The Problem With Lesbian Romance Novels
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- čas přidán 17. 02. 2024
- TLDW (too long, didn’t watch): have any writers of lesbian romance ever dated women before???
I totally misspoke at 24:44: the perks of LOVING a wallflower*
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- Something To Talk About review: open.spotify.com/episode/6qfa...
- Last Night At the Telegraph Club review: open.spotify.com/episode/0zhM...
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I hear you! I’m a straight woman author and take as much care in crafting interesting romances for my gay characters as my straight characters. Consider checking out my first series “Blood Moon: Book 1 of the Crescent Crown Saga” but especially “Hunter Moon: Book 2” bc that’s where I have POV from Monette. She is 💯 lesbian annd proud of it and has exes. Mona is a bookish Hermione type. In Hunter Moon she’s tasked with spying on her enemy who is also 💯 lesbian and they kinda have that love/hate toxic thing. Book 3 isn’t out yet but Mona’s love interest in that is a werewolf and more the butch/athletic and rough around the edges type. I hope it’s good for my readers. I noticed that f/f doesn’t get some of the overdone tropes for straight and m/m so I get to have fun with that, or twist those. The other thing I do specifically with CCS is that being gay isn’t really questioned in the general universe. It’s mostly set in New Orleans so it’s cool being out. There may be shitty anti-gay characters sometimes but the focus is on fantasy plot, not on sexuality as a conflict. I just wanted natural inspired representation with the characters.
where's that tweet that's like "the butchest lesbian that people can handle is a woman wearing a leather jacket"
@ville__ i love bean gay
@ville__ Your mother shouldn't have chosen to birth you
@@littlemissneverseenbean
Like you choose to be born stupid ?
"this is the butchest woman twitter can handle before they start getting scared" is a permanent fixture in my vocabulary
as a bi woman, so much of f/f romance reads like what straight women imagine when they say they wish they were gay so they could date me
Yes!!!!
this omg
I don't think straight women want to date women
My suspicion is that they are mostly written by women married to men, like most m/m books
@@zabmcauley5647I follow a lot of the authors of major sapphic romance. They’re often lesbians and bi women themselves. They’re just not trying to do more messy queer tragedy and give us something happy for once. Also, I’m a little offended at the idea if we don’t drag our characters through the mud or add heteronormative toxicity, that we lose queerness. As an aspiring author with a couple books in the making, my sapphic romance had the most joy but it’s because I needed to see that growing up. I think a lot of writers follow the old advice of write what you want to read. I don’t want to feel like they’re almost not gonna make it or do what some straight authors do which is make them abuse each other. Romance has different intentions. I think this era of sapphic romance is intended to be more light and uplifting. We’re being banned from bookshelves, I don’t need to add to the sadness. I hate toxic characters myself and don’t endorse love that is unhealthy. That’s my take. I think we’re in normalization and escapist mode.
I always feel like lesbian romances lack chemistry, passion. It's like the characters are totally desexualized. Like I get we're fighting against oversexualization from men. But there's got to be a balance, a place where we can have it for ourselves.
@ville__a great choice
Exactly. The erasure of female desire is so glaring. Women tend to have less sex drive than men usually, but that doesn't make us sexless amorphous hyperemotional beings.
You know those viral booktok novels with the bad writing and predatory power dynamics? I want to read that but they're lesbians. That's it that's all I'm asking for!!!!! Where is my food?!!?!
@@freshbread4039 currently working on a lesbian vampire novel atm with butch/fem rep, lots of questionable content, and lesbians who have sex and have fun doing it
@@freshbread4039 i'm a bi writer who writes sapphic Fantasies and my main character, nadia, she's pretty possessive. As well as pretty much all my other characters who are more in control of their relationships 😅 but ofc, in the more feminine, female way as I am a woman myself 😅😅😅
“people are so scared of the word lesbian” is so true. i’ve recently come out and had to course correct people who insist on /only/ referring to me as queer/gay. i have zero problem with those words/labels but at the end of the day i AM a lesbian. i think that’s also part of what turns me off of a lot of f/f romance books, because even if both the characters are identified as lesbians the author seems to make a conscious choice to avoid saying the word “lesbian” at all costs.
lesbian is not a dirty word. it’s a word with an immense amount of history and something that i and many others are extremely proud to label ourselves as.
A bit of a weird question, but if the story is set in a fantasy setting where the island of Lesbos and Sappho herself didn't exist, does it still make sense to call gay women 'lesbians'?
@@Flufux honestly that’s a good question. imo, that’s the kind of thing that i would leave up to the individual author. personally i would probably still use the word lesbian, so i would say that it really depends on the author lol, if that makes sense? id be interested to hear other thoughts on this bc i’ve never really thought about that before!
@OfficerZ637 actually my dad and i are very close, thanks for this input though!
In my opinion there are many words (not only in english, but in all languages) which are connected to historical events, culture and even just come from another language that didn't exist in a fantasy world, so if we applied this logic, we should create a completely different one to write a book. Then for me, there aren't any cons for using the word 'lesbian' but it depends on an author
@Flufux I think bc its a defined word that it would still exist like how greek/Latin based words still exist in fantasy worlds even tho Greece wouldn't have.
Although if it's hardcore worldbuilding I'm all for authors creating new languages/words as long as it's done well lol, but just depends on what type of world building the author is going for
I think a big issue that a lot of these characters are just “gay for you”. They don’t have a lesbian identity because they were straight up until the book relationship and if something happened to the other woman in the relationship they would go back to dating men. I could be wrong though
Oooh this is so true!!!
someone else mentioned it but it fits the idea of straight women saying “i hate men why can’t i just be attracted to women” and bisexual women being like “i hate MEN why do i have to be attracted to them and not just be a lesbian ughhh 🙄” since it fits the idea that it can happen at any time. and i speak as a bisexual femme myself.
I've definitely known lesbians that have had that kind of fantasy, and wonder if these books are supposed to speak to that, but more who would have trouble trusting someone who was just "gay for her."
@@tsuki3752huh? This doesn’t even make any sense?
@ville__spam
As a feminine woman who is only attracted to feminine women, these books still bore me and feel fake. Genuinely don't know who it's pandering to unless it's straight people.
same here. I do like myself a femme femme couple because i can put myself into their shoes. But it still feels very much straight coded which is upsetting. I hope that this genre gets more love in the following years and everyone can find their gem :3
I agree, I’ve never felt represented by a femme character in lesbian novels. They always feel so unqueer and flat 😭😭😭
@ville__ stfu why would you go into an obviously queer space to comment homophobic shit
......I like the books and I’m not straight. Maybe you have to like the romance genre too or the tropes and all just don’t do it for you
@ville__ get a life.
Great video! What also annoys me is the lack of sexual tension and sex scenes, it's almost like they're all written for children or their audience is the catholic church. where are the butches, where are the proud lesbians, where are the morally grey gays, where are the weird eccentric artsy lesbians, where are the a bit controversial but fun stories and characters?? why does falling for a girl has to be an "accident" in all of these books? every lesbian romance that i read is indeed forgettable and plain uninteresting.
TRUEE
As much as I agree on the lack of diverse characters, and am sick of reading the same type of people etc, regarding your first point yeah maybe those books are "writtent for children or religious people whatver" Or... could it be possible that they are written for ... biromantic / homoromantic audiences and generally speaking for yk, asexual people ?? It's actually hard to find a dynamic between two women that doesn't revolve around sex, and instead focuses on the romance part (yk, the feelings of affection, love, that kind of stuff).
@@sketchbookstour i feel like if they were directed to that type of audience it would or should be specified that the characters are asexual for example and most of the times it's not, so they don't offer asexual representation or awareness while also giving a very infantilised "pure" depiction of lesbians. It is just weird to depict two adult women who usually had described sexual relationships with men in the past and when they're with a women to act like sex doesn't exist?? I feel like lesbian movies are too focused on the sexual parts while the books totally ignore the sexual aspect for no reason. i agree that there should be media for asexual audiences but there should also be lesbian media that isn't afraid to actually show lesbians like they are in real life.
I feel like I'm reading different books than you people, because I read exclusively F/F romance, not any other genre, I probably read over 600 + books in this genre and most of them have at least one sex scene, often whem they don't it's either because it's YA ( I don't read many of those because teens are tiring), authors doesn't actually write sex scenes.
@@bluester7177Ya authors are writing sex scenes. Between teens it’s not uncommon at all.
But like do you know the difference of passionate sex scenes or do you think there existences disproves the criticism.
Because it certainly doesn’t. Sexless sex exists. As nonsensical as it sounds.
I'm also annoyed that when there is a butch or masculine in these stories, they're ALWAYS the love interest, never the mc. Like c'mon, I love fems and am gender non-conforming, so I just end up reading fem-for-fem novels, 'cause there's never anything from a butch-for-fem perspective.
I think maybe because there's a lack of butch romance writers and most people write from their pov?
@@sainttheresetaylor2054 This, and I was just reading through the comments thinking about this and realizing--I think part of it is that it is vanishingly hard to be both a primary breadwinner and a writer? And not at all saying there aren't exceptions, but I think a lot of us are more likely to be in households that *require* us to keep our day jobs until we can exceed them through other income streams? And hahaha, good luck matching a programmer or electrician's pay *before* you stop working those hours. We've got advantages in career paths, but they're going to result in fewer butch/GNC women or lesbian-identified nonbinary people who ever finish a novel.
I grew out of the "oh, romance is only for silly girls" stuff decades ago, but the only way I'm ever publishing a novel at this point is after I retire. Even outside of romance, I think this explains why a very certain sort of woman is overrepresented in the writing community, and she looks nothing at all like me.
Try New Ink on Life by Jennie Davids. It alternates POV equally between a butch lesbian and a femme/futch lesbian. CW: cancer, tattoos, needles
Read D’vaughn and Kris plan a wedding. They’re both lesbian and one is plussize and the other is butch and they’re both of color
it’s because most of these writers aren’t lesbian and think the butch/masc lesbian is the “man of the relationship” they write a straight romance but just replace the characters with generic queer people and label it as f/f
the absence of fat and butch or otherwise gnc lesbians so glaring it’s insane. other types of media are honestly even worse about it than f/f romance novels tbh
also a lot of the feminine characters don’t even read like actual femme lesbians or bi women. i feel like they engage w gender without any nuance or complexity in a way that makes them basically indistinct from feminine cishet women.
@@AverySometimesReads this part EXACTLY!!! the way these feminine female characters don't embody anything like the queer femininity that real life lesbians and people in lesbian communities/dating circles embody is so discordant
YES the complete lack of gender nonconformity is a massive massive problem for me in any f/f media. femmes im happy for y’all but i’m gnc and am sick to DEATH of exclusively seeing femme4femme romance in f/f work. it feels like the writers are constantly putting queer experiences through a filter of safe conventional femininity
@@AverySometimesReads probably because it’s bad for marketing. A lot of people that are not lesbian or queer assume that the ideal lesbian romance is between two feminine women. A butch is essentially portrayed in fiction as a man with female pronouns in mannerisms and descriptors, so it’s not much different from a straight romance novel (depending on whether the author is skilled enough to make a distinction between butch and male character styles.)
@@AverySometimesReadslike literally. I sometimes wonder if any of these writers know that being femme doesn't mean that's your entire personality trait. People can be fairly different even tho they are feminine.
For me personally a major issue I run into with lesbian romances is that it feels like the women in them arent allowed to be real. They cant exist in a larger community and they can't be masc, they can't voice that they want to have sex with women and they can't exist as anything outside of a very clean neat version of lesbian. Not to mention that a good chunk of them focus on white middle class women. Thats just completely alienating to me bc no one I know is like that. I also prefer to read litfic featuring lesbians bc it feels like the people writing that allow their lesbian characters to feel like real women who can be messy and butch etc etc
yes these characters just do not feel real and the embody an "ideal" concept of a lesbian rather than the messiness of lesbians' humanity. Totally understand your preference for litfic in this regard. Romance tends to flatten characters as a genre structure into that idealized form IMO
@@thea4676 Op literally never mention men in their comment tho. You're reaching
@@insertnamehere7498 calm down. i accidentally replied to comment instead of as a comment on the video
I agree so much especially if its to do with the intersectionality of other identities such as being an Asian queer woman or an atheist non-binary sapphic person its difficult to find representation of other aspects of the sapphic community. Also the fact its hard to find it online unless you actively search for it too:((
Absolutely agree with you, it's so annoying and also boring, it's like by reading one lesbian romance book you've kind of read them all cuz the next one will basically be the same.
Do you have any specific litfic recommendations featuring lesbian romances? I love litfic but dont know a lot of books that feature lesbian characters :)
as a bi woman, i think authors choose to only portray these wlw stories through bi characters because they like the idea of self discovery and finding out "you like something new", but i don't think that's a great picture of bissexuality either because it makes it seem like our sexualities start as one thing and then expand to another. i too would enjoy a novel composed by a couple of two lesbians or a story that has a more realistic view on bissexuality
i agree with what u said also u cute whats ur insta
I'm bi and had crushes on girls first, but had no idea they were crushes due to the way I was socialized. I thought for years I was straight, and then for years I thought I had liked guys first and my interests had expanded over time. I've only come to an accurate understanding of my sexuality (which has always been toward all genders) very recently, and I'm in my late twenties. I do think there's a real element of self discovery to a lot of bi women's stories, but it's not liking something new per se, it's realizing you misinterpreted your past experiences and learning how to accurately see yourself and what you want out of dating and/or sex.
You hit the nail on the head. It fits in with YA as a genre too (coming of age, self discovery, new experiences, finding independence, etc)
Yeah discovering identity is a great trope but they do it so badly. And lesbians can go through a discovery process as much as bi women can. I think these books hugely oversimplify it though, like you meet one special women and then you just know, but really it's so much more complex than that.
A lot of lesbians struggle with comphet and most bisexuals go through so many years of inner conflict, deliberation, and anxiety to find their identities.
For instance I knew I was bi as a child and came out as a teen but had such backlash from family and a bad breakup from my first gf that I developed a trauma response of becoming nauseous whenever I would kiss a girl and thought this meant I was straight.
So I told people I'd been wrong, that I wasn't bi I was straight. And I believed this for most of my 20s until I learned about psychosomatic trauma responses and realized I was bi after all and came out again in my 30s.
All this could make a great book and even be funny at times, but it's more complex than a lot of publishers think readers will tolerate and they want something simplistic.
@@justrachel4496 You said this so, so, so beautifully!!! I didn't figure out that I'm bi till I was 24, realizing that my interpretations of feelings toward girls were way off base and I'm actually attracted to them in a romantic way. It's not just "suddenly, she's a lesbian." It's "suddenly, she realized she has always been bisexual." I am incredibly hurt by the number of people in this comment section describing bi women who fall for a woman unexpectedly as "straight until they met the lesbian character." Incredibly biphobic and uncaring toward so many of our experiences as bi women in this fucked-up world. And bi women who mainly date men are valid, too!!!! So while I can totally appreciate the original commenter above feeling frustrated that bisexuality is typically portrayed as a new discovery/expansion of identity when that hasn't been their experience, I also dislike the use of the phrase "a more realistic view on bisexuality." My experience is just as realistic and valid as a bisexual's who has known their whole life. We both need representation. I'm always looking for novels that feel accurate to my experience as a bisexual woman and I feel like the majority of adult wlw fiction has underlyng issues with biphobia or just thinks all wlw are lesbians. The main issue here is just needing wider representation and a greater breadth of wlw literature to choose from. The current state of wlw literature hurts all of us. We could all benefit from publishers simply investing in more diverse content.
I read a LOT of fanfiction and man it is so hard to find any lesbian media where it feels like the characters actually want to be together. The sexual tension, nonexistent.
😂 My saving couple was korra and Asami the authors writing aboug then did the research fir the Smoth lol
I KNOWWW 😞😞 It saddens me
If you go to the library or pay for lesbian novels directly from queer women, you’d probably have a better experience. It kind of bums me out that people are always complaining about literature but don’t support career writers or people who go through publishing to have a higher degree of editing done to produce good romance
the worst thing is when a man also takes place in the love story. I feel like some writers really CANNOT write a wlw book without adding a man to make it more 'interesting'
Yes! Like Rosewater, I hated the fact that even in a lesbian romance a guy was so central, it felt lazy
@ville__
@ville__ 🤣
Maybe it's an audience thing. I assume the core audience for romance novels is straight women. Straight women will sometimes read lesbian romances, but they want to be able to project themselves into the characters, so they can't be "real" lesbians.
@ville__bro is a loser
the way i gagged when you said that's why we dont have a female grinder, lmao, like SPEAK ON IT
Bahahahh
HER is pretty good as a dating app geared toward women/femmes/afab ppl (basically anyone but cis men)
@@sophie3869 femmes can be cis men, no?
@@sainttheresetaylor2054
sure but they aren't usually referred to as such
the name for a lesbian dating app is scissr (I can finally use this joke)
as a bisexual reader, it ALSO bothers me when sometimes a male character will still take center stage in a romance for women. like GET A JOB, STAY AWAY FROM HER
What if he's played Aaron Tveit? Or Andrew Garfield? Or Lee Pace?😅
@@juliannehannes11 Andrew Garfield… i trust him, he can stay
This is so not the point but can we talk about how Darcy in Written in the Stars is characterized as a very smart and STEM oriented person but she didn't know that the moon doesn't produce its own light
Stop this is so funny 😭😭
Fully agree, as a butch woman, it's so weird when a "butch" character suddenly puts on makeup or a dress at the end because it feels like authors are doing it to appease straight readers. But honestly, I don't know who they're making these femme/femme books for because as a butch, I may in theory be attracted to the characters, but I can't relate at all to the story when they hit you over the head with the fact that they're both wearing heels or something equally cringe-worthy. I think what's tough too is that I end up rating them higher on Goodreads or Storygraph despite my better judgement because I fear that rating any lesbian novel too low will lead to less being published. We're constantly being asked to accept the bare minimum.
Thank you for watching & commenting!! I totally agree that a lot of this is to appeal to straight audiences. There’s such minimal chemistry between the women in many of these novels for sure
UGH as a butch it always breaks my heart when a gender nonconforming character suddenly puts on makeup for a big makeover scene or a fancy party. I can count the number of genuine butches I've read about in contemporary fiction on one hand (fantasy/sci-fi sapphics are more likely to be allowed to be gnc but that's a different situation entirely) and it's so saddening. even the femme lesbians don't even feel like lesbians, they feel like straight girls being forced to kiss for an audience.
>I don't know who they're making these femme/femme books for
Uh... not every lesbian couple fits into the butch/femme stereotype... there are many femme/femme couples and lesbians who are femme that are attracted to other femmes. Lesbian romance books do have a lot of problems but this is such a weird take. You can say you want more butch characters or butch/femme romances (valid things to want!!) without acting like femme/femme ones are unrealistic or not wanted.
@@satinsleevesI'm totally aware of that! I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I was echoing what Sunny said in their video about how a lot of these books aren't made for lesbians, but are made to appease straight people. They're shoehorning random tidbits about how a character is wearing heels or putting on lipstick in a place where it doesn't add to the story at all in order to remind the reader that these are feminine presenting people and it's awkward/bad writing. So these femme/femme relationships aren't even serving femmes who like femmes either because they're not making them for you, which is really frustrating. I am on your side. I don't think it's fair to be calling me "weird" for writing a brief comment (which doesn't allow for nuance) that is a direct response to something specific that Sunny mentioned in their video.
As n not-really-feminine woman who grew up in a conservative area being told that I would eventually grow up and be feminine, I'm so fucking tired of this trope. Like, can't we have female characters who aren't feminine be treated as normal women who don't need to be fixed?
As a lesbian who rarely finds compelling lesbian or f/f romance books, I think the main issue is that the characters and stories are boring. They’re not real people with real identities and lives. I get much more joy out of lesbian fanfiction than novels because I can connect with the characters before they’re romantically involved at all.
edit: thank u for the likes omg!! i wanted to add onto my comment after reading some other comments; i agree that there is a severe lack of diversity in these books. Most of the lesbian books i can think of right now are basically glorified straight, and usually white, women who happen to get with a girl. and they’re all extremely femme, *maybe* one getting shorter hair or pants, very wild. a good deal of them (not all but just from the ones i have read) read as nearly a straight romance just with another girl, leaving out the unique complexities that come from queer relationships.
Fanfic for the win once again.
@@gem9535 always staying on top 😙😙
I NEED some lesbian fic recs please 🙏
@ville__ eiks sul oikeesti oo mitään harrastusta irl
Basically, the conventions of romance novels are the conventions of bad writing. Good romance novels CAN be written, but they're very, very rare. Good LESBIAN romance novels? Good luck!
As a Black Lesbian, Honey Girl was really refreshing to me because the main character was her own person outside of the relationship! Which you earlier in the video talked about a lack of! I find it so frustrating that people always hate on it for not being a romance novel but it doesng have to be! As a Black lesbian I feel like we should all care about the internal feelings and narratives of Black lesbians because let's be so real that doesn't happen very often (like ever). It disappointed me a little that you wrote it off as "something you didn't give a fuck about" but that is your opinion which is fine.
is honey girl les/les ?
I’m confused why she kept commentary on that book in this video bc she literally goes on to say she mis-categorized it as a romance when technically it’s a literary fiction so it was never going to primarily focus on the romance story arc 👀 and I can see why it would be disheartening bc it was the only book with a black character on the cover all the books shown were white people so yeah idk I hear your frustration with its inclusion in her video
I was also ready to make my defense for Honey Girl! To me, the book was mainly about transitioning to a new part of life, conquering the unknown, recognizing fears and last traumas ect... not a romance novel. I do feel like it was marketed that way, but that's not what the book as like at all. And I also enjoyed the sire characters in Honey Girl.
I loved honey girl sm! It’s a fantastic adult coming of age and gets such a bad rap.
samee i actully read that book bc as a black women i was getting tired of all the white characters. I will say i love her self exploration and really figuring stuff out but i wish there was more ig chemistry and attraction with the love intrest half the time i couldnt even tell if she was attracted to her and assume that she contacted her to divorce because it just sounded so dull (the romance part and their spark in general).
Even if the romance was like a subplot (which i wasnt aware at the time, and probably affected my opinion of the book) I wish there was more passion
All these books are just. Conflict free. There’s little conflict between other characters. The main relationship is always perfectly healthy and communicative but not in an interesting way, just in a normal way. You don’t need to make a relationship toxic to make it interesting, but I’d love some spice. The dark side of dating women. The clinginess, the insta-love, how mean they can get, the jealousy (sometimes of each other). These are kind of unique to wlw relationships and I want them to be explored more.
I hope when your people get your way I can still find the conflict free books, because I love them and that's the only thing I read, I just want to read some slice of life with a cute couple.
Omg yes for the jealousy (sometimes with each other) I think it’s such an interesting part of dating women
agreed 100% - so many “lesbian romance novels” don’t accurately capture the lesbian experience and many don’t even feature lesbian characters (let alone masculine & gender-nonconforming lesbians) :( also authors being afraid to even use the word “lesbian” is so cowardly…
Exactly! Thank you for watching ❤
Bisexual romances are valid too, not necessarily well written, but valid. Also, many lesbians have male exes- having tried to date men does not make you straight or bi.
@@youareherediversity7321 thats true, but the issue is when basically EVERY lesbian romance is written with bisexual/women who have had relationships with men in their past. Its fine to represent that dynamic, but when its basically the only dynamic we get, thats q problem.
@@geekygecko1849 absolutely, we need diversity! Elizabeth Simms’ Lillian Byrd stories are great- but whilst there is romance in them- they are definitely not romances.
Cowardly? You mean inclusive?
OKAY SO REAL! every romance i read im like serious question to the author: have you ever had lesbian sex??? or are you just “how do i talk to girls 🥺🥺 they’re so pretty”
Yeppppp
LOL
Lol so lesbians who haven’t had sex can’t write books then?
the "I'm attracted to all women and 000.1 men" "step on me mommy" "women are so intimidating" types 😶🌫
@@gwencere9383 and then the girls that say that kind of stuff exclusively date men lol (in my experience at least)
Desaxualised girly saphics is also a big problem in visual media. Lesbians for a long time where mostly banished to childrens cartoons.
and manga
desexualised women in manga? Really /curious @@yurifairy2969
real. luckily gl has plenty of fucking
11:43 they're not comfortable with the bisexual label either. they're comfortable writing bisexual characters but not comfortable stating they're bisexual. bi erasure is as much of a problem as lesbian erasure. also, a lot of bi women characters don't feel that queer to me, compared to actual bi women i know ....
edit: i agree with everything else you're saying like the lack of butches and sexual tension -_- where's the genderqueer lesbians ?!?
Yess you're so right... I mean, is it really too much to ask, to get a few lesbian romances where you actually feel the sexual tension? Why is everyone so afraid of showing real raw lesbian desire?🤨 it's the same in Movie and shows too...
Yeppp! Thank you
This. There's this kind of TERF-y discourse of "uwu WLW relationships are so pure and sweet and unburdened by sex not like those awful aggressive and lustful menfolk" like NO. I want to have Weird Nasty Sex with a woman and I want to feel the sexual tension in my F/F couple.
If they are just cutesy and sweet and gentle it feels like friendship to me. It feels like settling down with a person that you only like as a friend because you have no other option, not because you're really into them.
thats why i loved the handmaiden despite it being kinda problematic. those two thirsted after each other big time hahhaa
@kajamiletic3223 this happened to me today, I was watching this show from Max "The s3x Lives of College Girls" and the straight scenes are sooo different from the sapphic scenes. Plus, I hate that they always want to put a lesbian with a guy
@373816hannah fr, that's my fv lesbian movie
As a bisexual woman I totally get why the representation of a lesbian main character is so important, because I feel exactly the same! I want to see myself in the main character which is why I mostly read books with a bisexual main character. And honestly I was so surprised when finding out that the amount of main characters that identify, openly and proudly as lesbian are so few! That really needs to change! Usually it is a lesbian love interest in the sapphic books I’ve read but sadly that means we as the reader do not get to know that character as well as the main character.
I find it hard to find good bisexual representation in queer books but for all lesbians it is an even harder battle. Aswell as the amount of butchlesbians in books are pretty much non-existent. It truly is so upsetting that a part of the community isn't acknowledged in the sapphic books we have to choose from.
Thank you ❤
“We as the reader do not get to know that character as well as the main character” THIS!!! This is my biggest issue with the f/f romance I’ve tried to read!! The love interest always seems to be held at arms length and aren’t really made… human almost?? They never really seem to have personalities, they’re just hot, lol. And I can’t get into a romance if I’m not emotionally invested in both characters
Lol why were you so surprised in finding out that books with lesbian protagonists are rare?
@@anais3337this was a hugeee problem in the holiday trap by Roan Parrish :/
@@anais3337Good point! You might like New Ink On Life by Jennie Davids and Stars and the Blackness Between Them by Junauda Petrus.
Both alternate between first person narration by the two love interests, so you get to know both characters equally.
New Ink is about a Latina butch lesbian and a yt femme/futch lesbian. They are both out and proud, have ex-gfs, and are very entrenched in queer community. Most of the supporting characters are also lesbians.
Stars is about two Black teen lesbians, who are kind of femme but not girly. One is a little nerdy and has an ex-gf but is closeted for safety. The other is more granola and has an ex-bf she didn't like and is exploring queer identity before they meet.
f/f is such a wide and general genre that i don’t think it’s fair to call any book that doesn’t feature a butch x femme dynamic is immediately not “good”. lesbian love and relationships come in many form and i think it’s important to explore all types of that. it’s true that i don’t see enough butch rep in the f/f genre and that’s something that needs to be fixed, but saying femmexfemme romances are “bad” or “unrealistic” is just untrue and entirely subjective.
also, that assertions that f/f relationship where both people are bi/pan is “unrealistic” has to be anecdotal. maybe in your experience that’s the case. maybe, as you said, you’re femme4butch, you prefer that kind of couples in your romance. but to say that it’s unrealistic is objectively not true. i know plenty of women that are bi and are dating and heavily committed to a bi partner. i myself am a femme bi woman committed to another femme lesbian. the queer community is diverse. that’s the beauty of it. to narrow you’re definition of what is a good lesbian romance by listing certain criteria it needs to hit or otherwise be deemed invalid by your definitions hurts the genre and the community rather than helps. it may be your preference, but that doesn’t mean it’s everyone’s. that. being said, i too love a good femme x butch romance, and i wish there were more. let’s hope the selection for f/f romances keep growing. i do also agree with the sexual tension thing. it’s unfortunate.
big agree u just said everything i wanted to say better
as a lesbian, I always feel so guilty for having most of my OTPs being gay boys couples instead of lesbians. Like, in the moment, I might be even more excited for the f/f relationship to unravel but a few days later I don't remember them. I have such a little list of lesbian couples that I'm obsessed with and almost none of them are from books. I literally am always ashamed because it kinda feels like I am not a proper lesbian but I can't just pretend to enjoy a romance when it's simply not good. Even after watching videos like this I feel like something is missing. I just don't know how, but some stories are just done right. Like the manga "the guy she was into wasn't a guy at all" IS SO GOOD!! I guess maybe partly because I associate myself with the tomboyish main character, but it feels like there's something more to it
i feel this so much! i even doubted my own identity as a nb butch lesbian as if liking a lot of m/m couples invalidated that??? Somehow?? But that’s bullshit, and i hope we both find peace and security in calling ourselves lesbians because we get to decide how to label our feelings and experiences
@@cryingsobbingetc.9878 thank you for recommendations, I will definitely check them!
I'm currently also watching a drama "she loves to eat and she loves to cook" and even though it's a SLOWWW BURNNN and it doesn't have many hot moments or "chemistry", I'm enjoying it so much. Characters just feel authentic and I love that they have something they both love! Also, they're not scared of a word "lesbian" and they discuss asexuality and just different ways of being a lesbian really.
But yes, most of the time it just feels lik lazy writing. Many times I just thought about how cool a bl story would be if both guys just turned to be girls/nbs!😭 Like, if you know, the manga/anime "Moriarty the patriot" lowkey has that pairing of Sherlock and Moriarty - I LOVE THEM BUT GOD WHY CAN'T IT BE YURI?? And it's just one example, but just what a gem it would be for yuri community
I think its also hard when there's a lot of discourse around how straight women love m/m romance and it feels like a weird fetishization thing that then as a queer woman it feels weird to also have m/m pairings as my otps, but they are just straight up better written, of course we like complex characters with realistic relationships more!
Maybe is because woman tend to not be all the tropes as much man lets say.
Even if I am one, usually I tend to like man or weird creature more than woman because they can be weird, dumb, grotesque etc. or because I relate more.
I am also more a "masculine/androgenous one" maybe thats affect too.
Or perphaps we cant see woman/femimnitys as interessing as man/masculinity, which is really sad.
@@platinumg.8614 I'm not sure how to explain it, but I think there's also the fact that we mostly dislike men or we don't care about them in real life?
Like, women are genuinely goddesses for me. Everyone has such interesting hobbies, different opinions on stuff, everyone is beautiful in their own way. While men are 99% kinda boring due to their own masculine boxes, you know? It's far more rare to meet a man crocheting than a woman who likes, say, car mechanics.
And I feel like because of that it's difficult to add something new to a fictional woman? Like WE/THEY are ALREADY close to perfect, it's difficult to think of ways to make women even more interesting so we just see something usual = boring for "screen". Whereas men, due to their dullness in real life, appear far more exciting because it's the opposite of what we are used to. Like 99% of all those "neutrally moral men with sad storylines" are the archetypes I usually meet among women irl.
I'm not sure if I managed to explain what I think but yeah
As a bi woman, I was kind of surprised to hear that it's more common to hear the word bisexual than the word lesbian in f/f romance novels since a lot of mainstream media will almost always say something like "love doesn't have labels" or "I'm fluid" instead of bi.
yeah! I rarely see the word bisexual in these books, and I've read most of the books she's talking about hahaha
@ville__ if it was, most women would be gay
I don’t think she’s saying the word itself is more common, but that the bisexual/pansexual identity is more common than a character who identifies as a lesbian
@@sidbar11 ah, that makes sense
Yeah like I can name barely 4 books with bi/bi romances! I agree most f/f books have bi/lesbian couples but it's still so rare to see bi people get together. I especially enjoy seeing a bi guy and bi girl or bi nb person and another bi person get together, that's just such a better dynamic for m/f romances.
Could the whole Femme/Femme deluge be some misguided attempt to avoid the old stereotype of every lesbian relationship having 'the man' and 'the woman'?
i don't accept that excuse from people who claim to care about the lesbian community bc if you DO care and understand butchfemme dynamics they you should know that butchfemme have very little to do with heteronormative m/f dynamics. it just seems that way to people who only fathom butchfemme dynamics in a heteronormative context
I feel like you misunderstood the first comment. The terms “butch”, mask lesbian, lipstick lesbian etc are very american fraces and are not that widely used in other countries. For example I live in sweden, I am bi and my girlfriend is a lesbian who dresses quite masculine. Even so, she isn’t considered a “masc lesbian” other than as a joke since those terms are more friquently used as a way of making fun of the way americans seem to categorize every queer person into almost satire versions of them. Here in sweden, and in europe, we don’t considere queer people as a “type” of lesbian since we view gender expression as something more fluent that can change depending on place, ocasión and time. Rather than giving each individual a “personality typ” from the way they dress, move, act etc. And we find it very strange when people do so, and even a bit heteronormative. For example throughout my 2 year relationship both me and my girlfriend have changed styles, and with that, been more “masculine” presenting or “feminine” presenting. Even so our relationship dynamic has never been affected by it and we have never changed the terms vi associate with. I get that in america it probably is a big part of the queer community and that is good for u! But concidering a more fluid view on gender expression and lesbian relationships, as something that doesn’t represent the reality, is simply wrong. We have a big queer community and i’ve grown up with a lot of queer people, and it hasent been demolished by us not using excessively categorizing terms to describe us. At the end of the day we are just people who love people, nothing more or less. That said, ofc it is normal to have preferences for more masculine presenting or feminine presenting people but we simply don’t use terms to categorize us.
@@frante0 There are a shocking, and depressiving, number of younger lesbians who don't get this bit.
@@marianiemi2660And you so obviously don’t understand anything about Butch/Femme lesbians. To say that it’s weird and heteronormative just because it’s something you’re not used to or something that isn’t very common where you’re from, is honestly so gross.
@@undercoverfangirl5491 Go ahead and explain the differences then? As a lesbian you probably don't know a lot about what it feels like to be in a m/f dynamic because that is very different to what media portrays so honestly a bi people that are into butches are the only ones who could really speak on this.
As a fellow lesbian, I’m not sure I agree with your assertion that most f/f couples are both lesbians, or that lesbians mostly date other lesbians…. That hasn’t been my experience. I think out of the pool of women who date women, a good percentage of them, if not majority, are bi/pan. Also, lesbians can have male exes. So I’m not really bothered by that trope in particular, and I do think it’s good that bi and pan women are getting representation, especially when historically so many lesbians HAVE been biphobic. I’m only 6 minutes in so far and I have a feeling I’ll agree with you on the rest of this video bc there is DEFINITELY a problem with lesbian rep, especially with the lack of butch/masc characters…. but I just wanted to share my thoughts and throw that out there
@ville__ ….. okay. I choose it then.
I agree with your thoughts 100% (im bi but found that kind of 🤔)
Thank you for saying this.
I was thinking about this too, although I am bi so I could be biased (no pun intended). 57% of the queer community is bi and 14% are lesbian, so there are at least twice as many bi women as lesbians. I know a lot of bi women are dating men, but surely plenty of bi/bi and bi/lesbian couples exist as well, considering 2/3 of the queer women dating pool are bi?
@@justrachel4496 Do you have a source for those percentages? Is there a breakdown by age? Sorry, it doesn't seem credible.
Bi and pan representation is great, but I totally agree about the lack of lesbians. A lot of these books have a character who always gives the vibe of "my ex was a boy and I'm kind of like over boys lemme try a girl". And then if the ex makes an appearance, he's either a himbo puppy dog or the biggest jerk ever who like ran over her dog and crap
I know that it's not the point of the video, and I definitly agree with your opions on lesbian romance, but "I feel like I'm reading fanfiction better than this" hit me so hard! I've been reading so many traditional published romances that I have no idea how anyone thought it was good enought to publish? It's starting to drive me insane!
Exactly!!!
Honestly, a LOT of fanfiction is better than published novels 😅😂😂. Like, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of bad fanfic out there! But there is a LOT of good stuff too
The answer is almost always authors born into privilege or nepotism. It's honestly depressing when you start looking at the backstories of authors and realise *how many* of them are upper middle class and higher, who just fancied being a writer like a fun hobby, because they can afford to do a job that doesn't need to pay the bills, and they have the connections and disposable income to easily make it happen. Talent and ability or even having something interesting to say, rarely factor into it, sadly.
@@rhythmandblues_alibithis is really it honestly. i remember wondering how some people published so young or blew up on social media with their books, when the reason was that they had money. they went to private schools and ivy leagues, rubbed shoulders with the right people, and got deals through their privilege and connections.
yesss! also, some fanfics are absolute gems and the author's note is like "not beta read lmao". whereas published book have whole editors and get double triple checked by multiple people, yet some are still a flavourless mess?? makes no sense.
I recently read She Gets The Girl by Rachael Lippincott and Alyson Derrick and I loved it! Both lesbians from the start, already secure in their sexual orientation, and it's actually based on the story of how the two authors got together lol it was really cute and wholesome
Yes!!!!
agree! but again, that's ya. like why can't we get an adult romance like this😭😭
I LOVE this book!
I was gonna say this as a positive example 😭😭
Yeah I really loved that one! ❤
I totally recommend Chencia Higgins. She’s an awesome black author who is writes great stud characters. D’vaughn and Kris plan a wedding is amazing and a book that feels grounded in black lesbian community irl
THAT BOOK LITERALLY GIVES ME LIFE ISTG!!!!!!! WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW ❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥❤🔥
@@Daniscorner1738 sameee
Writers of lesbian/wlw stories who doesn't make it clear that their characters are lesbian are likely the same group of people who think that "labels doesn't matter". Sure. Making your entire personality all about your "label" is not good but erasing the word lesbian and the literature, history, behind it is not a good look either.
The only time the word lesbian can be omitted, to me, personally, is if someone is writing something historical and the word hasn't been created yet but there are plenty of other ways to show that a character is only attracted towards women. If Gentleman Jack did it so can they.
The lack of masculine women in media in general is my biggest pet peeve WHERE ARE THE BUTCHES WHERE DID THEY GO
At least some futches / tomboy lesbians are represented in media.
This! Butch /gender non-conforming women of ANY sexuality (that are not a complete stereotype) are so rare in media!
Frr patriachy the books feel so Male gazy
i think also with not having explicitly lesbian characters it keeps men involved in the story whether its explicit or in the shadows and just feels like bc of the patriarchal world we live in men can never be excluded, they can never fully decenter men whereas as lesbians we inherently do just by existing but they cant allow that in these books for some reason?
cause like you said straight romance and gay m/m romance are allowed to exist as is i think the difference is so obvious between gay m/m and f/f romance. in the m/m stories the men are allowed to just be gay
Yep!!
OMG THIS THIS I read many mm books and they are just allowed to be gay and Focus in men and only date men. Sometimes women arent even mentioned xd but oh nooo ff books always have to mention men exs or actual crushes with men or repeating again and again that one of them is bisexual and also likes men....like....god please stop
We need more lesbian x lesbian romances where men dont exist thanks
I agree I think it's because they are afraid to have women/girls be okay with lesbianism and society is afraid it will influence women to be lesbians too. ppl can be dumb. thats why lesbianism is always down played, the girl is either bi or turned out etc there's a bad boyfriend etc. In my story theres none of that and the lesbian characters are more than just lesbian, they are dynamic people that are not solely for sex. theres substance to the story.
@@wiggie666 I agree. it feels like a lot of what people write is the version of lesbians that they find the least threatening
I didn't watch the full video because the way you were explaining your first point wasn't working for me - it was too long and rambly and felt like you didn't know what you were going to say beforehand and it was making me frustrated. I THINK I agree with the core of your point which is that more f/f romance should focus on lesbians specifically and a diverse range of lesbian experiences instead of there being an over representation of previously straight women or bi/pan women only, but at some points it felt more like you were complaining about the existence of bi women in f/f fiction than asking for more of what you want?
You drew a big circle calling all f/f romance 'lesbian fiction' but then asked why there were so many bisexuals in it. The reality is bisexual people do date lesbians, often. I know that many bi women primarily date men, for a lot of reasons, but just because statistics and your anecdotal evidence makes the prominence of bi women in this fiction seem unlikely to you doesn't mean it's actually unrealistic in any way. Besides that is the fact that this is romance, escapist fiction, written by and for bi women who want romance about dating women.
I agree with you about wanting more lesbian representation in fiction, but I don't feel like you represented your point well at all and I think you ended up stating it in an alienating way. There's not a distinct separation between bi women and lesbians, or their wants and needs.
honestly the majority of f/f being very clean and almost sterile always feels jarring considering a lot of queer person I know, especially women, have really messy relationships with e/o in their youth. Those co-dependent homoerotic friendships, as some may put it. I know it's probably not what you mean but I think those moments set some really important building blocks to explore someone's sexuality. Like I get why the whole "I dated guys who suck but now I'm happy with a girl" is popular, but at least based on personal experience and observation, the lack of "I had this weird intimate relationship with a girl who swears she's straight and now I'm dating girls what does that mean" will always baffle me
100%! I'm bi so it's not exactly the same, but in spite of fervently believing I was straight until my early twenties, my teen years were plagued by weirdly intense relationships with fellow teen girls that I had no way of understanding at the time. Where is the angst fiction about having no idea why you're so upset that your best friend's older sister is getting married and being unable to stop staring at her body while also having no clue that's what you're doing? I need it!
I mean I agree. But that being said, a lot of these problems can be solved by looking beyond the white tradpub factory complex of Alexandria Bellefleur / Ashley Herring Blake / etc etc and going towards more indie and self published authors. Fiona Zedde, Lee Winter, Roz Alexander, Anita Kelly (tradpub but very intersectional), Lily Seabrooke, Anna Burke all have written significant lesbian fiction with lesbians leads, lesbian love interests and butch/masc leads. Asides that, Elle Mae writes some dark romance with masc and butch lesbians that are just pure guilty pleasures. There are Black authors like Chencia Higgins, Alyssa Cole and others who write non white masc/stud lesbians. SFF has a wealth of butches and mascs in lesbian romances, not just the Locked Tomb but She Who Became The Sun, Junker Seven, The Unbroken, The Fate of Stars, The Unspoken Name. Perhaps we just need to stop prioritizing white tradpub yuppie liberal pride flag style "sapphic" rep and actually seek books beyond the same 10 on every book list. When we say "This doesn't exist" we are just not reaching out and seeking out these less appreciated authors.
yeah, like I've been a yuri fan for a decade by now and it's always funny (in a sad way) to see people complaining about how little good lesbian romances there are when they're right there! You just need to look for them! I started with popular yuri, and if there was something I wanted that I didn't immediately find I looked for it. There's indie novels, baihe, manhwa, visual novels, the sky's the limit if you care enough to google. Hell you follow enough lesbian artists online you'll find someone shilling for their insane extremely intriguing indie novel that sold 17 copies
@ville__does it make you feel better saying it for the third time?
Stud Like Her was one of my favorite books I read in 2023
Yep, this right here. This feels like a white tradpub problem. Some of my fave indie authors write fantastic lesbian fiction that's exactly the opposite of what's being described in this video.
replying so more people see this comment, it’s very helpful! (^^)
HIGHLY recommend the book Tipping the Velvet as a solid lesbian historical romance. Excellent butch/gender nonconforming representation, drag kings, and a focus on lesbianism within a broader queer community. 10/10
My absolute favorite. Read it in high school, then downloaded the movie onto my iPod so I could watch it without my parents knowing. I've re-watched with a bunch of my queer friends over the years and I never get tired of it. Sarah Waters knows how to do historical fiction. Even her non-lesbian novel, The Little Stranger, was good.
@Psysium how does the movie compare to the book?
But you can’t dictate what other authors should write and what not. Just because there are more fem lesbians/bisexuals in wlw novels that doesn’t automatically mean they’re lesbianphobic? I think that’s pretty rude to say and far fetched. Authors tend to write about stuff they’re interested in: I would also write about fems. Why? Because I am attracted to them. And that’s a good right of the author - it’s their story and their interest. They don’t have to cater to anyone.
You could have the same argument about how most main characters are described as attractive or slim;curvy in books. Is that fatphobic now? Think about that.
The problem here isn't even this, the problem is the industry, there are books that fit all of the things she wants but they are not published by a big company nor are they heavily promoted, there are indie publishers who put out a wide variaty of lesbian books and there is a lot of books which are self published, it's just not gonna fall on their lap easily like straight and MLM books who are mostly written for a straight audience will.
I have noticed this problem in tv and movies as well. Hard pressed to find a butch anywhere. I am not a big romance reader so I have not read too many, but when and if we get some butches, I am so there! Great video!
Exactly!! Thank you ❤
Watch Arcane if you haven't already 😉
Recently read Mrs. S by K Patrick and really enjoyed it, it has a butch main character
check out Scavengers Reign everyone
Stop what you're doing and read Fingersmith and Tipping the Velvet
Fully agree. And so weird! Because Chinese lesbian romance novels have really similar issues, it’s amazing how they parallel each other, even they are developing in two different cultural context.
Like, in Chinese, lesbian romance are usually done in web novel platforms. They are serialized jus like majority of other romance novels in China (straight or gay alike), but unlike straight or gay romance, which produced amazing works with complex storylines and fully fleshed characters, I, as a lesbian, constantly find lesbian novels lacking. They are usually more poorly written, and they are almost always two femme with strong feminine stereotypes and a upper-class background. They are not really into other girls but each other.
Even the Hollywood background are weirdly similar. Chinese lesbian novels also have a obsession with super star celebrities, always a gorgeous famous actress who secretly into another gorgeous celebrity ( but not other girls because of course that would be too lesbian😅
Butch ( Chinese equivalent as “T”) /Femme ( Chinese equivalent as “P”) pairing are not so common if totally lacking in terms of presentation, even though they are actually more common in real life in China. There is underlying assumption even in Chinese lesbian community that butch and its masculinity is jarring when represented to the outer world. Lesbian relationship must be fully “feminine” and clean and sweet, a fairy land to escape the masculinities and all its flaws. It reminds me of when women used to be portrayed more morally upright than men, an angel in the house. It’s not a compliment, it’s restrictions. It’s problematic because the standards to elevate women or lesbian relationships is still held by men or heterosexual, it requires women or lesbian to perform in certain way to incorporate into the mainstream, serving them as a metaphor.
So glad to see this video! You said what I always want to say. And it’s really cathartic to see somebody else voice these rant. Maybe to say it out loud, to doubt, is the first step to change.
I don't know if you have read Please Don't Laugh baihe novels, but I think you might like them?
@@cm-cm2vq I was literally just gonna ask this
"Why are there so many romance books with a couple where both women are bisexual?"
Well, i don't know, maybe they're written by bisexual women? Plenty of bisexuals date mostly other bisexuals. Comes with the bonus of less biphobia.
Yes, like she could have pointed the fact that they are not enough lesbian novels with diverse characters and representation without the whole "there's always a bi woman involved"...
@@sketchbookstour right?! I'm all for more lesbian couples in literature, more butch lesbians, more poc lesbians, disabled lesbians, older lesbians - but goodness gracious, why pick up bisexual romances and demand there be less bisexual wlw couples? Then people turn around and say that bis are only pairing up with people of different genders (""""not a real bisexual""""). C'mon.
@@sketchbookstour just saw my reply wiped out of existence right in front of my eyes. I guess there was too many forbidden L-words in it. Now that's a damn problem, not bi wlw couples!
As I said previously (thanks, CZcams censor bots), I completely agree and I'm too all for more lesbian couples in literature - older, butch, poc, disabled, strange, perfect and imperfect, in all wonderful varieties of humanity. But picking up a bi wlw romance and complaining that the couple are both bi...
Then people turn around and say that bi people only pair off with different genders ("""not really bi"""). I mean, c'mon.
(Edit: typos)
@@KristinaVeshtort-Kaskto add to your comment, they exist, I read Harper Bliss a lesbian woman who mostly writes about women over the age of 45, Jae has written about interracial couples, disabled people, non binary, ace, butch woman, femme, people can find them, the problem is that they want it to be as easy as it is for straight and MLM romance with a fraction of the audience.
yeah statistically there are twice as many bi women as there are lesbians so it makes sense
as a masc, i always felt uncomfortable by the lack of butch/masc representativity in wlw media. it's kind of paradoxal, we are the lesbian stereotype but we still feel invisible sometimes. maybe that's why i like arcane and (specially) the locked tomb series so much
“Astrid Parker doesn’t fail” made me feel so weird when they said “I don’t do CIS MEN” like can people stop seeing trans men as women like 😭😭
transphobia goes wild, like why the hell do they see trans men as women??? that's just so weird and makes me sad when comes from people of the community
@@cbinweb It's also funny because terfs tend to see themselves as the paragons of feminism, but the way they see trans men is inherently sexist. Because they see trans men as women but they also don't think they become trans voluntarily like trans women but rather are manipulated into it. Something something women not being able to have agency something something hypocrisy
Sorry for the rant, I'm transmasc and a recovering terf, and this duality is just something I find super interesting and hypocritical on their part.
astrid parker made me so unbelievably mad and disgusted i fell into a 3 month reading slump 💀 those fucking clit necklaces!!!!!!!!!!!!
The book “Home Field Advantage” had a line like that too, one of the MCs said she was polysexual and liked women and trans men but not cis men and it made me feel weird
@@AjotmaIt always carries the underlying implication that they can clock who's trans and who isn't, as if there aren't trans people who pass and cis people who don't.
You’re soo brave for this but nothing but facts!! Also these romance books lose some of the escapism with the characters just info dump-explaining their identities (and rarely using the term ‘lesbian’) which is something you’d never read in a straight or m/m romance!! For people in lesbian community, simply using the term ‘lesbian’ is so all-encompassing not just for sexuality but gender identity as well!! Of course there’s nuance to all of this, great video.
I totally agree!! Thank you so much ❤❤
I love your look in this video and I was excited when this came up in my suggestions because a lot of my sapphic/wlw reads have felt lukewarm in comparison to their achillean/mlm and cis-straight counterparts, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on why!
I totally agree lots of sapphic novels just don’t have good, sexy tension, and there’s a lack of diversity in gender and style presentation between the couple. This hinders a reader’s ability to identifying and fangirling over a “book girlfriend”, which in turn hinders the entire experience of reading a romance novel. And these books are still successful because of desexualised societal stereotypes towards sapphics.
Also 100% with you on wishing more lesbian characters would say the word “lesbian” with their chests! I hate that this is still an issue we’re battling in media. I do think that some adult romance characters (self-actualised ones especially, in terms of sexual orientation) are written to not feel the need to explicitly say “I’m bi!” or “I’m gay” or “I’m non-binary!” when they make adult acquaintanceships. Still, I think your point still stands that lots of queer people love to own their labels and that needs to be represented better, no matter how uncomfortable people are with the word “lesbian”.
I do think, however, that it’s not quite productive to be framing femme bisexual sapphic characters or femme x femme lesbian rep as hindrances to the genre of lesbian fiction. F/F, wlw or sapphic romance is an umbrella term inclusive of all queer non men who love non men. Lesbian fiction is definitely an extremely important subset in the genre, and we absolutely need more lesbian x lesbian rep, butch x femme rep, and WLNB rep. It’s heartbreaking that they don’t get picked up by big publishers as much, and definitely once again a reflection of lesbophobia in society. I think the best we can do is seek out and support good books and authors in these genres, including from indie publishers, and hope that the market catches up to audience interests.
Most bi authors (like Mcquiston, Blake and Bellefleur) write about bi characters because they’re drawing from their personal experiences, and I think that’s really great for the bi community, and sapphic bisexuals. While it is disappointing their lesbian characters don’t explicitly use the label as much, and that they very rarely feature butches or non binary love interests (and more women exes-those are the most fun!), I do think they otherwise do a near-YA good job with discussing gender, sexuality and labels + representing different body types. (Given how strongly you feel about their books, we might have to agree to disagree on that!)
And to gently counter your point about how bi sapphic rep or femme x femme lesbian rep don’t quite feel representative to the IRL sapphic community (which in your experience is a lot of lesbians with women exes, and a lot of lovely butch/femme lesbians-which is honestly super awesome): Personally, I know way more bisexual women (including men exes) than lesbians (and more femmes and mascs than butches, and very few femme x butch couples-I’m quite jealous of your social circle, because I wish I knew more of them!). Statistically, bi+ individuals form the largest portion of the LGBTQ+ community, even though each of our personal communities may not reflect that. (For example, my friend circles are all queer and neurodivergent … Though I wish that was representative of the entire population, it’s very much not!) So I do think it’s good that bi sapphic rep by bi sapphic authors is being published! And I think it’s great that we have femme x femme rep! (Despite the current “lukewarm” pitfall of the sapphic genre, of course.) I do totally understand where you’re coming from personally, though!
These already-successful bi authors could focus on writing more lesbian x lesbian romances (as you suggest), but then there’s a good chance we’d be instead criticizing them even more harshly 1) for any inaccuracies in the representation; and 2) for taking up space from lesbian authors doing the same. Regardless, I think authors should be free to write about characters that resonate most with their personal identities. I think more published lesbian authors are the heroes we really need. 💔
I love that you also point out the double standard where achillean romances have more gay characters than bi ones! Part of the reason is definitely biphobia and homophobia-people think queerness “taints” a man’s masculinity and ability to be an adequate boyfriend to a woman, so they can’t compute the existence of a bi man. And part of it definitely is that gay men are free from the specific horrors of lesbophobia and the societal need to have attraction to the “opposite” gender built into any woman character. Interestingly, it used to be that any character with the ability to be attracted to men (like a bi woman or bi man) will always end up with a man-because your fate must revolve around your attraction to men. So while achillean fiction hasn’t quite shaken off that patriarchal narrative yet (it’s hard to name a bunch of M/F books with a bi man, but easy to name a bunch of M/M books with bi men), I am so thrilled that sapphic media is now reclaiming many bi women characters.
I adore She Drives me Crazy, and Last Night at the Telegraph Club was life-changing to read! I know you said you’re not super interested in fantasy, but may I recommend The Forgotten Gods duology by Marie Rutkoski? It’s femme lesbian x NB lesbian and *very* sexy IMO! Another one of my absolute favourites.
@ville__ dude go home 💀 literally no one cares
i love she drives me crazy
As a bisexual, o think it is important to have bi representation, but i dont think a lot of sapphic novels do it in a good way. I dont find bi/bi relationships to be as uncommon in the real world as you made them out to be, since personally all of my relationships with women have been bi/bi, and so have the majority of my friend’s relationships. This doesnt mean that we dont need better lesbian representation, we absolutely do, its just rhat bi/bi relationships dont feel disingenuous to me. This may be skewed by oersonal experience though.True lesbian representation and bisexual representation can and should coexist! I find a lot of popular sapphic literature to be boringly desexualized and bland in a way all mlm or straight romances arent, and thats my biggest gripe with the genre.
it’s true that there are never true butch characters in this genre and as a butch, that sucks. But also, where are the femmes? These women are feminine, but there is so much more to the femme lesbian identity than that. Theoretically I should be able to enjoy these romances as someone who likes femmes, but it just doesn’t click. I want to read books about lesbians, not just women!
So true!
Maybe look in more indie publishing, cause it seem to me like this books you are mentioning are mainstream for straight people, but we have to look in more niche spaces and give THOSE the hype they need.
I'm a disabled plus size nonbinary lesbian, and I feel you hit the nail on the head with this entire video and it's a very real issue I'm noticing. I also agree with you about the YA ones being better, one of my favorites I read last year was the lesbianas guide to Catholic School by Sonora reyes!! I'm also finding more trans rep in young adult books as well.
Thank you so much!! That’s a book my friends really love and I really should pick up :)
seconding the lesbiana’s guide to catholic school!
i liked the lesbianas guide to Catholic School too!
@@asunnybooknookthat book made me cry, highly recommend!
The lesbiana's guide to catholic school resonated w/ me as a first gen Mexican who grew up under a catholic household :,) I wish there were more stories like those, it's hard finding sapphic stories that aren't centered around yt women.
i’m bi and i’ve always struggled to put into words why i just don’t gravitate towards wlw media. a lot of it just doesn’t feel like it was made for sapphics. i think a lot of queer content (less so mlm content but this is also very prevalent in stories about trans/nby people for example) tries so hard to pander to straight people that they lose the community as an audience because it just feels overly sanitized and infantilizing.
as for the ‘why are they always bi women?’ thing i know a lot of wlw couples that are two bi women together, so i don’t think it’s at all unrealistic, but i think there def should be room for other experiences as well. i think that the way that wlw characters *have* to have a male ex in these books shows a subconscious bias that women need to have men in their lives for formative experiences and also feeds into the weird obsession that a lot of queer authors have with inexperience.
and ofc everyone has a first queer relationship, once again writing about inexperienced characters isn’t *wrong*, but like. come on. is this all we’re allowed to write about? i want to read about women who are confident in their sexuality for once. and once again it just feels infantilizing and like women aren’t allowed to express their sexuality.
i also think there’s an obsession with queer struggles. once again. people go through this but it shouldn’t just be about suffering and dealing with homophobia and navigating your sexuality. straight romances are allowed to have complex storylines and conflicts but with lesbian romance it’s just like “omg 😢😢 what if she’s straight 💔💔” and them dancing around each other for 20 chapters before sharing a chaste kiss. like it’s just boring and overdone.
Man I thought i was like not into women bc of how much lesbian romances bored me this makes me feel so much more valid 😭
this feels more like a publishing problem rather than specifically an author problem.
"Last Night at the Telegraph Club" is one of the best YA books i have ever read. i even enjoyed the novel more when i re-read it in my ya lit class.i've also really enjoyed the supplementary materials that malinda lo included. it was clear that she loved what she was doing.
i also love your take on gender-non conformity and the representation of race in lesbian romantic novels! hopefully we'll see some tension and fucking soon
Yay!! Yes LNATC is fantastic. Thank you :)
It was soooo good
reading this book rn. makes me tear up with how good it is
it’s definitely not necessarily the fact that they don’t identify as lesbians, rather it’s bothersome that A MAJORITY of these books center around “i didn’t know i could like women and now my past relationships with men become a focal point in my current queer romance”. yes, many people have experienced that, that’s great ! but there are also people who’ve always known they were lesbian and are proud of the fact and our experiences should be shared. it’s also just tiresome how so few books don’t have experienced sapphics, it’s often this “new, curious, and exotic world” to the character lol.
@ville__ then i made a great choice ;)
I think the issue that a lot of queer romances suffer from is a total unwillingness to engage with queerness. It feels like so many of them are 'what if two respectable gender conforming men/women kissed' and then entirely ignore dynamics, problems and life experiences that real life queer people have.
Described it better than I ever could have omg
I’m reading Hani and ishus guide to fake dating rn and it’s so cute but also like so sad, the biphobia (yes it’s not a lesbian/lesbian book) and the racial dynamics, religion, family and disownment, like there’s so much going on other than just the romance and it’s so well done. Also in this authors other book the henna wars, the main character nishat actively describes herself as a lesbian! Both of these r femme4femme but really good regardless
i loved these two books!! especially the henna wars
I also enjoyed the henna wars!
Looking at the covers of the books you are showing as examples i kind of chuckle because "wearing jeans" is apparently the maximum of butchness these women are allowed :D - Loved this video! And something that i've noticed, it often feels like lots of these characters are bisexual not because it is part of their identity, but because it is somehow seen as more "safe" by the authors because bisexuality is sometimes seen als "one step closer" to heterosexuality, because ... "There still possibility of men DON'T WORY GUYS". Plus the whole problem with these women being all very "clean" characters without edges and problems and messy feelings (not just regarding their sexuality, but just, ANYTHING). Like, common guys, we use the phrase "disaster bisexual" for a reason :D So even as bisexual rep i find them very lacking. And i completely agree - more explicit lesbian rep please!!
Technically speaking, a lot of (mostly so-called "elder") lesbians have been in straight relationships, many often married, and usually resulting in a LOT of mental shenanigans happening to these women.
You CAN do straight things, but still be gay. That is a thing!
I think that makes a lot of sense since older generations gay relationships were frowned apon.
The part where you talked about Honey Girl especially feels pretty double-standard. Earlier you talk about how YA saophic books deal with more complex issues so you find them more compelling, but somehow an adult wlw book protagonist whose book is about more than just romance is the one you choose to have a problem with? Sure it is not the best romance book but it is such a refreshing breath of air of family dynamic of a queer black woman coming into herself, and it discussed about the racism in the main character's industry, toxic family dynamic and also just mental health in general.
yess, totally agree with your points! the lack of butch or nb lesbians (like myself) representations really bother me. also, the romances I've been reading lately are so trope-y that it feels like the characters aren't real people, they're just there to fit the purpose of the trope but the author writes it so badly it kinda fucks everything up. it's happening a lot with straight and m/m romances too, and that lack of "what makes that character real" kills a book for me. it kills the sexual tension, like you said, because who enjoys reading about two cardboard cutouts trying to convince themselves and you that they want to fuck each other??? lately I've been much more into fanfiction when it comes to romance only, because at least the characters are already appealing and sexy to me and i'm already familiar with the story or the plot (and the writers are pretty fucking great).
the tropification of romance writing ruining the genre is too true. You need meaningful and concrete characters to couch a trope narrative first and foremost!
I completely agree. I'm an Agender Butch, and I never really, relate? To most lesbian books, because they are usually all feminine. And that's great for femmes, although they never really explore how femmes are femenine in a way that is away from the male gaze.
I can never find any lesbain romances, or books in general that show butch, masc lesbains and I think it is in part because it is much harder to market hairy butches to men.
This is kind of a rant but I've felt like this for ages, it's very annoying to never see myself in any kind of romance book
@@ButchBearDjungelskog and it’s also very hard to appeal to straight women, who have very weird ideas of what lesbians (and homosexuals in general) are. and yeah i love femmes and most of their representations but i would love to see them fall in love for a fat butch or a agender butch, a masc lesbian, etc! that would feel much more realistic
This is why Lee winter is my fav author. Many lesbian protagonists and she is not afraid to say lesbian. The characters feel REAL and complex and ugh i love her
I agree and I also find it annoying and tragic that some lesbians _never_ use the term 'lesbian' to identify but only 'gay', like gay boys / men do.
I was SO confused through the beginning of this video because I haven't read these tropes at all and then I looked at the comments. Y'all are reading way too much white literature. I almost exclusively read queer books written and featuring bipoc characters and they feel so grounded and authentic (re: D'vaughn & Kris Plan A Wedding) and there are great lesbian stories outside of the romance genre of course like Light From Uncommon Stars and She Who Became the Sun. I know you're talking about what's more abundant in stores but I wish we could stop expecting diversity and variety from white authors when they have no desire or incentive to give it to us. I hope we can start supporting books that exist that we actually want to read.
I think the problem is that they are reading what is popular, like bestsellers and booktok stuff, when there are so much more out there, there are literally multiple sapphic exclusive presses with pretty cool authors, sapphic romance is more niche, so obviously the more popular ones are going to be the ones with a bigger audience like lesbian +bi, bi+bi.
They are just not digging hard enough, most of these books and authors I have never read and I read exclusively WLW books for 10 years now.
Drop some recs please! I've read some niche authors, one of my favorites is When Women Were Warriors which is a sapphic fantasy by Catherine M. Wilson. Thinking about it, I've enjoyed sapphic fantasy and historicals more than sapphic contemporary romance. If you have something like that or any other more fluffy but sexy wlw romances regardless of setting, that would be great.
@@lolabint3411 omg do you have any other recs as well? The genres you described are my favorite
I'm a lesbian, but i feel like your first point came across as a little, well... Problematic. 😂 I understand what you were trying to say about lesbian romances not centering sapphic attraction/still centering experiences with men/ and i fully agree with you that there's a lack of out-and-proud lesbians in f/f romances (and i notice a weird tendency to include a wide lgbtq+ community but not lesbians?), but I think for a lot of bi/pan women and even lesbians it is common to date men and then meet a woman who turns your world around (and as a demisexual i certainly relate to that experience and I appreciate a slower burn - though i agree there has to be a flame.)
And I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with having couples made up of two bi/pan women? They are not anly less gay or sapphic than lesbians. (And how would you - general you- know if a real life couple is made up of two bi women unless they loudly announce it anywhere they go? Most people would probably assume they're lesbians.) Your point came across as a little bi-exclusionary.
Having said that, I fully agree with all your other points even though you did include books i liked (OLS, TMHYRF though I do acknowledge OLS has an issue with centering whiteness and TMHYRF is... okay, at best)- the genre does flatten sapphic relationships and women in general and it is very lacking in eroticism and def butch/gender non-conforming characters (as a fem who's also attracted to butches i feel your pain). I plan to write a phd thesis on this.
Definitely agree with your first two paragraphs (with third, too, but besides the point). The point expressed in the video around lesbian/bisexual women characters could have just been conveyed by stating that there is a lack of lesbian characters, characters explicitly identifying as lesbians (very understandable, can sympathize) without making it out for bisexual women or bi/bi relationships to be some kind of a downgrade or being "unrealistic"(?!) when seen in sapphic romance. Maybe ff/sapphic rships being characterized as 'lesbian rship' even when not being between 2 lesbians repeatedly in the video should have made it clear to me the video author's stance pretty soon.
Also, quite a large amount of commenters stating smth in the veins of "even though i'm a bi/pan/ace etc woman in a romantic rship with another bi/pan/ace etc woman and this is how my whole friend circle look and how the queer community i'm part of looks like, seeing so many bi/bi or bi/lesbian is unrealistic"...
I can honestly say that i'm personally DNFing sapphic romances much more often due to these kinds of exclusionary bs expressed in them coming from within the community than the prevalence of appealing to straight sensitivities. And that while agreeing that the last one is certainly a problem, so
I agree
@@ortija4383 based on their other videos i don't think the author is exclusionary as this first point would make it appear and i certainly haven't seen that sort of attitude in books im reading (very curious which books you've been dnf-ing) but i def didn't like how the point was expressed.
i guess op was using lesbian and sapphic interchangeably which... there are both positives and negatives to. I do agree that two extremely fem women (specifically in a way that very much appeals to the male gaze) is not... common, and doesn't seem to reflect the queer women/sapphic community i know if irl and online
@ville__ no it's not but if it were, i'd be gayer :)
@ville__ taking time out of your day to comment the same thing in reply to dozens of comments is choice, and it's a pathetic way to waste the one life you have on earth
I just don't understand why the authors are so afraid to be sexy 😭 I get that from m/m and m/f, but f/f seems so afraid of it!!!
"as a femme long hair makeup lesbian, i would never date someone who looked like me" PERIOD
You get it!!!
As a femme long hair makeup lesbian I would not date anyone who is masculine, because I don't like it and I don't find it attractive, we are all different.
Oh no. I’m the kind of vain high femme who will drop acid, take a bathroom break, and look in the mirror before shouting to the woman occupying my king bed, “Omg! Is it bad that I really want to fuck myself right now?”
@@bluester7177 Me too, I cannot understand why a lesbian would be sexually attracted to a masculine girl / woman who looks (and often annoyingly also behaves / acts) like a boy / man - and I don't mean just short hair and male clothing, but also with a masculine face (you still can be a femme / lipstick lesbian with shorter hair; not with very short hair or bald though). Ironically most butches aren't sexually attracted to other butches, that is why butch-butch lesbian couples are relatively rare to see. I also noticed that mostly bisexual and pansexual women are attracted to butch girls / women, lesbians aren't so much. Me personally, I am only sexually attracted to femmes and futches (tomboys). I wouldn't consider myself as homosexual though, because I am also sexually attracted to transgender women, not just cisgender women, so that makes me polysexual.
@@bluester7177finally someone who gets it . Why do I feel like it’s always shamed to like femmes as a femme …
Ngl I actually felt a bit bad about how you kind of... dismissed bi couples in a way at the beginning? Almost as if bi women dating wasn't gay enough for you, or if them having a past doesn't interfere with stuff, which it actually DOES many times. In my experience as a bi woman I constantly met lesbians who dismissed or rejected bi women because "their mouths once touched a man" and it was just disgusting to them (I really met a lot of ppl who said exactly this), not to mention how some people who are either gay or lesbian tend to be insecure and act as if the bi partner will just trade them for someone of the opposite sex when it's time to marry and have kids bc it's "easier and more comfortable", so it's actually a very solid experience to have that past come up and be a conflict. Ofc these past traumas in relation to lesbians being biphobic may have made me read into what you were saying in a different way. It's how I felt though.
I do believe there is a lack of good writing in wlw focused romances and idk why. Even in mlm focused books and media I frequently find lesbian couples who are more interesting, well developed and outside of "beauty standards" than in their own focused material, so I wonder why the genre feels so disingenuine in what it brings to the table. That being said, "She Drives Me Crazy" was fun to me. Very cliché and also very fun. Took me out of my reader's block
Thank you! It really turned me off from the rest of the video
This person is infamous for being rampantly anti bisexual on twitter and TikTok. They said that not because they have any true concerns regarding this and its implications for lesbian representation, it’s because they don’t like bisexuals plain and simple
all the honey girl hate in the vid/ comments is devastating 😭
as a mixed (white mom, black dad) lesbian i fucking loved this book. also its not a romance and its way more about mental illness and self discovery so i dont really understand it even being mentioned in this video.
idk ppl can like what they like i just had to defend this book its one of my faves
I related to a lot of what u said. The problem i have with f/f romance is the focus on feminity in a way i dont find realistic to my queer experience. it usually feels like im reading about 2 cis straight women with no sexual tension...makes me want to die lol. i tend to be attracted to masc presenting women, feminine men, butch/studs/trans ppl etc. i find it hard to relate to bisexual protagonists even though i am bi, because of the prevalent gender conforminity and the lack of involvement with purely queer communities. a book i read last year and really loved was "Detransition Baby" because although it was not romance, it felt real to the trans and queer circles im in.
also this is a problem in lesbian media in general, feeling comfortable exploring romantic attraction but not sexual attraction. For example, I love that cartoons have f/f relationships but I feel it comes from the idea that ~girls liking girls is soft and innocent~ and not that it can't be, but we don't get the same variation with sexual tension that you see in m/m.
edit: Had some time to think about it before adding this. I totally appreciate ur commentary on lesbian relationships but didn't relate to the bi discourse. I wouldn't necessarily say that most bi women date lesbians because in my experience, I noticed it more interwoven with other sexualities (pan, demi etc) as well. What I do notice is that some bisexual people (like me lol) will be attracted to masculine women or butches and gravitate towards lesbians because of this. Since ur a femme, maybe u notice this dynamic more.
that element of f/f media leaning heavily into a desexualized innocence with a lack of tension is soooo real! I agree that there is totally a lack of sexual tension. Someone else commented this but these books' portrayal of characters' expressions of femininity feels very cisheterosexual rather than true to the queer women and lesbians' understanding of our gender.
Yes, I was talking about the lesbian relationships I know of in my life!! I know more bi gfs of lesbians by far than two bi women or two non-lesbians in a lesbian relationship, more generally. I'm speaking from my personal experience for sure
I super agree with ur point about bisexuality!!
to be completely fair about honey girl, i don’t think it was originally being marketed as a romance novel, as opposed to just being a coming of age book. the romance wasn’t centred, but i didn’t expect it to be? i have seen a lot of people talk about it as if it’s a romance novel, even though it isn’t, and that’s where i think a lot of the genre confusion comes from. i’ve mainly seen white book influencers throw it around in their queer romance recommendations so they can claim to be “inclusive”. i feel like it’s become the “token black lesbian romance book” when that just wasn’t the intention for it at all.
I think one other reason we see more bi female MCs rather than more lesbian MCs is bc there’s simply more bi women in the world then there are lesbians, and people in general are more inclined to write from perspectives they relate to rather than writing from a different perspective. There’s just a higher volume of bi authors in general than lesbian authors, so we’re naturally going to see more bi MCs.
Ofc this doesn’t change the fact that I am dying for more lesbian MCs and lesbian LIs that feel like real people 😭 just something else to consider!
@ville__ so can you choose being straight?
It is true that numerically, there are more bi women than lesbians, but how much of this discrepancy is the industry being actively hostile to lesbian authors? To lesbian stories that actually ruffle feathers and are culturally alien to heterosexual people?
@anais3337 Yes, that is right. According to several recent studies, there are meanwhile even more bisexual and pansexual girls and women than heterosexual girls and women: depending on the study, allegedly 60-80% (!) of all females are queer, but many haven't found it out yet, are in the closet for different reasons or still in denial, that is why surveys have much lower percentages.
I’m confused. My wife wears cowboy boots and was repairing the air conditioner on the car this morning. We’re going to her makerspace later. But it sounds like the fact that she likes pedicures and sometimes wears lipstick would make her “not butch enough.” How can complaining about lack of nuance and also demanding that butches all look and behave a certain way at all times both be a thing? Could having an incredibly restrictive definition of butch be part of the issue?
They literally said in the video the issue isn’t “butches cant wear makeup” or whatever superficial complaint, its about lesbian romance writers severe aversion to displaying female masculinity without feeling the need to “feminize” her. It is a frustration with the erasure of gender non-conformity, which is the actual issue here.
You voiced so many problems I've had when looking for and reading lesbian books! So many contemporary lesbian romances feel like they would rather be palatable to non-lesbians than commit to showing an actual lesbian relationship (and use the word lesbian on page).
I have known that I have never been attracted to men, but for a long time I felt like I wasn't allowed to call myself a lesbian. Part of what led me to identify as a lesbian was seeing the variety of gender presentation/identities within the real-life lesbian community and realizing I can both identify as a lesbian and explore my relationship with gender within that identity. I feel like gender-nonconformity is really lacking in lesbian romance novels and it's disappointing because that is something that I really love about being a lesbian.
Having so many lesbian romances only feature femme4femme couples also makes it look like that is common in real life to people who are not familiar with the community, which then perpetuates the idea that lesbian relationships can only look a certain way.
Sorry for the essay but I am glad to know we are all begging for more butches in romance novels❤
Thank you so much, I also agree that this is about the general discomfort lesbianism brings to a mainstream audience. Also I think that the gender-nonconformity aspect of lesbianism that hardly is represented, in favor of the two girls in dresses having picnics conception of lesbianism, totally makes it more difficult for certain people to come to terms with their lesbianism. Because if lesbianism is seen as a rejection of masculinity and not men, it’s necessarily limiting
Thank you for this!! I’m on the ace spectrum and prefer romantic relationships with women, but trying to find any good rep for lesbians and non-femmes is like finding a needle in a haystack a lot of the time. Also, when they do exist, the mc is usually a whyte femme and the butch love interest is a BIPOC, which further perpetuates harmful rhetoric ab BIPOC women.
I’ve read a few of the books in this video & a lot of the others are on my TBR, but knowing now what those relationships are like, I’m less inclined to read them. I just want escapism in a way that isn’t constantly pandering to heteros or non-lesbians for the sake of not being seen as “too gay” or “man-hating” when that’s not the case at all for books w m/m romances. It’s a shitty double standard that novels for queer women have to cater to every queer women regardless of the story, but novels for queer men don’t have that same obligation.
For sure!! I very much agree with your last paragraph especially. Thank you for watching and contributing your thoughts :)
Thank goodness I found your channel! I have been struggling with finding F/F books and every time I ask for a recommendation on any book reading group I’m a part of it’s always exactly what you described. Your recommendations playlist has been added to my TBR. THANK YOU SO MUCH
Have you read any lesbian romance novels by small sapphic presses? For example, Bella Books, Boldstrokes Books, Ylva Publishing, Flashpoint
She probably didn't, or this video would be a little bit different and I probably wouldn't be feeling like I'm a crazy person when people say lesbians are underepresenred and I'm like "where? " , what she should have said is that books traditionally published by large presses have a problem with overrepresentation of more palatable groups, also, I imagine they are also mostly reading YA, which has this same problems she talked about with F/M and M/M pairings too, where are the fat short bears in the M/M books Bestsellers?
@@bluester7177i feel like the tropes sunny talks about are def an issue in a lot of mainstream books but you can definitely find things that are like, dirtier and more specific if you look hard enough lol. i read a lot of lesbian horror because that’s where i find the dynamics that appeal to me most, and there’s definitely still a lack of butch rep but self published or indie publishers have a lot of wider selections for lesbian novels that are way more interesting than what’s mainstream which is true for like every genre ever!
I agree with the point that current representation is overly repetitive and not reflective of real life diversity of wlw relationship.
However the insinuation that femme4femme relationships between bi women are unrealistic, or having past relationships with men somehow takes away from wlw romance is not a fair statement. Maybe those experiences are not reflective of you and your social circle, and it's valid to want representation of your experience, but those kinds of relationships do happen in real life, are just as valid, and are not in anyway unrealistic or lesphobic.
I say this is a genderfluid lesbian who has never dated men, and has yet to read a romance reflective of me and me wife's experience, who is a bisexual trans woman.
I don't think it's fair to critique authors for not depicting relationships that you are personally interested in. We need more, and more diverse depictions, not less of the current.
it's more of a criticism that this is a specific type of over-representation of what lesbian dynamics look like and are that caters to what ultimately feels like a non-lesbian readership. Mainstream lesbian romance novels aren't just bad (imo) because of the current landscape of who and what gets represented not reflecting my personal experiences, but because what exists on the market right now is couched in and a consequence of the political reality of lesbophobia and transphobia, a specific opposition in publishing that nearly refuses to feature lesbian characters in lesbian romance books, or gender non-conforming characters in lesbian romance books, etc. etc. It's also an extension of the contemporary reality of lesbian popular media that is ultimately ahistorical and disrespectful to both butch-femme histories of grassroots lesbian community formation and lesbian-feminist legacies of opposition to patriarchal conceptions of women and female sexuality. Also, this is a video of my personal lamentations and issues with the genre and I never claimed them to be universal critiques
@asunnybooknook thank you for taking the time to reply.
When you say "lesbian romance novels" are you referring to wlw romances in general, or specifically romances where both characters are lesbians? I'm thinking the former, since your video critiqued the scarcity of lesbian/lesbian representation. I think it's valid to want more lesbian/lesbian representation and would agree that the scarcity of it may relate to lesphobia in the publishing industry as a reflection of wider society.
Also wondering what is meant by a non-lesbian readership being the target readership. Do you think the target readership is straight men, straight women, bi women, gay men or something else? Because if wlw romance featuring bisexual characters is mislabeled as lesbian romance, I can see the frustration, but that kind of representation should exist and isn't inherently lesphobic. And makes sense that the existing representation would appeal to bi women perhaps more then lesbians. But if you mean the current depictions are written to appeal to straight readers, I would disagree.
Totally understand that this is a video to express your own lamentations, but your critiques blurred the lines between "this is what I want to see" and "these are objective issues with the state of representation", including in your response here which made claims of transphobia and lesphobia, which I don't think were fully justified. I feel your wording leans towards gatekeeping of wlw depictions, which valorise your own preferences of lesbian/lesbian bitch/femme dynamics.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts as to whether depictions of butch/femme and gender nonconformity are more widespread in self published fiction, or whether the same narrow representation trends in traditionally published fiction carry over to self published? And if so, what are the solutions?
*butch/femme omg
I agree with you, and I don't think there's "over representation" of (for example) sapphic couples with bi women! What is even over-representation? Those relationships definitely exist and I don't think we should tell authors what do write, we can just support them by reading the books we take interest in, and not reading it if we know we won't like it. I only read one of the books shown in the video and highly disliked it, so I just try to be more carefull about what I choose
Well said. That specific part was frustrating to me.
Also, I feel like part of the issue or at least one potential way to help mitigate would be more accurate labeling of the books (for example on review sites like Goodreads & such). Like I know I find it frustrating sometimes not being able to figure out whether any of the characters are bi in sapphic books (since that is my preference that I seek out). All sapphic romance being labeled lesbian romance isn't particularly helpful in finding specific rep. That way people can find the specific types of rep at least and hopefully find more of what they're looking for rather than spending time on things that don't appeal to them. I'm sure that's much easier said than done, but it'd be nice to have easier ways to find specific rep.
Huh kinda funny, I feel like I've kinda avoided this issue entirely by mostly reading webnovels, webtoons or independantly published books. For some fun butches I could recommend Katelepsis (If you're also a fan of eldritch Horror) (this reminds me that I should really get back into it lol)
an interesting pattern I noticed, is that nearly all of the books you disliked for being "gay for you" or bi characters, the authors are either straight or bi/curious women, most of whom are married to men. And most of the books where you liked the characters/relationship/dynamic were written by lesbians or women married to women.
not saying you should turn reading into a homework assignment, but maybe look into reading "own voices" by lesbians specifically?
no accounting for the final few books where the writing was just straight up bad. that's not an identity/sexuality thing. that's just bad writing.
i will say - and this very well could just be me - but i don't find the majority of these comments, besides the ones that are actually criticizing the f/f aspect of the romance novels - which i do agree with, on the whole - to be unique to f/f romance novels? i think they're just failings of romance in general. i've read m/f, m/m, and f/f romances too. plenty of them. but - and i'm bringing this point up, because you brought up fanfiction (which i also read a lot of, probably due to this) - the grand majority to me i can't really escape into? nor do i find them sexy, or realistic, definitely not more or less so than f/f romance. let alone, better written. romances just try way too hard to get you to believe in the relationship that they fail at nearly everything that actually makes something romantic to me. it's why i always joke with my friends about the fact that i'm just doomed to like romances that are either vaguely alluded to being canon or - and more frequently - flat out not meant to be romantic at all because they actually take time to build out a dynamic that i relate to, and *want*. fanfiction just enhances what canon gave us.
and before anyone says anything - i've tried plenty of slow burn romances. none of them hit for me. every character feels sooooooooooo fucking vapid and surface level to the point of where i have to wonder how anyone escapes into romance at all. the only difference is now instead of getting sex scenes 100 pages in, you're getting them 300+ pages in. bc that's apparently the metric most mainstream authors measure when a relationship becomes a relationship by - something i could go into, but hey. not everyone wants to have sex. adult romance shouldn't have to hinge on sex to make the romance "real". and again, genuinely, maybe i'm missing something. maybe i just don't understand romance. but there's a grand total of one adult romance novel i've ever read with a sex scene that i've actually gone back and reread because i thought it was hot. one. over the at least 50+ i've attempted to/have read. because most of them, to me, suck.
and before anyone says anything else, i'm a lesbian. i find it fundamentally flawed to assert that m/f and m/m romances are somehow more relatable or real than f/f romances when it comes down to both the quality of writing and the identities of the characters. ofc as a lesbian i'm not gonna relate more to a book about a gay man. i'm not a gay man. i'm a lesbian. this is why i just read niche fics for niche f/f ships i like bc those are infinitely more relatable to me than any mainstream m/f or m/m published romance.
This!! The last paragrah of your comment is so important too....
MM books DO NOT make better at identities. I actually think that the difference has more to do with lesbomisogyny. Men are allowed to priorize men and that's why many MM books dont even mention women ex's or are allowed to be gay MC and focus on the mm relationship. But in ff books, writers are obssessed with saying how many of their MC like boys too, or have boy crushes, or simply avoiding saying the word LESBIAN, etc. Women arent allowed to not like or center their lives in women, without any man involved.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that even if a female character is bisexual they don’t always have male exes either. I know a decent amount of bisexuals who prefer woman and will/have only ever dated as such. And their attraction to men is mainly through media or they haven’t found one they wanted to date in general.
I’m a bisexual engaged to a cis white man so I am not the best example of this 😅. But trust me I have plenty of friends who fit in this group.
I'm bi and i was a bit put off because you said you want to talk about books that feature _lesbian_ relationships but then your first critique was that those books mostly talk about at least one or two _bi/pan_ characters. Of course it would be wrong to market them as lesbian stories if that's whats happening. However two women together doesn't equal lesbian, just w/w... Maybe it's just bad wording idk. I understand that there's a lack of lesbian representation but bi representation is not the problem if that makes sense
im glad someone else said this. i feel like im maybe misunderstanding something because i know it sucks to not have books about wlw use the word lesbian but the bisexuals are Not the problem here
Two female being together sexually is lesbianism. If it's a story about two fictional women being sexually engaged with one another, that's lesbian fiction. The point of the video is that lesbian fiction isn't relatable as real like straight and gay romances...
Agreed 100%
This video and comment section reek of biphobia, couldn’t get through the video because of it
One of my favorite sapphic romances is "If tomorrow doesn't come" by Jen St Jude. This book isn't just a sapphic romance, but it explores subjects like Undiagnosed depression, homophobia, suicide,etc... i HIGHLY recommend it.
4:53
I think that it would be good to have both representation. I think that the representation of women who are mostly dating men, and then eventually find out their sexuality is very valid. It is something that happens in real life. It’s something I’ve experience with women I’ve dated, and it’s some thing I’ve seen my friends go through. Where they genuinely thought they were straight for a long time until they find someone and they’re like wow maybe I’m not as straight as I thought I was? Also male Exs causing an issue, some thing I’ve also experienced personally in my relationships with women. I think stories like that are important, because female sexuality has often been so repressed to the point that women don’t even know what they actually want. Since they never even had a moment to think about it, because of all the oppression that happens. Especially in other parts of the world, where it is even worse than America.(if you’re even American, I don’t know if you’re Canadian)
I think it can be harmful to the community as a whole to say well that’s not realistic. It may not be realistic for you, but it is something that people really do go through. Especially since the experiences of queer women as a whole are so varied. I think that there should be more representation of all kinds of queer women. But that doesn’t mean the existing representation shouldn’t happen. It’s just that we need more.
Also, when you start to say most of them are all lesbians. That’s interesting because in my experience most of the time I’ve seen women dating each other, where I live, they are pansexual or bisexual. Every single woman I’ve ever dated, has been bi or pan. I’ve never even dated a lesbian.
5:21
We not invalidate other queer peoples experiences? Everyone’s experience is valid, and everyone deserves some kind of representation. But to ask for more representation, while shitting on other queer people is so sad.....
Side note : Even in the comments where I’m seeing other people talk about how they detest femme and femme rep is sad.... I think a big reason why we see more of that now, is because it used to be more butch x butch rep. My first experiences understanding what a gay woman was people talking about butch women. I vividly remember seeing that as my first representations on TV too. So that’s where I think maybe it comes from? Maybe some of these people legitimately wanted femme and femme rep.
that last paragraph 👏👏
I agree with your entire comment!! For a lot of queer women, the book represents their experiences. To say these books are unrealistic seems a little harsh. So thank you for the validation!
People want to see characters who are already confident in their sexuality, not people who just hopped off the boat of dating men. Sorry.
@@bubbles4897 I think you missed the point of the comment. That’s not what she was saying.
Hopped off the boat....? Do you forget bisexuality / pansexuality exists???
It would be nice if we had all types of rep. No need to shit on a valid experience many people go thru. I personally enjoy the “finding out I’m queer “ romance be it mlm ,wlw ,etc. it’s cute. Often has the miscommunication trope which I like in fiction.@@bubbles4897
i plan to finish this video but i’m an indian lesbian and i exclusively only try to read lesbian books when it has romance in it. i agree there are lack of lesbian characters in books but what gets me more upset than lack of lesbian representation is a lack of diversity within bisexual AND lesbian sapphics (forgive me idk if there is a better word for this). it’s hard to read about people of color in the lesbian romance genre & that’s the truth. there is also a lack of reflection or nuance represented in what makes bisexual and lesbian experiences unique. in order for me to get these things i have to read contemporary literary fiction focused on lesbians or bisexual sapphics understanding their identity (which are good to read btw) but i don’t get any of those feelings from lesbian romance books. it’s a shame some of the best lesbian romance i have read are subplots in their books but they are not the main focus of the genre aka stuff like lit fiction or fantasy.
i feel like the people who write these romance novels don’t give these characters any traits other than “oh this person is a lesbian or this person is bisexual” and i can’t connect with a shell of a character. it’s really upsetting because i enjoy lesbian romance media the most. it’s unfortunate that there is ao3 fanfic out there that captures lesbian romance more than traditionally published books.
also for some of the comments about bisexual fems; i don’t think the poster is saying two bi fems in a relationship isn’t realistic, but it’s weird for a genre such as LESBIAN romance to have underrepresentation of lesbians. personally in my life, the bi fems ik date each other bc there aren’t many lesbians in my area (i only know one other) and even i am in a relationship with a bi woman; but to have a genre called lesbian romance and not represent lesbians in it is crazy. additionally, i don’t think these books truly even write bisexual characters accurately either so if they don’t represent lesbian or bisexual sapphics who is this genre for? anyways im excited to finish this video and this is a really good topic to discuss.
i totally agree with you! When reading, i generally get the feeling that a lot of experiences are just not relatable, as culture plays a huge role in our lives. I have read a lot of fanfic that are loads better than most lesbian novels at understanding how lesbians work. I think the problem is that a lot of these authors are bi, but have never been in an wlw relationship.
I’ve been trying to put this into words for so long!! this is spot on
I'm a guy, so it was nice to get a woman's perspective on this topic. From what you said in the video, I think you'd like "The Care and Feeding of Waspish Widows". It's historical, kind of butch x fem (one of the characters crossdresses a lot) and really, really sweet.
I think Last Night at the telegraph club is one of the only lesbian romances I actually loved, and I keep looking for something like that. But when I look up recommendations people are always talking about the same books (which I suppose is fair since I dont think there are that many being published)
@@bacchiguu86 ohh I'm gonna look into that, thanks! Tbh I'm not even a huge historical fiction, any well written book will do 🥹
Tipping the Velvet! If you haven’t read it
@@bacchiguu86 Its not a romance per se but Cantoras by Caro De Robertis is historical (1970s Uruguay) and has 5 sapphic main characters and some spicy scenes
@ville__ if you feel like you could choose to be gay you’re probably bisexual 😂
Edit: oh wait nvm it’s a bot I’m a dumbass
@@caitlind4220 cantoras looks insanely good, thank you!
I’m so happy I found this video because I honestly felt like maybe I was being lesbophobic by not liking a lot of “lesbian” romances I’ve read. This video has put some of my gnawing feelings into words. Hopefully we get something better but in the meantime I guess I gotta get reading on those YA titles you mentioned.
I’m glad to reassure you!! Hope you enjoy :) thank you for watching
try Our Wives under the Sea, wlw gothic body cosmic horror lit fic, incredible read 10/10
you guys need to read more indie lesbian romances! so many butch/masc, fat, poc, older, neurodivergent characters, and even love interests or main characters in different sexual spectrums, mainly lesbian. discovering indie f/f romances is life-changing! i know they should make them more mainstream, but y'all should support smaller authors.
This, thank you, I think this is the entire problem here, they are reading mainstream publishers, and lesbians just don't sell as well as bisexual, simply by numbers.
Love this video ALSO your fit? The accessories and lip colour?! AMAZING COORDINATION!!
There are certainly several issues at play. I personally dont have issues with bi MCs but i do hate the lack of racial, gender expression, cultural, and relationship type diversity in lesbian romance. It can be extremely boring. Just changing those 3 things can truly elevate so many books. I have a top 5 list of recent ones I liked a lot:
-Ask, Tell by EJ Noyes
-Guava Flavored Lies by JJ Arias
-Her Royal Happiness by Lola Keely
-Three Reasons to Say Yes by Jaime Clevenger
-Love Among the Ruins by Catherine Maoirisi
Most of them have masculine presenting love interests. All have different dynamics and situations that really stood out to me beyond the usual tropes.
However, as a Black reader, I wish there was more representation. There may have been 3 books I read last year with a black MC but they either had a white love interest or the love interest was only gay for them. Very depressing prospects.
thank u for this vid 😩😩 i’ve been feeling like this for so long and i feel so alone bc everyone raves abt these books but they just fall flat to me!!
Thank YOU for sharing that my points resonated with you!!
I do agree with a lot of your points here, but I do feel a bit weird about how the opener for the issues is "there's so many bisexual women" as a bisexual nonbinary person myself that tends to present fem, I don't even tend to read fxm or fxf because neither usually appeal to me with how their written. A huge issue tends to be writing in general of these writers just not knowing how to build up characters or romances properly. I get wanting to have maybe bisexual characters that realize they're actually lesbians, that happens a lot as people explore their sexualities. I also know many lesbians that dated men before realizing they were a lesbian. framing at he beginning an issue being bisexuals was just a bit... Well kind of mean. Because it's not like a person like me is being appealed to either with bad writing, bad characters, and a lack of gender and sexual exploration. Generally an issue with straight romances tends to be abusive men framed as sexy when they truly are just planks of abusive boring wood. while an issue that tends to come up when reading Sapphic romances tends to be this sort of very surface level basic writing of two women. Often it feels like it's meant to appeal to men with a lesbian fetish or straight women that are wondering about their sexuality instead of actual Sapphic people. the "we can't have a hard butch woman because straight men might not like it" vibes. And just a general disinterest of writing about real romantic and sexual tension in leu of very safe fem x fem romances. the same can often be seen in a lot of tv shows that have two very normal attractive women making out with each other. it never feels like it's made for lesbians or bisexual women. to me it often feels like the writers are not confident with their writing, either from a lack of experience, or a fear of taking risks. often you'll see these things written well by much more indie writers, but often highly recommended books either feel incredibly boring with fxf romances, or incredibly uncomfortable and abusive with mxf writing. there's just such an issue with romance right now that is so frustrating. so many of the top writers right now in the genre feel so entirely drenched with the white and male gaze. even in queer spaces it often feels like there's this need for characters to be 'presentable,' and if it's advertising that they're not, then instead it's just showing two women that are generally awful with each other. to me i think one of the issues comes down to there's a lot of people thinking romance books is more of a get rich quick scheme than an art and want to make a quick buck pumping out some boring middle of the road slop as fast as possible instead of actually spending time to make something they're truly proud of as a piece of art.
THANK YOU SUNNY!! it's so important to me to see someone speaking out about things i've noticed in contemporary lesbian romances too. ashley herring blake specifically has pissed me off with the way she portrays lesbian relationships and how she writes it, and the "masc representation" in the second book being literally hesitant, like you can see that she didn't actually want to write an accurate representation of a gnc person in a lesbian relationship, and her fear of the word "Lesbian" was noticeable from the start.
recently i had an experience with a lesbian book that made me swear off of contemporary lesbian fiction altogether. the book Never Ever Getting Back Together by Sophie Gonzales is a lesbian romance, featuring two bisexual women, who fall in love in a reality dating show their ex invited them and his other exes too. the entire book is a joke and mockery, everything centers around the ex, a MAN, and their relationship is centered around HIm, i repeat, A MAN. it's supposed to be an enemies to lovers because >>>> he cheated on one of them with the other. every single thing about it doesn't make sense and sounds like a book written for straight ppl. i only finished the book to have the property to speak about how insulting that was, a book that does not pass the bechdel test shouldn't be considered lesbian literature. there's also the fact the throughout the entire book they go on dates and kiss the MAN????? honestly i can't even talk about that book without my blood boiling. if that's what contemporary lesbian romance is i fear we're back in the trenches again. i hope sophie gonzales doesn't ever write another "Lesbian" book ever again
Ok, but it seems like with the WLW people are looking for “Gold Stars” that aren’t there. As an adult if you’re a lesbian that’s dated a man, you can bring up your ex in the same a lesbian that’s dated a woman can bring up an ex. Even holding fiction lesbians to a “Gold Star Standard” does more harm than good.
I agree that there needs to be more true butch, but people regardless are still allowed to be “feminine”. Eyeliner and Mascara are genderless. In the example “Astrid Parker Doesn’t Fail” Jordan is going to meet her family to be on T.V. a situation where everyone is going to be wearing makeup regardless.
WLW is being held to higher standard than MLM because in two of the biggest shows/series in the MLM spectrum the main couple is a gay and bisexual.
But you’re holding side characters to a higher position. They’re the side charters who are written to help move the plot along, that’s all they are. If there’s more to be developed, there’s a new book. If they’re just there? They’re just there. It’d been like giving the guy Isabella from Encanto a whole backstory. Some characters are just secondary/side characters.
*for clarification the “you””yours” and “you are” are generalized and not to be strictly directed aSunnybooknook.