I am experimenting with a new tube release method. It involves brushing on a coat of melted paraffin wax on the aluminum tube. So far so good. First I melted a basic candle. Then I brushed on a smooth layer of the wax. The wax coating appears to be plenty thick enough to act as a barrier between the epoxy composite and the aluminum tube. The next step requires you to lay up all the layers of the composite tube and wrap them in peel-ply, absorbent material and lastly shrink-fit tape. After the new composite tube has hardened fully, you pour boiling water through the aluminum tube repeatedly. (This will melt the wax barrier, and it ought to give you a very easy release.).
Food grade silicon (petroleum free) can be used as inexpensive but very effective release agent that makes the use of a Mylar film unnecessary. Your mandrel has to be nearly perfectly smooth though. If using aluminum, using dry ice inside the tubing will shrink the tubing making releasing the mandrel much easier once the resin has cured These are techniques I use for laying up Kevlar for various purposes
Good point and something one should watch out for. I don't remember if it did, but I never used that tube. In later videos one can see that I spray the release when the mandrel is on my turning jig so I don't accidentally touch it before I wrap and the spray direction is 180 degrees away from the wet-out table.
Have you tried just maintaining a temperature around 70'C during the curing cycle and using common mold release products. The aluminium tube has a large expansion coefficient relative to carbon and when cooled down can be easily removed. (most times).
Yep, does not work. The way I show requires max physical force to remove. If one does a wrap loose enough to slid off the way you suggest, then there will be voids in the layup. Commercially made tubing is done much like you describe, but they use a multi-ton hydraulic press to remove the tube from the mandrel.
hello I have and am enjoying this tube tutorials I am looking to make a Carbon fiber Handle for my metal detecting sand scoop. , My OD is 1.22 and I am wondering how thick I will need to make the tubes wall thickness,, Thanks in advance
Well, one can't know that answer without having the weights and moment arms of the entire system. But for what you are doing, all that engineering is not really necessary. If your solution fails, nobody dies, you just waste some time and materials. I assume you want to make the system lighter - a worthy goal. So, I'd recommend you review the video link at the end of this reply. I'd use one inner layer of 120 style fiberglass and one outer layer of the same cloth. It will be very light and strong and be highly resistant to crushing in your hand. Link: czcams.com/video/U6LCe81j3eM/video.html
When you say oven, what exactly do you mean? What is a good oven choice and average price range? Do you use any vacuum bagging? Thank you for sharing the process, I loved all the extra tips you offered.
I'll go backwards and answer the last question first. I have found that if you vacuum bag the tubing the cloth will buckle in many places. Is is simply due to the high resin content of a hand layup. As the bag compresses, there is nowhere for the "excess" cloth and resin to go so it buckles. Now for the first question. Quick answer, please view the follwoing video: czcams.com/video/oq5FbH2VAqY/video.html
@@KlingbergWingMkII Thank you for the reply and further explanation. Your oven is awesome! Subscribing and looking forward to more content. Great stuff.
can you tell us about the shrink film and what to get. What you are showing seems to be alot less money than buying shrink tape. I want buy this film you are using here as shrink film. Please elaborate on the window shrink film and how to get it. Thank you.
The oven part is a bit of downer, while the rest of the video is fascinating. "Cheap" is only valid if you're intending to make tubes on a very regular basis with the oven involved. I'm looking to make two ruddersticks (60 inch long) for a sailboat, but as an exceptional build. Building an oven first leads me back to the regular shop unfortunately :-) Is the over mandatory actually? Especially if you're working with several layers as strength is more important than weight?
Given no oven, you'd be better off using aluminum tubing or stock CF tubing. The methods I show are for when a custom tube is needed with varying wall thickness and other features to save weight - generally only an issue on aircraft. Weight is not nearly that critical for any land vehicle.
Oh, sorry, but I don't have that data anymore. The video is really meant to just show the process. The weight of that piece of tubing is different than most due to the tapered wall thickness I needed for those parts. Generally, you can calculate the weight for any given tube by finding the total area of cloth you need and then multiplying by a factor of 1.6 - that will give you a slightly conservative answer.
polyester peel ply. Works OK, but teflon coated fiberglass is much better for the job - leaves fewer threads to pull off. However, it is more expensive. Both are available from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
@@KlingbergWingMkII thanks for the quick reply, i'll be working on my first carbon fiber project, a 3.5in tube with 2 45º angles. i'll be using a sleeve carbon fiber cloth so its easier to go around the stainless steel mandrel i've made. my plan is to cut in half after the first layer, so i can get the mandrel out, and then do a second layer on top of those two halves glued together. do you think that can work out? thank you for your time and really appreciate your work! thanks
Not sure what you mean by "sleeves". I have made custom tubing for most of the aircraft to maximize the strength to weight ratio. There are a few standard CF tubes which I purchased off of ebay. Likewise, I purchase most of my CF cloth on ebay.
Ah, yes, that type of cloth is available from most of the larger composites suppliers. Here is one source: cstsales.com/a-carbon-fiber-material.html I have stopped using that material for most of my tubing as it limits the bending stiffness, although it does have very high torsional stiffness. If I need to due a tube that tapers in diameter, then the biaxial woven cloth is excellent.
Good question. I cover that exact situation in the video on building my winglets. I needed a tapered CF tube for the leading edges. Basically, you use a tapered mandrel and pull on each end of the sleeve until it is tight to the mandrel surface. You can see photos of the process here: czcams.com/video/QVqWj5yTlkA/video.html
You set your mandrel up so that is rotates (like on a skewer), buy some CF tow, and wrap the mandrel manually. +45 degrees, then -45 degrees, then +45 degrees, etc, etc, etc.
Actually, I'm building the winglets for the full size wing right now! I've been working them for a few weeks and I now have all the parts and I can begin assembly. This is actually a true Concurrent Engineering project. I'm working the design details as I build the wing. This can be a bit "risky", but I did it successfully for my first wing so I figured I'd try it again. I will be posting video of the winglet construction soon. All new videos go to my Pateron site to serve my Patrons first, then, later I post here. So, to see the developments soonest please sign up at: www.patreon.com/klingbergwing
Hi All:It has dawned on me that nobody other than me has any idea as to when the Wing will be complete! This is not as it should be. So, I put together a schedule that I will keep up to date on Pateron. It is open for all to view at no charge.Because this is a concurrent engineering approach, there will be big changes to the schedule as I progress. But this document will give you a general feel as to where I have been and where I'm going. When I get to that first flight, I can't say for sure. Please hang in there with me and help make this aircraft a reality! www.patreon.com/posts/17546696
You made me thinking about the moulded aft wing skin.Indeed if you compare the price of Ceconite with accessories and the price of a laminate with 4 layers of 0.25oz / ft²glass fiber you get 20% the price of Ceconite. The question is which is better the fabric or the laminate.The fabric is soft and the laminate is stiff.
Actually, the key point is that you can make highly tailored tubing that is optimized for the application. If one is doing an ultralight aircraft, every ounce counts. In a 100 lb aircraft, this method can save several lbs!
Hmmmmmm............interesting question. I will assume you are asking this in relation to making tubing. For model aircraft, I would say, "yes", for full size aircraft, I'd give it a huge, "NO". CA has very poor mechanical properties so it's use in full size aircraft is quite limited. I use it only to tack glue parts together before final bonding with structural adhesives.
Wouldn't you still need some covering over the PVC to prevent the composite layup from sticking? I've tried similar with mold release applied to the plastic tube, but could not remove the composite tube from the mold. the .005-in gap between the mylar and mold is critical for removal. Maybe I mis-understand what you mean - with this stuff it is often hard to understand without dwgs or pics. On the plus side, I'm modifying the process to make it easier to remove the mylar from the composite tube. You will see this in a coming video.
@@KlingbergWingMkII Just an idea - may be closing one end of the tube and pressurize it with oil pump from other end while you are laying the fabric to have it expanded a bit can help release the carbon fiber tube after it is cured. so basically the pressure in tube has tube dropped before carbon tubing will be pulled out of alu tube. Just check is need to be done whether the alu tube will uniformly be expanded or at least expanded within accuracy constraints of your part.
There are several other videos on my YT channel showing my rig/methods for making tubing in my more preferred style. This video was intended as an intro to the concept of using a layer of mylar and graphic powder so one can use simple, straight, inexpensive aluminum tubing (instead of expensive tapered mandrels, or total loss systems) to reduce the overall cost of making the tubing and put a usable process in the hands of most homebuilders.
I am experimenting with a new tube release method. It involves brushing on a coat of melted paraffin wax on the aluminum tube. So far so good. First I melted a basic candle. Then I brushed on a smooth layer of the wax. The wax coating appears to be plenty thick enough to act as a barrier between the epoxy composite and the aluminum tube. The next step requires you to lay up all the layers of the composite tube and wrap them in peel-ply, absorbent material and lastly shrink-fit tape. After the new composite tube has hardened fully, you pour boiling water through the aluminum tube repeatedly. (This will melt the wax barrier, and it ought to give you a very easy release.).
With my mandrels I wet sand up to 1200 grit and then apply a chemical release. This saves a lot of time on prep and removal of mylar afterwards.
Food grade silicon (petroleum free) can be used as inexpensive but very effective release agent that makes the use of a Mylar film unnecessary. Your mandrel has to be nearly perfectly smooth though. If using aluminum, using dry ice inside the tubing will shrink the tubing making releasing the mandrel much easier once the resin has cured
These are techniques I use for laying up Kevlar for various purposes
Food grade “silicone”? Silicon is an element.
Thanks for the demo. The camera perspective makes it look like the aerosol release over spray might get on your carbon fabric.
Good point and something one should watch out for. I don't remember if it did, but I never used that tube. In later videos one can see that I spray the release when the mandrel is on my turning jig so I don't accidentally touch it before I wrap and the spray direction is 180 degrees away from the wet-out table.
Nice video, I would like to use this method to make a mast for a trimaran sailboat thick on the bottom, thinner on top!
Have you tried just maintaining a temperature around 70'C during the curing cycle and using common mold release products. The aluminium tube has a large expansion coefficient relative to carbon and when cooled down can be easily removed. (most times).
Yep, does not work. The way I show requires max physical force to remove. If one does a wrap loose enough to slid off the way you suggest, then there will be voids in the layup. Commercially made tubing is done much like you describe, but they use a multi-ton hydraulic press to remove the tube from the mandrel.
Nice demonstration.
Thanks, I hope you and others can use some of the techniques shown.
hello I have and am enjoying this tube tutorials I am looking to make a Carbon fiber Handle for my metal detecting sand scoop. , My OD is 1.22 and I am wondering how thick I will need to make the tubes wall thickness,, Thanks in advance
Well, one can't know that answer without having the weights and moment arms of the entire system. But for what you are doing, all that engineering is not really necessary. If your solution fails, nobody dies, you just waste some time and materials. I assume you want to make the system lighter - a worthy goal. So, I'd recommend you review the video link at the end of this reply. I'd use one inner layer of 120 style fiberglass and one outer layer of the same cloth. It will be very light and strong and be highly resistant to crushing in your hand. Link: czcams.com/video/U6LCe81j3eM/video.html
@@KlingbergWingMkII Thank you I will, I just ordered some test material from ACP thanks for the link and for your videos that got this started
When you say oven, what exactly do you mean? What is a good oven choice and average price range? Do you use any vacuum bagging? Thank you for sharing the process, I loved all the extra tips you offered.
I'll go backwards and answer the last question first. I have found that if you vacuum bag the tubing the cloth will buckle in many places. Is is simply due to the high resin content of a hand layup. As the bag compresses, there is nowhere for the "excess" cloth and resin to go so it buckles. Now for the first question. Quick answer, please view the follwoing video: czcams.com/video/oq5FbH2VAqY/video.html
@@KlingbergWingMkII Thank you for the reply and further explanation. Your oven is awesome! Subscribing and looking forward to more content. Great stuff.
What oven do you use? What does your custom built oven look like!?
czcams.com/video/oq5FbH2VAqY/video.html
can you tell us about the shrink film and what to get. What you are showing seems to be alot less money than buying shrink tape. I want buy this film you are using here as shrink film. Please elaborate on the window shrink film and how to get it. Thank you.
www.amazon.com/Duck-10-Window-Insulator-420-Inch-286216/dp/B002GKC2GW/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=heat+shrink+plastic+window+covering&qid=1622750851&sr=8-3
The oven part is a bit of downer, while the rest of the video is fascinating. "Cheap" is only valid if you're intending to make tubes on a very regular basis with the oven involved.
I'm looking to make two ruddersticks (60 inch long) for a sailboat, but as an exceptional build. Building an oven first leads me back to the regular shop unfortunately :-) Is the over mandatory actually? Especially if you're working with several layers as strength is more important than weight?
Given no oven, you'd be better off using aluminum tubing or stock CF tubing. The methods I show are for when a custom tube is needed with varying wall thickness and other features to save weight - generally only an issue on aircraft. Weight is not nearly that critical for any land vehicle.
Hi, you are an artist. This way I can make a fishing rod
Wow, thanks
What did it weigh? You didn't show the screen of the scale.
Oh, sorry, but I don't have that data anymore. The video is really meant to just show the process. The weight of that piece of tubing is different than most due to the tapered wall thickness I needed for those parts. Generally, you can calculate the weight for any given tube by finding the total area of cloth you need and then multiplying by a factor of 1.6 - that will give you a slightly conservative answer.
what is the white cloth that you used to wrap and absorb the resin excess?
polyester peel ply. Works OK, but teflon coated fiberglass is much better for the job - leaves fewer threads to pull off. However, it is more expensive. Both are available from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty
@@KlingbergWingMkII thanks for the quick reply, i'll be working on my first carbon fiber project, a 3.5in tube with 2 45º angles. i'll be using a sleeve carbon fiber cloth so its easier to go around the stainless steel mandrel i've made. my plan is to cut in half after the first layer, so i can get the mandrel out, and then do a second layer on top of those two halves glued together.
do you think that can work out?
thank you for your time and really appreciate your work! thanks
Is that aluminum mandrel .. if so why aluminum why not steel ?
Yes, lighter and easier to hangle, expands more when heated (tighter layup) and maybe cheaper depending on sources.
Were do buy the carbon fiber sleeves?
Not sure what you mean by "sleeves". I have made custom tubing for most of the aircraft to maximize the strength to weight ratio. There are a few standard CF tubes which I purchased off of ebay. Likewise, I purchase most of my CF cloth on ebay.
The first section off carbon fiber that u put on the mandrel
Ah, yes, that type of cloth is available from most of the larger composites suppliers. Here is one source: cstsales.com/a-carbon-fiber-material.html I have stopped using that material for most of my tubing as it limits the bending stiffness, although it does have very high torsional stiffness. If I need to due a tube that tapers in diameter, then the biaxial woven cloth is excellent.
I just need it for a over wood shaft for paddles
1 1/4 paddle shafts
how would you go about adding a sleeve if i wanted to do a tapered tube? since the sleeve is uniform
Good question. I cover that exact situation in the video on building my winglets. I needed a tapered CF tube for the leading edges. Basically, you use a tapered mandrel and pull on each end of the sleeve until it is tight to the mandrel surface. You can see photos of the process here: czcams.com/video/QVqWj5yTlkA/video.html
You set your mandrel up so that is rotates (like on a skewer), buy some CF tow, and wrap the mandrel manually. +45 degrees, then -45 degrees, then +45 degrees, etc, etc, etc.
When you think you end up with the experiments and go over to the actual building of the flying wing?
Actually, I'm building the winglets for the full size wing right now! I've been working them for a few weeks and I now have all the parts and I can begin assembly. This is actually a true Concurrent Engineering project. I'm working the design details as I build the wing. This can be a bit "risky", but I did it successfully for my first wing so I figured I'd try it again. I will be posting video of the winglet construction soon. All new videos go to my Pateron site to serve my Patrons first, then, later I post here. So, to see the developments soonest please sign up at: www.patreon.com/klingbergwing
Hi All:It has dawned on me that nobody other than me has any idea as to when the Wing will be complete! This is not as it should be. So, I put together a schedule that I will keep up to date on Pateron. It is open for all to view at no charge.Because this is a concurrent engineering approach, there will be big changes to the schedule as I progress. But this document will give you a general feel as to where I have been and where I'm going. When I get to that first flight, I can't say for sure. Please hang in there with me and help make this aircraft a reality!
www.patreon.com/posts/17546696
You made me thinking about the moulded aft wing skin.Indeed if you compare the price of Ceconite with accessories and the price of a laminate with 4 layers of 0.25oz / ft²glass fiber you get 20% the price of Ceconite. The question is which is better the fabric or the laminate.The fabric is soft and the laminate is stiff.
And so for all this you supposedly save a lousy $40 from buying the ready made?
Actually, the key point is that you can make highly tailored tubing that is optimized for the application. If one is doing an ultralight aircraft, every ounce counts. In a 100 lb aircraft, this method can save several lbs!
can ca glue be used in place of epoxy?
Hmmmmmm............interesting question. I will assume you are asking this in relation to making tubing. For model aircraft, I would say, "yes", for full size aircraft, I'd give it a huge, "NO". CA has very poor mechanical properties so it's use in full size aircraft is quite limited. I use it only to tack glue parts together before final bonding with structural adhesives.
It's not easier to pull a PVC pipe over the mandrell instead of struggle with the mylar foil?
Wouldn't you still need some covering over the PVC to prevent the composite layup from sticking? I've tried similar with mold release applied to the plastic tube, but could not remove the composite tube from the mold. the .005-in gap between the mylar and mold is critical for removal. Maybe I mis-understand what you mean - with this stuff it is often hard to understand without dwgs or pics.
On the plus side, I'm modifying the process to make it easier to remove the mylar from the composite tube. You will see this in a coming video.
@@KlingbergWingMkII Just an idea - may be closing one end of the tube and pressurize it with oil pump from other end while you are laying the fabric to have it expanded a bit can help release the carbon fiber tube after it is cured. so basically the pressure in tube has tube dropped before carbon tubing will be pulled out of alu tube. Just check is need to be done whether the alu tube will uniformly be expanded or at least expanded within accuracy constraints of your part.
Keeps saying how he prefers to do it. WHY not show us the method you prefer?
There are several other videos on my YT channel showing my rig/methods for making tubing in my more preferred style. This video was intended as an intro to the concept of using a layer of mylar and graphic powder so one can use simple, straight, inexpensive aluminum tubing (instead of expensive tapered mandrels, or total loss systems) to reduce the overall cost of making the tubing and put a usable process in the hands of most homebuilders.