies have defied all laws of science and have been preserved in ways which do not concur with the natural law. Science is as yet unable to explain them. There are dozens, if not hundreds of Saints considered to be Incorrupt. This video shows just a few." czcams.com/video/9jE0j8M1Pfo/video.html
It's a shame at Avalos lets a questioner get away with saying that the Council of Nicea established the canon. This isn't true, and he dances around it, perhaps trying not to offend the questioner. As a result, he lets an untruth stand.
Naiant As far as I've seen, sometimes he didn't understand pretty well some questions, maybe this is the reason why he hasn't adressed the issue, as for example did Robert Price with the same question in his debate with James White...
Naiant I don't think Avalos does support her idea. He says the earliest canonical listing was from the _Easter Letter_ of Athanasius, which was later then the Council of Nicea. The canon was still being tweeked past the 5th century.
Agimaso Schandir The Catholic canon was settled at the Synod of Hippo, 393.
I would take issue with his contention that Nazareth existed. Origen said he didn't know where it was when he lived 20 miles away. There is no ancient reference, including Josephus, who lists the settlements of the Galilee. No roman or Talmud reference. When Helen went looking for it she found a well. The site selected to be Nazareth doesn't fit the Gospel description. There's no hill to cast anyone down from. There are no remains for the period.
+gamesbok I'm pretty sure Nazareth was not a real place. I've had many chats with "scholars" of linguistics who all have said that Jesus of Nazareth was mistranslated. It should have been translated as Jesus of THE Nazareth. The Nazareth or Nazarene was a religious sect, not an actual place.
+Old Man from Scene Twenty Four Samson from the Book of Judges was a Nazarite, and so was John the Baptist. If John was, and he baptized Jesus, then so was Jesus.
That's because the early 'Jews' were, in actuality, Canaanites. No separate people called Hebrew or Israelite...just Canaanites.
William Wilson True they were the desert wanderers and criminals of the Canaanite cultures.
Have you ever heard of the doctrine of Christian forbearance,? That will be found in the Constitution of Virginia of 1776.
China, since 500 BCE, has been ordered by the Confuciun Classics, regardless of what particular dynasty held the Imperial Throne. The Confucian Bureaucracy, the Mandarins, held the real power. All worthwhile knowledge was in Confucius, promotion within the Bureaucracy was based on knowledge of the Classics proved in tests. Did Europe, and Christianity, copy the Chinese.? It seems like it.
Great video
Talking about "The naked archeologist" (which is Mr. Iacobovitch, an observant Orthodox Jew), I can say that for me his shows on the TV "History Channel" were more than funny. He did "explain" to us once that the ancient Trident (of the god Hermes) symbolizes "the Holy Trinity". Actually he could have said anything since the level of education in America is so low.
arghhh the Darth Vadar Breathing in between words!
The TRUTH is WITHIN YOU
Hi everyone may everyone be BLESSED and be a BLESSING
is there a word for "more delusional"?
Yes, it is "monotheistic".
Nice improper function morpheme syntax.
+eddeva swann Muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist, etc.
+mike112769 I'll take issue with Buddhism, it's a philosophy not a religion. Some Buddhists do pray to Buddha for guidance but those are fooling themselves thinking a dead fat man will talk to them, but otherwise Buddhism has no dogma or other trappings of the usual religious suspects.
Old Man from Scene Twenty Four
...and for sure that's a major talking point in the boats full of refugees fleeing from Myanmar, muslims that run from being killed by buddhists.
In other words,human beings did just fine without a governmentally endorsed religion for most of our history...hurry the day when we return to that mindset.
That woefully-misinformed first questioner... the records of the proceedings of the Council of Nicaea do not indicate ANY discussion of the canonicity of Scriptural books whatsoever...
The whole think was Greek invention.. the zodiac 12 and the Sun as it goes across the sky constellations..that is why if you do the math especially geometry .it will all make sense.
This has nothing with validating or invalidating that Christianity is true. But what he didnt say is that the four gospels included in the Bible cannon are all dated to be written from 60-90s. Historians agree on that. The fact we dont have the actual originals or ones that old is true. But that doesnt mean a later date is probable. No historian would say that. Other so called written gospels were written 2nd century and later. They all reflect beliefs such as gnosticism that fit in the 2nd century mindset.
Thanks Hector, tell it like it is but sadly you always end up preaching to the converted. You should hook up with Mat Dillahunty in Austin Texas he too is trying hard to spread the light.
If you say he only had to take the kinds and not all the different species, well there is still over 50,000 kinds. Times 2 is 100,000.And even if that were the case somehow. The only way that the species we see today could get here from those kinds is by evolution.Plus he had to bring food for these animals for a year. Just one african elephant eats between 300 and 600 pounds of food a day.And produces 80 to 300 pounds of dung a day.That is over 200,000 pounds of food for 2 elephants for a year.
Oops, he misinformed! The earliest NT texts are the Pauline letters, circa 50 A.D. Although no originals, still, its a good bet his letters to various churches that were then copied & shared, preserved, etc.answering questions of controversy, teachings.. But the dates are still in 50s! Mark gospel, as early as 70s, but first gospel. So a little misleading ... Also we have no originals of the Iliad, of the Greek dramatist, of Plato, etcetcetc, so that argument is dubious, at best!
a lot of topics are not primitive most are modern and post modern, besides the claims about Christianity, so called. Example, electricity, science, technology, philosophy, meta,narrative. which are great, they make life easier, God also want us to learn things to be able to help our selves. we are a networking universe, those negative things we try to avoid as much as possible.
Did you get that via revelation perhaps?
I wonder if Mr. Avalos would remotely consider any of the arguments for God based on moral, fine tunning of the universe, etc. specifically what Frank Turek ussually argues!
Francisco Gutierrez The biggest problems with fine turning arguments, are that all they could prove at best is that something created the universe. People then make the leap that "Of course if something created the universe, it's the Christian god", as if that is the only reasonable option of a creator.
Horton Crow I agrre with that statement!
They're not very good arguments, is what I would say. They're not even bad arguments - they're terrible.
In any argument, "god" is always an unfounded premise. Every argument works better if you just leave it out.
1. Morals. Nonsense. The universe is blatantly and boldly amoral. If there are gods they are so far invisible, and it's not obvious from a study of nature that there would be any moral implications to their possible existence. Sorted.
2. Fine Tuning. My ass. It should be no surprise that the things we find in the universe are ones permitted by the natural laws of the universe... Meanwhile, almost every centimeter and millisecond of the vastness of the universe is a drastically hostile environment for life. Only a few tiny places can possibly host life, and that only briefly. If the universe is fine tuned, it's for the benefit of quarks and photons; it's actually very poorly tuned for us, His creatures. (I've heard He prefers beetles.) Sorted.
+Bo Zo
Tardigrades will rule the universe....!
Why give some made-up sky god credit for solely human achievements? No God built the Pyramids; humans did that. No sky god came up with the internal combustion engine. And Johann Gutenberg had no supernatural help in inventing the printing press.
Are talking about. I have read much research where scientists will admit they do not know how evolution can be a factor when the human cell or eye is so intricately designed
Karianne Merritt No you have not read peer reviewed journals and accepted scientific books claiming that.There is no such article in any journal stating anything of the like that is accepted by peer reviewed science.You are a liar.
@DrCraig711 pt 2
The most evident of the differences are seen with the major differences we find between the Isa of Quran, Jesus of Bible, and Jesus the Palestinian 1 st century historical person.
Historically, the Jesus of the Bible gives a fairly good historical outline for what 98% or scholars and historians agree on...
Jesus lived, he died on a cross, and his closest followers that were Jews expanded a faith called Christianity threw out Rome.
why people still reading and writing books and still keep their manuscripts from first, second, and third hand information if the bible is not true?
because after 345 CE the Roman Empire (then Catholicism in middle ages) burned competing books and forced conversions on the rest of the world at the end of a sword and at the stake burning heretics. 1,700 years later you have the gall to ask?
Depending on what you are reading, that your rights even if it is not true.
Behold the Power of the Blood Sacrifice Cults of Abraham.
History confirms Truth of Scripture. It's only depressing how blind these people are...
As in his story.
Unfortunately, I didn't find this to be a very good presentation. The majority of it was just quote mining other people. Quite disappointing.
@edward king I didn't say anything about an argument. Perhaps you should take a moment and read my comment.
I stated that I found it disappointing. If I am going to hear, or watch, someone give a presentation. I have no interest in listening to them quote other people the majority of their time, offering nothing new, or insightful, to what they are quoting. This was not a professor teaching a class. Your, "this is how we learn", is irrelevant to my comment. Especially given that he wasn't teaching anything. This was comparable, in my opinion, to a last minute replacement speaker, who isn't even in the field he is speaking on, scrambling through Google searches, the morning of the presentation. Or, a school aged person, who waited until the night before, to write a paper they have to give an oral presentation on.
Well, first most scientists don't know what they
You'd think this presentation and the simple, evidence supported info offered would be of keen interest to the very vocal tribe of Biblical Historians...I mean followers of that fellow Hovind or whatever his name is and those of like beliefs. Those folks have a big grab bag of "scientific", but Bible friendly explanations for the more popular Sunday School stories (Noah's Ark, Genisis, etc). Simple as it is, this stuff probably exceeds their tolerance for rational thought.
Dearth Vader in the background.
Next we'll find that Fred Flintstone was a modern day myth! It's out of control.
Scientist are in complete accord regarding the validity of the princilpes of evolution. The evidence is simply overwhelming. What you have written is inaccurate.
He said that Nazareth existed...
Nazareth is another name for zodiac.
I read the new testament from cover to cover. The bible (bable) refutes itself.
If you do not quote mining out of context then Charles Darwin would not admit that.
why some people envy and hate and persecuted the bible?
Because the bible is a proven lie.
itsatz I think it's more because it was used as an excuse and even a means to kill and conquer
Gerald Bennett
Because it's a piece of trash full of stolen mythologies
Rebone Makgato no it isn't, it's an important historical document!
NDRonin1401
A historical document???
How so?
None of the people mentioned in the bible ever existed.
why some people making a lot of money hating the bible?
More people making money on the back of the"bible"than hating,so start with your own camp,partner!!
It's not hating. it's just finding out historical facts which unfortunately for christians may be proving that the bible like all religions are truly just man made. I myself was a devout christian for decades until I got tired of having my head filled like a jelly donut every single Sunday with cherry-picked sermons. I educated myself on all things science and biblical history, and I must say Im can no longer deny facts. There's a reason people all over the world are becoming less religious. Outrageous stories demand explanations which there are none. I tried for years to defend the bible...advancements in science and discovery are debunking this book daily. Just because science can't explain everything (for now) does not mean the default answer is a sky-daddy. Sorry.
Facts are facts.
www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/books/new-torah-for-modern-minds.html?pagewanted=allwww.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the-biblical-exodus-story-is-fiction_b_1408123.htmljust the facts mam
Why is "thinking" "hating"? You use the same argument that killed people because they didn't agree with the facts in the bible that the earth is not the center of the universe.
A cross cultural society produced so much of the same, salvation provide peace, Jesus save try him today.
I strongly disagree on the so-called Biblical Scholars specially for the one who introduces himself as an atheist then gives his so-called unbiased and unprejudiced lecture presentation. All I’ve heard was his explanation based on his personal point of view and providing evidence based on it and undermining other facts. I believe that in an investigation to find the truth one must not claim finality but probabilities first. What scholars also doesn’t tells us also is the basis for the date for all archeological discoveries are being base and interpreted. This they don’t want to change otherwise the archeological discoveries from the time of Joseph and Hebrews in Egypt to exodus led by Moses to the conquest of Joshua of Walls of Jericho and other kingdom will fit in. That if they will move the date much later date for the basis for archeological findings then it will prove a very high and satisfactory evidence of the historical foundation of the OT.
But why will and why won’t the scholars do it?
Another thing, if all they were saying is true then how come the Israelites as a people and all their traditions exist until this date? For thousands of years the Jews were scattered to different nations from the time they were conquered by the Assyrian, Babylonians to the Roman Empire and only after World War II did they became a nation again, how come they have retained their uniqueness as a people and their traditions if the passover and exodus didn’t happened. And why is it that there is no other race in the history of mankind but only the Jews are the people who would want to be exterminated many times in history until today? The mere existence of Jews as a people puzzles me. I believe the so-called scholars cannot explain it too. The existence of the Jews tells a ton of things better than artefacts. Scholars might want to carbon-date them too.
All of us, if individually after hundreds of years, people from the future did not find an archeological proof about us, does that also mean we did not exist into this world? If the story of Jesus is not true, then they must provide us an explanation of why and who and the motivations and the enormous impact the inventor/s did to humanity. Then we will study and critic their explanation. I bet they just can’t. How are they going to explain the “sequel” of the different epistles? Who are the genius story tellers? To say the writings of the New Testament is a myth is more unbelievable.
Lastly, if neither the so-called scholars nor so-called religious can fully claim that they are 100% sure and 100% correct on their view about Jesus if he truly existed or not. We must not forget that the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contains prophecy too. If Jesus is the Christ, that He is who He says He is then He will prove it because He promised He will come back again and He will judge and rule the earth. I respect the scholars but their words and claims are not infallible they are still subject to error. I prefer to read the times.
I may not be a scholar but as for me, I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
That argument is silly, because Darwin outlines the evolution of the eye in "The Origin of Species." ID-ers really need to try harder.
The bible is the single greatest propagandised book in history, but the believers or Christians or the Jewish people cannot deal with how and why it was created and put together. I’m lucky that I was brought up non religiously but those who were find it so difficult to regard it as written purely by men and not a god.
@VanDammesCokeDealer
Wow.
See, a christian can go to secular scholarship for evidence of the historical Jesus.
Only radical and fairly sceptical scholarship accepts your view.
I mean hey, Paul didn't walk/talk with Jesus during his mission yet after his vision he went into seclusion for 3 years, went to Jerusalem to meet Peter but meet James the Just/the Younger *who josephus also mentioned*.
Then just let it go already!!
And there is so much evidence for a designer
Karianne Merritt Present said Evidence.Evidence means it must be observable ,physical and measurable.There is no Empirical evidence for your delusion.
Still waiting for the evidence, Karianne.
The Bible is supreme you don't have to look too far any...,Genesis 1 :1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. psalms 100 it is God that made us verse 3,Here's something that is more comprehensive John 1:1-3 said that the thinker made all things verses 15 -18 show Jesus to be that one...is great we all used it ,but the Bible have these truth at our Finger Tips if we are interested. if not we can fallow whatever information we want,But the Bible says Jesus is the salvation Roman 1:16 The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, and it is the Gospel of Christ.
So your confirmation for the facts in this book is..... The book. Do you understand That all of the other religions that you "know" are wrong use the very same logic?
The Odyssey is very clear that Pilos is the home of far flung Odysseus, to whence with aid of Athena he was miraculously returned. In the theme song, it says very clearly that it was the courage of the fearless crew that brought the Minnow safely through the tempest to Gilligan's Island. Et cetera.
Where is his church and preachers?
Where you attend.
The first question and answer are both falsehoods. The muratorian fragment lists the "essential" canon, meaning Paul's letters and the Gospels before the end of the 2nd century. This is the problem with the "Atheist" movement, they continually distort the facts which is why no one takes them seriously.
+protochris I think he said that the letter of Athanasius is the first official list with the current canon of 27 books in use today. All the previous ones including the muratorian fragment have different books. Regarding the letter of Athanasius as the earliest official canon is not something atheists invented. It comes from the majority of Christian scholars. Avalos could have been more precise in his answer saying there were earlier lists with other books but ask yourself are you always perfectly precise when you talk. Looking back you always realize there were things you missed.
In any case if that minor objection is all you have against the whole lecture you really are grasping at straws in trying to attack him. This is the problem with Christians. Modern science has beaten them so badly that they have to grab any little objection to try to discredit the mountain of evidence against them.
Not a minor objection when an erroneous claim is made to create a false premise; it's an indefensible oversight. The canon of Athanasius was the first "authoritative", but not "official" list. It was done to eliminate spurious books, not include any. The nucleus of the Muratorian canon (2nd century) and Athanasius' agree on their essential nucleus, this is the key issue. Modern archaeological discoveries have only embarrassed the irresponsible claims of anti-Christian polemicists.
protochris
False premise? Did you even watch the actual talk in part 1? This is just a question in the question and answer section. The archaeological discoveries he talks about are about many other things. In his lecture the formation of the canon is not even mentioned at all let alone a premise to anything he said. It's obvious you just looked at the first few minutes of this video and dismissed the whole lecture right away because he did not clarify his answer properly on this minor point. The only irresponsible claims here are from you. Again more proof that Christians are just grasping at straws. Pathetic. You wanted to pretend you knew so much and could dismiss Dr. Avalos in one stroke only to make a fool out of yourself.
Avalos gives no reason to continue listening when he makes irresponsible claims like Pope Leo formed the canon by burning books he disagreed with.This is either gross ignorance or extreme propaganda, while ignoring 300 years of prior history.He then falsely claims the Nag Hammadi manuscripts are authentic teaching, yet weren't written until the 2nd century. Avalos is simply preaching to his choir of indoctrinated militant atheists.
See, I knew it. You did not even watch his talk and had the arrogance to start making false claims about Avalos using the letter of Athanasius as a premise for his arguments. Now you are just making excuses for your arrogant and ignorant behavior.
Christians did form the canon through violence. That is undeniable. They did burn heretical books many times. Leo did have the the books of the Manicheans burned when they came to Rome. That is just one example. When the roman emperors became Christian the persecution of anybody labeled heretic started. There was burning of their books, destruction of pagan temples by the civil authorities and Christian mobs with the complicity of the empire. If you were labeled a heretic you could even be put to death. Many were. Of course no one would copy books labeled as heretical. That's how most of those books were lost. That's is why now we only have the fragments the Church fathers preserved in the books they wrote to condemn them. If books are not copied they just decay away. The Nag Hammadi manuscripts were preserved only because they were hidden, possibly to prevent their destruction, in a very dry environment. There are many more for which we have references in other texts but which have been lost. As for their authenticity, of course the Orthodox reject that they came from Jesus. Unsurprisingly that's also what their opponents said about the orthodox doctrines. What is clear from as early as the letters of Paul is that Christians were disagreeing over beliefs from the very beginning. Like Avalos said, there were many Christianities from the start and only through political maneuvering did one faction eliminate all the other ones.
Charles Darwin admitted that
The antagonist of the bible has a lot of choirs boys, the bible called them antichrist, yet still some of them become Christian and it frightening; Like Paul, Acts Chapter 9.
-???
Um excuse me mr god king who doesn't deserve to use such a name, but yes he did, maybe you need to do some research
Karianne Merritt You do not understand what research ,fact or evidence even means.
Excuse me, and mrs mankind
A flawed incompetent designer if there was ever any.
DAVID NO BODY ON THE EARTH CAN
NOT DESTROYEY THE WORD OF GOD
BECAUSE THE BIBLE IS TRUE! YALL ARE
DIGIN UP EVIL RELICS OF EVILNESS NO
BODY CAN NOT DESTROYEY THE BIBLE
THE WORD OF GOD I AM WHO I AM! EVERY THING PEOPLE READ IS THE
TRUTH! NO BODY CHANGE IT I MEAN
NO BODY! NOT EVEN THE ANGELS!🙂
Sorry but I am not inaccurate, I will just believe in the truth, and you can just keep ignoring it. That's fine with me
Karianne Merritt No you have not presented empirical evidence for your claims of truth.Truth is established fact only proven through Empirical evidence.
subtext: gay man with no math skills opts for Biblical Archaeology as a major, falls in love with his atheist professors and talks himself out of a job. On the other hand, gay waiter is looking good about now.
homophobic who pretends to be smart ends up being a christian.
+TheRoguePhysicist Physicist?! Yeah, right!
Oh I get it his argument is wrong because he's gay! You haven't proven your point but I get evolution now- Man has evolved past this way of thinking yet the troglodyte branch of continues to populate. To win an argument all they have to do is say "gay".
A flawed designer huh???! Well it was mr mankind that ruined that!!
Karianne Merritt You are religiously insane.
VITUPERATIONS???.......JEJEJEJEJEJ
@DrCraig711 " The reason that Muslim writings are consistent with Jewish writings is because they came from the same source."
They are not the same sorce. The quran affirmed a Torah and gospel but claim the ones during his lifetime were/were not truthful in their testimonial accounts of their own belief historically, and that we should discredit them as false.
Ironically, bibblical historical evidences we have and are finding agree with bible accounts overwhelmingly in comparison to qura.
Courtney Thompson The Torah ,Koran and New Testament are all Bigoted insanity from the Blood Sacrifice Cults of Abraham.
There are a lot of preaching and too much will bore you to death so worship and praise God, pray and enjoy music let the exciting experience of Salvation fill your soul and have a great family and friends times let life in Jesus Christ saturate you, too Earthly minded or too Heavenly minded will make you useless on Earth or in certain environment.
the man in hell wanted just a tip of water, while those in Heaven have the Best of everything,I have seen people who seems to have a lot and life is so mise for them, but the Jesus of the Bible promise good times for those who Believes that the Bible.
could you say that again in English? Also, what about thinking? Where does that fit in? Don't forget Santa Claus. God/Santa: he sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good.... Does that ring a bell?
15:13
That question carries the day everyday.
This guy is plain stupid unless he concedes that he is speaking for archaeology only
kop pite
Hector Avalos is the first Mexican to be awarded an MA and PhD from Harvard in Greek, Hebrew and Easten Religions...he has forgotten more than you about Theology..it us you who are dumb and self deluded!
Men create Gods and Religions!
It was a perfect world in the beginning until satan deceived like always, which he is obviously doing to you as we'll...yea I will believe in a creator because the evidence is there
Karianne Merritt You are either conscious of your deception or present a argument from ignorance because you present no empirical evidence .But it is obvious that you do not understand what the term empirical evidence actually means.
I agree with alot of what this guy says, but he's off on alot of actual data... Bart Ehrman (also an atheist) is far more knowledgeable and is the top scholar for the New Testament .. this guy is kinda like a side show..
16:58 cements this guy's stupidity.
it sounds good, but we all know it not true, only Jesus Christ is true.
There is no god but God and He is God. Allahu Akbar. Or is it Shiva. Or the Great Eagle. Or Sol Invictus.
Whoever God is, apparently he likes multiple choice tests, with eternal hellfire and damnation as the consequence for bad guesses, or God's Love and cherubs if you are lucky enough to he born in the right century and the right country, with parents in the right religion. It all makes sense in a coloring book kind of way.
I hope you are not allowed to be around children.
This is the most worthless talk i have ever seen, go work at McDonalds or something
+Nathan B Since you didn't give a reason why you think that, yours becomes the most worthless comment in this thread.
because it's a useless talk from a stupid atheist
+Nathan B
Dr Avalos has a PhD. from Harvard and is a professor of Religious Studies at Iowa State University and the author of several books about religion, Why would go work at McDonald's? Only uneducated Christians end up working at McDonald's
haha shows how duped you are
''haha shows how duped you are''
relying on actual evidence and real world historical and archeological data shows I'm not the one who is lying to himself
You atheist .... have your own logic,but you are still human and nice people. But just because 1+1=2 is a logic statement , it is enough evidence that GOD is there. Just keep working and waiting until we pass away then each one will get a final answer.
Old song, same story.
The final answer may well be, we no longer exist.
When you no longer exist, you may well say to me, in my non-existent state, "I told you so" because, in said state, we will both be devoid of knowledge, and neither of us will know we do not exist.
^
3=1 is also a statement of logic. It's a false statement and a statement made repeatedly by proponents of the Trinity.
john Caster You just talked nothing but either conscious deception or complete argument from ignorance.