Paul within His Hellenistic World: Understanding Cosmic Salvation
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- I love this interview hosted by Derek Lambert (@MythVisionPodcast), with David Litwa and me. It was such an honor to be with Litwa, who is without doubt one of our greatest current scholars on early Christianity, properly seen as part of the religion, culture, politics of the Hellenistic world. We mainly focus on Paul, but our discussion is wide-ranging, with lots of Q & A and Derek's delightful hosting...
Be sure and check out Litwa's new course "The Ancient Greek Mysteries & Christianity," produced by MythVisionCourses--it is fabulous. You won't regret it: mvp-courses.co...
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While you are at that web site check out my own course:
Creating Jesus--Why Mark's Gospel was Forgotten
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Such a great comment from Dr Tabor at 30m onward. Quoting another academic 'You couldn't swing a cat in the ancient world without hitting 20 or 30 spiritual beings '. And referencing his own youth with Pentecostal Evangelical inheritance; 'If your car didn't start the devil or demons had a hand in it'. A light went on in my brain. I grew up in similar background. There was a LOT of supernatural thinking and attributing all sorts of things to God or demons etc. If you are soaked in that millieu and brought up in it, there is absolutely no doubt it affects your thinking and writing. Also, thank you Dr Tabor for bringing this up; it just takes me back to forgotten things in my childhood. Helps me understand what weirdness I was brought up in and why I subsequently took religion far too seriously.
Ugh...I would hav love to watch this live! My Jewish Grandmother told me soon much growing up, I am grateful for her. I have been preparing for this almost 50 years here!🎉⬆️ We have been lied to about everything!
So much gratitude for all of you! What a relief!
This is definitely for the people that have ears to hear. Brilliant minds lov this!
'One person's religion is another person's magic' So true. Have often thought prayers are like casting spells.
Praying only benefits the person doing the praying, it makes them feel as if they are doing something when in fact all they are doing is talking to themselves, but for them, it feels great and it makes them feel as if they have achieved something.
Religions are 100% necessary, because without them the world would be in chaos, try and imagine what would happen if everyone believed there was no gods and no Judgement day?
Great interview. I’m finishing up Elaine Pagels, the Gnostic Gospels. There are some elements that contribute to this discussion. But what I’m really taken back is, just how broad and varied story is. As a deconstructed Xian, I had no idea how varied and deep the conversation. I think for Dr Tabors part, he made a great comment in that we really need to step back and look at the macro (way back) vs the micro (though the micro of course contributes heavily to the narrative). Big thank you!
Thank You all Very Much!
I wish I'd discovered this 25 years ago. Dr. Tabor, I would have done anything to be your student. I did get a PhD in English, but this... this is what I always really wanted. Your Mark course was great. I'll most certainly take more.
The best example of orthodoxizing Paul is when Dr. Tabor insists he said Satan is "the God of this world" .
Satan is entirely absent from the passage!
Yes its Derek 🎉 such a wonderful interviewer.
I like this way of talking about religious ideas as organic, that is, growing out of human developing human concepts, and not rising from the initiative of a god.
The concept of multiverses based on a 12D merkabic space was hard for even the best ancient prophets to grok, and is even to this day - which is why we are still suffering from so much scholarly dispute over spiritual truths even as the gap between science and spirituality closes.
Thanks for the double interview, Derek! These two have only convinced me more that Richard Carrier is right about the Jesus of the New Testament - that Paul did not base his Jesus on any historical Jesus and Mark euhemerised Paul's Jesus. If there was any historical Jesus Paul would definitely say that he was another Jesus despite claiming that his Jesus had brothers including the famous James, all of whom were still alive and kicking!
8:20 - 8:36 Dr. Litwa said, "Reading Paul in light of the Old Testament makes Paul already seem like he's isolated from the larger streams of Greco-Roman thinking." I think we have to put that idea to bed. After being shown the heavily Hellenized cities and synagogues (floor mosaics) and culture of the Galilee, Judaism wasn't hermetically sealed off, and compared to Judaism Paul was much more heavily influenced by Greco-Roman mystery cult and started his own cult. Jewish teachers like Rabbi Tovia Singer state and prove with evidence that Paul was lying about the Hebrew Scriptures, the Torah most especially, and undermining Judaism in general and I believe Nazorean Judaism in particular. We have inherited lies!
As for Hell Bound's question "Was Paul Gay?" Although Drs. Litwa and Tabor don't seem to think so, I think he was. There's recent scholarship on Philemon that brings in strong evidence he was. (Marchal, "The Sexual Use of Slaves and Philemon", in: _Journal of Biblical Literature,_ vol 130, no. 4 (2011))
Keep this up. We keep focusing on Paul. What do we have on Peter in the record. It dose not seem like much. You don’t find much on him on the internet lecture wise.
In the catholic theology in Europe they have always placed the Bible within the Ancient-Near-Eastern world. They call it according German tradition: Sitz im Leben Tradition, what is contextual research of the Bible within Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian and Hellenistic context.
Somewhere around 1:23:00 "becoming like gods" discussion, reminds me of Herbert W. Armstrong in the defunct Worldwide Church of God. He talked about the same thing.
13:00 Reitzenstein "English" translation -- assuming you can read the Greek & Latin passages mixed in
A lot of talk in this chat about what Paul and those of his milieu would think of the material composition of spiritual bodies. The consensus here seems to be that Paul considered ethereal bodies to be material in some sense (a "highly refined air" as Dr. Tabor says), or some other abstraction that we can't quite put a proper name to. Combining that thought with the notion that Earth is the lowest level below 7 higher heavens, and that beings on Earth were therefore lowly in Paul's view, this video has bridged the gap in credulity for Jesus From Outer Space for me.
I am a mythicist, but I do get hung up on Paul's reference to a physical body of Jesus. But after this chat, now I can see Paul believing in a Jesus made of some ethereal seed of David, who wasn't a lowly failure like other Earth messiahs, and therefore must have given his sacrifice on one of the higher planes (as Paul doesn't really know of a historic crucifixion event at all, he just knows Scriptures said it would happen, and he had his personal revelation, so he believes what he deduced from scripture, and it's his job to announce it).
And I know no one in the discussion is a mythicist, but every time I listen to Dr. Tabor and Dr. Litwa (among others), I hear more and more that makes me go, "Oh, mythicism is fully on the table. Nothing precludes it, and a lot of current scholarship (e.g. Walsh or Miller) may actually suggest it."
"Too many cooks spoil the broth" If all the pieces on a chessboard were Queens there would be no point to the game. Too many super heroes even in Marvel films takes away some of the awe. When everyone suddenly has superhero powers it waters-down the uniqueness and magnificence of a singular superhero. Which is why we are finite. We have a beginning and an end. In sharp contrast, God has no beginning or an end. So if I understood Dr. Litwa correctly we as humans would still be "miles and miles away from Paul." For some reason, I thought he was going to say God, but I agree, man will never attain to the glory and power of God or His Son. The angels haven't, so why would we? As an artist, I certainly hope we have the power to create things in the cosmic world:-) 🧚♀
" So if I understood Dr. Litwa correctly " - I'm not sure you did. Litwa points out that in Paul's time, his idea of deification is that he (and all Christians) will really become like Jesus, all of you equal with Jesus.
@@TheDanEdwards I understood what he said in regard to that.
Josephus : Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews XV:163
And for ourselves, we have learned from God the most excellent of our doctrines, and the most holy part of our law, by angels or ambassadors
👍 _!!_
Looking for Paul's ascent on Audible. Anytime soon?
In Deut. 33:2, it is written,
And he said, "Yahveh came from Sinai, and He rose up from Seir to them; He shined forth from mount Paran, and He came with ten thousands of holy ones; from His right hand, a fiery law for them."
וַיֹּאמַר יַהְוֶה מִסִּינַי בָּא וְזָרַח מִשֵּׂעִיר לָמֹו הֹופִיעַ מֵהַר פָּארָן וְאָתָה מֵרִבְבֹת קֹדֶשׁ מִימִינֹו אשֶׂדת לָֽמֹו
Regarding the phrase מרבבות קדש, "ten thousands of holy ones," Rabbi Avraham ibn Ezra wrote הם המלאכים, that is, "They are the angels." Furthermore, he says that the phrase אשֶׂדת ("fiery law") refers to the Torah [of Moshe] which was given באש וברק, "with fire and lightning" (cp. Exo. 19:16-18).
2 Corinthians 12:1-10 I don't see this passage as Paul relating his personal ascension. No matter how many times I read the passage I come to the same conclusion. The declaration appears [ to me ] a recounting of the personal experience of being associated with someone else who is or has ascended. I suspect the other individual has a foot in both dimensions. This would be akin to the Medjugorje visionaries, particularly Ivan, and their experiences with a supra living bring. Have Ivan come and interview. Tabor is a comma-cop, so he can critique Ivans' grammar.
It's depressing as hell, just for reference; but James should be getting way more views and likes. How many people consider themselves Christians in America? And considering the timing, well I just think more people would be curious about such things. Thanks guys.
I think most Christians respect authority more than they respect themselves.
Is Tabor an ancient history historian OR a Christologist theologian. Though I've NOT read any of his books (I only browsed through "The Jesus Dynasty"when it came out), I've definitely noticed through the course of the past few years of watching his videos that he has been INCREASINGLY focusing on the theology of Christology INSTEAD of the HISTORICITY or veracity of the historical identity of Jesus. It DOESN'T matter to HISTORIANS of this period of ancient times WHAT Paul or anybody else THOUGHT Jesus was; it only matters IF he was and WHAT he REALLY did to influence his time. The rest is mere MYTHstory we have to "cut through" to get to the truth.
and you’d be the minority opinion. He’s been talking about this more and more because the fans love it. This topic is exactly why many of us are interested in Paul in the first place.
@@dallingeis4570 then he oughta be a preacher not a teacher
@@richarddemuth7077I think his time to preach has come brother. If not now when? If not earned, who has earned anything?
Do u Wonder if Dr tabor is a believer or not ,? He seems to brake down a certain sect of time but does seem to have his later analogy to what he broke down just previously ?
"It DOESN'T matter to HISTORIANS of this period of ancient times WHAT Paul or anybody else THOUGHT Jesus was; it only matters IF he was and WHAT he REALLY did to influence his time. " - um, no. That not what historians do. Historians ask questions of the past and try to answer them. Tabor is a historian of the New Testament, both as a religious book and as a capsule of culture. His books attempt to answer questions about the NT and the culture in which it was born.
I feel if there are in fact levels in heaven there would be 12. It's the most logical conclusion. 12 apostles, 12 gates of heaven, it's a complete number, and even on earth we are governed by the number 12, 7 and 10 are also considered complete numbers but the number 12 seems to have special meaning. We live in a three dimensional world governed by length, width and height. Three is the square root of 12, and 12 is the square root of the 144,000 mentioned in the Bible. This is speculation at best but 12 seems the most logical conclusion. I agree with Dr. Tabor that Paul struggled with desires of the flesh. It may have even been as benign as needing to experience a release that just involved himself. It could be that his conscience was so fine-tuned that any form of sexual activity was deemed immoral and off limits, ergo, the constant battle within himself. I still have 30 minutes to go on this video so let's see what happens next:-) 🧚♀
One last thought on Paul. Before he was Paul he was Saul, a persecutor and killer of Christians. He no doubt had an active or normal sex life at that point in time. After he converted to Christianity there became a conflict in his mind regarding what is proper in the eyes of God in terms of morality. Which I feel is what created the conflict within himself. "...and to put on the new self, " He had a struggle with "the new self" versus his old self and carnal mind. He very much desired to please God and do what was right, but the weakness of the flesh kept him in torment and distress. "For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."
Lol "Religreligginsgeschiglige Schule" at 8:43
Paul was the first anti historical Jesus. He created a new Hellenistic and mythical version of Jesus.
Salam EBIONITES and PAUL understand I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN but in Paul's defense. Without the Christians Israel with a never became a NATION and the Balfour declaration would have never been signed. And then there would be no Six-Day war. So we can argue semantics but ALOH-O whomever to breathe about. THE WILL OF GOD I am a Essene Aramaic I am Hebrew levite follower of the WAY SALAM BROTHER AND MAY ALOH-O PROTECT YOU FROM ALL UNTRUTH
A Hellenistic world is a world void of Jewish laws.
Of course void of Jewish law, but as culture goes, throughout history there is melding (to a degree).
@@Larry30102 Tf does that mean?
The ebionites would have been appalled by the notion. Isaiah 43 explain that explicitly only one savior and that is ALOH-O/YAHWEH/ALLAH praise his name.. BUT! DOES SENT HIS SERVANTS TO SAVE .. Yahsu Muhammad Moses Abraham Elijah and the list goes on. Cosmic salvation was what was taught. By the Essene MASTERS YAHSU/YAHSUA SALAM BROTHER AND MAY ALOH-O PROTECT YOU B'NAI O
Hold On...to suggest Paul's thorn in the flesh ("pure speculation" -thanks for saying) was some sort of sexual temptation is way out of line.! Paul himself described it as a "messenger of satan". This must surely relate to all the suffering he describes at the hands of his accusers in this section of Corinthians. Chapter 11 sates "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." which resonates with the mystical theme you are addressing. Their evil accusations forced him to "speak as a fool" to defend his honor. There are lying and accusing spirits working their expressions through demonized souls. I have no doubt all three of you have encountered criticism of this sort in your careers. Our battle is spiritual in nature and Paul illuminates this truth here in II Corinthians in a powerful way.
Still beleive we have in act paul killing james
You would be not God but like God.
Another know-it-all who can't figure out how his microwave works.