Recently found your channel and instantly subscribed. I appreciate the way you explain different topics in a straight forward and easy to understand fashion without sounding biased.
“I use the brands I use because well, they’re not shit!” Hahaha. Good stuff. 😂😂😂 Love your work Peter. I’ve learned a ton from your build vids. Cheers 🍻
I have a Helix 10 channel DSP in my current car and could never go back to a passive system. It's like the difference between a 90s flip phone and an Iphone or other modern smart phone. If you like to tinker and experiment with your set-up, a DSP is so much fun.
I’ve been into car audio for 36 years and have learned so much from you. Thinks have really evolved and also become more difficult but the concepts still the same. Dsp changed some of the game but it still takes proper planning to get the most out of what you use. Your videos help reinforce this
@bb foto; first off I want to thank you for your detailed response regarding my original question. I’ll try and address your points as best as possible but forgive me if I go out of order. First, the shop I spoke about regarding tuning my setup when going active is highly reputable and highly recommended as they not only do custom installs but yes, they tune SQ vehicles that compete specifically in SQ so their abilities speak for themselves and given the vehicles I have seen from them their tuning capabilities are the least of my concern. That being said, at the moment I have no desire to compete myself nor am I trying to create a build on par with Peters extensive and amazing work. I’m merely trying to get the most out of the equipment I currently have which is why I found adding an external DSP unnecessary at this point in my build. Call it the diminishing returns situation given where I’m at and what I’m currently trying to achieve. Now I’m certainly not saying that adding an external DSP wouldn’t help but given I have no plans to compete any time soon it just doesn’t seem necessary at this point. Now I agree, if I did end up deciding to compete then obviously I would take many of the things you highlighted seriously. My installer, who’s a good friend of mine has done the install thus far and is currently building my custom fiberglass box for the 10” Eclipse aluminum sub. Now he did my install on the side so to speak with the ‘friendly’ price and he did fantastic work. However, he told me that if I wanted to go active he recommended the shop that will be doing the tune. Now with respect to the big brother to the 80prs, the 99, it just currently not necessary for my build at the moment. Now the car is fully deadened throughout and electrical is upgraded. The only thing I’m currently debating on is my front stage. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of the ID CXS64 V2s, especially for the price. With the clean power they sound wonderful. Plenty of mid bass punch and the oversize silk dome tweets sound great in the higher frequency range. However, I do catch myself looking at other comps, particularly the AudioFrogs. I actually called and spoke to Andy at AudioFrog about this exact topic and he was more than generous with his time and knowledge while answering my questions so if I ever did decide to upgrade my front stage I’d likely go with the frogs. I’m sure I’m forgetting some things and missed addressing your points. Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully and detail your points. I’m smart and humble enough to know what I don’t know and appreciate people more knowledgeable than myself for sharing the knowledge.
Awesome info. Considering building a system after 10 years absent from car audio. Happy I can still discern the facts from the fluff. It's obvious this video series is fact. If anyone cares to, I'd appreciate input to this : I've got my beloved Zapco DC amps from "back in the day". DSP seems to have evolved since then. Are these amps still worth using? Should I consider an alternative to processing? Maybe utilize the power but add another DSP? Even in their heyday, DC series amps by Zapco could be tricky.
One doubt... If I'm using a DSP with many channels, for example an Audison Bit One HD Virtuoso which has 12 input channels and 13 output channels. In this case, will I be able to dispense with all the physical crossovers that come with the speakers and just use the digital crossovers that are inside the DSP? The scenario considered would be this: right front door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; left front door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; right rear door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; left rear door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; trunk with a subwoofer. So there would be 9 speaking devices in total. In this scenario, could all physical crossovers be dispensed with?
Another SOLID video. For the folks that are BROME as FRACK? CHeck out FREEDSP. $15 bucks for the board, and a Crap ton of soldering. And a CRAP TON OF TIME TO SET IT UP. You still need a calibrated Microphone. Dayton Audio has one that works with Audiotool. But your phones auto gain might take over. So be warned.
my head unit has a built-in time delay, that's the closest thing to DSP i've used. however, wasn't until recently i realized that passive crossovers severely limit the RMS you can feed to the components. example: my midbass drivers can handle 125w RMS.. but entire 3 way system will only handle 80w RMS - to protect the passive x-overs, i guess. i'd like to get a DSP so i can feed the midbass 125, the midrange 75, and the tweets 75. then again, that would require a 6 channel amp JUST for the front doors? sheesh..
In most of my installs I always use both. Actively crossover your speakers with the source or head unit and passively cross them over with their own component crossovers.
@ekim andersom It depends on how you implement each of the crossovers. Sometimes you need a steeper XO slope and combining the two XOs achieves that. But if one is a Butterwoth type and the other is a Linkwitz-Riley for instance, it can be a phasey, detrimental mess. In addition, most passive crossovers do not have a HPF for the midwoofers on the bottom end where they need to transition to the subwoofer. So most people will use the XO in the Head Unit to do this job, and let the passive XOs do the rest. But in either instance, you will not have the individual level, XO, EQ, and T/A control for each individual driver that you would get with a stand-alone DSP and separate amplifier channels.
Well most pioneer headunits are great, low distortion and have time alignment, and slope,crossover, for speakers and subwoofer, its limited compared to going active, but focal has done great going passive, and you can get excellent results as long as your using great passive crossovers ,the best ive heard are cdtaudio, morel,focal,illusion audio, as long as they are well known companies, they will sound awesome, but if your competing its different
1 question here, if i remove original crossover from component set, and i only set hpf at amplifier for tweeter and same time i set hpf at dsp. its ok? i mean i set the hpf at amplifier for double protection in case dsp failure or should i go for capacitor ? thanks in advance
Thank you for sharing. I agree that DSPs have limitless capabilities and that sounds great. I see people using multiple filters to achieve phase alignment and other tweaks to make the signal theoretically perfect. Is there a point where all the filters applied to the signal start degrading it ? Maybe you cover this in the next videos of the series.
Hello and thank you for the tons of info you are sharing with us. I have opted recently for an entry SQ Build and i really apreciate if you could advise me on how to get an optical signal for my dsp.9 (without to have to change the existing HeadUnit) the build as follows installed in a Toyota Funcargo model 2000 :) HU :Pioneer MVH-S520 BT Zapco 8 Ch. DSP-Z8IV 3 Way Conponents: K2 Power 165 KRX3 6-3/4" 4 Ch.Amp. Audio System HX Series 85.4 4 Ch.Amp. Audio System HX Series 175.4 Focal 12" p30 performance Thanks
You could use a DAP for lossless file playback, like Fiio players, which have coax digital output, then use a coax->optical converter. You can see an example in the KIA build we shared in December last year.
Depends on the head unit. Some Head units have DSP capabilities but can be very expensive and still be limited in capability compared to having a separate more powerful DSP.
@@Jigaboo1929 If you're asking about stand-alone DSP units, most of the major brands allow you to go to their respective websites and download the software to your PC to play with in "Demo" mode. Download the ones you are interested in and see if it makes sense to you and seems easy (or not) to adjust each of the 5 main settings, which are: 1. The Input-to-Output Routing Matrix (allows you to select which input channels are linked to what output channels). 2. Levels or "Gain" of Each Channel. 3. Time Alignment (digital delay) for Each Channel. Different DSPs handle this a bit differently, and some have options for adjustment in cm, inches, or ms (milliseconds). 4. Crossovers for Each Channel. Fully adjustable Cut-Off frequency, Slopes (dB per Octave), and Type (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc.). HighPass Filter (HPF) & LowPass Filter (LPF) or a combination of both to create a "BandPass Filter" (usually applied to midrange & midbass drivers). 5. EQ. Ideally you want Independent L & R EQ for Each Channel, and either Graphic or Parametric EQ (preferred), or a combination of both. Some units have a separate Input EQ and Output EQ. Most are Windows-based software, only a select few have an Apple/MacOS version. Some also have wireless connection in addition to USB, and a select few have iOS or Android apps for setup and tuning. If you will use any type of digital input, you will want a DSP unit that has a Remote Volume Control, since most signals in the digital domain are transmitted at Full Volume Level to maintain the full bit depth and sample rate of the signal. Most remote controls also allow you to switch between at least two tuning presets so that you have multiple options. For instance, you may want to set up a one-seat competition tune, and then a one-seat daily driving tune, and then maybe a two-seat driving tune for when you have passengers (wife/girlfriend/kids, etc.). Most head units with built-in DSP are severely limited in a few, if not all, of the different tuning adjustments listed above. And the user/adjustment interface or GUI is generally much more difficult to use and only offers crude adjustments, whereas a stand-alone DSP offers very fine adjustments of each parameter. The individual DSP chips and DAC chips in a stand-alone DSP will be better quality and much more powerful, as well the quality of the analog line-level output stage. The more expensive the DSP, generally the better all of the above will be, in addition to better software and extended features. For instance, even a Rockford Fosgate DSR1 will allow you to make huge improvements in SQ. But just due to the inexpensive parts quality and simple/budget circuitry, the SQ of a DSR1 will be nowhere near the SQ of the much more expensive Helix/Brax or new Zapco HDSP units. As with everything else in life, you get what you pay for. IME, the most important aspect to learn when using a DSP, is how applying different Crossover Types AND Slopes will affect the Frequency Response, PHASE rotation/timing, and coherency between drivers. In addition, you need to understand the difference between an Electrical Crossover's response in your DSP, and the "Acoustical Crossover" response (the natural roll-off of a particular speaker), AND how the two SUM together. It is a complex science, but understanding it can be rewarding and improve SQ dramatically. Read as many AES white papers that you can by Floyd Toole, Geddes, and Siegfried Linkwitz, and pickup the latest edition of Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook".
Hey Pete, much like your videos. I hope in future, without dissing brands, you will give advise on brands (top series off them) to use for SQ. I am sure a lot off people would like that. I am sure your gear is top notch, but also sure that there amps and speakers (like Steg and Ground Zero) manufacturers which will be liked by the average SQ heads. No one gave me advises when I started almost 25 years ago; so my garage is pretty full off stuff I then considered high end but wasn’t.
'Khalid Almatrooshi Hi Khalid, exactly this is where it goes wrong. For example the Ground Zero GZPA serie amplifiers (the brass colored amps) are pure SQ. But the problem is that many people associate Ground Zero with SPL. There are so many manufacturers which are not considered as SQ capable that it’s a shame that a couple of brands “must be” SQ. You can’t compare for example a Focal acces with something like an Steg RE650C which is light years better. But Focal also makes also the Utopia Be. The product is the main thing, not the brand name.
If it's possible, I would highly suggest attending as many car audio SQ competitions as possible and listen to as many systems as possible to see and hear what systems and equipment sounds the best TO YOU with the music that you listen to on a daily basis. Most competitors are very willing to give you a demo of their system providing they have the available time. And most are willing to show or share the equipment that they are using in the system and/or to give you advice on what other equipment may work for your car and budget. That's the ONLY way you will truly know what sounds good to you and what equipment achieves that goal! You've got to HEAR IT for yourself!
bb foto I agree completely. The only problem is that times change. For example; how many different setups and brands did Peter tried till now.....A lot. And every time he thought his system was perfect, he found an improvement. Car Audio is changing continuously. What you think sounds perfect today is less with a new discovery you make. For example I fell in love with the Mille .3 series (MLK700, ML1800 and ML2500). Bought the whole .3 line. But a year later I had the chance to listen to the highest three way system of Steg (SQ32, SQ35 ceramic in combination with the ceramic RE65). Now the Mille’s are out, Steg’s are in. What I mean is, there will always be newer/better products which will be better, there is not one speaker or amplifier that fits all for the rest of his or hers life.
@@umtbozkr2358 Agreed. HOWEVER, that is true with EVERYTHING in life and especially with technology....smartphones, HDTVs, cars, etc! Accept the inevitable, because you Cannot Change It! There will ALWAYS be something better next month, next year, etc, or something that already exists that is better, but you haven't discovered it yet. Just try pick "proven'' or universally well-regarded equipment and GET IT INSTALLED! Otherwise, you will just spin in circles forever and never get a system installed at all! Just bite the bullet and DO IT! Once you have your system installed, keep working on the installation quality, fixing small issues, and improving the DSP tune as far as you can take it with the gear THAT YOU CURRENTLY HAVE! That is HOW we learn. It is a PROCESS, and you will gain knowledge & understanding through your real-world experience (there is no replacement for that)! ONLY THEN will you know WHAT and WHY a particular piece of gear or speaker(s) might need to be upgraded or changed to improve the system to achieve your goals. As always, your budget may be a limiting factor at any given time, but just buy the best gear that you can at this moment in time and GET IT INSTALLED so you can START LISTENING TO MUSIC! Don't worry, you can always sell your existing used gear and get a decent price for it if you keep it in good shape in order to help acquire newer or better gear in the future. But you gotta start somewhere or you'll never be able to enjoy listening to anything!
bb foto first off all, I really don’t understand why you are writing some words in capital letters. There is nothing wrong with my eyes. Second; I don’t have to get my gear installed by an installer. I have got enough equipment and experience to do it myself (including measurement equipment). Third; do you really think that you get decent cash for used car audio equipment? I rather save it for nostalgic reasons then sell it for a crap amount. I will never sell my old gear like my JVC KS-N60, or my Alpine H701 or my H800, even if I got the Helix DSP PRO Mark 2 at this moment. The same for my amps and speakers. I don’t mind to spend money on car audio. But like all good installers say; price tag of the gear is not the most important. It’s more important how an install is build in, and measured in to get the best results. And by the way, not everyone with an excellent system does competitions. I do it for myself, not for a trophy. And yes, I attend competitions; but as a listener!
Can we use time alignment and auto eq of pioneer head unit with Active crossover system.... my doubt is the Twitters and mid range speakers will be place at different locations how time alignment will work then
@@pssound9749 thanks for your reply 😄 Will it work with Coaxial speakers placed in door near foot area. I am using Alpine R type. (Hi res) amp sony Gx4 - hi res, now going pioneer new head uint ( hi res) 🤣 I remember ur words, hi res is just like looking for higher megapixels in camera.... still going on as i invested first
Peter, would it be possible to connect 2 amp channels, having separate speakers with own active filter by amp to a single channel of DSP. Wouldn't it allow to use cheaper DSP like 6 channel to connect 8 active speakers + sub?
Dude I'm really looking forward to learning a bit about driver size, placement, and how to choose drivers/components to get a desired result. I'm sure people ask you this stuff all the time, but I'd really appreciate a detailed explanation. I want to try to get the best sound in my van and can use all the help I can get lol. Also, is it possible to design a quality setup with used/budget equipment?
Thurman, technology in speaker design and manufacturing has improved a lot in the last 10 years or so. This makes it easier to find and use more cost-friendly speaker drivers and get great results. :) On the other hand, that same advancement in speaker tech has pushed the prices of a lot of the "high end" drivers to crazy levels. But there are more inexpensive and really good speakers on the market than ever before. You can definitely achieve great SQ with less expensive gear and used gear. You just have to be a bit careful who you buy from and in making sure you are not receiving damaged goods (blown speakers or amps, for instance). I would highly recommend purchasing used gear from established members on the more popular SQ-oriented car audio forums. We are like most audiophiles and are constantly "upgrading" our gear to the latest and greatest, LOL. :-P We call it "G.A.S." or "Gear Acquisition Syndrome"! :) You can usually find nice gear at really decent prices on the forums. You still need to be a bit careful, but it's WAY safer than buying sight-unseen and used off of eBay for example! One other caveat I will add is when buying used "old school" amplifiers or any "old school" gear. Yes, some of these are still amazing amplifiers and have better build quality than some of the newer Chinese and Korean produced amps as well as some of the Euro and U.S. made amps. However, you have to consider their age and that some of the important electronic components within them CAN and WILL degrade over time and with extended use, and especially if abused. The capacitors are usually the first to fail, leak, or bulge, and also the thermal paste that is used between the power transistors and the heat sinks can dry out, harden, and turn to useless powder, loosing all of its effectiveness in dissipating the heat. And excessive heat will kill any amplifier. And when a particular, but simple component fails, it will usually cause other upstream or downstream components to fail as well. I don't want to scare you away from buying and using good "old school" gear, but you do have to be careful, and it sometimes isn't worth the time and expense to have them repaired. Some specific parts or components in old school gear are no longer available or manufactured, so that can render your nice, shiny, old school amp to being a paper weight. Always try to get a "guaranteed to not be D.O.A." and a written agreement for a return & refund if it is not exactly as described. But there are A LOT of great new amplifiers on the market currently that are relatively inexpensive. And IMO, your choice of amplifiers will have the least affect on SQ compared to everything else in your system, as long as you choose decent amps with the appropriate power for each of your speakers and subwoofer(s). #1. Most important is to start with a Good, Clean, Full-Range SOURCE signal from a head unit, DAP or other high-quality playback source. #2. Next (and the largest impact on SQ) are the quality of each of the speakers that you use, and that each speaker will integrate with the next into a complete and coherent "system" by choosing the best combination of drivers to play each passband (subwoofer, midbass, midrange, and tweeter frequencies). For instance, you don't want to choose a midrange or midwoofer that isn't capable of playing (cleanly, without beaming or distortion) up to the usable crossover frequency of the tweeter that you choose...and vice versus. #2-a. Along with the choice of a good speaker "system" comes the attention to, and quality of, the speaker mounting locations and their installation, including that they are in the appropriate enclosure or alignment, whether that be Sealed, Infinite Baffle/Free Air (IB), Ported, or with an Aperiodic Membrane (AP), etc. Effective Sound Treatment and/or deadening for resonance control is a huge part of this equation as well. Any panel resonances, buzzes, or vibrations will smear clarity and tonality, and also mask important imaging cues which help to create a realistic soundstage. #3. Next is the quality and features of the DSP. More expensive DSPs naturally have higher-quality and more powerful DSP chips and better features, along with better ADC & DAC chips and higher-quality analog line-level output circuitry. For instance, even if both were setup with the exact same settings in your system, an inexpensive Rockford-Fosgate DSR1 will NOT sound as good as a Helix DSP or the newer Zapco HDSP V series. Like everything else, you get what you pay for. ;) #4. Supplying adequate, clean 12v Power to the entire system, and using quality RCA & digital interconnect cables is the basis for any good SQ/SQL system as well. This involves making sure your (+) & (-) power wire is large enough gauge to easily handle the amperage draw of all of the connected amplifiers, DSP, HU, fans & lighting, etc. Make sure that ALL of your power & ground connections are solid, with low resistance, and most importantly they should be properly fused. When a wire changes size or gauge via a distribution block for example, that wire should be fused separately to protect the car. #5. Next and LAST to upgrade or concentrate on IMO are the amplifiers. As long as you choose decent, low-noise amplifiers with the appropriate power output (with plenty of headroom for dynamics) for each of your subwoofers and speakers, you are 95% there. Until you dial-in all other aspects of the system above, you will not be able to easily discern a difference in amplifiers unless yours currently have some major anomaly. Perhaps also read my reply above to @the rabbit wolverine Enjoy the music! - B.B.
@@bbfoto7248 I really do appreciate your effort, in writing such an extensive answer! Could you please name any of SQ forums, that you mentioned above, thanks!
I know this is an old video but i have a weird question. I am building an 11 channel system (3 front each side, 2 rear each side, and one sub). Ideally I would buy the helix 12 channel DSP. However, it is bloody expensive (£1.2k) and I already have here a helix 8 channel and a helix 6 channel DSP. Will there be issues in using one for fronts and one for rear? Particularly with time alignment? I have been hearing mixed opinions.
You can use 2 DSPs linked with the optical output. I’d use the 8ch for 3way front and sub, get a HEC HD BT card, use the optical out of that into the DSP MINI and then use that for rearfill. Tuning will be more complex. If you have the chance, i’d highly recommend to bring it down for a tuning session. ✌🏼
Question; I’m running a Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit which has a built in DSP plus all of the advanced EQ settings, etc. Would I be able to just run active without an external DSP given the 80PRS’s capabilities? It just seems a bit redundant. I’m planning on going active but will have a very respectable shop tune it as I’m not up to the task admittedly. I have decent gear in my car so I have to imagine going active will make a difference in the SQ. I want Clean sound but able to get on it when I want. For context I’m running a set of ID CXS 64 V2 comps up front driven by a slash 300/4 and sub is a single 10” Eclipse aluminum 88100 DVC based on the TC Sounds motor. Sub is in excellent condition that will be fed by a Slash 500/1V2. Custom fiberglass box is currently under construction by my installer. All OFC wiring. Currently running passive up front but will be going active. Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. would be helpful and much appreciated. Keep coming with the great content!
That's a great headunit for running an active system. Has enough built in dsp to get very good sound. Get your install shop to put caps on the tweeters for protection.
I run a DEHP9450 from about 2003. It has the active network mode. I run a set of Kenwood KFCXS1703 active off a Rockford Punch P400.4 and a pair of Rockford hx2 12’s off a Kenwood mono block. The deck does a decent job of crossovers and time alignment to dial it all in but your 80prs will have more control than I have. Enjoy your upgrade when you get it sorted!!!
Thank you for the replies! They’re very much appreciated. The reason I asked in the first place is because people were saying no man, you still need an external DSP and I couldn’t even figure out why, lol. If my installer wasn’t trying to sell me one to make some extra cash, why were all of these people telling me that I still needed one. Was driving me crazy! The whole purpose of the 80prs was to end up running it in Network Mode. I knew the peeps here on Peters channel would end the debate. Thanks guys!
@@jamiec6504 First off, @Brendan Good makes an excellent suggestion above to put "protection" capacitors on the tweeters. There is a tutorial discussing this on the Audiofrog Tech Tips Forum titled, "To Cap or Not to Cap? Tweeters in Systems with Active Crossovers". There is also an EXCELLENT step-by-step Tuning Tutorial on the Audiofrog "Testgear" page that you can download as a PDF. I highly recommend that you spend the time reading it and start learning how and why to adjust your own DSP, especially if you already have the 80PRS. Check out the topics on the Audiofrog Tech Tips Forum at the first link, and find the Downloads at the bottom of the page on the second link, including "A Straightforward Stereo Tuning Process and Some Notes About Why it Works" PDF. www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/ testgear.audiofrog.com/ And, sorry Jamie, I'm going to reopen the debate. :-P The 80PRS is great for what it is...which is: an inexpensive, budget-friendly head unit with some "decent" DSP features to help you "get your feet wet" to what is possible with a good SQ system. Again, the 80PRS is really good for what it is. HOWEVER, it has many limitations that might hold you back if you are trying to achieve the incredible level of SQ in systems such Peter's and his colleague's SQ cars. It's just not going to take you there, even with the best tuner in the business making the adjustments. The 80PRS simply does not have the features or level of control to attain that level of SQ. Mainly, that is INDEPENDENT Left & Right Parametric EQ with adjustable Frequency, Level, and 'Q' for Each Output Channel. And there are other limitations in the Crossover section and in T/A, among other things. In addition, because this unit combines both a HU and DSP in one compact unit that is also very affordable, cost-cutting in parts and quality are a given. You just don't get real diamonds at a cubic-zirconia price I'm afraid. :( However, when combined with carefully chosen amplifiers and a speaker setup that is specifically chosen and installed with these limitations in mind, YES, you can achieve Really Good results. But you need to actually understand what these limitations are and how & why they affect the outcome in order to design and install the system accordingly. If you really want to step it up, and still need a single-DIN head unit with built-in DSP, then the Pioneer DEX-P99RS is the head unit you want. It is exponentially better than the 80PRS, and should be considering the price. However, even the DEX-P99RS has some significant limitations in comparison to a good stand-alone DSP unit combined with a standard and decent 4-volt F/R/S RCA preout head unit. If you haven't already purchased the 80PRS, I would almost suggest that you use a newer single-DIN or double-DIN head unit with more modern convenience features (good USB input preferably with Hi-Res and FLAC file playback capability) and the Kicker KEY180.4 DSP/Amp that has an easy to use and effective Auto-Tune function using a supplied microphone that you place on top of the driver's side head rest. It seems like you already have the 80PRS, so use it, but here are the main reasons why I make this suggestion... #1. If you aren't comfortable or familiar with "tuning" a DSP yourself, but want to make some adjustments here and there to start learning. #2. I'm going to speak frankly here and make a bold statement that may piss off a few people. That is not my main intention, I am just speaking the truth, from personal experience over a long career in car audio... IME, Very Few car audio shops and installers, especially custom fabricators IME, are thoroughly knowledgeable in properly using and implementing the features of a DSP to their full capabilities. I'm sorry but it's the truth. As an example, a friend of mine wanted me to tune his new, relatively budget system that we had installed together in his car. The car wasn't quite finished yet and I had to leave town for work, so he finished up the install. At the time, one of the better DSPs that was available was the RF 3Sixty.3 (which is considered crap by today's standards, but if you knew what you were doing you could achieve great results with it despite its quirks). Unfortunately, I was still out of town on business for a few weeks and my buddy got impatient and decided to take his car to a "highly recommended SQ shop" to have them tune the system. I think he paid them ~$400 for the tuning service, which would be a bit high, but reasonable if it was truly a great tuning job complete with microphone measurements and REW RTA corrections, etc. Well, I got back home and he brought his car by my place so I could hear it and get my opinion. He said that he was "okay" or satisfied with the tuning job they did but honestly expected more from what we had installed. Well, I hopped in the driver seat and turned on the system and proceeded to load up my usual set of music test tracks. I was complete SHEIT! The soundstage was barely at dash level, the imaging was diffuse and not pinpoint or even centered. The tonality and balance was just way off and disjointed sounding. All I could do was shake my head in dismay. :( My heart sank and I felt real pity for my buddy. That was good money just thrown out the window which could have gone towards better front component speakers, etc. I put my set of test tone tuning tracks (pink noise, band-limited pink noise, sine-sweeps, and L/LC/C/RC/R positioning click tracks) in the head unit and listened again, which confirmed my suspicions. The tune was truly complete SHEIT and you'd probably have done better if you just blindly input the tuning parameters into the DSP! :/ I could only spend about an hour fixing all of the problems, but just in that time I got a decent tune on it that was Night & Day better! Just to start, they had the subwoofer, one midbass, and the opposite tweeter set at the wrong polarity. And the T/A was COMPLETELY OFF. I got a solid center image that was just under the rear-view mirror on the windshield, with much better impact, tonality, and L/R imaging & staging. I didn't have enough time to fine tune the L/R balance with the PEQ, so there was still a bit of left side-bias (LHD car), but still WAY better than what it had been. The subwoofer also came alive with chest-pounding, dynamic and articulate bass and was all Up Front over the dash, except that now the impact excited some of the rear trim panels in the car which drew the bass to be localized in the back of the vehicle on certain notes. Anyway, this supposedly "high-end SQ shop" which will remain nameless had charged top dollar for a complete clusterfrack of a tune. :mad: I have other similar stories and so do many of my car audio SQ buddys. So long story, short...caveat emptor! Now if the shop has a documented reputation for building and tuning multiple SQ competition cars, then I would say they truly know what they are doing. But again, very few shops and installers have that level of experience when it comes to tuning a DSP. Just my .02 and sorry for the long-winded reply. Just trying to help others not make the same mistakes. - B.B.
bb foto I had forgotten to come back and reply to your message, forgive me. At the the time I didn’t have the time to give you a worthy response given not only the time you put into your response, but the clarity, detail and overall content. So here I am... finally! Anyways, I want to thank you for the reply and content. I recently jumped back into car audio after a long hiatus... early/mid 90’s to now and everything is completely different, like most if not all tech, and I just wasn’t informed and/or knowledgeable enough to know wtf what I was saying let alone doing. However, in the short time since I have learned A LOT more. In fact I relate it to the “drinking through a firehose” scenario... so much information overload. Hence, one of the main reasons I subbed to Peter here after finding his channel providing great content AND knowledge, two things that seem like a rarer combo as I get older. That being said, I’ve read the above links you provided, especially with respect to Audiofrog. I actually called and spoke with Andy who was more than helpful and very patient. (Another rare combo) and have this increased my knowledge (still more than I can imagine out there) but on my way if you will. I also agree with your thoughts on tuners... most are ignorant, full of hubris and therefore Farsi say dangerous. Like most in South Florida unfortunately, full is sheit as you said so Caveat Emptor is something I’ve long said and gone by myself. My car is essentially the same as last time I posted with some minor tweaks here and there, nothing extraordinary but with the holidays, New Years and the craziness behind us for now, I have the time and attention to jump back into my build. Thank you again for everything you posted above as I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. Forgive my late (very late) response and wish you a Happy & Healthy New Year!
Question: I have 12 speakers in my front stage tacoma truck - 2 mids 2 tweeters in each door and 2 mids 2 tweeters in the center stage. What DSP would you run? I only have two 4 channel amps though
@HAMMERI wanted to create a sq spl system and wasnt aware of the full benefit of a dsp. My center contains two 28MM morel silk dome tempo tweeters and two 4 inch FaitalPRO neo mids. I am pushing 2000 watts for my mids and highs and 1500 watts for 3 8 inch subs
@@JeffAdairKTM530 It seems as if you just want it to be loud. Take it from a former drummer (now audiophile) who has lived his life on loud stages and has significant hearing loss from it. TURN IT DOWN! ...Or you'll be hating life as you get older and will no longer be able to appreciate good SQ or enjoy music at all when you have hearing loss AND constant tinnitus (loud ringing in your ears)! I'm sure you'll say, "Pffftt, Whatever, Dude! I'll be fine." But good luck with that a few years down the line. Hindsight is 20/20 young Padawan! With that out of the way... It seems that you have decent speakers for your front stage, but do you have any larger midbass drivers in the doors as well besides the small 4" FaitalPROs??? For any system, but especially for SQ, you Do Not want to use Two Tweeters in the Center Channel setup or in the front Left and Right sides either. That will produce massive comb filtering and horrible frequency response with huge peaks & dips in the response, even if you have independent Time Alignment! This isn't quite as critical in regards to the midrange & midbass frequencies, but still very important to get the phase & timing right there. And to implement a Center Channel properly, you need a DSP that has a specialized center channel "Upmixing" algorithm such as the newer Helix DSP units with "ACO" and "Real Center" processing. To obtain great tonality, SQ, and a perfect sound stage, you first need to have a very Smooth and Even Frequency Response which is as similar as possible for the Left & Right sides AT YOUR LISTENING POSITION. Google the "JBL/Harman Target Curve" for starters. Having multiple drivers covering the same upper frequencies makes that impossible. Otherwise, the best example I could find to make this easily understandable is the CZcams video on the "New Record Day" channel by Danny Richie of GR-Research in his "Tech Talk Tuesdays" series, titled, "Adding a Super Tweeter | Do's and Dont's..." czcams.com/video/JTBAx9x5fUU/video.html Note that the discussion near the end of the video experimenting with different tweeter positions applies to speaker systems in "normal" listening rooms (in a house for example), and they do not apply to the vastly different acoustics within a small vehicle cabin (a nearfield & "minimum phase" environment) which is completely different. Even though they are geared towards home audio speaker systems, I recommend watching all of the other videos by Danny in his "Tech Talk Tuesdays" series!
Nice one Peter! But.....i have a question. What is the best way to use a DSP (let's say 10 channels out) if your car has 13 speakers? Who will we kill first? Who should be left behind? Sorry my english, like a lot your videos, best regards from Portugal
@@pssound9749 Hi Peter! This is not in english but you can get it. O sistema Burmester que equipa a sua C corresponde a 13 altifalantes: frente: 2 vias porta direita 2 vias porta esquerda 1 central 2 woofer's trás 2 vias porta direita 2 vias porta esquerda 2 surround com 9 canais de entrada: 1 canal para frente direita 1 canal para frente esquerda 1 canal para central 2 canal para os 2 woofers 1 canal para traseira direita 1 canal para traseira esquerda 1 canal para surround direito 1 canal para surround esquerdo It's a w205 (i guess you get a lot of that) ;), and it sound not very good. I'm trying to improve but most stock possible, with upgrade match speakers, dsp and a sub with amp (audison and skar or hertz).....Ex: LFD, one mid and tweeter passive crossover, one channel. Love to divide those in two but then i'm out of channels....I'd love to solve it with just an match dsp10....for now.... :) Any ideas? Best regards, love your videos!
Check out the C63AMG video we shared few months ago. He had Burmeister in it too. If you want to run everything, then the Match UP 10DSP / Helix V12DSP can be fine: - 1. Left front doors - 2. Right front doors - 3. Left bass in firewall - 4. Right bass in firewall - 5. Left rear door - 6. Right rear door - 7. Left rear effect - 8. Right rear effect - 9. Centrefill - 10. Sub
Recently found your channel and instantly subscribed. I appreciate the way you explain different topics in a straight forward and easy to understand fashion without sounding biased.
Thank you for the video series, looking forward to the next installment.
“I use the brands I use because well, they’re not shit!” Hahaha. Good stuff. 😂😂😂 Love your work Peter. I’ve learned a ton from your build vids. Cheers 🍻
I have a Helix 10 channel DSP in my current car and could never go back to a passive system. It's like the difference between a 90s flip phone and an Iphone or other modern smart phone. If you like to tinker and experiment with your set-up, a DSP is so much fun.
Great video thanks I'm thinking of getting the Helix mk3 pro
It’s getting closer and closer Pit 🤪
I’ve been into car audio for 36 years and have learned so much from you. Thinks have really evolved and also become more difficult but the concepts still the same. Dsp changed some of the game but it still takes proper planning to get the most out of what you use. Your videos help reinforce this
Very informative 👏
excellent job peter, hopefully there will be reserection of car audio like the 90`s
Excellent info
@bb foto; first off I want to thank you for your detailed response regarding my original question. I’ll try and address your points as best as possible but forgive me if I go out of order. First, the shop I spoke about regarding tuning my setup when going active is highly reputable and highly recommended as they not only do custom installs but yes, they tune SQ vehicles that compete specifically in SQ so their abilities speak for themselves and given the vehicles I have seen from them their tuning capabilities are the least of my concern.
That being said, at the moment I have no desire to compete myself nor am I trying to create a build on par with Peters extensive and amazing work. I’m merely trying to get the most out of the equipment I currently have which is why I found adding an external DSP unnecessary at this point in my build. Call it the diminishing returns situation given where I’m at and what I’m currently trying to achieve. Now I’m certainly not saying that adding an external DSP wouldn’t help but given I have no plans to compete any time soon it just doesn’t seem necessary at this point. Now I agree, if I did end up deciding to compete then obviously I would take many of the things you highlighted seriously.
My installer, who’s a good friend of mine has done the install thus far and is currently building my custom fiberglass box for the 10” Eclipse aluminum sub. Now he did my install on the side so to speak with the ‘friendly’ price and he did fantastic work. However, he told me that if I wanted to go active he recommended the shop that will be doing the tune.
Now with respect to the big brother to the 80prs, the 99, it just currently not necessary for my build at the moment. Now the car is fully deadened throughout and electrical is upgraded.
The only thing I’m currently debating on is my front stage. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of the ID CXS64 V2s, especially for the price. With the clean power they sound wonderful. Plenty of mid bass punch and the oversize silk dome tweets sound great in the higher frequency range. However, I do catch myself looking at other comps, particularly the AudioFrogs. I actually called and spoke to Andy at AudioFrog about this exact topic and he was more than generous with his time and knowledge while answering my questions so if I ever did decide to upgrade my front stage I’d likely go with the frogs.
I’m sure I’m forgetting some things and missed addressing your points.
Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully and detail your points. I’m smart and humble enough to know what I don’t know and appreciate people more knowledgeable than myself for sharing the knowledge.
Very nformitive
Thank you sir
Awesome info. Considering building a system after 10 years absent from car audio. Happy I can still discern the facts from the fluff. It's obvious this video series is fact. If anyone cares to, I'd appreciate input to this : I've got my beloved Zapco DC amps from "back in the day". DSP seems to have evolved since then. Are these amps still worth using? Should I consider an alternative to processing? Maybe utilize the power but add another DSP? Even in their heyday, DC series amps by Zapco could be tricky.
Surely if the sound is time aligned for one person the the rest of the occupants have even worse sound?
No, they just don’t get pin point accurate imaging.
One doubt... If I'm using a DSP with many channels, for example an Audison Bit One HD Virtuoso which has 12 input channels and 13 output channels. In this case, will I be able to dispense with all the physical crossovers that come with the speakers and just use the digital crossovers that are inside the DSP? The scenario considered would be this: right front door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; left front door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; right rear door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; left rear door with 1 tweeter and 1 speaker; trunk with a subwoofer. So there would be 9 speaking devices in total. In this scenario, could all physical crossovers be dispensed with?
This is starting to sound like a different language!! 😂
This is just the warm up then! 😃
Peter is the Dom Toretto of car audio, change my mind.
Another SOLID video. For the folks that are BROME as FRACK? CHeck out FREEDSP. $15 bucks for the board, and a Crap ton of soldering. And a CRAP TON OF TIME TO SET IT UP. You still need a calibrated Microphone. Dayton Audio has one that works with Audiotool. But your phones auto gain might take over. So be warned.
my head unit has a built-in time delay, that's the closest thing to DSP i've used.
however, wasn't until recently i realized that passive crossovers severely limit the RMS you can feed to the components.
example: my midbass drivers can handle 125w RMS.. but entire 3 way system will only handle 80w RMS - to protect the passive x-overs, i guess.
i'd like to get a DSP so i can feed the midbass 125, the midrange 75, and the tweets 75. then again, that would require a 6 channel amp JUST for the front doors? sheesh..
In most of my installs I always use both. Actively crossover your speakers with the source or head unit and passively cross them over with their own component crossovers.
Wouldn't that then lose the advantage of active crossing i.e choosing slope and frequency?
@@gnmurray5955 Generally, Yes. But it depends on the actual XO type, cut-off frequency, and slope of each piece of gear.
@ekim andersom
It depends on how you implement each of the crossovers. Sometimes you need a steeper XO slope and combining the two XOs achieves that. But if one is a Butterwoth type and the other is a Linkwitz-Riley for instance, it can be a phasey, detrimental mess.
In addition, most passive crossovers do not have a HPF for the midwoofers on the bottom end where they need to transition to the subwoofer.
So most people will use the XO in the Head Unit to do this job, and let the passive XOs do the rest.
But in either instance, you will not have the individual level, XO, EQ, and T/A control for each individual driver that you would get with a stand-alone DSP and separate amplifier channels.
Well most pioneer headunits are great, low distortion and have time alignment, and slope,crossover, for speakers and subwoofer, its limited compared to going active, but focal has done great going passive, and you can get excellent results as long as your using great passive crossovers ,the best ive heard are cdtaudio, morel,focal,illusion audio, as long as they are well known companies, they will sound awesome, but if your competing its different
1 question here, if i remove original crossover from component set, and i only set hpf at amplifier for tweeter and same time i set hpf at dsp. its ok? i mean i set the hpf at amplifier for double protection in case dsp failure or should i go for capacitor ? thanks in advance
Thank you for sharing. I agree that DSPs have limitless capabilities and that sounds great. I see people using multiple filters to achieve phase alignment and other tweaks to make the signal theoretically perfect. Is there a point where all the filters applied to the signal start degrading it ? Maybe you cover this in the next videos of the series.
Watch the tuning playlist! 😉
"Don't need demo room......Fuck that" 🤣🤜🤛 luv it!!
🤷🏻♂️😃🤣
Resolut 😉💪
10:26 haha well said
Thank you for input into car audio community Pete! DSPs can do magic but still cannot fix bad installations-do you agree with that?
absolutely
Hello and thank you for the tons of info you are sharing with us.
I have opted recently for an entry SQ Build and i really apreciate if you could advise me on
how to get an optical signal for my dsp.9 (without to have to change the existing HeadUnit)
the build as follows installed in a Toyota Funcargo model 2000 :)
HU :Pioneer MVH-S520 BT
Zapco 8 Ch. DSP-Z8IV
3 Way Conponents: K2 Power 165 KRX3 6-3/4"
4 Ch.Amp. Audio System HX Series 85.4
4 Ch.Amp. Audio System HX Series 175.4
Focal 12" p30 performance
Thanks
You could use a DAP for lossless file playback, like Fiio players, which have coax digital output, then use a coax->optical converter.
You can see an example in the KIA build we shared in December last year.
Love the info more uploads about dsp what if I have a aftermarket head unit is it still needed
Depends on the head unit. Some Head units have DSP capabilities but can be very expensive and still be limited in capability compared to having a separate more powerful DSP.
@@taylornicoletti4033 what's a good one for the price and user friendly?
@@Jigaboo1929
If you're asking about stand-alone DSP units, most of the major brands allow you to go to their respective websites and download the software to your PC to play with in "Demo" mode.
Download the ones you are interested in and see if it makes sense to you and seems easy (or not) to adjust each of the 5 main settings, which are:
1. The Input-to-Output Routing Matrix (allows you to select which input channels are linked to what output channels).
2. Levels or "Gain" of Each Channel.
3. Time Alignment (digital delay) for Each Channel. Different DSPs handle this a bit differently, and some have options for adjustment in cm, inches, or ms (milliseconds).
4. Crossovers for Each Channel. Fully adjustable Cut-Off frequency, Slopes (dB per Octave), and Type (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc.). HighPass Filter (HPF) & LowPass Filter (LPF) or a combination of both to create a "BandPass Filter" (usually applied to midrange & midbass drivers).
5. EQ. Ideally you want Independent L & R EQ for Each Channel, and either Graphic or Parametric EQ (preferred), or a combination of both. Some units have a separate Input EQ and Output EQ.
Most are Windows-based software, only a select few have an Apple/MacOS version. Some also have wireless connection in addition to USB, and a select few have iOS or Android apps for setup and tuning.
If you will use any type of digital input, you will want a DSP unit that has a Remote Volume Control, since most signals in the digital domain are transmitted at Full Volume Level to maintain the full bit depth and sample rate of the signal.
Most remote controls also allow you to switch between at least two tuning presets so that you have multiple options. For instance, you may want to set up a one-seat competition tune, and then a one-seat daily driving tune, and then maybe a two-seat driving tune for when you have passengers (wife/girlfriend/kids, etc.).
Most head units with built-in DSP are severely limited in a few, if not all, of the different tuning adjustments listed above. And the user/adjustment interface or GUI is generally much more difficult to use and only offers crude adjustments, whereas a stand-alone DSP offers very fine adjustments of each parameter.
The individual DSP chips and DAC chips in a stand-alone DSP will be better quality and much more powerful, as well the quality of the analog line-level output stage. The more expensive the DSP, generally the better all of the above will be, in addition to better software and extended features.
For instance, even a Rockford Fosgate DSR1 will allow you to make huge improvements in SQ. But just due to the inexpensive parts quality and simple/budget circuitry, the SQ of a DSR1 will be nowhere near the SQ of the much more expensive Helix/Brax or new Zapco HDSP units.
As with everything else in life, you get what you pay for.
IME, the most important aspect to learn when using a DSP, is how applying different Crossover Types AND Slopes will affect the Frequency Response, PHASE rotation/timing, and coherency between drivers.
In addition, you need to understand the difference between an Electrical Crossover's response in your DSP, and the "Acoustical Crossover" response (the natural roll-off of a particular speaker), AND how the two SUM together. It is a complex science, but understanding it can be rewarding and improve SQ dramatically.
Read as many AES white papers that you can by Floyd Toole, Geddes, and Siegfried Linkwitz, and pickup the latest edition of Vance Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook".
@@bbfoto7248 appreciate the info will look into it sounds complicated
@@taylornicoletti4033 agree 100%. Zapco HDSP V blows even pioneer 99rs out the water and by a long margin
Hey Pete, much like your videos. I hope in future, without dissing brands, you will give advise on brands (top series off them) to use for SQ. I am sure a lot off people would like that. I am sure your gear is top notch, but also sure that there amps and speakers (like Steg and Ground Zero) manufacturers which will be liked by the average SQ heads. No one gave me advises when I started almost 25 years ago; so my garage is pretty full off stuff I then considered high end but wasn’t.
'Khalid Almatrooshi Hi Khalid, exactly this is where it goes wrong. For example the Ground Zero GZPA serie amplifiers (the brass colored amps) are pure SQ. But the problem is that many people associate Ground Zero with SPL. There are so many manufacturers which are not considered as SQ capable that it’s a shame that a couple of brands “must be” SQ. You can’t compare for example a Focal acces with something like an Steg RE650C which is light years better. But Focal also makes also the Utopia Be. The product is the main thing, not the brand name.
If it's possible, I would highly suggest attending as many car audio SQ competitions as possible and listen to as many systems as possible to see and hear what systems and equipment sounds the best TO YOU with the music that you listen to on a daily basis.
Most competitors are very willing to give you a demo of their system providing they have the available time. And most are willing to show or share the equipment that they are using in the system and/or to give you advice on what other equipment may work for your car and budget.
That's the ONLY way you will truly know what sounds good to you and what equipment achieves that goal! You've got to HEAR IT for yourself!
bb foto I agree completely. The only problem is that times change. For example; how many different setups and brands did Peter tried till now.....A lot. And every time he thought his system was perfect, he found an improvement. Car Audio is changing continuously. What you think sounds perfect today is less with a new discovery you make. For example I fell in love with the Mille .3 series (MLK700, ML1800 and ML2500). Bought the whole .3 line.
But a year later I had the chance to listen to the highest three way system of Steg (SQ32, SQ35 ceramic in combination with the ceramic RE65). Now the Mille’s are out, Steg’s are in. What I mean is, there will always be newer/better products which will be better, there is not one speaker or amplifier that fits all for the rest of his or hers life.
@@umtbozkr2358
Agreed. HOWEVER, that is true with EVERYTHING in life and especially with technology....smartphones, HDTVs, cars, etc! Accept the inevitable, because you Cannot Change It!
There will ALWAYS be something better next month, next year, etc, or something that already exists that is better, but you haven't discovered it yet.
Just try pick "proven'' or universally well-regarded equipment and GET IT INSTALLED! Otherwise, you will just spin in circles forever and never get a system installed at all! Just bite the bullet and DO IT!
Once you have your system installed, keep working on the installation quality, fixing small issues, and improving the DSP tune as far as you can take it with the gear THAT YOU CURRENTLY HAVE! That is HOW we learn. It is a PROCESS, and you will gain knowledge & understanding through your real-world experience (there is no replacement for that)!
ONLY THEN will you know WHAT and WHY a particular piece of gear or speaker(s) might need to be upgraded or changed to improve the system to achieve your goals.
As always, your budget may be a limiting factor at any given time, but just buy the best gear that you can at this moment in time and GET IT INSTALLED so you can START LISTENING TO MUSIC!
Don't worry, you can always sell your existing used gear and get a decent price for it if you keep it in good shape in order to help acquire newer or better gear in the future.
But you gotta start somewhere or you'll never be able to enjoy listening to anything!
bb foto first off all, I really don’t understand why you are writing some words in capital letters. There is nothing wrong with my eyes. Second; I don’t have to get my gear installed by an installer. I have got enough equipment and experience to do it myself (including measurement equipment). Third; do you really think that you get decent cash for used car audio equipment? I rather save it for nostalgic reasons then sell it for a crap amount. I will never sell my old gear like my JVC KS-N60, or my Alpine H701 or my H800, even if I got the Helix DSP PRO Mark 2 at this moment. The same for my amps and speakers. I don’t mind to spend money on car audio. But like all good installers say; price tag of the gear is not the most important. It’s more important how an install is build in, and measured in to get the best results.
And by the way, not everyone with an excellent system does competitions. I do it for myself, not for a trophy. And yes, I attend competitions; but as a listener!
Can we use time alignment and auto eq of pioneer head unit with Active crossover system.... my doubt is the Twitters and mid range speakers will be place at different locations how time alignment will work then
somesh yadav forget auto eq on those, it doesn’t really work well!
@@pssound9749 thanks for your reply 😄
Will it work with Coaxial speakers placed in door near foot area. I am using Alpine R type. (Hi res) amp sony Gx4 - hi res, now going pioneer new head uint ( hi res) 🤣
I remember ur words, hi res is just like looking for higher megapixels in camera.... still going on as i invested first
Peter, would it be possible to connect 2 amp channels, having separate speakers with own active filter by amp to a single channel of DSP.
Wouldn't it allow to use cheaper DSP like 6 channel to connect 8 active speakers + sub?
Hi.
That makes zero sense if you want independent control over each speaker. You wouldn’t be able to EQ and time align properly.
Dude I'm really looking forward to learning a bit about driver size, placement, and how to choose drivers/components to get a desired result. I'm sure people ask you this stuff all the time, but I'd really appreciate a detailed explanation. I want to try to get the best sound in my van and can use all the help I can get lol. Also, is it possible to design a quality setup with used/budget equipment?
Thurman why wouldn’t it be possible to use second hand stuff? You just need the right components!
We’ll talk about speakers in part 7.
Thurman, technology in speaker design and manufacturing has improved a lot in the last 10 years or so. This makes it easier to find and use more cost-friendly speaker drivers and get great results. :)
On the other hand, that same advancement in speaker tech has pushed the prices of a lot of the "high end" drivers to crazy levels. But there are more inexpensive and really good speakers on the market than ever before.
You can definitely achieve great SQ with less expensive gear and used gear. You just have to be a bit careful who you buy from and in making sure you are not receiving damaged goods (blown speakers or amps, for instance).
I would highly recommend purchasing used gear from established members on the more popular SQ-oriented car audio forums. We are like most audiophiles and are constantly "upgrading" our gear to the latest and greatest, LOL. :-P We call it "G.A.S." or "Gear Acquisition Syndrome"! :)
You can usually find nice gear at really decent prices on the forums. You still need to be a bit careful, but it's WAY safer than buying sight-unseen and used off of eBay for example!
One other caveat I will add is when buying used "old school" amplifiers or any "old school" gear. Yes, some of these are still amazing amplifiers and have better build quality than some of the newer Chinese and Korean produced amps as well as some of the Euro and U.S. made amps.
However, you have to consider their age and that some of the important electronic components within them CAN and WILL degrade over time and with extended use, and especially if abused.
The capacitors are usually the first to fail, leak, or bulge, and also the thermal paste that is used between the power transistors and the heat sinks can dry out, harden, and turn to useless powder, loosing all of its effectiveness in dissipating the heat. And excessive heat will kill any amplifier.
And when a particular, but simple component fails, it will usually cause other upstream or downstream components to fail as well. I don't want to scare you away from buying and using good "old school" gear, but you do have to be careful, and it sometimes isn't worth the time and expense to have them repaired. Some specific parts or components in old school gear are no longer available or manufactured, so that can render your nice, shiny, old school amp to being a paper weight. Always try to get a "guaranteed to not be D.O.A." and a written agreement for a return & refund if it is not exactly as described.
But there are A LOT of great new amplifiers on the market currently that are relatively inexpensive. And IMO, your choice of amplifiers will have the least affect on SQ compared to everything else in your system, as long as you choose decent amps with the appropriate power for each of your speakers and subwoofer(s).
#1. Most important is to start with a Good, Clean, Full-Range SOURCE signal from a head unit, DAP or other high-quality playback source.
#2. Next (and the largest impact on SQ) are the quality of each of the speakers that you use, and that each speaker will integrate with the next into a complete and coherent "system" by choosing the best combination of drivers to play each passband (subwoofer, midbass, midrange, and tweeter frequencies). For instance, you don't want to choose a midrange or midwoofer that isn't capable of playing (cleanly, without beaming or distortion) up to the usable crossover frequency of the tweeter that you choose...and vice versus.
#2-a. Along with the choice of a good speaker "system" comes the attention to, and quality of, the speaker mounting locations and their installation, including that they are in the appropriate enclosure or alignment, whether that be Sealed, Infinite Baffle/Free Air (IB), Ported, or with an Aperiodic Membrane (AP), etc. Effective Sound Treatment and/or deadening for resonance control is a huge part of this equation as well. Any panel resonances, buzzes, or vibrations will smear clarity and tonality, and also mask important imaging cues which help to create a realistic soundstage.
#3. Next is the quality and features of the DSP. More expensive DSPs naturally have higher-quality and more powerful DSP chips and better features, along with better ADC & DAC chips and higher-quality analog line-level output circuitry. For instance, even if both were setup with the exact same settings in your system, an inexpensive Rockford-Fosgate DSR1 will NOT sound as good as a Helix DSP or the newer Zapco HDSP V series. Like everything else, you get what you pay for. ;)
#4. Supplying adequate, clean 12v Power to the entire system, and using quality RCA & digital interconnect cables is the basis for any good SQ/SQL system as well. This involves making sure your (+) & (-) power wire is large enough gauge to easily handle the amperage draw of all of the connected amplifiers, DSP, HU, fans & lighting, etc. Make sure that ALL of your power & ground connections are solid, with low resistance, and most importantly they should be properly fused. When a wire changes size or gauge via a distribution block for example, that wire should be fused separately to protect the car.
#5. Next and LAST to upgrade or concentrate on IMO are the amplifiers. As long as you choose decent, low-noise amplifiers with the appropriate power output (with plenty of headroom for dynamics) for each of your subwoofers and speakers, you are 95% there. Until you dial-in all other aspects of the system above, you will not be able to easily discern a difference in amplifiers unless yours currently have some major anomaly.
Perhaps also read my reply above to @the rabbit wolverine
Enjoy the music!
- B.B.
@@bbfoto7248 I really do appreciate your effort, in writing such an extensive answer!
Could you please name any of SQ forums, that you mentioned above, thanks!
@@bbfoto7248 thanks you for that explanation, very helpful !
Does head unit have dsp built in?
I’ve just purchased a Alpine iLX 702d and have been playing with sound settings... is it built in dsp ?
2ndchanceinlife some HU has built in DSP with limited features, indeed.
I know this is an old video but i have a weird question.
I am building an 11 channel system (3 front each side, 2 rear each side, and one sub). Ideally I would buy the helix 12 channel DSP.
However, it is bloody expensive (£1.2k) and I already have here a helix 8 channel and a helix 6 channel DSP. Will there be issues in using one for fronts and one for rear? Particularly with time alignment?
I have been hearing mixed opinions.
You can use 2 DSPs linked with the optical output. I’d use the 8ch for 3way front and sub, get a HEC HD BT card, use the optical out of that into the DSP MINI and then use that for rearfill. Tuning will be more complex. If you have the chance, i’d highly recommend to bring it down for a tuning session. ✌🏼
Question; I’m running a Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit which has a built in DSP plus all of the advanced EQ settings, etc. Would I be able to just run active without an external DSP given the 80PRS’s capabilities? It just seems a bit redundant. I’m planning on going active but will have a very respectable shop tune it as I’m not up to the task admittedly. I have decent gear in my car so I have to imagine going active will make a difference in the SQ. I want Clean sound but able to get on it when I want. For context I’m running a set of ID CXS 64 V2 comps up front driven by a slash 300/4 and sub is a single 10” Eclipse aluminum 88100 DVC based on the TC Sounds motor. Sub is in excellent condition that will be fed by a Slash 500/1V2. Custom fiberglass box is currently under construction by my installer. All OFC wiring. Currently running passive up front but will be going active. Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. would be helpful and much appreciated. Keep coming with the great content!
That's a great headunit for running an active system. Has enough built in dsp to get very good sound. Get your install shop to put caps on the tweeters for protection.
I run a DEHP9450 from about 2003. It has the active network mode. I run a set of Kenwood KFCXS1703 active off a Rockford Punch P400.4 and a pair of Rockford hx2 12’s off a Kenwood mono block. The deck does a decent job of crossovers and time alignment to dial it all in but your 80prs will have more control than I have. Enjoy your upgrade when you get it sorted!!!
Thank you for the replies! They’re very much appreciated. The reason I asked in the first place is because people were saying no man, you still need an external DSP and I couldn’t even figure out why, lol. If my installer wasn’t trying to sell me one to make some extra cash, why were all of these people telling me that I still needed one. Was driving me crazy! The whole purpose of the 80prs was to end up running it in Network Mode. I knew the peeps here on Peters channel would end the debate. Thanks guys!
@@jamiec6504
First off, @Brendan Good makes an excellent suggestion above to put "protection" capacitors on the tweeters.
There is a tutorial discussing this on the Audiofrog Tech Tips Forum titled, "To Cap or Not to Cap? Tweeters in Systems with Active Crossovers".
There is also an EXCELLENT step-by-step Tuning Tutorial on the Audiofrog "Testgear" page that you can download as a PDF.
I highly recommend that you spend the time reading it and start learning how and why to adjust your own DSP, especially if you already have the 80PRS.
Check out the topics on the Audiofrog Tech Tips Forum at the first link, and find the Downloads at the bottom of the page on the second link, including "A Straightforward Stereo Tuning Process and Some Notes About Why it Works" PDF.
www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/
testgear.audiofrog.com/
And, sorry Jamie, I'm going to reopen the debate. :-P
The 80PRS is great for what it is...which is: an inexpensive, budget-friendly head unit with some "decent" DSP features to help you "get your feet wet" to what is possible with a good SQ system.
Again, the 80PRS is really good for what it is. HOWEVER, it has many limitations that might hold you back if you are trying to achieve the incredible level of SQ in systems such Peter's and his colleague's SQ cars. It's just not going to take you there, even with the best tuner in the business making the adjustments.
The 80PRS simply does not have the features or level of control to attain that level of SQ. Mainly, that is INDEPENDENT Left & Right Parametric EQ with adjustable Frequency, Level, and 'Q' for Each Output Channel. And there are other limitations in the Crossover section and in T/A, among other things.
In addition, because this unit combines both a HU and DSP in one compact unit that is also very affordable, cost-cutting in parts and quality are a given. You just don't get real diamonds at a cubic-zirconia price I'm afraid. :(
However, when combined with carefully chosen amplifiers and a speaker setup that is specifically chosen and installed with these limitations in mind, YES, you can achieve Really Good results. But you need to actually understand what these limitations are and how & why they affect the outcome in order to design and install the system accordingly.
If you really want to step it up, and still need a single-DIN head unit with built-in DSP, then the Pioneer DEX-P99RS is the head unit you want. It is exponentially better than the 80PRS, and should be considering the price.
However, even the DEX-P99RS has some significant limitations in comparison to a good stand-alone DSP unit combined with a standard and decent 4-volt F/R/S RCA preout head unit.
If you haven't already purchased the 80PRS, I would almost suggest that you use a newer single-DIN or double-DIN head unit with more modern convenience features (good USB input preferably with Hi-Res and FLAC file playback capability) and the Kicker KEY180.4 DSP/Amp that has an easy to use and effective Auto-Tune function using a supplied microphone that you place on top of the driver's side head rest. It seems like you already have the 80PRS, so use it, but here are the main reasons why I make this suggestion...
#1. If you aren't comfortable or familiar with "tuning" a DSP yourself, but want to make some adjustments here and there to start learning.
#2. I'm going to speak frankly here and make a bold statement that may piss off a few people. That is not my main intention, I am just speaking the truth, from personal experience over a long career in car audio...
IME, Very Few car audio shops and installers, especially custom fabricators IME, are thoroughly knowledgeable in properly using and implementing the features of a DSP to their full capabilities. I'm sorry but it's the truth.
As an example, a friend of mine wanted me to tune his new, relatively budget system that we had installed together in his car. The car wasn't quite finished yet and I had to leave town for work, so he finished up the install.
At the time, one of the better DSPs that was available was the RF 3Sixty.3 (which is considered crap by today's standards, but if you knew what you were doing you could achieve great results with it despite its quirks).
Unfortunately, I was still out of town on business for a few weeks and my buddy got impatient and decided to take his car to a "highly recommended SQ shop" to have them tune the system. I think he paid them ~$400 for the tuning service, which would be a bit high, but reasonable if it was truly a great tuning job complete with microphone measurements and REW RTA corrections, etc.
Well, I got back home and he brought his car by my place so I could hear it and get my opinion. He said that he was "okay" or satisfied with the tuning job they did but honestly expected more from what we had installed.
Well, I hopped in the driver seat and turned on the system and proceeded to load up my usual set of music test tracks. I was complete SHEIT! The soundstage was barely at dash level, the imaging was diffuse and not pinpoint or even centered. The tonality and balance was just way off and disjointed sounding. All I could do was shake my head in dismay. :( My heart sank and I felt real pity for my buddy. That was good money just thrown out the window which could have gone towards better front component speakers, etc.
I put my set of test tone tuning tracks (pink noise, band-limited pink noise, sine-sweeps, and L/LC/C/RC/R positioning click tracks) in the head unit and listened again, which confirmed my suspicions. The tune was truly complete SHEIT and you'd probably have done better if you just blindly input the tuning parameters into the DSP! :/
I could only spend about an hour fixing all of the problems, but just in that time I got a decent tune on it that was Night & Day better! Just to start, they had the subwoofer, one midbass, and the opposite tweeter set at the wrong polarity. And the T/A was COMPLETELY OFF.
I got a solid center image that was just under the rear-view mirror on the windshield, with much better impact, tonality, and L/R imaging & staging. I didn't have enough time to fine tune the L/R balance with the PEQ, so there was still a bit of left side-bias (LHD car), but still WAY better than what it had been.
The subwoofer also came alive with chest-pounding, dynamic and articulate bass and was all Up Front over the dash, except that now the impact excited some of the rear trim panels in the car which drew the bass to be localized in the back of the vehicle on certain notes.
Anyway, this supposedly "high-end SQ shop" which will remain nameless had charged top dollar for a complete clusterfrack of a tune. :mad:
I have other similar stories and so do many of my car audio SQ buddys. So long story, short...caveat emptor!
Now if the shop has a documented reputation for building and tuning multiple SQ competition cars, then I would say they truly know what they are doing. But again, very few shops and installers have that level of experience when it comes to tuning a DSP.
Just my .02 and sorry for the long-winded reply. Just trying to help others not make the same mistakes.
- B.B.
bb foto I had forgotten to come back and reply to your message, forgive me. At the the time I didn’t have the time to give you a worthy response given not only the time you put into your response, but the clarity, detail and overall content. So here I am... finally!
Anyways, I want to thank you for the reply and content. I recently jumped back into car audio after a long hiatus... early/mid 90’s to now and everything is completely different, like most if not all tech, and I just wasn’t informed and/or knowledgeable enough to know wtf what I was saying let alone doing. However, in the short time since I have learned A LOT more. In fact I relate it to the “drinking through a firehose” scenario... so much information overload. Hence, one of the main reasons I subbed to Peter here after finding his channel providing great content AND knowledge, two things that seem like a rarer combo as I get older.
That being said, I’ve read the above links you provided, especially with respect to Audiofrog. I actually called and spoke with Andy who was more than helpful and very patient. (Another rare combo) and have this increased my knowledge (still more than I can imagine out there) but on my way if you will. I also agree with your thoughts on tuners... most are ignorant, full of hubris and therefore Farsi say dangerous. Like most in South Florida unfortunately, full is sheit as you said so Caveat Emptor is something I’ve long said and gone by myself. My car is essentially the same as last time I posted with some minor tweaks here and there, nothing extraordinary but with the holidays, New Years and the craziness behind us for now, I have the time and attention to jump back into my build.
Thank you again for everything you posted above as I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. Forgive my late (very late) response and wish you a Happy & Healthy New Year!
Active with dsp.
Question: I have 12 speakers in my front stage tacoma truck - 2 mids 2 tweeters in each door and 2 mids 2 tweeters in the center stage. What DSP would you run? I only have two 4 channel amps though
1337 IOT You need 6ch for full active then for the front and 2 more ch for subs, so any 8ch DSP.
@@pssound9749 the two mids will be sharing 1 channel then right? will it not effect the Time alignment to share a channel?
@HAMMERI wanted to create a sq spl system and wasnt aware of the full benefit of a dsp. My center contains two 28MM morel silk dome tempo tweeters and two 4 inch FaitalPRO neo mids. I am pushing 2000 watts for my mids and highs and 1500 watts for 3 8 inch subs
@@JeffAdairKTM530
It seems as if you just want it to be loud. Take it from a former drummer (now audiophile) who has lived his life on loud stages and has significant hearing loss from it. TURN IT DOWN! ...Or you'll be hating life as you get older and will no longer be able to appreciate good SQ or enjoy music at all when you have hearing loss AND constant tinnitus (loud ringing in your ears)!
I'm sure you'll say, "Pffftt, Whatever, Dude! I'll be fine." But good luck with that a few years down the line. Hindsight is 20/20 young Padawan!
With that out of the way...
It seems that you have decent speakers for your front stage, but do you have any larger midbass drivers in the doors as well besides the small 4" FaitalPROs???
For any system, but especially for SQ, you Do Not want to use Two Tweeters in the Center Channel setup or in the front Left and Right sides either. That will produce massive comb filtering and horrible frequency response with huge peaks & dips in the response, even if you have independent Time Alignment!
This isn't quite as critical in regards to the midrange & midbass frequencies, but still very important to get the phase & timing right there.
And to implement a Center Channel properly, you need a DSP that has a specialized center channel "Upmixing" algorithm such as the newer Helix DSP units with "ACO" and "Real Center" processing.
To obtain great tonality, SQ, and a perfect sound stage, you first need to have a very Smooth and Even Frequency Response which is as similar as possible for the Left & Right sides AT YOUR LISTENING POSITION. Google the "JBL/Harman Target Curve" for starters. Having multiple drivers covering the same upper frequencies makes that impossible.
Otherwise, the best example I could find to make this easily understandable is the CZcams video on the "New Record Day" channel by Danny Richie of GR-Research in his "Tech Talk Tuesdays" series, titled, "Adding a Super Tweeter | Do's and Dont's..."
czcams.com/video/JTBAx9x5fUU/video.html
Note that the discussion near the end of the video experimenting with different tweeter positions applies to speaker systems in "normal" listening rooms (in a house for example), and they do not apply to the vastly different acoustics within a small vehicle cabin (a nearfield & "minimum phase" environment) which is completely different.
Even though they are geared towards home audio speaker systems, I recommend watching all of the other videos by Danny in his "Tech Talk Tuesdays" series!
Nice one Peter! But.....i have a question. What is the best way to use a DSP (let's say 10 channels out) if your car has 13 speakers? Who will we kill first? Who should be left behind? Sorry my english, like a lot your videos, best regards from Portugal
Where are those 13 speakers located?
@@pssound9749 Hi Peter! This is not in english but you can get it.
O sistema Burmester que equipa a sua C corresponde a 13 altifalantes:
frente:
2 vias porta direita
2 vias porta esquerda
1 central
2 woofer's
trás
2 vias porta direita
2 vias porta esquerda
2 surround
com 9 canais de entrada:
1 canal para frente direita
1 canal para frente esquerda
1 canal para central
2 canal para os 2 woofers
1 canal para traseira direita
1 canal para traseira esquerda
1 canal para surround direito
1 canal para surround esquerdo
It's a w205 (i guess you get a lot of that) ;), and it sound not very good. I'm trying to improve but most stock possible, with upgrade match speakers, dsp and a sub with amp (audison and skar or hertz).....Ex: LFD, one mid and tweeter passive crossover, one channel. Love to divide those in two but then i'm out of channels....I'd love to solve it with just an match dsp10....for now.... :) Any ideas? Best regards, love your videos!
Merc 13 speakers, you know that....Bass to fozzy, mid's too high, not the best stage....I will feed back my adventures....Lol
Check out the C63AMG video we shared few months ago. He had Burmeister in it too. If you want to run everything, then the Match UP 10DSP / Helix V12DSP can be fine:
- 1. Left front doors
- 2. Right front doors
- 3. Left bass in firewall
- 4. Right bass in firewall
- 5. Left rear door
- 6. Right rear door
- 7. Left rear effect
- 8. Right rear effect
- 9. Centrefill
- 10. Sub
@@pssound9749 I will try that setup! Just all new for me, i will show my disasters latter....Thanks!!! Please keep doing this nice videos!
First
iAnders1000 😂😂