5 Reasons You Need to Trail Brake in Sim Racing
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- If you're not trail braking when sim racing, you won't be lapping at your ultimate pace.
Scott Mansell, racing coach from Driver61 and the new Driver61 Sim Racing channel explains what trail braking is, why it's important and how you can use it to get faster on your racing simulator.
The Driver61 Sim Racing channel is here to help you learn driving techniques, win races and ultimately enable sim drivers to fulfill their potential.
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I just recently discovered a huge mistake I had been doing since day one. I don't know how I missed it, but I would be on the gas going into the corner, meaning I was braking too early and being too eager to get out of the corner. Trail braking into the corner and getting a better corner exit improved my lap time at Monza by 1.5 seconds.
I can't mind that while driving even if I know it should be done to get better results. I just feel like I'd be way more slower if I do it and couldn't manage to get over it. (Started to sim racing 2-3 weeks ago.)
Same for me.. how did you manage to practice trail breaking? I feel like I'm.either going in way too fast or way too slow
This is great, turn 1 at Suzuka would be a great example for this as well
Oh wow the 2nd video is mine! It was a scrappy lap in certain parts.
The GT-R GT3 to me struggled with turn in, a lot. This only emphasised the importance of trail breaking
Hey atleast you had the second video and not the first, great job
Ben Freedman Racing Either way it would have been a win in reality, finding a flaw in your own style would lead to improvement :)
Did he not contact you before including your content in his video?
@@operator1778 There was a page submission which you could submit and asked for your permission, I just did not expect my video to pop up at all!
operator177 are you a cop?
Could I encourage to think the term, “loading” and “unloading”? This way we consider how we are loading or unloading the front tires. “Load” helps me to remember that the pedals shift the weight load around the corners (or ends) of the chassis.
I found that trail braking extra to induce a bit of oversteer right into an acute apex (such as T1 at Monza) can help. Focusing on this will also tell you if you're braking too early, because you'll find yourself lifting off the brakes before turning in.
Interesting topic, but please:
1) compare wrong / right techniques using same corner
2) use telemetry or vivid tools like LiveForSpeed's forces, works much better than words
I think we got the point anyway
You don't need to hear what you already know, but you're a pro's pro Scott, and you've helped me tremendously just by your ability to explain these concepts simply and in a logical manner. Thank you!
Thank you! This is the best explanation of why you trail brake I’ve seen so far.
Watching this video made me realize how I massively underestimated the importance of trail braking, despite me thinking I perfected it. Thank you for this fantastic videos!
This man is very good at explaining his point to make it easy to understand. I keep learning things from this channel.
Thank you Scott, every bit of knowledge helps.
You're ability to explain breaking is top notch, ty
This will change everything for me, great video!!!👍👍
Thanks mate, such clearly explained video, keep it up!
These videos are fantastic.
thankyou now I have lots to improve upon and more fun to be had.
You are really good! Thank you for sharing this!
Nice Scott! thank you!
I'm new to sim racing and this was incredible information. Going to take to the track now to practice!
I love you man. Thanks for the great video and your way to explain it.
This is gold!:)
Thanks for the education. I'm a beginner on road courses on the sim and am having trouble getting the car to handle.
Thanks for your vids.
amazing!!! thanks mate!
Amazing video. Thanks a lot
Thanks I'll give this one a try.
Great info, thanks.
Very informative. I'm looking for ways to shave about 2 seconds off of my general lap times and will practice this for sure!
Wow! Thank you so much for the technique lesson! I never thought about this!
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons
Hi Scott, love the videos. I am new to sim racing and really getting into it. I have just started using paddle shifters and i found it makes car control much easier, but I am struggling to downshift effectively, I would love to see a video on how to do that effectively in terms of timing.
Es genial ver como y donde mejorar esta técnica, y porque! Esto es lo mas importante de todo, aprendí muchisimo sobre Balance y control con sus videos, Muchas gracias por su dedicación!!! Me ayuda a mejorar cada día pensando en lo que hago y porque.
The wavy brick wall was freaking me out, until I saw the heater back there lol
holy moly this corner in Silverstone is always my issue with understeer lol thanks I'll try it out
Thanks! Im kind of new to gt racing, i've raced plenty of open wheel cars in sims and didnt know how to brake when in a gt car.
Would lowkey be really cool to have my driving judged by someone like you but I’d probably just get roasted. 😂 I’ve hit a point where my times have plateaued or just gotten slower. Looking forward to more vids and hopefully I can start improving my times again.
Brands hatch GP forced me to learn trail breaking, great track to practice in because weight management is key for a quick lap there, especially in GT cars.
Tried your techniques. Simply put for me is feeling the balance through the corner.
Practice this technique now. The control of my car is significantly better after one session of practice. The car I drive on sim is a lot better balanced.
This is the main technique to learn. I'm having a hard time doing this as you can see in my video in Mount Panorama, I'm turning 2: 24: 000, the best time I got was 2: 22: 500 from Porsche GT4
So I watched your series this morning and really enjoyed them, good info as a beginner to hear. I’m attempting to apply the tactics, but a question came up, so here I am. Lol question is: do you use both feet when trail breaking or is there another method? Thank you!
Fantastic.
Nicely shown. It also depends how the car is setup as far as brake bias goes too and as fuel level drops all ads to the challenge and fun :)
I will rewatch this untill i bloody get it :)))).
this REALY helps the most at wtcc cars....
Thank you kind sir, been sim racing for years and I'm still doing this stuff wrong it seems :P
Using a front soft spring helps a lot. It can be obvious but some people could have problems about it
Nice video..
Great video, very informative. Give me something to work on with the faster cars in iRacing
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons. They do lessons of iracing
Good topic. Trail braking works in real life also. lol. there is a fine line here because the front tires only have so much capacity to grip - which was referenced - and if the turning is beyond the limit of grip it will still understeer. The point is that trail braking puts more downforce on the front wheels to improve the turn, even though some of the extra downforce is consumed with the braking maneuver itself.
Same as most thing in Sim racing
great, i just discovered i have always been trail braking without even knowing, it just has always been natural doing so for me
One of the easiest tips that I give people is that you should be smoothly be letting of the breaks as you feed the car steering input. And there should be no “coasting”. In the examples of what not to do in this video there’s a lot of coasting before the apex. This means the driver is breaking to early. You should be just finishing your breaking before the apex and then smoothly transition into the gas (at or just before apex). There should be almost no time spent coasting.
The other great tip that helps people once they get the feel of it is....
“Slow in, fast out”
Do you think a load cell brake pedal is faster then the potentiometers pedal? Awesome Videos!
Dude I’m in need of ur tuition 😉❤️
Great video! I watched this one and the driver university one, and this one is more actionable IMO.
I've got a question though, I often lock up the wheels when breaking on a straight line, is there a guideline as to how much breaking pressure to use?
Force is directly related to angle. Everybody has their own driving style so coming up with an Iron clad "must do" list I would imagine would be very hard if not impossible.
I trailbrake everyday on my way to work. Balancing a real car, and feel the front ist just under the right load for nice grip into the corner is pure fun.
Have fun replacing the brakes earlier lol
@@CoryGamesHD Thx. Had to replace one time because i pushed too much on the autobahn, and had too much slow cars with 120km/h pulling out in front of me. So the brakes overheated, went to purple color the next day... but fun is fun ;)
I also often drive with much "lift&coast" to save fuel and brakes btw.
Joachim Deschner I’m jk. I’ve ruined crappy part store rotors a few times.
@@CoryGamesHD sure isn't that the other half of the fun? 🤣
In my experience, with the car set up the way I like it, I actually am able to get the car to rotate more by popping off the brakes and playing with my EOB, then holding the car on the edge of a slide with throttle rather than carrying brake pressure deeper into the corner. Generally I've found that I am able to carry more speed through most corners when I condense my braking to be as efficient as possible and then trail maybe only 10-20% pressure through only the very beginning phase of turn-in and almost always pop-off before apex. The only times I really trail deep seem to be downhill/off-camber corners or when the front tires are starting to fall off. It seems to me that if the car is already set up well for high turn-in speed, it's preferable to trail as little as possible while maintaining the right amount of rotation as you can condense the brake zone and maintain a higher minimum corner speed this way.
Additionally, doesn't the maximum lateral cornering force come during the coast/maintence phase of a turn anyways? Or am I missing something here? In my experience trail braking has served as more of a circumstantial tool rather than a technique I use through every corner at every track. I tend to focus more on my EOB and shape of the brake trace rather than try to hang it deep into the corner.
Been driving F4 cars for only about a year now so I am by no means an expert. If someone could show me where I'm wrong I would appreciate it. Thanks.
My friend who raced motocross is used to full throttle and then full braking. His driving style works poorly for road racing. I wondered what the physics were when you go extreme to extreme.
So Driver61 store will be adding sim racing wheels, rigs, PCs, and other accessories for sale right?
I would find my driving/setups really useful to be judged to help me understand what i am doing wrong and what i need to do to improve
Nice video! Some say that trailbraking should mostly be used in slow corners to get better rotation (a classic is turn 10 in Bahrain). I guess the brake pedal pressure is easier to modulate in a slow corner and the weight transfer would be less than in a medium speed corner. Which is right, both maybe?
The weight transfer being smaller at higher speed is good point but it's not really why we use brakes on entry. Trailbraking is just a mean to go through correct line at correct speed (speed is very important part of a line). At higher speeds the car naturally slows down much more so there is less need for brakes. Plus the correct line tends slightly toward more circular path when lots of downforce is involved which reduces the slowdown needed on entry. Both effects combined mean braking technique is less important at high speeds.
On top of my head T5 (left) is an example of medium speed trailbraking corner, also spa is full of medium to high speed trailbraking corners. (T7, T10, T11, T12, T13 T15)
Trailbraking can be used in any corner. I regularly use it in 160+ km/h or 100+ mph corners, but the trailbraking is around 5% pressure, or just enough to get the pads to touch the rotors. In any case, if you're able to touch the throttle pedal before the midpoint of the corner (or corner sequence), you over-braked and entered the corner too slowly.
@@heelandtoe33 Thanks for the response. That makes sense, lighter touch in higher speeds. I actually had som issues with over-braking in turn 1 in Mexico. I found that I needed to apply some throttle going into the corner, and that's just regular braking in a straight line. I then used trailbraking instead, and found that the front of the car really gripped up and pointed the car into the turn better, it made the turn-in much more efficient.
Great video mate.
I not on iracing, but race on grand Tourismo.
Any chance you could do a video on brake bias?
Now i know why i love fr car and hate mr car at ACC now😂 since the weight of the engine actually helps me do a little bit more weight transfer to the front of the car while conering
It annoys me all the time while driving the ferrari 488 compare to other that drove it so quickly
Hi, I've just started using a wheel (G29). I'd describe myself as someone who does it for fun with friends and we play GT Sport.
I'm your regular everyday driver but i'd like to know if possible how important is it to learn to drive these games using the left foot for breaking and the right foot for throttle. My natural instinct is to use my right foot only and I can see on some of these examples that it's obvious the users are using both feet and this just isn't coming naturally to me.
Thanks and great videos :)
Hello Iain, I also have a G29, but mainly play Assetto Corsa (normal and Competizione) and some F1 games. Simply put, the faster the car, the greater the difference in lap times will be. If you use your left foot for braking, you're able to jump on the brakes as soon as you release the throttle, as well as the opposite. In the beginning you probably will be somewhat slower, given your left foot is not as precise as the right food in braking, however, as you progress you'll notice the gains, specially, as I said, in the faster cars.
@@DanielMiquelluti Thank you Daniel, that's great.
I'll give it a go.
@@iainc1965 yeah you gotta be left foot braking always. not fast enough with your right foot. seems weird at first but no one ever has a problem at go karting 🤣
It took me a ten hour session to get this down. I too had been driving all my life with the single foot in the real world which is much safer. The challenge is that the single foot method is entirely hooked up to your survival mechanism in keeping you alive daily so the body doesnt give this up easily.
You probably already have by now...but I suggest starting out on an Oval for your first 20 minutes or so just to get the feel. Then 180 on yourself and choose a very fast car along with a track that requires a great amount of turning. Just stay committed to it and the brain will adapt pretty quickly.
At the end of the session I was already delving in to micro applications that require touch. I'm over 40 too so I'd been using the one foot system for a while. This is the first sim style racer that I've ever played. After 3 weeks of racing on the Cup events..I've managed 2 fifth place finishes, 5 3rd place finishes and a victory.
are you supposed to alternate which foot you brake with depending on whether you're shifting or not? Or does no one use a clutch these days?
Why do I feel like he makes these videos at 2 am everytime
Cos he looks like he's in his pyjamas
Is it applicable to use trail braking on any type of car and any type of corner or is it a matter of trial and error to see which ones work? I drive on iRacing and enjoy open wheel racing mostly but really struggle to keep the car on the road without being 2-3 seconds off the pace.
Second video footage got me puzzled a bit, if you watch the inputs, the driver is feeding throttle while he is still braking, this is very confusing, is it a correct technique and wouldnt this break the engine in the real life, where you are already on the accelerator while still applying brakes ?
Forgive me if these are silly questions. 1: Instead of trail braking into a corner could we instead make adjustments to shocks and springs to slow the rebound of the front on corner entry? 2: Is it just me or does the handling and racing line used at most tracks change drastically from a pre-race practice to an actual practice within the event on iracing?
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons. They can answer you
ahhh, another trick to be intergrated to my driving technique
I have been thinking about left foot braking for a long time, as its something that I do not do. I found your comments about just jumping off the brake pedal really interesting as only using one foot unless the timing of transition is perfect I am effectively unbalancing the car. Is there a technique for only right foot braking\driving or am I really missing out on extra gains by not using left foot braking?
If you want to be remotely competitive, there is no alternative to left foot braking! The weight transition is so much smoother...
Stefan G. I was pretty much thinking this tbh. I tried left foot braking in my real car, although everything in my head said be light the braking turned into an emergency stop.
So what better way than a sim to reprogram my brain and foot 🦶. I’m going to do a future video on this, as I recently done a race in ACC at Zandvoort, my best lap time was a 140.404 and I was unable to get into the 139’s . If I keep practicing, I’m going to return to see how much more time is on the table
@@HlspwnsWorld If you have pedals where you can change the brake resistance, make it softer and if possible with a longer travel too to begin with. Will not be as realistic, but it will make the transition easier.
very clear
BUT
can be smoother.
rehearse once
and do again, it will be perfect. You are top 3 youtuber for sim racing tutorial. Keep at it.
Do I have to trailbreak into EVERY corner or are there conrners that need another technique ? thx for your great videos.
Depends on the corner. For sharper corners generally trail brake, for longer corners you may want to coast vs. braking. It all depends on the track and the car. Just use trail braking whenever you have full braking as a rule of thumb. Trail braking is usually braking late into the corner and staying on the brakes a bit longer (though not at maximum throughout the entire corner). This makes a serious difference in many different aspects of racing from taking defensive lines and having good set ups for double apexes etc.
Any tips on which track/turn combo it is best to practice on? Where you would see a bigger difference etc.
ShinuLT I think Barcelona in iRacing is quite a good place to practice it. Has lots of corners with fast entries where you need to rotate the car
spa, nurburgring, okayama, suzuka, tsukuba, silverstone, laguna seca, and many more if you have a real car practice there in low speed it gets easier to trail brake.
If you're in iracing, practice trail braking on ovals. You'll get way more practice (because you're constantly in turns) and you can instantly see the difference from one lap to the next when you trail brake vs. when you don't.
In Monza u have the hard braking into turn 1 and turn 4(the 2 chicanes). Then you have Lesmo 1 - A very soft braking, and soft releasing the brakes can make half a second, because you start breaking in the turn, not before the turn. Also into Ascari and Parabolica you can gain much time.
Turn 1 Interlagos is a good one. It's high speed heading into it so hard breaking, and it's very challenging to get the turn right since it drops down the hill. It magnifies any little mistake, especially considering you have to get that turn right to setup for turn 2 - it's so important for a good time.
Why am I watching this for when I go home from work. ._.
Is he on the throttle while braking just for heel toeing when downshifting?
Does with stand for historic cars that only use mechanical grip? Stuff like the Lotus 49 etc.
Yes, absolutely; the theory applies for any car. It needs to be set up properly to be able to trailbrake into the corners. Too often, people used to straight-line braking will set up the car for a suboptimal driving technique, and when they try to go faster, that poor set-up holds them back. Sometimes it takes time to undo both the bad habits and the bad set-up.
I want to crush all that I come across. Nothing gives me more joy from racing than seeing the faces of those that I've denied victory. My joy is keeping you off of my space on the top step. Racing is life, all that comes before, and all that comes after is meaningless!
How do you trail brake with a older racing wheel? for now I have a Driving force GT from 2007 it used to work great with PS3 but the pedals feel stale they feel like its on or off I try my best with it but Its hard to get it right on every corner
I think you have got your answer. I have a thrustmaster t300 gt and i think that the feel is not good enough to trail break properly. You are probably going to need to invest properly
Do you need a slightly different brake balance setup of Trail braking ??
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons
I've mistakenly been setting up a car with oversteer to compensate for this problem. Is it best to just go back to baseline and practice this skill, or keep going with the setup I am comfortable with atm?
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons
Why not just say, brake in a straight line and ease off as you corner until you reach the apex?
Something that always bugs me about racing sims... is this the view most people see out of a car? I've never been in a car where I couldn't see the top of the hood from the driver's seat. In every cockpit view on a game, I really miss having the reference of the hood to know where the nose of my car is.
Just carefull not to treat every car the same. Front heavy vehicles like front engined Audis and most Subarus are vehicle that dive better into corners either neutral or even on gas, if the awd system copes with it. Those vehicles will "wash out" the front if you trail brake and understeer like crazy. After only a couple of laps you will have overheated the front tires and they willbe shot..
Phht, I'm still learning how to bleep the throttle without wrecking lol
I drive the dtm 2020 cars a lot on raceroom and everytime i try to trailbrake that car even just little i spin why does this happen?
Too much pressure on the brakes. Release some
Tailbreaking in the Skippy is pretty scary going into a fast corner... imo that 50% of all lap 1 / turn 1 incidents
I agree! Especially at Phoenix or Suzuka
This is why i dont do it lol skippy is too loose now that i have a DD wheel maybe i can learn to catch the slides better.
Does this technique works with formula type car? They have much less suspension travel
Belisle Mathieu 100% bro.
@simracingesports on Instagram they are doing a promotion on discounted simracing lessons
Does this count for F1 cars aswell? Or only GTs and Closed wheelers
BananaTrolzz It applies, but the car is super twitchy and trail braking is much harder to control. If you’re already super consistent and comfortable with its handling, you can try it out. But be aware that it increases your chances of spinning out quite significantly. In the end, it all comes down to practice.
(Note: I only do it in corners where I experience a lot of understeeer AND if I’m driving aggressively to shave off a couple of tenths per lap. Usually, I prefer to be safe and consistent, but a bit slower)
I play GT Sport (ps4) and always looking to improve. I’m curious if the same game physics work there or is it just I racing? I would try it out myself but I’m out of town for a few days.
Thanks
Any half-decent game or sim will have good enough physics to allow you to trailbrake and see a benefit.
How do I join you school
Everyone tells me I should do all my braking before the turn in point. Gonna this
and when you are learning that is going to be great advice and improve your lap times considerably. Trail braking is definitely finessing of braking skill (also your mileage may vary per sim)
@@paulmdevenney My main sim is Pcars 2. I've been practicing trail braking. Managed to shave 1.2secs per lap on average
So is there always going to be a moment in the corner where you are on the brakes and the gas at the same time?
It's possible, but usually that would imply that there might be a problem with your set-up. Ideally, you would trail off the brake and coast for a small portion before picking up the throttle at the apex (or sometimes midpoint/inflection point).
@@heelandtoe33 Thanks for the response. So I guess the better you get at trail braking the shorter that coast portion will be, correct?
@@CSTBFO_jad Theoretically yes, although with engine braking, you are still effectively trailbraking even when you are just coasting. The key is to transition from a mix of braking and engine braking to solely engine braking.
@@heelandtoe33 Oh ok good to know thanks alot. Much appreciated.
Why “in sim racing” in the title? Does this not apply on a real race track?
Is this relevant in Gran Turismo Sport?
Yes. Real life, too!
until now i believe that trail braike was jump off the brake and turn fast
Hello, was wondering is this with or without ABS?
This is not a law for all sims, but a particularity of iRacing, which is a trail braking simulator hahaha. If you aren't doing the trail braking, forget about everything, turn around and go back to the point 0.
Clipping Point, is the Japanese term, for the sweet and oh so important moment where you switch between trail braking and accelerating post apex.
Or in Japanese perhaps, Clipeeng a poyntsaaah....so.........;)
does trail braking apply to karting as well? curious
I've just started i racing was doing really well in my 2nd race but somone drove straight up my ass into a corner has happened twice now highly disappointing
Welcome to Rookie class. Take it easy and don't concentrate on winning the race, but just get throgh it with out any (or as few) incidents points as possible. Check this video out. czcams.com/video/uqsKm8irA7U/video.html
Advice like this only works in sim racing games that utilize accurate physics. Anyone know which sims have the best physics.
Why "Sim Racing"? This doesn't work in real life?
It works in Real life and to drive fast you need to trail brake
It does work also. The difference being that in real life the pedal feel is usually much better than with sim pedals which make it easier