Underwater Ram Pump
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- This video shows that the ram pump can be used underwater. I wanted to find out how practical it was to run the pump underwater. Seems like the pump works well and is a little bit quieter.
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The pressure of the water in the pond would restrict the output of the waste valve slightly, so that could be the reason why the flow rate was a bit less on the underwater test. However, pressure gauges like the one you have are measuring the difference between the pressure on the system and atmospheric pressure. The gauge being underwater means that there is actually more than atmospheric pressure on the outside of the gauge. It seems to me that this would be the reason why the gauge seems to read less output pressure when it's underwater. Maybe try placing the pressure gauge above the water later on in the output hose?
Great video! Very informative, cheers!
I think if the waste valve is submerge the pressure will increase, it means the lift will be higher. It is the same that you are putting additional weight to the waste valve.
@@maximoincognito4881 This makes sense to me as it relies on the velocity head to force the waste valve closed and then that stored momentum forces the other check valve open. More pressure on the outlet of the waste valve should result in more required velocity to shut it and this result in more volume being forced into the other valve.
I think it runs in the wrong direction, other vid shows the "watertower" first, then the valve, depend of die impuls...
There are a few different configurations for the pump.
The the waste Valve under water is pumping at a slower rate due to the extra resistance and pressure of being under water, it has less cycles per minute. In the Video, the ""out of water"" test started at 5:07, at 5:20 it had 15 cycles, miraculously the underwater test started at 7:07, at 7:20 it had 13 cycles. Additional pressure of being under water slowed down the cycle of the waste Gate, slower cycle, less pressure due too much back pressure escaping.
Make a closed-loop system that can run continuously. You'd have to capture the water at the ram and cycle it to the delivery or to the input. If you can make one work, then you have achieved what they have been trying to do for years. I'd thought of different methods to do that, but always come back to creating a small volume pump that is powered off the ram pump. I'd like to see someone pull this off. It would revolutionize ram pumps.
I did the math on it, and seems you could almost double your run time, but eventually it will run dry.
If you lift the WHOLE operation off the ground you create another head of pressure between the bath tub and the ground. Perhaps you could use second head to run another ram pump or pelton wheel etc.
i think you were still siphoning
@haz8821 i agree with. Ther must be some siphoning happening, otherwise the lower head pressure should result in less volume
The reason for the slightly less pressure underwater is that the height up the water level in the black tub is what determines the ' drop ' of your ram pump. You lost a foot of drop when the tub was full. Depending on the situation, it still might be a good thing just for noise reduction.
As a method of muffling the pump, this is excellent. Further the ‘spray’ is contained and therefore usable elsewhere. 👍
Under ideal conditions of the water supply you could bury the system and put the pump under water to keep the system from freezing in the winter and run the system year round to water live stock and etc.
Yep.. works here.. Just need to bury 800 feet of delivery line now. :)
That is really good feedback! I have a number of people up in Canada that have very cold weather and could use this info.
I like the idea! Well worth giving a test.
@@LandtoHouse i have done lots of testing here.. other videos as well regarding cold weather: czcams.com/video/uRxuTOWz1JQ/video.html
Placing the pump in an open storage tank/trough is a great way to capture the waste water for storage like for watering stock before lifting the supply to an elevated tank to provide pressure for sprinklers.
Cows wouldnt let that thing last a day.
@@Seriouslydave certainly not in this configuration but be a little creative.
@@AudaxK9Academy i would pipe the waste outlet to the tank on the other side of the fence it should be the same as running it under water if you dont go too high (same level as top of holding tank same pressure) or a bell/u siphon.
The weight of the water when the tub is full reduces the pressure. The waste water has a more difficult time exiting the pipe so pressure going to the elevated pipe is less. Its like you put a vertical pipe in the waste valve, the taller the vertical pipe gets, the lower the pressure. The flow rate =Area of the pipe times the velocity of the water. 8 Lbs of pressure in not sufficient to change the velocity significantly since the water stops accelerating when the valve is closed (which it is half the time). Almost 100% of the flow rate will be determined by the vertical difference between the 5 gallon bucket and the top of the waste valve. If the waste valve is underwater then the flow rate will be determined by the difference between the top of the water and the 5 gallon bucket. You don't need the long sloping pipe. Just move the 5 gallon bucket next to the waste water pond and experiment with moving the bucket up and down. Good video! cheers!
Michael Edwards 😩😩
Michael, are you saying that the pressure of the water that is pressing on the waste valve makes a difference on the flow of the water and pressure of the water in the pipe that is pushing out of the pump (not the pipe that delivers water from the source).? if so, would the height of the bucket (source) opposed to the height of the water pushing back on the waste valve have any effect on the pressure of the pump? And if so, would more one way valves up the waste pipe mitigate any ill effects caused by back pressure on the waste valve, and if so, would you think that it could be possible that the waste water could then be pumped high enough be gravity fed back into the source bucket so that there is only water lost through evaporation and or consumption...... Hypothetically speaking?
So, if someone had an NFT garden system where the source water ( rain collection barrels) were at height point 0, water flowed to a ram pump at, say, height point -10 (down hill to the end of the NFT system), could the waste water be saved by having it pump up to just above the source level (say, height point 1) so that the NFT system flows back into the source bucket at point 0. This would then have the water pumped from point -10, and the waste water pumped from point -10 back into the NFT pipes at point 1 which then flows back to the source at point 0 and starts the flow all over again and eliminating the wasting of the waste water.......Hypothetically.
Hi Jeff, The energy the system uses is from the potential energy of the source. the longer and farther it falls, the more energy it has. A lot of energy is lost with friction of the water in the pipes and the efficiency of the check valves as well as the efficiency and size of the accumulation chamber. See czcams.com/users/mekanizmalar for a good explanation of this. You will never be able to recycle all of the waste water due to the Law of conservation of energy. A major source of energy loss in this system is the speed of the check valves closing and their size. See Bohumir Stehlik's youtube channel where he makes some very efficient valves for a ram pump from hardware store parts. Cheers!
this design makes more sense than above ground ram pumps because the pressure of the water would help keep less air in the system so probably pump move volume/pressure.
..interesting it shows the same volume.
Nice to see someone test underwater as thats what I was planning.
I have a feeling that this works well with minimal underwater depth. If it were to go too far it would start to reduce the head pressure because the hydrostatic pressure increases.
Land to House
Connecting a stand pipe to the the waste valve to above water level should fix this?
Would need a long rod to prime the pump.
Adding that pipe would actually reduce the head pressure.
The velocity of the water in the drive pipe is directly related to the difference in water level between the source and the water level above the waste valve. As this system is effectively driven by kinetic energy less head difference = less velocity = less energy = less pressure. Also even though you put the pipe up to the top of that tower the work done was actually only the difference in level between the top surface of the source (your bucket) and the level of the end of your hose. Which is why there was not much of a difference in the volume of water pumped.
This pump is the key to how the Pyramids were built.All ancient structures are located near rivers with headflow.Thanks Seth,hydraulic tools next please powered by a ram.pump.
I have watched that video about the pyramids. Very interesting. There is likely a way to get the ram p ump pressure to work with some tools.
If you submerge the pump under one feet of water, then you also reduce the head pressure by one feet. That must lead to a reduced pressure and flow rate. The flow rate might not be reduced so much because the efficiency of the pump was increased due to a longer cycle time. A comment by Steel Arms said that you have 15 cycles in 13 seconds with the non-submerged pump, but only 13 cycles in the same 13 seconds with the submerged pump.So you are closer to the optimal one-cycle-per-second ratio with the submerged pump.
Hii i am from india , i work on ra. Pump project as you say it reduce pressure by one feet and also reduced flow rate . But my question is it reduce incoming flow rate ( water coming from source to pump ) or only reduce lifting flow rate ?
Try adding a snorkel on the swing valve to lessen the underwater pressure. By decreasing the the depth of pressure directly applied to the exit you will regain the loses you are seeing, perhaps. Love to see it tested.
This wiuld have worked well where I was feeding a fish pond and wanted to irrigate the hillside above the pond.
Ours works under water in our spring bed - It makes it VERY quiet. We lift water 300' away and 60' high to a tank for our barn.
Seth thanx as always. The differential in hammer side pressure is from submersion. Total head pressure/back pressure if raised will eventually, obviously reach neutral. The volumetrics of your system will obviously have a similar range/ratio of supply dump to lifted water.
having the pump completely submerged would reduce freezing in very cold weather. Depending on how cold, of course. It should withstand frost. Not saying about the pipes, however. It would also accommodate changing water levels in the water source. One wouldn't have to worry if the creek rose like after a big rain. I'm amazed it works underwater! Thanks for the video.
I'm impressed. You teach I learn. Thank you !!!
Thank you for watching! I have tons of other ram pump videos too!
I thought that sound reduction would be a benefit of putting the ram pump underwater. But was disappointed that I didn't really hear a difference. Glad you explained that there was a difference in sound volume level.
The difference in air pressure compared to water pressure shows the difference in the pressure readings.
The water submersion also cushioned the system so the noise was reduced.
This is awesome. I was wondering the other day actually, if that would work. A basic search brought me here. Nice work, and thanks for taking the time. new sub! Cheers!
Another advantage I can see; having the supply and pump underwater in freezing weather where the ice level above the pump might cause a problem.
Yes good point! As long as the pond has moving water it should work to prevent freezing!
Saw this vid only now, but before the advantage at the end came up, that was my idea to.
We have freezing over of ponds now and again, but I have to go back over 20years that you could drive a car on a pond/lake. About 10 years ago we had our last +10cm of ice. Putting is 1m down would have given you year round supply in this kind of weather. Problem is that 0,5m of pressure is hard to create over here :-p
The delivery pipe was kinked just near to the pressure gauge which I think is why the delivery flow was similar despite the 25% reduced pressure. Interesting demo, thank you.
hi, you can increase efficiency in this setup at 2 points. first forget the plastic feedpipe, replace it with rigid material like ordinary steel. 2nd remove that right angle elbow from the feed. need to achieve least internal resistance in order to speed up flow when water runs, that way water collects more kinetic energy (ready to release). then upon valve closing (the water hammer occurs) a flexible feedpipe will absorb part of the hit, reducing the waterhammer effect. so a dead strait feed pipe (preferably seamless steel) will make you the most happy ram pump owner.
i would reduce noise by soundproofing shells (there are some ready made wrap around shells against noise on sewage drains) or can try to bury underground the feedpipe (not sure how much soil dampen noise). especially you change it to steel it will carry a terrible ping on water hammer.
rubberizing the valve seat may reduce the valve noise.
when you place all stuff underwater it has to work against static pressure (due to the depth of release orifice) and some kind of plus resistance because the water has to run out into dense water not into less dense air (through the valve). as the missing 10psi has shown it precisely.
if you have a live spring on your property for less noisy operation also my consider a spiral pump.
lurkertech.com/water/pump/tailer/
regards, lev
Yes you are right. The rigidity of the drive pipe makes a big difference. Check out this video test that I ran to see the difference of poly pipe vs pvc. czcams.com/video/heLUeTGWz94/video.html
This summer I am going to be installing 90s 45s and 22 degree angles to see how it effects the pressure wave and output of the ram pump. Should show that the straight pipe is far better than having angles.
Thanks for watching.
We’re seeking land along a river for our prototype off-grid Christian Retreat & Events center. With enough river frontage and drop, it looks like this concept would work for us. This is great information. Thank you!
Fun Fun and Fun, I am retired and have some freedom of schedule. Where are you looking to locate your ministry. I have had a vision for something like that for 30 years. God Bless and I hope it is the Lord's will for you guys! I'm in central Virginia.
@@clarencecarter960 we're in Central Arkansas near Searcy. We need to get creative due to the way real-estate prices have increased, especially since 2020. It would be nice to connect with you sometime and share visions. Blessings-Jeff
I still think there is siphoning action that skewed the true flow capacity for both a dry and submerged pump. The siphon action is created as the water drains down the tube that's wrapped around the rafter. That falling action will cause siphoning (pulling) of water up the tube and down into the container below. I think the outflow tube from the pump should go directly from the pump up to the catch container, without being coiled over the rafter above. I think you have to do it again!!! :-)
It makes sense to me that the submerged pump would produce lower pressure since the valve will close slower causing a slight loss in peak ram pressure.
I believe the reason the volume delivered by both situations is similar is because the average pressure generated while the output valve is open is limited by the work being done and both tests did the same work.
In this case it's essentially the difference in height between the pump and the open end of the hose that's being benchmarked. You would see a much greater difference if the output hose were long enough to present a significant resistance or if the height difference was great enough to hold the pump near its maximum output.
P S. Apologies for the necro
Good idea Paul. I was thinking in that experiment also. A question. Instead of wasting that water that came from the valve, can you connecto a hose a put it back to the basket? Just a idea.
I kmow this video is old, and I looked through alot of your comments. Just wanted to point out that when you were checking pressure. Did you notice that when tub was empty you shut valve off right at the guage first, and when tub was full you shut valve off before check valve. Measuring pressure in air tube as well. That may be readon for drop
So glad you caught the siphon issue. Makes it an excellent comparison, great job!
Sir. My name is alararic tomambo i wish to buy from you one unit of your ram pump can you include the diagram spicification of all parts my phone no. Is 559 253 3378 I am from Fresno ca 93722 pls. Quote the price of your ram pump including the delivery. Thanks a lot.I need for my farm in the philippines.
He only half caught it. Yeah it took the back pressure to make it work, however, taking that hose up in the eves was still siphoning everything that was above the outlet of the hose. It did show us that there was enough lift to get water all the way up there once, but once some was coming down to the tub, there was still siphoning in the gallons per min formula. It was the same as if he would have just put the outlet of the hose in the tub without bothering with running through the rafters.
I am glad to see it will work under water. This could help muffle the sound. Especially if there is a noise of a water fall nearby would be good. A friend was concerned about the noise attracting marauders in the aftermath of an apocalypse. I will be able to tell him about your experiment.
Underwater does seem to help some with the sound. I have a feeling it could also help with freezing in the cold months. . . . I have actually received email from many people in parts of the world who have said they lose ram pumps from theft. The sound is an issue because it draws people in to see what is going on.
@@LandtoHouse Maybe a cammo and insulated box/cover over the pump assembly to obscure, and deaden the sound? Also black pipe or hose?
@@dgbasile this summer I hope to make a pump that is stealth and hidden. An insulated box is a must.
I remember reading in an article a long time ago about WATER HAMMER pumps that mentioned that a larger flow to a higher location a distance away could be obtained by using a vertical loop with the down pipe acting as a siphon working against the drag of water flowing in the pipe uphill to the final use spot. Many people associate the French Montgolfer brothers with hot air balloon fame. They also are reputed to be the inventors of the ram pump using cannon balls and an up sloped pipe as the waste valve. The flowing water would start to flow and push the cannon ball up slope to a smaller outlet, then the water inertia would lift another cannon ball vertically in a larger diameter capped pipe and tee.
Love the tests! I am very interested to see how much more flow or if any you get by submerging the pump 1 or 2 feet into the creek compared to mounting it just out of the water. Do you actually gain more head pressure or does the hydrostatic pressure of the water it's submerged in cancel out any extra head pressure?
Submerge the Ram Pump a little bit is good, as I think the real benefit is the sound that is annoying for other people in the surrounding. Thank you for this exercise, I learned a lot from this. I subscribed to your channel, and will be seeing your other videos as well. Thank you, God bless you, and More power to you. 🙂
I just had a thought as I know you have a hydroelectric generator. What about taking the water that has passed through your generator down stream and then using a single or multiple ramp pumps to circulate that water back up to the intake barrel for you hydroelectric, thus increasing your available water source flow and creating more electricity/output?
Only a small portion of water is lifted through delivery pipe and more water run downstream.
@@saratchandra2995 depends on how many you have and their sizing perhaps?
I believe the reason that pressure under the water is less than the one that open to the air is that the valve for the water outlet (waste one) has friction (suction/vacuum effect) by the outside water when it is open/closed.; this reduces velocity for the valve to close or open which reduces the hammer affect that leads to reduce the pressure; whereas the systems open to the air one, the valve can close or open faster than underwater one does; this produces stronger hammer affect, leads to produce stronger pressure (not much but can be significant different in water volume in over long period of time).
I bet it is how deep the ram pump is in the tank. As the water height increases in the so called pond there is more water weight applied to the opening valve. The higher the water rises above the pump the lower the PSI pressure will get until the pump eventually will slow down and stop working. To check this you would have to make the test longer and see if your pressure drops after 30 seconds of time. Such as a whole minute, or longer and see if the pressure drops. I like the idea of an underwater ram pump.
First I have never made a Ram Pump! But many of the videos I have seen said they work best if the feed pipe is twice as the delivery pipe. And that sounds like it right because it can deliver more water faster and have a larger volume of water moving when the wast valve slams shut. But that is just doing things up in my head!
Yes normally the delivery pipe going up hill is half the size of the drive pipe. This can save some money on that pipe. The drive pipe needs to match the waste valve.
Add a pressure gauge to your pressure tank so that you can monitor the operating pressure of the underwater ram pump, I suspect it will be the same. Rig it like you did on the one next to the flume with a T under the pressure tank.
My humble request for you, is to do similar content, but with an added conservancy of water. Think as if you are in a desert where captured harvest water is precious. Recycling water and multitasking it along its path. Also a stand pipe decreases the loss of hammer energy from the supply line.
I noticed the 1st time you took the pressure reading you turn off the valve on the Y going to pressure gauge before stopping the intake but not the 2nd time.
Yes, I caught that also. I think he was reading the pressure from the elevated water column in the second reading.
...my observation...the secret IS that a ram pump must/should be below the water source (a certain height to help determine how far up it will pump water) in order to take advantage of the ram effect to get the water pumping...as you stated...it won't work in a lake and I'm pretty sure it won't work in a well...and a direct feed to the pump is better than having 90 degree turns that slow the water speed...and if you have a hose going up to the top of you structure as you have...that's what you want it to do but wouldn't it create a siphon effect pulling water down and out the exit opening of the hose...my observation is probably all wrong...thank you...
You nailed it on all points! A siphon is what happened on that delivery. When I moved the catchment tub to the top and made sure it was above the water source it stopped the siphon. In a real setup you would want to keep any siphon from starting.
@@LandtoHouse Actually - having a SIPHON effect in the delivery system - isn't at all a disadvantage .. as?
Where the final delivery - is say partway DOWN from the TOP of a hill that you want to deliver OVER - the hydraulic ram pump is needed to get the initial flow UP to the top of the delivery hill - whereupon the syphon effect of the water flowing down the other side of the delivery pipe hill - will in fact increase the efficiency of the hydra pump as it IS NO LONGER pushing all the water to the top, instead it is ONLY pushing all that water to the actual height of the final outflow point, (since it is in fact - the syphon effect which pulls the water over the top of the hill itself, thereby assisting the hydraulic ram pump to deliver more volume of water, at a lower "final" delivery pressure - to a lower final output level - than it needed to get the initial flow up to & over the top "first" - before the effect of the syphon took over "the top half of the syphon section of pipe across the very top of the hill, as the water fell down the other side - to the outflow point).
The outflow point being MUCH LOWER than the top of the hill, the hydraulic ram pump is thus able to deliver MORE water - faster at a higher pressure - see?
Now - if the truth be told fully - the SYPHON can be used to several advantages - in that the delivery pipe can then be run - over SEVERAL intermediate hills, before the final outflow point is reached, with each hilltop section being "pulled-over" by syphon effects, yet the hydraulic ram pump - ONLY sees the final outflow point as IT's highest delivery point.
Now see the advantages of syphon effects.
ONE hydraulic ram pump - could NEVER raise the water over the intervening hills after the first one, WITHOUT the syphon effect assisting the water flow over the first and subsequent intermediate hilltops.
The pressure output was different because it requires more energy to release the water from the ram pump ram valve into the pond when you have it full of water. It means you get less RAM, because more of the energy from the source has to be used up in getting the water thru the first ram valve. It means you have energy from the source, to capture in the pump, and why the pressure was lower in the filled pond test, some of that energy was used to get it to flow against the head in the filled pond. Yes we know the head in the pond is lower in elevation, but that is the only it works at all, but you still lose pressure because you still have a head working against the ram valve now.
You have that pump under water, and that creates a head pressure on the ram valve forcing it to be required to have a higher head pressure at your source, in order to wind up with the same pressure output as the empty pond test. Water still has weight regardless what elevation it is at, and water flows more freely into air than it will into a pressure head of water.
You can think of it this way too, the elevation of the top of the water level in the filled pond is now your exit elevation on your underwater ram. So in other words, when you put 3 ft height of water in the pond, it essentially means you moved your ram up 3 ft! And when you move your ram up 3 ft, you lose pressure. So, you in essence lose 3 ft height for the input, but don't even get to benefit from having your output 3 ft higher.
A second ram pump would be sweet to return the excess water back to the source
A ram pump can only pump a small fraction of the water used to power it, so there's no way to return much of the water. You can't get something for nothing! :)
As I understand 24 PSI is due to water pressure above the outlet and changed valve weight under water. If you use a spring outlet instead of gravity weight valve which is also become lighter under water due to its volume amount water is replaced makes lighter which can be tuned by spring valve causing PSI improvement.
My observation is that the flowrate and pressure might be a bit lower but the bright side is that it negates the banging noise. Maybe a 1" or 2" submergence of the exhaust valve outlet will work just fine without compromising the overall efficiency.
makes sense the density of water being much greater than air when level is raised and when you fill tank you effectively reduce the elevation head and thus pressure, what would be interesting to know is (and perhaps you have done this elsewhere) what is the minimum elevation head you need to make your pump function and what configurations make that more efficient, for instance if you used a plastic check valve instead of metal I suspect you sacrifice lifespan, but takes less energy to open and close hence more efficient operation but doesn't last as long.
Great video. I have a comment and a question. First; I believe you are getting less water from the submerged pump because the head distance has been reduced by the depth of your pool. Question; I am curious to know if the submerged pump is sending a higher percentage of water through the outlet, due to the restriction on the waste valve. Did you happen to check this?
Who doesnt love ram pumps. Great video. I cant wait until you test the blader tank with an adjustable pressure. :-)
I have grown rather fond of these ram pumps haha. Yes I need to get the money to buy one of those. Probably going to be next year. I have several thousand $ worth of things ahead of the tank. haha
what if you had it in the bottom of a 10ft rain collection tank. Would the pressure created from being under 10ft of water be enough to feed it?
Ok, saw the rig up a little better. Here's a more complete explanation.
First: The pressure gauge measures a differential between the tube pressure and the atmospheric pressure. So when you submerge it, it is reading tubing pressure versus being underwater pressure, which is quite a bit more than the air pressure. Hence, you would see less difference, lower pressure difference, once the pump is underwater, and the reading would immediately read lower.
Second: I'm not sure how the valve works. Does it maintain the static pressure on the output after the piston stroke? Or will it return to zero pressure at the end of the piston down-cycle? Assuming it maintains pressure, you'd have to close the valve and cycle the pump to measure the static pressure potential during the downstroke. By capping the flow off, the pump exerts its full potential force on the water being pumped, and you can take a reading on the setup you have. Here was the problem in the clip... you kept the valve open and piston not moving. So all you read was the pressure due to the water column downstream being elevated.
So not only would you see a decrease due to the "outside" atmosphere being water instead of air, but if you read both readings with the valve open, you would just be comparing a pressure distance due to the pumping location being less elevated in the second case.
One reason to use this set up would be to contain the unused water and gravity pipe it to a lower elevation. I am curious how raising the height of container the pump is in would effect the volume and rise on the pressures end.
I guess I should have binge on your channel before asking questions!
The gauge pressure being lower does not affect the output pressure at the final container. you add the gauge pressure at depth to the water pressure at the depth of the water hammer.
Good stuff Seth! I've often wondered about this concept. I don't want the noise of the flapper valve to attract nosy neighbors and I wonder if the immersion would help reduce wear on the flapper. I really appreciate you doing all of this experimentation. Happy New Year to you and Family!
Happy new year to you too! The sound of the pump does seem to be dampened some under the water. The sound of the drive pipe still has a noticeable thump.
I'd say it's mostly because of the short delivery distance/hight imo! A good reason to have it uderwater would maybe be if your neighbors were close enough and you don't want to annoy anyone, but mostly if the pump is very far away and you may worry a trespasser might here it and steal it... You never know. We've had to confront some teenagers strolling through our woods before!
I have had several people from around the world say that theft is a big issue. A quiet pump would help keep people from finding it. But yes helping keep the neighbors happy is good.
Have you considered diverting some of the flow to a outdoor shower?
You could connect it to copper pipe and use a fire pit to hear the water.
No electricity required ...nearly endless hot water
The weight of the weather on top if the check valve is a factor the more weight the slower the valve can open
The weight of the water is hydrostatic pressure. As long as the input head pressure is above the tank here it should not matter how low the pump goes in the water.
@@LandtoHouse Mark is correct replacing the air above the waste (check) valve with water reduced the pressure differential by the weight of that water, thus the pump is less efficient by that same amount. Or simply put if you tube the top of the waste valve it will fill until it reaches the source height and stop the pump. In your video it starts with the height of water in the bucket verses the drop in height to the waste check valve but changes to the height of water in the bucket verses the drop in height to the black tub. It is still a great video
Its amazing how little some know about physics. Adding height to water in the pond is exactly the same as taking away from the water head drop height from the "drive pipe", , which is exactly like you did putting a stand on the waste valve in a previous video. Of course the pump works under water, as long as a water hammer is produced, and the waste valve can move. Some fluid friction resistance on the waste valve flap will slow down its slamming ability, so being open to the air is best for it and for water hammer pressure creation. But if you raise your bucket the same amount you raised the water in your pond to maintain the same drop, you would get close to the same pound pressure and flow rate, minus some loss in waste valve efficiency due to it not venting to open air.
This is a video I needed to make for a lot of people to see what was going to happen. :)
It mentions that the water source must be from above the water that holds the pump.
Makes it a lot quieter. Worst aspect of Ram pumps is the noise pollution.
Well done!
Yes indeed. underwater does seem to reduce that click sound some.
@@LandtoHouse Could you get a sound meter and measure the sound reduction at 10 meters ? and a hundred meters ?
I'm just thinking long term this could be really important for reducing noise pollution on livestyle blocks and even community water supplies
I'm thinking even 2.5 cm of water (That's an inch for you Americans) above
might reduce pumping efficiency by 15-20% (and that is probably a ratio of the fall), but reduce noise by 50 %
Which might be acceptable if you are already getting plenty of free water
The noise pollution of ram pumps is probably the biggest negative, so any reduction.
@@davestanton3822 A sound meter would be a fun test. If funds allow this summer I can look into that. I imagine they are not too costly. 15% seems like a big number for only a small amount underwater. I should think the efficiency reduction would only be 1 to 5%
@@LandtoHouse I'd bet by now You can probably get an App for your cell phone.
The other thing i see underwater operation doing is taking some of the vibrations out of the pump
which should extend it's life considerably.
Another idea was to add a third non-return valve to the output pipe to eliminate the output pressure head
Could you test this one for us - I'm sure we can in the words of
The Six Million Dollar man - Steve Austin
"I'M SURE ...WE CAN REBUILD HIM
MAKE HIM EVEN BETTER THAN HE WAS
FASTER ....STRONGER.....MORE POWERFUL ! "
There is a good line for your next video pal.
Just practise that a few times and you'll sound really impressive!
Best of Luck
all the way from New Zealand
The Land of "The World's Fastest Indian"
You've gotta see the movie!
I didn't read ALL the comments, but your reduced pressure and flowrates could also be related to the water pressure (weight) on the top side of the valve you need to close. There's water, (and pressure) making it harder for the internal pressure to close that valve.
Yes ! Good observation. That water pressure is called hydrostatic pressure. It does reduce the head pressure activating the pump. Making the pump less effective.
Great Test that tells me it would also be possible to run a Ram Pump from a Watertank Underground. How would the Rampump act if the Inlet and outlet Valves would be farther away from the presurehead and Check valve can you make a test on that? That would be great.
Water is a battery
The surface has negative protons the submersible positive protons or maybe visa versa at varying times of year.Your metal valve will be effecting your psi as it is performing as an earth thus creating a downward drag on its swing gate.
I am not sure that those factors will be strong enough to see a change in psi out though.
Good stuff.... keep it coming👍🏼. I do agree with the comment to raise psi gauge out of water. 💥And also put extension on the waste valve so it’s discharge is also out of water.
You have the weight of the water in the tank/pond that would put pressure on the outside of the gauge diaphragm and that could cause the gauge to read low, just a thought???
The reason why the flow rate is almost the same is that there is a gravitational force acting on the flowing water that is coming from the outlet of the hose which is hanged at the cottage structure. If the hose wasn't bent back downward, i guess you can clearly see it will have different flow rate.
@Land to House: The pressure may have been different because you didn't close the valve on the pressure gauge the 2nd time.
perpetual underwater ram pump whay nooooooot ????? do it bro ... thank you .. good job ..
Simo,is it possible, really? I wish to see.in a gallon ok,but 23 hour it is possible?if yes let me know when already.a hug from Juazeiro Bahia Brasil.
Sadly this is not possible. The waste water of the ram pump is around 80% often times. This means that you will have most of the water at the bottom of the system very quickly.
It is not possible to have a perpetual ram pump unless you do not include the creek water as part of the system.
Power is determined by the drive head, which is the height difference between the surface of the water in the header tank and the surface of the water where it discharges. It normally discharges at the top of the clack valve (drive valve). However when there is water in the tub you have to measure from the water level in the header tank to the water level in the black tub. It looks to me to be about 12" above the drive valve. This has effectively reduced your drive head by 12". If the tub had deeper sides and the water could continue to build up the pump would stop when the water approached the same level as the header tank.
Try this test.
1...Run your output tube to the top of your tower and return it down no more than12 inches below the beam at the top.
2... Exit the water into a 2" pipe (secure it with tie-wire or the like) with no connectors to insure that you are getting no aid in siphon Place your 2" pipe into your catch pail.
This will insure that your pump is doing all the work unaided.
(opinion)
I feel that your test utilized a bit of siphon from the top to catch pail.
My modification will allow the water to free fall for a comparison test.
Hi love the video. Could you put a bell housing over the check valve to stop the water preasure on the check valve?
I don't know if you have watched the ''Ghost Town Living'' CZcams channel. The town's water supply is a well 700 feet underground in an abandoned Silvermine. They have a pump on the system down near the supply. there is a lot more to the issues, but if you have time to check out a couple of the videos tell us what you think. THANKS
Does the size (length and/or diameter) of the pressure column tube make any difference? Example, if the tube were longer and a larger diameter would you get more pressure/output?
Bigger diameter of pipe=more volume, smaller pipe = more pressure?
In this instance since gravity fed, would this apply?
Can you put it inside the boat. You know those old fashioned diving bells? Could you put a ram pump/drive pipe through the ship's walls to let it "leak" into the ram pump? Or in the case of the diving bell the waste valve would go back into the ocean while the output goes to whatever you want to the power for? The output going through the top to surface atmosphere.
I am not sure what you are asking. Do you mean use this inside a boat?
@@LandtoHouse In retrospect my question was terribly worded. I did meant inside the boat. You know those old fashioned diving bells? Could you put a ram pump/drive pipe through the ship's walls. Or in the case of the diving bell the waste valve would go back into the ocean while the output goes to whatever you want to the power for? The output goint through the top to surface atmosphere.
Okay. I understand. Yes you could do that. The problem is you would be opening a hole to the outside. This means that eventually over time the water we begin to fill the inside of the boat. There'd be some very complex pressure changes going on. You would have to have some kind of pump to pull more air into the diving bell atmosphere. If you didn't the air would Escape Under The Bell and let more and more water inside
@@LandtoHouse I was thinking air in the diving bell would push back against the water cause the input and output could be tubes outside or inside the ram pump. The water could only come in through the diving bell from the waste valve but I wonder if the air pressure/water compression in the diving bell would enouph to force it down through the bottom of the bell back into the ocean. an air filled diving bell naturally does this with the surrounding ocean water so maybe the waste valve isn't adding water cause its coming form the surrounding water source (the ocean or pool) and some of that water is actually leaving that system through the output of the rampump. Like you said very complex pressure changes. A fascinating experiment even if fails ;)
These videos are amazing! This is wizardry!!
By submerging the pump, the head is measured between the water level of the source tank (falling) and the waterlevel of the tub (rising).
Thanks for this - I'm just discovering the Ram Pump field. Would there be any benefit to putting 2 or 3 ram pumps in series to create a higher pressure pump? Your submersing the pump - say in a river would also add to the head pressure no....or does the added water pressure from doing so just put a back-pressure on the whole system? If one were to trench small deep pit beside the river/creek to drop the pump in - would that be beneficial to creating higher head pressure?
Your plastic tub also is a resonator and even if the pump was isolated the tub is like a drum head. If the tub were in the ground, or the pump in a pond/cistern it would be even more muffled. I am interested in the idea of collecting the water from the initial check valve in some sort of cistern from which one could draw for other uses - gardens, fields etc. good video and helpful info! Your Buddy at wranglestar sent me to you!
That's a good point. The plastic pond is no good for the sound. Underwater in a creek or in this pond underground would be better. ... the waste water can be used to fill another tank as long as it's down hill from the pump. Thanks for watching!
I think the clacking noise would be more muffled if you added a pipe over it once started. A couple of feet at most then you use a coat hangar to start it again.
As long as the waste water can escape at the level of the pump it would work. If you add a pipe directly to the valve it reduces the head pressure.
If you have deep pond or river but surrounding land is above the pond or river. Can make input pipe end near the surface of the water and Ram pump 4-5 feel below the surface of the water. So it can make water pumping higher ground of pond or river. ( I think )
Yes,it will.
Thanks for your great videos. I'm just wondering if the pressure tank has to be long and tubular. Maybe you could test with a more low-profile, but wider container. Same, or even mode air volume, but more compact. Also, is there an option of purchasing a few spares, e.g. valves, with your kit? While one can build their own unit, I like the way yours is standardized. Thanks.
When I start working on my wetland pond and bog filter, I want to try to use a ram pump in the pond, flowing from the bog filter overflow, to the ram pump, and back into the bottom of the bog filter creating a small waterfall feature, and filtering the water. I'm wondering if the ram pump is deeper, say 4 feet underwater, how much more that might effect the flow.
I'm from Malaysia. Please do the test, that it's 100%inside the pond/water, include the cylinder. And your result a bit different cause by your source water getting less. Thus, gravity weights of water will getting less. Anyway, this is great video.
Thanks for watching. The source water needs to come from outside the pond holding the pump. Later this year I hope to have a fully submerged pump.
Hi, my name is Lee. I am a 65 year old lady from South Africa and I am building a 20mm pipe small ram pump which I want to use for my stack hydroponic garden. That means I need to put the wast water back into the feeding bucket.
Must the feeding pipe be so long or can the metre fall be almost diaganal?
If so, can one connect a metre cylinder which is open at the top so that the wast water can push up in it, instead of running away with a pipe from it to the bucket, thus depositing the water back into the system?
Good job and thanks for sharing with us.
Could you use a ram pump to supply a waterfall in a pond?
I think you still had a siphon effect. It probably doesn't matter form a comparison perspective because they were both the same, but the water would have to be free falling from the top of the shed (not in the hose) to get rid of it, no? As the 'pond' filled up on the second test there would be more outside pressure affecting the pump so would probably change its efficiency a little. I think you also need to lift the pressure meter out of the water so the pressure is the same on both tests (there would be more ambient pressure underwater).
I would suspect the pressure difference to be related to the "obstruction" of the water o top of the flapper check valve. Or the weigt of that water working against the out flow.
I think in the first pressure test, the open end of the pipe was at the top of the wooden structure. With the second pressure test it was lower, ending in the bucket. That is why the pressure is lower.
I'm kind of a dummy but I could tell the limo would work almost immediately. The closed delivery makes it work regardless of water submersion.
Will a ram pump provide enough pressure to force water through a sprinkler or some other way of diffusing the water coming out the end? Also what is stopping you from dropping the water back down into the bucket at the beginning, where it spins a wheel on an alternator along the way, effectively creating endless energy as long as water is in the system? I know there is still the issue of the waste water coming from the top of the pump. My theory is if it can fill that tub without sucking the water back in, then that means your waste valve also has pressure behind it. One could theorize that you could run a pipe straight up from the waste valve, and have it ramp back down to your supply water creating a 99% efficient loop.
i am intreagued to know if there can be some kind of set up to have the water recirculating into the pomd for a water feature !?
That's what I intend to do with this, with a duplicate set of ram pumps to increase the flow of a small waterfall, yet capturing all of the water for no waste except for evaporation. That's the hope at least.
I submit the diminished psi reading during underwater mode is caused by the water pressure against the 1st check valve.
Is there any way to collect the waste water without having a negative impact on the operation of the pump?
Could you possibly make the unit quieter by using a soft rubber seal/O-ring, or a completely different style of valve ??? Noticed kink in outlet pipe near the pressure gauge. This would probably reduce the output flow and pressure. When submerged, you have reduced the supply head height by approx 1 foot or more, therefore the input and output pressure will be reduced by something approaching 25% - 30% . Under water, the lift height (approx 4 feet),is also reduced by the same amount (approx 1 foot), thereby helping to explain the reduction in pressure . This would not be so obvious if a much higher lift height was used. I have wondered about these types of pumps since I first saw one in Tasmania as a child in a farmer's paddock in 1968, feeding up approx 15 metres to a tank on a tower with no power being supplied. Thank you very much for your videos; Very impressive.
in 10.33 mins of your video. The pressure difference is caused because of the pressure you exposed the check valve. Under the water the pressure on the check valve from the surrounding is higher compared to the atmospheric pressure due to the air, hence that's why it gives different pressure in such different conditions.
loved the way you tested it...👍
assuming you let some water out of the pipes, you could do a turbine rotation another pump, while letting the first turbine jet the seconds reservoir to be pumped out, direct pump determination, evaluation of generated, used and possible power, mgh direct conversion E=m1gh1=m2gh2
Seems the hose will still siphon even though put the container up higher. Any time theres a flow with a drop down through a hose like that it will have a pull.
Cool stuff! I'm wondering - how can you capture / use the "waste water" so its not....wasted? in a hot dry climate, every drop of water is sacred. wasting water from the pumps waste valve is not an option! can a bucket or "cup" on top of the waste valve be fitted? ie: would the waste water be able to be re-fill back into the pump system since it is positioned before the actual pressure tank? I guess like - water in - waste valve pushes water into "cup" when open- waste water cup refills waste valve when closed - re-entering it back into the system? make sense?
I love Ram because they are cool🎉🎉🎉
If its underwater it would also prevent freezing in the winter wouldnt it? Or does that even matter because of the water always moving?