i'm a noob but i couldn't agree more with your bottom line here peter. it's not just having those fancy niche gears to expect magic then call it a day. it's the proper knowledge about proper installation and tuning which are undeniable that you both have. cheers!
Another excellent video. Explains why i have to boost my hertz legend in the door crazy at 400hz to get it half decent. I really need to go 3 way active. I also learnt that the axis makes a huge difference. So am i right in assuming that to get best sound (most flat before tuning) for the drivers seat position, is to have your speakers angled not uniform on both sides (although this would be best asthetically) but instead to aim the left side speakers directly at the driver side head rest and same for the right side?
It used to be supplied by the manufacturer for those 2” speakers. Check Valicar on eBay, they can make anything from aluminium for reasonable prices. 👍
Great video and man can you eq! Where do you put the mic when you are eqing and setting t/a. I always thought you put on side of ears but the center image is always ahead of me not in the center on windshield. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks and keep up the awesome work!
For measurements above the Schroeder Frequency (it's usually between 250Hz-350Hz...it's slightly different for each vehicle based on the size or volume of the cabin), it's best to do measurements in 6 to 8 positions around your head/ear area to create a "Spatial Average" measurement. While we are driving, our head isn't locked in a single position, and just a single-point measurement within a vehicle cabin will not produce an accurate representation of the overall frequency response at our seated listening position. Things change a bit when in a very "small room" like a vehicle, but generally, the following applies... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_acoustics Also look up *Interaural Time Difference* (ITD) and *Interaural Intensity Difference* (IID)... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization Back to the "Spatial Average" Measurements: If you are using REW or most other software, you would take 6 individual FR measurements "in the general area" around your head and ears (horizontally & vertically) and then Average all of them to get your overall system frequency response. So for example, take 3 measurements in a horizontal plane...one between your eyebrows, and then one each 2" to the left and right of your head at eyebrow level. Then take 3 more L-C-R measurements in the same manner, but in a lower horizontal plane, let's say at chin level. Average them all together for your "Spatial Average". For measuring the FR below the Schroeder frequency, you just need to take a single measurement at a position that replicates the midway point between your ears when seated in your listening position. You can then merge this measurement with the above Spatial Average to get your full FR measurement. Most people prefer and generally "tune" to a industry accepted "House Curve", such as the JBL/Harman car audio house curve. It is individual preference, and there are some slight variations on this standard "House Curve". See images.app.goo.gl/R6wyZKgXEkgpKC2g9 For time alignment, I just use the Tape Measure method and then adjust slightly by ear if needed because both Distance and the Speed Of Sound are constants in our world (sure the SOS my vary slightly due to barometric pressure & humidity, but not by a significant factor). Measuring Impulse Response in a vehicle for setting T/A can be problematic and hard to interpret the data due to the physics of acoustics within a vehicle. The tape measure method works and is easier IMO. "KISS"! An EXCELLENT tuning Tutorial is the Audiofrog Tutorial by Andy Wehmeyer. It is based on using REW, and explains HOW and WHY you need to take the particular measurements. The "Tech Tips" on Andy's Audiofrog website Forums are excellent as well. Check these Links out... testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf and the Basic Delay Calculator in XLS spreadsheet format. testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Basic-Delay-Calculator.xlsx Audiofrog Forums Tech Tips... www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/
Peter- great video, thanks for sharing. I see that you have tuned that system with a flat frequency response, however I imagine that sound signature preferences will vary from person to person. Personally, I tend to prefer warmer sounding speakers and headphones since my ears are very sensitive above 2k. Would it be worthwhile to target a car frequency response to match the sound signature of a favorite headphone which does not have a flat response? Does such a strategy translate to equivalent sound signatures between systems?
Fantastic video. To echo others, thanks and would like to see more on tuning.Question: Do you take an average measurement from several locations around the driver's head or use a single mic location? I have yet to measure response in-car but have noticed wild swings in response over just a few inches using a UMIK-1 with REW on my home system.
DavidK442 Yes, if you don’t measure the right way with the right settings, you’re just shooting in the dark. Equipment is cheap, learning how to use it properly is very time consuming and expensive. As much as i try to share all i can, giving my experience away which many of my competitors want to know too is....yeah, can’t happen! 😃 Those who book a tuning session on their systems get full explanation of the process, so if you’re in UK, then come along! 😉😃
I love your work 🔥💪✅ which you know, & you are very highly skilled.. This is just my opinion, no hate here, but the tuning sounds very bright, sharp & sibilant to me even thru the CZcams lossy compression. As an audio engineer or car audio engineer, Understanding the Fletcher Munson curve & what dB level the ear hears things the flattest at is crucial for tuning cars or recording, mixing, & mastering music. Also understanding how the interaction of certain frequencies in the ear is a must when tuning a room / studio / or car..Especially in a car ( or studio ) when sound waves are interacting & reflecting off the windshield and dash ( hard surfaces ) which is being combined with the source audio that then hits your ears. That’s why pink noise is used b/c It replicates more of how the ear perceive 1 KHz and up & 1KHz and down.. As you increase into the upper octaves of pink noise into the upper frequencies amplitude is lowered / halved by -3db .. Hope this info is useful to some. Keep up the great work Peter 🔥🕺
Hmm this sounds interesting. So you are saying as you get above 2k we should be eq'ing to -3db instead of flat. Because the human ear is more sensitive above 2k?
Darmo The human ear is most sensitive between 1000/2000hz to 5000hz so yes depending on the car’s cabin and listeners preference. It is why most passive crossovers have a -3, -6 dB settings. In a DSP you have more control, so you can do what Peter is explaining with REQ wizard ( software on his laptop ). In my 2 way active vehicle I have my tweeters crossed at 3khz 24 dB however they are -8db lower than my 6.5”. Ideally you would want a pink noise type response when measured from the listening position. Again “ linear “ is figurative speak not literal.. Literal linear response would rip your ears off from 1000hz up. Most ppl 40 & up cant hear over 12/13/14000 Hz so a more “linear response “ as we see hear on the SW graph may sound appealing to someone who can’t hear the high frequencies as precisely/ audibly well accurately as someone younger or with more precise hearing. There is a million ways to skin a cat with tuning and I learn new ideas and techniques often. My way is not the highway lol Take care
Hey Peter, for those of us in North America, would you ever consider doing private skype based tuning sessions providing we have all of the necessary tuning equipment (calibrated mic, laptop, REW) and the physical install complete as we intend to run it permanently? Full screen sharing of the laptop is also possible so it would be like you're there, with the caveat of not being able to hear it and make judgement calls based on your intuition.
Would be interesting to see what happens to the FR if you sit 4cm lower/higher or forward/backwards. I mean yes it will not be as good, but would be interesting to see the graph.
Love your vids from across the pound set up system in my car a little like yours 6 channel zapco z-150.6lx running morel hybrid 602 active up front passive in rear deck zapco dsp-z8 1v zapco-2kd ll class D pushing a skar vxf-12 d2 ported at 32hz what speaker would you recommend to go three way up front hybrid audio wideband
Bill Kratz It’s all in the install, what speaker can be installed best in the given locations. Brands don’t matter, specs of drivers for the job do even more!
If I could only choose one midrange driver to use in a 3-way front stage setup, most often it would be the Audiofrog GB25. It's very small so it can fit almost anywhere (ease of installation!). And it performs better than a lot of larger 3"-4" midrange drivers, both on the low end and high end of the bandpass. You can simply use a small 2" PVC pipe end cap behind it as an enclosure! Another advantage of it's small physical size is that it doesn't start beaming until much higher in frequency. This allows you more options for the tweeter. Sure there are others that are truly Excellent... Dynaudio Esotar2 430 Scanspeak 10F, 11m, 12m, 12mu H.A.T. X3 3.7" Arc Audio RS 3.0 & RS 4.0 But those are much larger and have different installation requirements.
I have 2 inch Infinity Kappa midrange speakers mounted in the kick panels angled up and toward the driver. I have them time aligned with the matching tweeters in factory sail location (6x9 also factory location). I was trying to avoid pods in the A pillar and there was no other place to put them in the doors of my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Will I get an appreciable difference moving them up into the A-pillars ? I ask because if I spend the money to have custom A‐pillars done, I'd like to know beforehand that it's worth it SQ-wise. Thanks Great channel by the way. Subscribed! Beautiful work.
Richard R Hi, you could also mount the mids on the dash firing up against the screen using that as an acoustic lens. Once you have mids playing down low, the sides of the stage will always pull down, plus your & passenger’s legs always interfere with mids down low, which screws things up too.
@@pssound9749 Never even thought of that. Thanks so much for the advice. I keep watching more of your channel because you do some amazing work and your explanations are great. Thanks so much for all you do!
@Richard R @Pssound As Peter suggested, you can mount the mids on the top left & right dash corners firing into the windshield (if your vehicle has these mounting locations?). But you want to take care when doing this. Use the following white paper as a guide... www.jjracoustics.com/128-AES_2010.pdf In addition, I'll add that most if not all 2" midrange drivers that are mounted in the kickpanels will have limited output capability. This means that they will reach their SPL limits and start to distort just when they are getting loud enough to truly jam. :( The best I've come across in that size range for overall SQ and excellent output capability are the Audiofrog GB25, but you pay for that capability. If there is any possibility of mounting a small midrange up high and flush in the door panels, I would go that route...even if it requires small door pods...Andy at Audiofrog says you can successfully use a 2" PVC pipe end cap as the enclosure behind the GB25, and I've tried it and it works incredibly well! Again, I'm recommending the Audiofrog GB25 if your budget permits, because they are TINY but are truly Unicorns when it comes to high-quality, small midrange drivers for a 3-way front stage setup. This setup will work really well with your existing tweeter and 6"x9" locations. If the midrange cannot be mounted in the doors, I would opt to have custom Sail Panels made to house both the GB25 and a small tweeter. This will most likely be less work and you won't have to modify your A-pillars, just the sail panel trim. Check out the door install in Andy Wehmeyer's demo vehicle. He's the owner/designer of Audiofrog and this is his daily driver Mercedes. Andy is a funny and good-natured guy! czcams.com/video/Hf5POoa_axI/video.html
@@abrahamcale3659 It can work well. HOWEVER, you need to use a DSP that has a proper specialized Center Channel Upmixer. The new Helix DSP units with the "ACO" features have "Real Center" algorithm that works alright but not ideal IME. Unfortunately, Andy at Audiofrog still has not released his DSP/Amplifier with center channel upmixer.
Mr Mr i use someone else’s comment from a current topic on Fb: ,,What bothered me the most when I used kick panels wasn't the fact that the center moved when I had a passenger. It was that horrible rainbow effect that was to me much more irritating.” It sums it well! 😃
Peter, currently building focal flax 3 way active into my vw caddy van , would the 6.5 midbass's be better in enclosuers under/behind the front seats, or spend weeks trying to sort the door cards out..?, would hope to be able to bring it up to you for tuning if that's a service you can do once it's done also! . Cheers love the videos
derbi King i definitely offer tuning services, i tune 4-6 cars a month and it’s constantly growing as people start to realise how much it bring to a system. Well, yes, you have space under the seats, but then make sure the midbass drivers face forward. Also, you won’t be able to play them higher than 160-200Hz from that location if you want seamless integration to the midrange. Make sure the midrange has enough airspace for breathing and the mounting and the area it’s mounted to is solid and dead.
@@pssound9749 midrange & tweet will be on pillars with plenty or airspace as the pillar has a quarterlight window recess it will be build into, hopefully the midrange gets low enough. I will build some enclosuers facing the pedals.. Great to hear from you, I will get in tough later on this year to book a tune! Thanks Peter
Hi I'm running 6.5 inch jbl Component setup the front doors, woofers and tweeters 50hz to 20khz. I have ordered some midbass speakers 260khz to 11.5khz. Do you see issues with this?
Wow, very interesting. I wonder if the effect would be the same if the drivers were in an array setup (2 mids and a tweeter in the middle). Also do you think replacing the widebands with a dome midrange (600Hz to 4kHz) would work?
Dave Dome mids are very difficult to use well in a car: most of them have wide dispersion and they can’t play low enough either! If you can get a midbass installed in a way that you don’t have major problems caused by the car upto 600Hz, then you may have a good chance, but in reality that is close to impossible!
Ouch, darn!!!! There goes another idea in the toilet. Thanks for the speedy reply. Hold on doesn't Dynaudio make a 3-way component set like that?(Tweeter,dome midrange and midbass)
If an enthusiast (not a professional installer) wanted to aquire RTA hardware/software, what would be your recommendation? Also cost of purchase, if you'd be so kind. Thanks in advance
Damn man, all my dreams of saving a 2-way focal speaker kit are dead haha. I wanted to add a dsp, add a sub, and make it active instead of passive to XO properly. But yeah as is (just amplifier) it is not sounds good at all, sibiline highs, midrange is very sketchy, nice midbass at least. Will try anyways to do something before throwing another 500€ in the system, sigh...
Well, i've got crazy and bought a set of 3-way focal flax evo, had it at 340€ on sale, couldn't resist. Adding an esx 4x80w to my little focal 4x55w amp, going through musway dsp68, a esx spare wheel sub, some more deadening (done), ofc witring (done), received my spare a-pillars for custom fit of tweet and mid, overall excited as hell and broke haha. Also got some solid alu muscway stands for doors. Again thanks man for all the info! :)
They were supplied with Audible Physics widebands years ago, but those days are gone. Search for Valicar aluminium speaker pods on eBay, he can make them to order.
You should actually make a kind of these underseat active woofers but for midbass and sell for universal applications as not many have fabrication skills to fabricate midbass enclosure
Most cabins are very similar and the door locations of midbass drivers related to your listening position are also similar. After tuning more than 200 systems in the last 5years, i can confidently say that most cars have this issue.
@@pssound9749 you're right... have remeasured my car without me sitting in the car. Now i got a big null around 550 on passenger side that wasn't there when measuring when i'm sitting in the car.
F G i said in the video that it’s not IMPOSSIBLE, but very close to it! This applies to a midbass in door and tweeter up high. Widebands instead of tweeters is a different story. Watch this video from 5:30 if you need more clarification on this topic: czcams.com/video/A3D7pZbgkbY/video.html
you´re eqing too hard! But this is really good video anyway! if i have to tune with REW i use 5ms window size. but in-car i dont EQ that much, slight mic movement and it might be opposite EQ needed. Im working now with old audi a4 b5 and i measured factory blaupunkt door speakers, rather good response, not dipping bad at all!!. But factory tuna can doors aint good, 10-15L enclosures finish withing 3days.
м Slight mic movement shows different readings as your technique and settings are not good. It took me years of learning, traveling, talking to the best in trade to be consistent, then there’s no such thing as hard EQing!!
@@pssound9749 there was one guy who made video that i cant find right now but he used rta for measuring, moving mic by hand place he wanted for couple of seconds, pinknoise on and averaging on on REW. I might try that for eq setup, but delays i do fixed positions
Mike If you can make a system linear in a car, then you can do anything out of it to suit your preference, but till you have so big peaks & cancellations, you only rather listen to the car & not the music!
You’d hate my Golf then. 8” in location that fires in your hip. Then 4” midrange in location upper door area and tweeters on sails. OPSODIS style speaker setup, with low frequencies basically emanating from 90 degrees off axis, midrange at about 45 degrees off axis, and high frequencies about 30 degrees off axis 2) Using the entire door for a loudspeaker allows for some epic midbass. It’s a weird arrangement. But does seems to work.
Why all the rush for this flat response? Greatest namea in the audio industry, especially home audio (high.end and audiophiles) all claim that flat loudspeakers don't soond good at all. All agree that source or ampflifier should have flat sound output, but not high quality speakers. Why do you search for liniarity? Cheers.
@@pssound9749 i will because i'm interested in the process but didn't had the time to watch all the videos, i've binged them a little. I thought you are looking for a flat sound.
Hello Peter. As an avid fan/stalker. I was watching an Alfa build from a while ago where you got great results from a two way set up. Was that because it ran with a DSP to dial out the dips? Cheers buddy
I like your honesty when you are talking about carhifi! I appreciate it very much! Thank you for your vids Peter. :)
This just Change my hole idea thanks bud.
i'm a noob but i couldn't agree more with your bottom line here peter. it's not just having those fancy niche gears to expect magic then call it a day.
it's the proper knowledge about proper installation and tuning which are undeniable that you both have. cheers!
You got some serious skills...
Subscribed!!
Another excellent video. Explains why i have to boost my hertz legend in the door crazy at 400hz to get it half decent. I really need to go 3 way active. I also learnt that the axis makes a huge difference. So am i right in assuming that to get best sound (most flat before tuning) for the drivers seat position, is to have your speakers angled not uniform on both sides (although this would be best asthetically) but instead to aim the left side speakers directly at the driver side head rest and same for the right side?
Wish I had a shop near me that offered this service.
The wonders of modern technology.
Another great video that surly got my attention. Where did you source the A pillar pods? I like the simplicity of them and desire to do the same.
It used to be supplied by the manufacturer for those 2” speakers.
Check Valicar on eBay, they can make anything from aluminium for reasonable prices. 👍
Great video and man can you eq! Where do you put the mic when you are eqing and setting t/a. I always thought you put on side of ears but the center image is always ahead of me not in the center on windshield. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks and keep up the awesome work!
For measurements above the Schroeder Frequency (it's usually between 250Hz-350Hz...it's slightly different for each vehicle based on the size or volume of the cabin), it's best to do measurements in 6 to 8 positions around your head/ear area to create a "Spatial Average" measurement.
While we are driving, our head isn't locked in a single position, and just a single-point measurement within a vehicle cabin will not produce an accurate representation of the overall frequency response at our seated listening position.
Things change a bit when in a very "small room" like a vehicle, but generally, the following applies...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_acoustics
Also look up *Interaural Time Difference* (ITD) and *Interaural Intensity Difference* (IID)...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization
Back to the "Spatial Average" Measurements: If you are using REW or most other software, you would take 6 individual FR measurements "in the general area" around your head and ears (horizontally & vertically) and then Average all of them to get your overall system frequency response.
So for example, take 3 measurements in a horizontal plane...one between your eyebrows, and then one each 2" to the left and right of your head at eyebrow level. Then take 3 more L-C-R measurements in the same manner, but in a lower horizontal plane, let's say at chin level. Average them all together for your "Spatial Average".
For measuring the FR below the Schroeder frequency, you just need to take a single measurement at a position that replicates the midway point between your ears when seated in your listening position. You can then merge this measurement with the above Spatial Average to get your full FR measurement.
Most people prefer and generally "tune" to a industry accepted "House Curve", such as the JBL/Harman car audio house curve. It is individual preference, and there are some slight variations on this standard "House Curve". See images.app.goo.gl/R6wyZKgXEkgpKC2g9
For time alignment, I just use the Tape Measure method and then adjust slightly by ear if needed because both Distance and the Speed Of Sound are constants in our world (sure the SOS my vary slightly due to barometric pressure & humidity, but not by a significant factor).
Measuring Impulse Response in a vehicle for setting T/A can be problematic and hard to interpret the data due to the physics of acoustics within a vehicle. The tape measure method works and is easier IMO. "KISS"!
An EXCELLENT tuning Tutorial is the Audiofrog Tutorial by Andy Wehmeyer. It is based on using REW, and explains HOW and WHY you need to take the particular measurements. The "Tech Tips" on Andy's Audiofrog website Forums are excellent as well. Check these Links out...
testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf
and
the Basic Delay Calculator in XLS spreadsheet format.
testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Basic-Delay-Calculator.xlsx
Audiofrog Forums Tech Tips...
www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/
Peter- great video, thanks for sharing. I see that you have tuned that system with a flat frequency response, however I imagine that sound signature preferences will vary from person to person. Personally, I tend to prefer warmer sounding speakers and headphones since my ears are very sensitive above 2k.
Would it be worthwhile to target a car frequency response to match the sound signature of a favorite headphone which does not have a flat response? Does such a strategy translate to equivalent sound signatures between systems?
There is no such thing, as a flat response in our universe.
I hope you were find out after 4 years!
Fantastic video. To echo others, thanks and would like to see more on tuning.Question: Do you take an average measurement from several locations around the driver's head or use a single mic location? I have yet to measure response in-car but have noticed wild swings in response over just a few inches using a UMIK-1 with REW on my home system.
DavidK442 Yes, if you don’t measure the right way with the right settings, you’re just shooting in the dark. Equipment is cheap, learning how to use it properly is very time consuming and expensive.
As much as i try to share all i can, giving my experience away which many of my competitors want to know too is....yeah, can’t happen! 😃
Those who book a tuning session on their systems get full explanation of the process, so if you’re in UK, then come along! 😉😃
@@pssound9749 I appreciate the candid response. Completely understandable. Thanks for sharing as much as you do.
That is a great visual demonstration on the benefits of proper tuning. How come the rams weren't more on axis?
Patrick they were installed by the owner, i had nothing to do with that, but as you see they had great wide functional range even that way. 👌
Sweet!!
I love your work 🔥💪✅ which you know, & you are very highly skilled..
This is just my opinion, no hate here, but the tuning sounds very bright, sharp & sibilant to me even thru the CZcams lossy compression.
As an audio engineer or car audio engineer, Understanding the Fletcher Munson curve & what dB level the ear hears things the flattest at is crucial for tuning cars or recording, mixing, & mastering music.
Also understanding how the interaction of certain frequencies in the ear is a must when tuning a room / studio / or car..Especially in a car ( or studio ) when sound waves are interacting & reflecting off the windshield and dash ( hard surfaces ) which is being combined with the source audio that then hits your ears.
That’s why pink noise is used b/c It replicates more of how the ear perceive 1 KHz and up & 1KHz and down.. As you increase into the upper octaves of pink noise into the upper frequencies amplitude is lowered / halved by -3db ..
Hope this info is useful to some. Keep up the great work Peter 🔥🕺
one should never judge an audio system via youtube.. I think Peter knows this too.. ;) no hard feelings though..
Hmm this sounds interesting. So you are saying as you get above 2k we should be eq'ing to -3db instead of flat. Because the human ear is more sensitive above 2k?
Monticar Herten I’m judging it based off the facts presented not the sound!
Darmo The human ear is most sensitive between 1000/2000hz to 5000hz so yes depending on the car’s cabin and listeners preference. It is why most passive crossovers have a -3, -6 dB settings. In a DSP you have more control, so you can do what Peter is explaining with REQ wizard ( software on his laptop ). In my 2 way active vehicle I have my tweeters crossed at 3khz 24 dB however they are -8db lower than my 6.5”. Ideally you would want a pink noise type response when measured from the listening position.
Again “ linear “ is figurative speak not literal.. Literal linear response would rip your ears off from 1000hz up. Most ppl 40 & up cant hear over 12/13/14000 Hz so a more “linear response “ as we see hear on the SW graph may sound appealing to someone who can’t hear the high frequencies as precisely/ audibly well accurately as someone younger or with more precise hearing.
There is a million ways to skin a cat with tuning and I learn new ideas and techniques often. My way is not the highway lol Take care
@@uptobatentertainment You need to go the Focal Utopia M-series, 3-way component driver system.
Hey Peter, for those of us in North America, would you ever consider doing private skype based tuning sessions providing we have all of the necessary tuning equipment (calibrated mic, laptop, REW) and the physical install complete as we intend to run it permanently? Full screen sharing of the laptop is also possible so it would be like you're there, with the caveat of not being able to hear it and make judgement calls based on your intuition.
He could do a paid tuning service and connect to your computer with team viewer but the best dsp tuning is always gonna be in person for best results
Would be interesting to see what happens to the FR if you sit 4cm lower/higher or forward/backwards. I mean yes it will not be as good, but would be interesting to see the graph.
bingoberra18 nothing is gonna change as what you see here is a spacial average at your ears within 4”s.
Love your vids from across the pound set up system in my car a little like yours 6 channel zapco z-150.6lx running morel hybrid 602 active up front passive in rear deck zapco dsp-z8 1v zapco-2kd ll class D pushing a skar vxf-12 d2 ported at 32hz what speaker would you recommend to go three way up front hybrid audio wideband
Bill Kratz It’s all in the install, what speaker can be installed best in the given locations. Brands don’t matter, specs of drivers for the job do even more!
@@pssound9749 thanks
If I could only choose one midrange driver to use in a 3-way front stage setup, most often it would be the Audiofrog GB25. It's very small so it can fit almost anywhere (ease of installation!). And it performs better than a lot of larger 3"-4" midrange drivers, both on the low end and high end of the bandpass. You can simply use a small 2" PVC pipe end cap behind it as an enclosure! Another advantage of it's small physical size is that it doesn't start beaming until much higher in frequency. This allows you more options for the tweeter.
Sure there are others that are truly Excellent...
Dynaudio Esotar2 430
Scanspeak 10F, 11m, 12m, 12mu
H.A.T. X3 3.7"
Arc Audio RS 3.0 & RS 4.0
But those are much larger and have different installation requirements.
I have 2 inch Infinity Kappa midrange speakers mounted in the kick panels angled up and toward the driver. I have them time aligned with the matching tweeters in factory sail location (6x9 also factory location). I was trying to avoid pods in the A pillar and there was no other place to put them in the doors of my 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Will I get an appreciable difference moving them up into the A-pillars ? I ask because if I spend the money to have custom A‐pillars done, I'd like to know beforehand that it's worth it SQ-wise. Thanks
Great channel by the way. Subscribed! Beautiful work.
Richard R Hi, you could also mount the mids on the dash firing up against the screen using that as an acoustic lens. Once you have mids playing down low, the sides of the stage will always pull down, plus your & passenger’s legs always interfere with mids down low, which screws things up too.
@@pssound9749 Never even thought of that. Thanks so much for the advice. I keep watching more of your channel because you do some amazing work and your explanations are great. Thanks so much for all you do!
@Richard R
@Pssound
As Peter suggested, you can mount the mids on the top left & right dash corners firing into the windshield (if your vehicle has these mounting locations?). But you want to take care when doing this. Use the following white paper as a guide...
www.jjracoustics.com/128-AES_2010.pdf
In addition, I'll add that most if not all 2" midrange drivers that are mounted in the kickpanels will have limited output capability. This means that they will reach their SPL limits and start to distort just when they are getting loud enough to truly jam. :( The best I've come across in that size range for overall SQ and excellent output capability are the Audiofrog GB25, but you pay for that capability.
If there is any possibility of mounting a small midrange up high and flush in the door panels, I would go that
route...even if it requires small door pods...Andy at Audiofrog says you can successfully use a 2" PVC pipe end cap as the enclosure behind the GB25, and I've tried it and it works incredibly well! Again, I'm recommending the Audiofrog GB25 if your budget permits, because they are TINY but are truly Unicorns when it comes to high-quality, small midrange drivers for a 3-way front stage setup.
This setup will work really well with your existing tweeter and 6"x9" locations. If the midrange cannot be mounted in the doors, I would opt to have custom Sail Panels made to house both the GB25 and a small tweeter. This will most likely be less work and you won't have to modify your A-pillars, just the sail panel trim.
Check out the door install in Andy Wehmeyer's demo vehicle. He's the owner/designer of Audiofrog and this is his daily driver Mercedes. Andy is a funny and good-natured guy!
czcams.com/video/Hf5POoa_axI/video.html
@@bbfoto7248 That center channel sounds like a good way to go.
@@abrahamcale3659
It can work well. HOWEVER, you need to use a DSP that has a proper specialized Center Channel Upmixer. The new Helix DSP units with the "ACO" features have "Real Center" algorithm that works alright but not ideal IME.
Unfortunately, Andy at Audiofrog still has not released his DSP/Amplifier with center channel upmixer.
What do you think about having the tweeters in the kick panels ?
Yours sounds REALLY good
Mr Mr i use someone else’s comment from a current topic on Fb:
,,What bothered me the most when I used kick panels wasn't the fact that the center moved when I had a passenger. It was that horrible rainbow effect that was to me much more irritating.” It sums it well! 😃
Peter, currently building focal flax 3 way active into my vw caddy van , would the 6.5 midbass's be better in enclosuers under/behind the front seats, or spend weeks trying to sort the door cards out..?, would hope to be able to bring it up to you for tuning if that's a service you can do once it's done also! . Cheers love the videos
Forgot to add, there is no where on the kicks I can fit the 6.5 😤
derbi King i definitely offer tuning services, i tune 4-6 cars a month and it’s constantly growing as people start to realise how much it bring to a system.
Well, yes, you have space under the seats, but then make sure the midbass drivers face forward. Also, you won’t be able to play them higher than 160-200Hz from that location if you want seamless integration to the midrange. Make sure the midrange has enough airspace for breathing and the mounting and the area it’s mounted to is solid and dead.
derbi King ahh hopefully you run the 3way fully active, otherwise there’s not much i can do. If so, what DSP and setup do u have?
@@pssound9749 midrange & tweet will be on pillars with plenty or airspace as the pillar has a quarterlight window recess it will be build into, hopefully the midrange gets low enough.
I will build some enclosuers facing the pedals..
Great to hear from you, I will get in tough later on this year to book a tune! Thanks Peter
@@pssound9749 will be full active with a helix v eight mk2 I'm getting through your website. So software your used to!! 😊
Hi I'm running 6.5 inch jbl Component setup the front doors, woofers and tweeters 50hz to 20khz. I have ordered some midbass speakers 260khz to 11.5khz. Do you see issues with this?
Titahibayflier midbass in that range? You mean midrange?
What frequency range a speaker can cover depends on the installation.
Wow, very interesting. I wonder if the effect would be the same if the drivers were in an array setup (2 mids and a tweeter in the middle). Also do you think replacing the widebands with a dome midrange (600Hz to 4kHz) would work?
Dave Dome mids are very difficult to use well in a car: most of them have wide dispersion and they can’t play low enough either!
If you can get a midbass installed in a way that you don’t have major problems caused by the car upto 600Hz, then you may have a good chance, but in reality that is close to impossible!
Ouch, darn!!!! There goes another idea in the toilet. Thanks for the speedy reply. Hold on doesn't Dynaudio make a 3-way component set like that?(Tweeter,dome midrange and midbass)
Dave Lettman Yes, they do, which is pointless in most cars.
Thanks Peter... hey, how do you get your scale to be 5db??? I can't figure out how to do it in my Room EQ Wizard.
Evilthx top left corner in the window.
@@pssound9749 Again, thanks.
The dip around 500Hz makes the sound unnatural. (It is easy to check with winamp equalizer)
what if i use coaxial with fullrange? or i should really use component speaker with fullrange.
moalt wisp Coax & fullrange where?
Hey Peter , is there any way you could do remote tuning ?
Never really do it, as there are so many factors out of my control remotely and i would still charge if there are issues with the system.
What was the program you were using for measuring the response of the speakers?
The Program is called REW (RoomEqWizard)
This was great ! It's nice to see what wideband can do. Thanks
I’m using a wideband midrange...it really does the trick.
Would you play a guitar without a tune? NO? Same. :-)
Are those speaker pasive or aktive in the crosover ?
Grt jermain
All fully active.
If an enthusiast (not a professional installer) wanted to aquire RTA hardware/software, what would be your recommendation? Also cost of purchase, if you'd be so kind. Thanks in advance
Get an UMIK-1 (£100ish) with REW (free). So investments financially is easy, learning to use it is the real challenge.
@@pssound9749 How about the new UMIK-2? Would you say the additional cost is worth it? ($195 vs $79)
@@MikeB1972 the fact that it has more reliable, usb-C connection is already enough to justify the extra investment.
@@pssound9749 ooooo I didn't even notice that 👀
Yeah USB-C is they way lol
Damn man, all my dreams of saving a 2-way focal speaker kit are dead haha. I wanted to add a dsp, add a sub, and make it active instead of passive to XO properly. But yeah as is (just amplifier) it is not sounds good at all, sibiline highs, midrange is very sketchy, nice midbass at least. Will try anyways to do something before throwing another 500€ in the system, sigh...
Well, i've got crazy and bought a set of 3-way focal flax evo, had it at 340€ on sale, couldn't resist. Adding an esx 4x80w to my little focal 4x55w amp, going through musway dsp68, a esx spare wheel sub, some more deadening (done), ofc witring (done), received my spare a-pillars for custom fit of tweet and mid, overall excited as hell and broke haha. Also got some solid alu muscway stands for doors. Again thanks man for all the info! :)
Where do you find those 2" speaker pods?
They were supplied with Audible Physics widebands years ago, but those days are gone. Search for Valicar aluminium speaker pods on eBay, he can make them to order.
im bummed out peter i need help i dont know how to tune worth a damn,i have the pioneer 99.
You should actually make a kind of these underseat active woofers but for midbass and sell for universal applications as not many have fabrication skills to fabricate midbass enclosure
Many brands already sell underseat bass drivers, but i would rather call them just bass drivers, not midbass.
@@pssound9749 yes I know that but do you think that midbass might work in that position. With wideband driver on the A Pillar.
@@jsanyam525 that location for midbass is only good upto 150-170Hz.
Doesn't this strongly depend on the actual car? I ask because in my Mustang it's not that bad as in your example in the video.
Most cabins are very similar and the door locations of midbass drivers related to your listening position are also similar. After tuning more than 200 systems in the last 5years, i can confidently say that most cars have this issue.
@@pssound9749 you're right... have remeasured my car without me sitting in the car. Now i got a big null around 550 on passenger side that wasn't there when measuring when i'm sitting in the car.
@@Cathul i think measurement technique is also something that most people don’t know how to do properly to get the most realistic picture.
So with a 2 way, impossible to get flat?
F G i said in the video that it’s not IMPOSSIBLE, but very close to it! This applies to a midbass in door and tweeter up high. Widebands instead of tweeters is a different story.
Watch this video from 5:30 if you need more clarification on this topic:
czcams.com/video/A3D7pZbgkbY/video.html
Pssound thanks brotha. Planning the next system. But things are pointing towards a 3 way
Peter ... a fejegységen gondolom fehérzaj szól mérés alatt ?!
My question is how in the world did you know the Audible Physics wide bands would work well with those rainbows
Anything works with anything, just needs the right installation and tuning.
you´re eqing too hard! But this is really good video anyway! if i have to tune with REW i use 5ms window size. but in-car i dont EQ that much, slight mic movement and it might be opposite EQ needed. Im working now with old audi a4 b5 and i measured factory blaupunkt door speakers, rather good response, not dipping bad at all!!. But factory tuna can doors aint good, 10-15L enclosures finish withing 3days.
м Slight mic movement shows different readings as your technique and settings are not good.
It took me years of learning, traveling, talking to the best in trade to be consistent, then there’s no such thing as hard EQing!!
@@pssound9749 there was one guy who made video that i cant find right now but he used rta for measuring, moving mic by hand place he wanted for couple of seconds, pinknoise on and averaging on on REW. I might try that for eq setup, but delays i do fixed positions
@@mannine99 this guy?
czcams.com/users/spyders03videos
@@mannine99 setting delays by measuring other than initial setting is a dead end anyway, fine tune by ear is only way
A linear EQ over all bands sounds boring and is not suited in cars. There are many other things which need to be considered.
Mike If you can make a system linear in a car, then you can do anything out of it to suit your preference, but till you have so big peaks & cancellations, you only rather listen to the car & not the music!
You’d hate my Golf then. 8” in location that fires in your hip. Then 4” midrange in location upper door area and tweeters on sails.
OPSODIS style speaker setup, with low frequencies basically emanating from 90 degrees off axis, midrange at about 45 degrees off axis, and high frequencies about 30 degrees off axis
2) Using the entire door for a loudspeaker allows for some epic midbass.
It’s a weird arrangement. But does seems to work.
Why all the rush for this flat response? Greatest namea in the audio industry, especially home audio (high.end and audiophiles) all claim that flat loudspeakers don't soond good at all.
All agree that source or ampflifier should have flat sound output, but not high quality speakers.
Why do you search for liniarity?
Cheers.
It has to be linear down to 200Hz, then raise min 3dB/oct all the way down. Please check the Tuning playlist. 👍
@@pssound9749 i will because i'm interested in the process but didn't had the time to watch all the videos, i've binged them a little. I thought you are looking for a flat sound.
Hello Peter. As an avid fan/stalker. I was watching an Alfa build from a while ago where you got great results from a two way set up. Was that because it ran with a DSP to dial out the dips? Cheers buddy
SIMON CRABB maybe the midbass was in a pod angled a bit more on axis to the driver?
Darmo just rechecked, the mids were in the factory locations. Love to understand this.
@@Itsme-vs9py ohh i'm interested too now haha
@@TrumpWinner I have the same system as in alpha. helix p62c