Bosch CP4 vs CP3 High Pressure Fuel Pump Comparison
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- Being a former high-performance engine development engineer at Cummins has given Luke Langellier insight on why some OEs went to the Bosch CP4 high pressure fuel pump and why others did not. Join Luke in the S&S Diesel Motorsport fuel lab as he explains the shortcomings of the CP4 high pressure fuel pump and why it is prone to failure, and why the CP3 is a rock solid pump for retrofitting.
#SSfueled - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Just had my Y78 recall completed. I was aware of the lifter rotating but never about it seizing. Good video explaining how the failures of the CP4 could occur.
Best video still in 2023!!!!!! THANKS!!!
Thank you. The content is good, but the production quality is lackluster. It was one of our first videos and we've since invested in much better studio equipment. We really appreciate the compliment.
I have 2020 RAM Cummins with a cp3 pump , glad to hear your over view as it is contrary to what I was told. I was under the impression the cp3 was the bad guy and the cp4 was the replacement. Great video Thanks.
What a great informative video! Thank you!
great job, sure would like to see a tear down of the denso fuel pump
Thank you. Just what I was looking for
Good informative video. Thank you. Subscribed!
Great explanation...thanks...
thanks, tell us more about your upgrades and conversions.
Great insight, coming in late, but have a 2017 6.7 powerstroke. Very interested in the latest Gen 2 DPK solution.
Great info, thank you 🙏🏻
Excellent Video! Thanks!
Thanks man, helped me to decide
Thank you for the video
Thanks Luke! Great info! 2021 Wrangler JL 3.0L ecoDiesel on recall.
Great honest video.
excellent
This pump is similar to Cummins High presure pump , ISG model, except that its plunger springs are different.
I've had a similar pump with failure from Delphi. Air managed to enter the fuel line and the pump didnt have any lubrication for a few seconds at the end i also had to replace all of my 3 injectors on my 1.2 TDI
outstanding video. I suppose (haven't done this yet) you can simply tell what pump is on a truck (example RAM or Powerstroke) simply by the appearance..those 2 look very different on the table, I hope I can tell when I look under the hood?
Wow, i just learned me something new.
Good info you got New suscriber 👍👍👍
my 2021 EcoDiesel Wrangler is at the dealership now. Will be looked at on Wednesday. Fuel Filter assembly started leaking fuel from near the lines. I drained and took the cover off and found metal in fuel and cover. I'm guessing the metal from the pump made it's way back in the return. It was driving fine, 22mpg pulling my army trailer. I had just made a trip from Michigan to South Dakota and I noticed the leak when I got back home. Been waiting on the recall, I hope the high heat out west wasn't a factor. But I never used any fuel additive, because the manual said not too. I was aware of the issue with these pumps, but was afraid if I used an additive, and something did happen, they would deny coverage because of additives.
Can you explain the rebuild of the cp3 valve? Are shims added to make the valve tight to the cylinder?
It's like they designed it to fail
IKR it’s jacked up.
Reliable products doesnt make money.
Stealership design
Ya but they were hoping to at least get out of warranty before it failed, they over did it.
👍👏 Thank you!
Would it be possible to add a filter after the pump and before the rails ?
Bosch really screwed up big time with the CP4.
I will never buy any vehicle with a CP4 on it.
Does anyone know if the exergy fuel system saver metering valve will help protect your fuel system?
New subscriber... What are your thoughts on diesel additives like the diesel kleen and motorcraft pm 22a
I know some people have an issue - but a lot of them are user induced. I have a few trucks with CP4’s, 160k on my 6.7L powerstroke. That being said, PTT has scared me enough that I am going to have him put one of your kits on!! Hahah
Thank you!
Didnt they upgrade the cp4 in the 15+ powerstroke with better coating on the pistons n rollers and more fuel volume? I haven't heard of many issues in the later years.
I had hope of cleaning the tank until i saw this😌 have metal in system, not much. But its there
Want to upgrade to cp3, new injectors, rail, pump. But was hoping to clean tank, a new tank its quite alot😔
But thank you for the awsome video, really informative😊
Hello, it is possible to somehow prevent this issue? Like rebuild or some sort?
Hello SS Fueled, Can you share with me the documentation about CP4?
Can you swap the cp4 for cp3 in 2016 power stroke? I know there is the disaster prevention kit but I’d rather just replace the pump and have no issues.
Do all the CP4 pumps have cams without guides ? What a crazy design. I have a 2017 . Is that what I have ?
Is Howes fuel treatment a good additive for like a 2016 with the cp4
What about the upgraded version of CP4?
Hi! So VW Tdis also use the cp4... And darkside developments makes a cp3 conversion. Besides the point- according to their testing the cp4 was only good for 380 hp ish on a 3.0tdi with stock injectors. And in their experience the cp3 will go over 400 stock injectors. Obviously in US diesels with over double the displacement folks are taking these pumps WAY past that. Is this a difference in pumps? Or is it more a factor of "x" fuel at "x" pressure can only go through 6 cyls so fast- where the US diesels using these have more cylinders with larger injectors.
Is there a way to install the CP3 in a 3.0 Eco-diesel engine in the Jeep Wrangler??
With 02 LB7 cp3 with 208000 my pressure rating is about 13500 to 14500 injectors was changed about 3 years ago now changing pump rails and pressure regulator would you think it will fix low pressure problem. I’m use to old cats so this is new to me
thank you for really informative vid. What would you suggest for a stock California 2013 GMC 2500 LML less than 40K miles that has no obvious issues? trying to be proactive of a well taken care of truck. Seems to be a lot of talk about lift pumps, cp3 conversions or combination of both...
@@SSfueled thanks for the reply, already tracked down the california legal version had it shipped here and installed by PPE in Montclair CA... they would make an excellent dealer for you guys here in SoCal where there are a shit ton of stock LML's that have no idea about this problem yet and you are the only legal solution. I actually own a custom shop and tried to purchase resale via dealers listed by your company, all were a pain in the ass it was easier to buy online from you.... maybe sign on a legit distribution company like transamerican wholesale hell even PPE could do it as a manufacture of diesel truck parts out here? anyway, great product so far 3 weeks in!
Is there such thing as a cp3 conversation kit for a 6.7 Powerstroke?
Hi, I would appreciate you so much if you make a short list of cars which have CP3 fuel pump. Sedan or SUVs. I can't find that information online and I'm trying to buy a car with CP3 on it.
Could a Fass or Airdog help prevent failure?
Finally, after waiting for the Y78 recall work for my own 2019 Dodge Cummins 6.7L, it has now been completed.
I travel between Gresham and Central Oregon, and must pass through an area with no cell phone service.
I've been crossing my fingers each time.
Hopefully, I can now made the trek without worrying about a failure!
And by the way, what were they thinking when they designed that CP-4 pump?
When you watch the video, you should be able to see that the CP-3 design was a much better design.
A tiny roller tip cam follower, with nothing to prevent rotation....... geez!
Why haven’t ford recalled them got mine done 19 ram 51,000 miles nice recall on there dime
Great video. What do you know about the cp pumps that are in the 2.0 TDI’s Volkswagen uses? Does anyone know the differences between the pumps used in a heavier application like trucks vs cars? Are they a smaller pump or just different volume outputs?
Many of the smaller engines use a CP4.1, which is a one-plunger variant of the CP4.2m (two plungers) used in the light-duty trucks.
Had mine blow. Finally got my truck back. What can I do to help this problem from happening again. Will a lift pump help? I know do a cp3 swap but warranty wouldn’t allow it.
Thanks for the information. How are the Denso Pumps on the L5P's holding up? Are they a good pump?
@@SSfueled Thank you, your professional opinion is appreciated and valued.
I have a 2019 L5 P, Only 10 months old commercial Long distance use. High pressure fuel pump let me down already the code says it's the pressure regulator. Truck idle smooth but won't even move rail pressure drops to about 1500 PSI. And fluctuates sporadically.
130000 miles on the truck, Going to replace the entire Fuel pump, But my hopes are grim for this system in the future as I drive a 140000 miles a year.
I'm not sure if I made a major mistake by not buying Dodge instead of GM
Do the new Dodge trucks use the CP3 or the CP4 ?
Also, is it possible to simply add a fuel filter on each of the lines coming out of the pump ?
I have a 2017 Ford with the 6.7. A friend has a number of Dodge trucks and is buy new ones.
Does your disaster prevention kit contain any filters ?
Great video. On the CP4 pump have you seen failures with the Exergy Fuel Saver valve installed ? If so has this valve helped protect the rest of the system?
SS Fueled Thank you for getting back to me. I have a 2011 Silverado LML with 149k on it. I do have the duramaxtuner tunes installed with the Fass 165. All
Emissions intact , stock turbo and stock injectors . What would be the best CP3 to go with if and when I need to? . Or is it okay to stick with the CP4? I live in Ca.
Thank you..
@@SSfueled what is the difference between a compliant cp3 swap kit and a non compliant cp3? One requires EGR to be removed correct? Why?
Can i change cp4 to cp3 in my audi a4 2009 2.0 tdi?
Why use the fixed long metal roller? Why not use a ball type roller? In my mind I can see a ball type, similiar to how the ball was/is used on a computer mouse. If the bucket turns, no big deal then. Thoughts?
Same conclusion has on my videos. Surface area of that came design is flawed. I have once that the followed spun 90 degrees. Way more damage than those you showed. Cp3 most often dies alone as the fuel path is much different
Has anyone tried the CP4.2 Fuel Reroute Disaster Prevention Kit - Powerstroke 6.7L sold on Engineered Diesel .com ?? It supposedly blocks the little hole from the lower and reroutes it back to fuel tank and feeds top in straight off the secondary filter feeding the high pressure pump to begin with.
They have a CZcams video on it and looks to be a better fix however it will only save the injectors and engine. Both Pumps and fuel tanks and lines can still be contaminated due to HP pump failure. Any one tried this???
I saw the CP4 concerns a couple of years ago, but was told the chances were slim it would happen. Well, it happened to me 2 days ago (99,750 mi) and looking at a $10K repair bill, but will not be replacing with a CP4. Looking to install a CP3 conversion. If you have a CP4, don't think it won't happen to you even if you do maintenance religiously. If you don't want to change the pump, you'd better change your fuel filter every 6-12 months, not every 2 years as GM recommends and that still may not save it.
every two years ? definitely wouldn't wait that long. i usually replace everything after 7000 miles and that's on my 12v constantly pulling and on job sites hauling tools and equipment in dusty conditions.
@@jakeguajardo8624i just do highway driving from location to the next, change my cat fuel filters on lift pump every 2k miles
I have a 2011 Duramax would you put a CP3 or a CP4.2 when I replace it before it takes a 💩.?.
dammit! my used 2010 I just got has an LGH(detuned LML) so I have the first version that inherited the CP4 engine killer!
It's an 81.0mm3 fuel rate... I wonder if maybe that is a clue I might have a CP3?
though I know the CP3 can push to 800hp vs the CP4 525hp...
So I'm curious if that is a "Exergy Inlet Metering Valve(MPROP)"? If so was it installed on the CP4 when it failed? Further, did it prevent contamination of the fuel rail and injectors when the CP4 failed? Thanks for your time.
Great question. That is a stock metering valve in the video. We have yet to receive a CP4 in for inspection that has had the Exergy metering valve (25 micron screen) installed, so we can't confirm one way or the other if it actually prevents contamination. Based on our debris analysis from a failed CP4, 55.57 percent of the total debris volume was under 24.1 micron. That is why we choose to block off fuel flow from the case and feed the metering valve directly from the stage 2 fuel filter, which is what our Disaster Prevention Kit does.
Thank you Luke! Since RAM will not have a fix for this until early 2022, can we use a fuel additive to help with the lubrication? Maybe this will hold it off until the recall is completed. By the way, we have a 2020 RAM 5500.
Thanks
-john
@@SSfueled Thank you. Not sure they will do the right thing yet...so I'm not going to hold my breath. How can I look and identify my High Pressure Fuel Pump to be sure which model I have? If I do have the defective CP4, can you give me the part number for the NoTune RAM CP3 Conversion Kit that would work with my 2020 RAM 5500?
@@SSfueled Truck owners are getting reimbursed from RAM on this recall for replacement/conversions but the issue is will they still honor the fuel system warranty?
@@SSfueled I hope I'm wrong and perhaps over time we will know more re: warranty. FWIW, if Cummins copied your design then I think I'd be a bit pissed off unless you're being compensated appropriately.
How exactly do you change the flow so it doesn't grenade everything downstream?
Can this retrofit be used for BMW N57 , 6 cylinder Diesel engines?
Question. We had the recall work done on our 2019. By any chance, would this cause a drop in mpg while towing?
We can't comment on the OE CP3 conversion kit offered by Cummins because we haven't tested it. The S&S NoTune CP3 conversion kit does not affect MPG or emissions in any way. In theory, the OE kit should be the same. Our pump matches the output curve of the CP4 and does not require any ECU calibration. It may be worth asking the dealership if an ECU reflash was part of the recall.
Cp4.20 is reliable and updated pump. Second thought of getting new 2020 ram 3500, with cp4. Hv 18 ram 2500, very reliable.,but want to tow 5th wheel. Hv to change vehicle.
@@SSfueled okay tnx my bad cp4.2, I thought 2.0.
@@SSfueled how much for conversion kit?
are cp4.2 any better. I have a 2019 ram 2500 diesel that i believe has the cp4.2
@@SSfueled Is there a CP3 conversion kit for a 2019 Cummins and do you recommend converting the CP4.2 to a CP3?
Great video! I have '16 Cummins, MM3, air box, exhaust. I bought the truck with 17K on it. Oil level was about an inch over full, when I took delivery, I just figure someone doesn't know how much oil it takes, so I changed it, twice, NOW with 28k on it, oil level is up about 1/4"! It's defiantly "making oil", what are the chances the cp3 pump is leaking fuel into the crankcase? Thanks in advance!
Had. My fuel filter changed on my CP4. Unfortunately the gasket I had to seal it in the canister failed and air got in there starving the high pressure fuel pump. Because of that, I immediately found metal shavings in the filter canister area immediately after trying to turn it over two times. What an absolutely unreliable mess
Question , so on your opinion exergy fpr for lml duramax will save fuel system you think ? I just removed my fpr2 and small metal shavings on the screen ;( I am afraid even to touch fpr1 cause if I c metal there ( most likely) I will need to swap it to cp3
The Exergy FCA is an upgrade from stock, yet our CP4 particle analysis study showed significant debris that was under 20 micron. If you are finding small metal debris on the DRV screen, then that metal has made it into your rail and injectors. Testing the injectors for high return is the best way to know for sure. We can do that for you if you send an email to info@ssdiesel.com.
What difference between cp4 L and R rotation and can I use L if my car original have R?
@@SSfueled thanks, that very helpful. I gona use no gear pump and upgrading from R85 to L99
Will the cp3 work to replace cp4 in a gladiator ecodeisel 3.0? Cheaper to replace n9w than wait for a catastrophic event.
A standard rotation CP3 will not turn the correct way on an EcoDiesel. In theory, a reverse rotation CP3 could work, but we have not explored a retrofit kit. It would require many custom parts, lines, and pump modifications to make it work correctly. We may develop a disaster prevention kit for the EcoDiesel in the future.
can i replace the CP4 camshaft by the CP3 camshaft or isn’t possible ? thanks in advance.
The pump designs are completely different and parts are not interchangeable.
Is there any diffren witch hole to the outlet rail on backside 3 holes?
All three outlet valves feed into a connected internal drilling that is a full rail pressure. It is possible to move the outlet fitting to any of the three valves, but it is crucial to make sure all three valves have ONE check ball each. The tiny ceramic ball has a tendency to fall out when changing fitting locations.
@@SSfueled thanks for thath info..i was not sure because i only reach just above 1000bar ..but maybe regulator in the rail is the problem..i hope..
My cp3 pump seems to have volume and pressure, and then sometimes it doesn't? What is going on in the pump?
Just took mine apart, had water contamination, one of the pistons got stuck in the closed position from wear on the shaft. The spring was fully compressed and valve was stuck in that position
@@mikejohnson7768 wow. I got a remanded pump, this is only showing 126.psi, I even blocked off yhe injector lines. I'm thinking my fuel pressure sensor is bad? Any guesses? I did a little multimeter test on it and the signal wire with the sensor connected only had .21 volts. It's suppose to have .5 volts. I don't have a gauge to hook rt up to the pump. Also, if I put the key in the on position to activate the fuel pump in the tank I get a stream of fuel when opening up the rail. Is this right? Some ppl said yes, others said no
Will anyone build a cp3 bottom end for a cp4?
Great idea, and one that we have considered. It would require a complete redesign, rather than internal modifications of the base CP4 parts. If you can fit a CP3 in the vehicle, that is the best option, which is why we offer conversion kits for the LML Duramax and 19-20 Cummins. A CP3 will not fit in the valley of a 6.7 Power Stroke, and that is where a better high-pressure pump is needed, and in our opinion, a completely new design would be better than a CP3/CP4 hybrid. We're currently exploring all options and could have a better solution in the future.
With the new Cummins 6.7 2500 2019
What to look for in these engine to keep up with and not have problems
@@SSfueled when can we expect the conversion kit for a 2019/2020 ram 6.7 Cummins H.O. 3500 to be out?
@@SSfueled I'm considering selling my 12' and getting a 19' or 20' so glad to hear you're getting it done! I'm assuming whatever you come up with will be able to work with a stock truck and also tunable for us HP junkies?
SS Fueled Have you guys had the ram 2019 pumps apart? They claim that they’re not the same cp4. Is this true?
i plan to put a cp3 in my jetta
Dark side diesel does a conversion.
Does anyone know what percentage of these CP4 pumps go bad? I got 2012 HD Silverado Duramax and just don’t know if I should keep the truck or trade that POS in!?
My CP4 went up on my ‘16 lml. 59,000 miles all stock
Chris Boone did u ever add any lubricator additive to your fuel
No just ran diesel
My 2011 Duramax just let go with a $10K repair bill. Chevy dealership wanted to replace with another CP4 pump. Uh uh. Ain't happening. Going to a CP3 conversion like you say.
Their "Progression through technique" has just turned into "Regression through technique". The new generation of engineers is disastrous.
is it possible to retrofit cp3 pump on bmw 120d e87 with no issue at all?
We're not familiar with the engine used in that model. Is it an N47?
@@SSfueled yes
What a shame, how many diesel owners have suffered, is Bosch being held responsible for these losses?
It is ashame, as a Duramax LML owner that my truck has exited warranty at they end of July(also a GM certified dealer trained technician) I am currently looking into the aftermarket Fleece helper "lift" pump that installs into the factory location in the fuel tank and retains all of the GM electrical connectors and lines OR you can "add on" the upgraded lines and AN fittings for higher volume and higher and steadier pressures along with the option to install a seperate return (that is similar to the "Ford disaster prevention kit") supposedly with installing this aftermarket pump in the tank this will help the CP4 pump to avoid any starvation of fuel created in the tank due to another poor design that causes the CP4 pump to strain itself and cause the "entire fuel system failure" of death that in turn cost the customers 10K or more in Parts and Labor. I am willing to try this Fleece pump option and add a external fuel monitoring gauge onto the system that I can either set up to read digitally on some sort of aftermarket controller or connect it manually to a digital to the tenth PSI gauge inside the cab along with a few other modifications that will allow me to monitor boost pressure because with this new fangled biden EPA RPM ACT we as consumers are no longer allowed to add any type of upgraded and or modified exhaust system to help prolong engine life and let it breath properly without serious consequences to both the consumer and or parts supplier which in turn has made finding the upgraded downpipe along with a 4 or 5 inch downpipe back exhaust system (or particulate filter "DELETE" kit) which is total horseshit considering that the cost of these extremely unnecessary engine chokers is ridiculous and all a money racket for the government along with the DEF fluid that we must install to continue driving these Emission slave controlled diesels on a daily basis!!..I believe if they want us to keep these things blowing our urea from the tailpipes(which go ahead and get DEF fluid on anything and see the affects both short and longterm) that the GOV'T should be responsible for the warranty and cost of replacing these unnecessary items when they fail. Look at the balance scale of pros vs cons of the entire emission compliant systems and fluids from start to end of the production process to the disposal process and the amount of waste created from all the plastics wrappers, containers and paper wasted and contaminated for all this DEF and Part for the systems when built and also when replaced during the life of these vehicles.......This is a dictatorship of a country we are beginning to live in with NO rights or FREEDOM!
Did a cp3 swap on my 2019 ram now it'll idle fine for about 15 minutes then fuel rail psi will max out and start knocking its ass off then truck will miss and idle fine for 15 minutes then repeat....so much for a no tuning required pump
why not they use water separator on these vehicle
Now I understand why everyone calls the CP4 pump a backward design.
Why can’t somebody design a cp4 pump with the same materials and idea of the CP3 pump?
Nice video 👌 or jankari ke liye subscribe kre #mechanicbrother
Espe apko har jankari mile gi
wait.. they are lubricated by fuel? why?
In adequate quantity and within its temperature range, diesel fuel is a good lubricant.
EPA mandated.. that American refineries remove sulfur to almost ZERO....hence failures.. P.S. adding 2 stroke oil will not help... it will not get through the fuel filter... FORD also install this piece of garbage....pump
CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT is what it sounds like
RAM is replacing all the CP4.2 pumps with CP3.3 retrofit kits.
So you go from a superior design to an inferior design? Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it...
worn-out components is the result of missing lubrication. Run your engine without oil on diesel fuel and see how your bearing will look like.
no excuses for a aluminium bore
Why would Bosch re-invent the wheel with that pot metal POS CP-4. Those idiots over there most likely decided it was way cheaper to cast and machine that POS aluminium CP4 case and never considered the importance of keeping those rollers oriented against that cam and the steel lifters from grinding away at the aluminium walls. Corporate greed must be Bosch's priority these days. I am going to stay away from anything with their crap from now on.
I’m sure the OEM’s were squeezing Bosch on price also.
Don't these designers test their products and to find these failures?
That doesnt make money haha
So the real problem is the hard facing of the steel is breaking down under the extreme pressure of the pump. You guys redesigned the CP3, with the 10mm larger case. Do you have the billion dollar answer yet? Somebody’s going to build it. I’m believing God will favor your company!
Thank you for the kind words. We merely added stroke to the CP3 with a custom cam. The design and forged body are still the same, which was designed by Bosch. We can't take credit for the CP3s strength, but we do have a pretty good grasp on the strengths and weaknesses of various common rail fuel systems. We're working on alternatives to the CP4, but we do not have a solid timeline. We hope you're right!
And these new diesels almost cost $80 grand.... so they install a cheaper pump. This includes ford... oops... ford never shafts the truck owner.... or don't they?
So in other words get a CP3 if you can. CP4 has a high failure rate
looks like it's profitable for car makers to make disposable cars that break after 5years, so you buy a new one.
Unless you ran that pump completely out of fuel, and burn it up from Low fuel pressure from your Lift pump. CP3 injector pumps are diehards and won’t go out. That just somebody selling your pump. And then I bet you a little while later are you going for injectors and then your problems all done. And fixed I know a guy that raise three kids through from kindergarten to 12th grade in a private Catholic school working for. Dodge and on the Cummings turbo diesel. Since they came out in dodge trucks and his whole time I’ve ever working on it he’s replaced one CP3 so that tells you something no if you’re not getting at least 12 minimum if not you should be higher more like 15 to 16 PSI‘s too Your injector pump
The CP4 is garbage! Ram is experiencing a huge number of failed CP4's, which cause $15k - $24k in damage to the engine, and require a complete overhaul to repair. Ram went back to the CP3 for the 2021 model year, to avoid further issues. Still though, Ram is refusing to initiate a recall... and the lawsuits are piling up.
Ram is beginning to pay the price for running this junk CP4 pump. What a shame.
I will never get a truck with a cp4 or 10 spees transmission. Very unreliable and extremely expensive to fix. Do your self a favor if you have one, sell it before you run out of warranty.