Are These Albums Great Because Youâre Bored with the Classics? (w/ Martin Popoff)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 16. 03. 2023
- Join Pete Pardo & Martin Popoff for a discussion of albums that fans seem to rank higher as time goes on.
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King Crimson is one of those bands you can always go back and explore more - musical integrity and willingness to constantly try new and different things helps create an interesting discography that can defy time.
I still go back to COTCK and Red.
I think this topic also boils down to who's talking about it. If an "older" fan who didn't originally like the Elder is now raving about it than perhaps it's because they're bored with the classics, but if a "younger" fan is raving it might be because they don't have the same expectations today that a fan had when it was originally released. Some styles or genres age better. They may have been out of place upon their release but more in line with today's sensibility.
Bingo
đŻ
This right here is 100% on-point: "If an "older" fan who didn't originally like the Elder is now raving about it than perhaps it's because they're bored with the classics, but if a "younger" fan is raving it might be because they don't have the same expectations today that a fan had when it was originally released."
Your points are well articulated, but I happen to entertain another possibility - that a less sophisticated, easily "influenced" younger generation of Kiss fans are being influenced by an equally less sophisticated - yet highly vocal - older segment of fans that actually think the Elder is a worthwhile Kiss album. It isn't - it's still an incredibly corny attempt by a musically inept band to punch much higher than their weight in terms of artistic sensibility.
I always thought that the Elder was two songs short of a classic.
This relates to what I've said for the last twenty years or so: eventually every band over twenty years old will have a documentary made about them with people talking about how influential and, at the same time, underappreciated they were at the time. And more than likely, all will feature Dave Grohl and Flea at some point
(Insert band name) was a huge influence on Nirvana and I'm proud to initiate them into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. -- D. Grohl
I've loved all those Purple albums Who Do We Think We Are,Stormbringer and Come Taste The Band from day 1
Sometimes when you got back to an album after a long time you hear it with fresh ears & as a result have a new appreciation. Your taste may evolve over time as well & that becomes a factor too
absolutely.
Peoples tastes definitely do alter slightly with age I agree.
PS. Glad Martin and Pete still do their show every Friday. I wish there would be more but least this was one of the shows that didn't take a hit. This and Hudson are my favs. I'm growing towards UK Connection as well. Thanks for all you do Pete.
UK Connection is a blast.
HVS and this and Monster's Den are all Must See TV! đ€
Oh I forgot you nice gentleman should do a show about artists who want to do a solo album but it becomes part of the bandâs discography. Keep doing such a great job! Thanks for all the inspiration!!!
One other theory is that of âThe Great Silent Majorityâ. If Dark Side of the Moon is my favorite Pink Floyd album, I feel no need to comment on Facebook or CZcams about that opinion because millions of people have the same opinion. But if The Final Cut is one of my favorite Pink Floyd albums (which it is), I know that I am holding a relatively unpopular opinion, therefore I feel the need to proclaim that opinion loudly every chance I get.
One thing you got to consider is that your musical taste does alter somewhat as you get older and the nostalgia helps you enjoy the lesser know albums.
Pink Floyd's Obscured By Clouds is an album I have re-discovered. Not as good as the classic Floyd albums but it's more interesting than I initially thought.
I've likened Obscured to Prince's Controversy: the somewhat forgotten album between the big one and the huge one.
@@mick5137 Yeah, It has a late 60s feel. I wonder if it was material they had left over from previous sessions.
I love Pink Floyd, but I could never get into "Obscured by Clouds"
but I'm glad u enjoy it.
I'd recommend u check out
"A Momentary Lapse of Reason", they remixed it in 2019, replaced the drums with Nick Mason & revisited some Richard Wright keyboard elements.
It definitely elevates the album, it's available on Blu Ray 5.1 or Spotify.
It's not remastered, it's a remix.
Great album, that requires patience.
I agree, an overlooked gem and an album I have grown to appreciate and love more and more as time had passed. Am I sick of the big albums, not a chance. But I have def grown to appreciate much more of their early work especially. Iâd prob also put AHM in the same bucket. While pretty much disowned by Waters and Gilmour, I would be lying if is said I didnât love it. Side one has some gems like Fat Old Sun and IF and of course the suite is classic! Both are overlooked albums that have grown tremendously in my admiration and appreciation on both counts as time has passed.
@@robm9999 Obscured sounds like it was recorded much earlier than its release date. Gilmour's guitar distortion sound distinctly 60s.
The one that comes to mind is Flick of the switch. It.s become more of a great album then when i was younger. Great!
I feel that way about Iron Maiden's Fear of the Dark and No Prayer for the Dying, plus I like them more than the last 2 new Iron Maiden albums.
Headless Cross was always my favourite black sabbath album. As a youngster at the time it came out I really liked that, I was getting to know all that stuff back then so it left a definitive mark. The Ozzy era seemed a bit like old people's music to me at the time. I enjoyed Iron Man, Paranoid and little else. Only later in life as I grew up I started to embrace all of their discography.
There is a psychological aspect to this ... if there is a popular artist with multi-platinum selling records that everyone knows about, it feels special to have a lesser-known or red-headed stepchild to adore. The whole KISS - The Elder thing is exactly this ... "I don't want to be the 393,283,231st fan to have Destroyer as my favorite KISS record ... how about something different?" It's emotionally gratifying to have "your" album. I'm as guilty of this as anyone ... just not with The Elder LOL.
Great point, we want to have our "own" special albums and songs! We are contrarian by nature!
Mirage Fleetwood Mac. I bought this when it came out and it was just okay. Put it away for years. Dug it out a couple of years ago and realised itâs one of their best. I had totally forgotten how good Christineâs song were, to me, some of her best. Such an underrated album.
I think 'Tusk' should get more love too.
@@manuelper Agree but Mirage gets even less. Everyone remembers Gypsy but Stevies other two songs are hidden gems. I always found Lindsey hit and miss due to some of his more whacky songs but his on Mirage are all great. Christineâs are all just beatiful
@@stephenbrown4211 Mirage was never a bad album though. Now Tusk on the other hand is a bad album and it's still a bad album and will forever be a bad album. It is like eating a pound of lard and telling yourself it is Vanilla Ice Cream.
@@Splashadian Tusk is messy and bloated. It didn't need to be a double. If they condensed it down to a single with the best tracks it would've been decent. But never up to the level of Rumours.
Love it to! RIP Christine McVie! Superb singer and keyboardist, she had some gems on Mirage. Essential album for Mac fans and music fans in general!
Great episode. Yes - "Drama" and Judas Priest - "Point Of Entry" are both great examples of this.
Point of Entry is still as bad as it was the day I first heard it. Time has not suddenly made bad songs good.
Point of entry is bad overall. Only good songs are heading out to the Highway and desert plains
For some reason, with Dio classics, I tend to prefer the follow-up to the classic everyone gushes over. Yes. I prefer Long Live to Rising. I prefer Mob to Heaven. And, I prefer Last in Line to Holy Diver. Pretty even though - all six albums are great, but I feel all these three âfollow-upsâ were able to improve from the first one and were just a tad heavier, a bit more concise and tasty than their predecessors. But all six albums are absolutely brilliant, so it is not a huge change either wayđđđ»
You need tell every one about your favourite albums your favourite band sucks so do your albums your favourite band sucks is the best music related channel ever put to video and peoples listening ears
I tend to lean toward the idea that we just never took the time to stop and smell the roses on a lot of these albums, past or present, and for whatever reasons overlooked or wrote them off unfairly to begin with. Comparison is the death of greatness sometimes...
Iâve always liked both Lizard and Islands and Steve Wilsonâs remix and remaster of Lizard has made it sound even better. Islands one of my favorite albums by them.
The two KISS books mentioned in the open are both excellent! "Odyssey" was written by Julian Gill & Tim McPhate, while "Gene, Ace, Peter & Paul" is by "solo" Julian Gill. Julian also authored "Danger Zone", which covers the Crazy Nights album. I love KISS minutiae and Julian doesn't skimp on the details!
Regarding RUSH's 1980s / keyboardy period ("Power Windows" through "Roll the Bones"), I absolutely flipped over those albums to the point where that's all that I bought from them. I got the RUSH "Chronicles" 2-CD set first in 1996 I think, and gravitated right toward "The Big Money" and "Time Stand Still". I think I liked how emotional they were and how the keyboards helped express that. So it's nice to see those albums getting a little more appreciation now.
I'm surprised that "Another Perfect Day" was not mentioned. It was not accepted but I see a lot more appreciation in the last few years, (I've always loved it).
Great example even Lemmy said it at later concerts.
Oh yea, the 40th & 30th anniversary rundowns highlighted both lost classics! That and Bastards from '93.
Amen!
I haven't met a single Motorhead fan who doesn't also like Thin Lizzy, that's a highly appreciated record
Didn't like Another Perfect Day when it came out, I need to get the album now, as I've listened to it a few times recently and really took to it - creative and still rocks like hell! Brian Robertson a very unique, tasty guitarist.
Led Zep is a very good example: I'm sick and tired of I -> IV, and I think the later part of their catalogue is now my fav.
Cheers.
yeh if i listen to zep these days its usually one of the last 4 too.
They became better songwriters with time. No doubt about it.
You like the gay led Zeppelin
Zep 1 through 4 was their blues inspired stuff.... I prefer that more.
@@toddthornton2116 there is no gay Led Zeppelin music....whatever the hell that means. God, I pray you're a youngster.
As a long time Accept fan, I thought Balls to the wall, was a huge let down after Breaker & the great Restless & Wild album, I mean, after songs like Fast As a Shark, Restless and Wild, etc the next album would be heavy as f*ck, but I learned to love it over time.
Thx guys / you both always crush it on Friday mornings here in NJ. đđŻ
I didn't have much money till I was old enough to work, so many of the first albums I bought (often after getting the hits packages) were these albums. They were cheaper for a reason. Technical Ecstasy and Who Do We Think We Are are both examples of that. I love Technical Ecstasy. I place it above a couple of the first six. Why? Nostalgia and boredom. I don't do the same with the Deep Purple record, but I still love Mary Long and Super Trooper. I have always loved Mob Rules more than Heaven and Hell... it is the deep tracks there that I think make it better. Country Girl, Voodoo and Mob Rules are my favorite Dio era songs.
I discovered a few of the albums you mentioned late... Unmasked, Come Taste The Band and the Tony Martin era Sabbath records. I dig half of Unmasked. I do listen to a few of those songs more than the classic Kiss songs. I really dig Come Taste The Band. I listen to that and the newer Purple more, because they haven't been oversaturated. I was surprised by the quality of the Tony Martin albums, but don't think they hold a candle to anything the band did before that era. I made a mix of favorites from that era and that satisfies me. I find myself listening to Technical Ecstasy, Sabotage, Born Again and Mob Rules the most.
For Kiss... I stop at Lick It Up. But I do not really love any album after the first six.
For Priest, I still think the popular albums are their best. I don't mind Point of Entry, but Nostradamus and Ram It Down suck. Turbo is ok.
Maiden was not mentioned and I do have to say that I listen to No Prayer quite a bit. Do I think it is as good as the classic days? No. But it isn't as worn out. I also listen to mostly new Maiden. I do think some of those records come close, but still not as good. Though I favor listening to them now.
Fascinating installment. I definitely think it's younger people driving a lot of the re-evaluations...partly because they can be exposed to all albums of a catalog at the same time which really levels the playing field and also with the internet giving everyone a platform to share opinions...what better opinion to have than one that runs counter to the general consensus.
Flick Of The Switch and to some extend Fly On The Wall. For the most part ignored for many years but in last 10 years have consistently listened to FOTS & FOTW along with Powerage. Good albums that had songs that weren't satuated by Classic Rock stations.
Great choices and discussion Martin and Pete!
That's a thought that first came to me in the early 2000s when I became aware of Uncut e Mojo. I mean, an special issue about Neil Young's Time Fades Away? Well, that's what happens when you decide to put together a magazine about 60's and 70s rock (for the most part). It becomes hard to talk about the same guy for the zillionth time. So you gotta bring something new to the table. "Everybody knows everything about Harvest, so lets talk about Time Fades Away".
I had a similar discussion recently, about Iron Maiden. I meet more and more people who nowadays actually like the Blaze Bayley stuff. So i asked one of my friends, who i know hated the two Bayley albums back in the day, why he now thinks those are really good records. He answered exactly what you wrote in the title, he said he got bored with the classic albums and tried to listen to X Factor and Virtual XI and found them refreshingly different.
I thought about that remark a bit and found that i also have albums now that i really like after not listening to them for decades. About two years ago i put on Turbo from Priest on accident. I really wanted to listen to Defenders, but then Turbo Lover started and i hesitated to skip the album and actually listened to it in it's entirety and found it to be really good. Back in '86 i hated that Synth sound and couldn't stand listening to it. Now it's one of my go to Priest albums.
And when you think about it, most long running bands had stinkers in their catalog at some point, but people change over time and so does their taste in music. What sounded really bad 30 or 40 years ago, might now just be the stuff of your dreams.
I loved X factor from day one. Virtual has too much filler.
Turbo pretty watered down and guitars are neutered, the one song that really brings it down is Parental Guidance, geared to teenagers and Bieber crowd, with downright silly lyrics and turd worthy chorus....I was embarrassed for Priest upon hearing it.
In my opinion, there are two kinds of listeners. The old listeners that have been with bands since its inception or around that time and new listeners that were born in 21st century, they look at the whole discography retrospectivly when it all has already been released. I'm the one of the second listeners and I can say that I love Van Halen III, The Elder and etc. New listeners love more albums, but old listeners love classics more.
Paul Stanley's solo album is power pop heaven!! đVery fun and enjoyable!!đ€©
The '78 s/t solo album is not bad. I like the numbers that don't really sound like Kiss (then again I also don't like Kiss so...) like "Tonight You Belong To Me", "Ain't Quite Right", "Take Me Away (Together As One)". He put out another solo record in 2006 called Live To Win, kinda AOR-ish mixed with ballads, not as good...For something really different from Stanley there's his 2021 Soul Station project album called Now And Then which is a reworking of soul/r&b tunes - talk about not sounding like Kiss!
Here's one. When it comes to Dream Theater, nearly EVERY fan praises MetrĂłpolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory. However IMO one one of their absolute masterpieces that doesn't get enough love is the follow up to that album, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence! I absolutely adore that album!
Agreed đ love that album !đŻ
Six Degrees is a good album and was always a good album. Another one that doesn't get much attention Train of Thought, The Astonishing, Distance Over Time are all great records just because fans and others didn't pay attention to them upon release doesn't mean they were ever weak records. They are not a band I'd consider for this video topic.
Popoff and Pardo are at it again with how some albums seem to move up the ladder in our listening library. This was true for me even when I started collecting and getting albums so long ago. Remember giving an initial dismissal to the Stones' Let It Bleed and The Moody Blues' Question but in a year or two going back to them and they remain favorites. Seems to me it is likely that our initial listening habits were formed and those tend to be followed but as time permits - either through life or familiarity and/or boredom with other albums, that we seek something 'new' for our ears. Some of Pete's final examples - such as Captain Beyond - hit right on this point. The limited money available at the beginning meant a limit to what was bought and in continual rotation. And in the late sixties and seventies - a prime time for record buying - there was just so much coming out at the radio played such variety that there was always something new. As radio became less and less desirable listening or just too damned repetitive, then some began seeking new music. But also, the change in music formats may have had a bit to do with the delay for some of hearing music. Replacing a large vinyl collection with CDs took a good bit of time - and money - and occupied many years of music acquisitions. But looking for new music to hear is what led to finding the SoT channel. Enough rambling. Thanks for the discussion, gents. There ya go!
I've always liked Turbo, it is one of a kind album. Point of Entry was a grower, it has more varied timbre, texture and tone than any other Priest LP. I actually really liked Nostradamus on day one and bought the CD but I haven't listened to it for years. Painkiller is the last great album they made but it is really really great
Firepower is the last great album Priest has made - and it was their last release. Turbo was different, that's for sure......very, very different......
Wow, great topic! Iâm 51 and only really started exploring lots of heavy music a few years ago. The albums that spurred this were the KC trio of Thrak, construction of light and PARTICULARLY Power to Believe. Wow! Plus I grew up with 90125, and still only like that album and Drama. Interesting to think how my age is part of this.
All 5 of those albums have a slight shimmery metallic sheen to them courtesy of abrasive guitars played intricately.
Speaking of KC, never had a problem with the Islands title track and some of the 90125 album I can still like. Do these albums get slammed as much as in the past? Probably not.
I've been a fan of Aerosmith's "Done With Mirrors" since it came out. It was super aggressive and the first side fires off 4 salvos that just about overwhelm you like a freight train barreling past you. The second side is less so, but there are still fines songs as well. No "radio hits" like those on "Permanent Vacation", but just a rocker of an album.
Done with Mirrors always seemed really unambitious to me but when you start counting songs, it has at least seven good ones. There's something spontaneous but not random about it, like they just wrote songs five minutes ago but did it with their basic understanding of blues rock
Toys in the attic & Rocks there best 2
I'm so with you on Done With Mirrors - I consider it their last "classic" album and when I did an Aerosmith playlist I stopped there (even though I also love Permanent Vacation and Pump). I agree that the energy of the first 5 songs is just off the hook. And their rendition of Let The Music Do The Talking is an all-time classic. It's the last album that feels like "real Aerosmith" to me.
An interesting conversation . Your comment about groups playing songs in concert from these sorts of albums was very apt . I saw King Crimson in Toronto in 2019 , and the standout song of the night , for me , was Islands . It pushed me to go back and revisit that album , which I now appreciate a lot more . As for Who Do We Think We Are , I have always liked that album a lot .
Martin , image and style of music aside , Max Webster should have been bigger ! ( because I grew up watching them in clubs around Toronto , I am , of course , biased here ) . Thank you gentlemen !!
waitwaitwait, I was the only one in my town who defended "Nostradamus" when it came out and I stand to my opinion to this day, it's full of great songs! and Airey's keyboards! it's epic, man; the problem is too many slow songs and way too many interludes, make it a single disc album and it's a classic đșđ€
Thanks for another great show!
Nostradamus is a fine album for what it is - a Classical metal opera. Especially the first disc works in that context, as well as âDeathâ from disc 2. However, that is unfortunately an album that I donât want to hear from Judas Priest. I want to hear more straight-forward metal, not Italian opera-fusion. So, that is why I lump Nostradamus with Turbo (I have no need for hair metal) and Point of Entry (I have no need for second-rate Acdc-clone).
My friend says its their masterpiece,their absolute best.
@@Rextum Agree with everything you said, Priest going Opera, Turbo being limp and silly, juvenile lyrics.....except for your take on Point Of Entry. Love that album for it's craft and sleek production, still enough edge for me, songs catchy and memorable.
Great show as always!
This is a Fantastic topic, really enjoyed this episode
So many good topics on here that need discussions
Totally agree on Drama...I have always loved Tempis Fugit, but recently dove deeper and love Machine Messiah and Does It Really Happen. Absolutely top notch tracks!
King Crimson IMHO was and is way ahead of most other prog bands.Thier music being closer to Jazz has made it age much better .
I'm 54 to give a little context. I tend not to over-listen to stuff, so I don't think that I'm sick of any albums, really. There are songs that I'm tired of because I grew up with the radio. My theory is that a big part of it is that people like to be different. It's now cool to be different. In the 70's and 80's, it wasn't as cool to be different. Also some people like to be contrarian - Martin's even got a show called that. Some people like to troll other people in the comments to get a reaction. I don't understand that way of thinking, but some people get off on it. I tend to be influenced by what I hear first from a group - definitely not all the time, but many times. There also seems to be a sweet spot where I like a lot of music. And that seems to be the years of 1978-1982. Many albums that I love fall into those years from what I can tell. I've never really taken inventory of this. Very interesting topic and show.
I know a bunch of people who loved the Tony Martin era albums even in the 90s/early 2000s! Eternal Idol has been my favorite alongside the first six Ozzy albums and the Dio ones at least a decade now. So, no, not everyone dismissed those albums (even if a lot of people did). Sabbath, Priest and Maiden have always been appreciated and revered even by the younger generation of metalheadsđ
I think sometimes it's what you hear first, and sometimes it's not. I started with Priest on Point of Entry and had no idea it was supposed to be bad. Never stopped liking it. Turbo, I did think was pretty bad at the time, but I do like the sound of it, and "Turbo Lover" is a pretty artfully arranged and produced song, I think. It's not my favorite Priest, but I like it.
I always loved the Tony Martin era of Sabbath, and have a Laney GH50L that I love because it gets that tone pretty well. Still think the last two 70s Ozzy albums weren't that great compared to the previous, but there is still listenable stuff on there.
When I was getting into Deep Purple, I didn't think much of Come Taste The Band: title, cover, and sound all didn't do much for me. Now I really like it. It's just different. Took me a while to appreciate that, and get past expectations.
Classic period Yes is great, but I have always really liked Drama and the first two, which nobody talks about. I think of them as similar to Mk I Purple and the first Camel and Dust albums.
BOC didn't get mentioned (part two?), would be interesting to hear if anyone's favorite is Spectres or Club Ninja, etc.
In the end, I think a lot of it comes from love of the classic material of these bands, and re-evaluating the less popular albums to discover a lot of effort and talent went into them. Sometimes it takes a while to really appreciate a change in direction. But if there really are people saying Never Say Die is the best Sabbath album, well, that's an interesting choice. Definitely adventurous, and poppier than they'd ever been, and I could see someone finding that endearing.
Very cool show as always. My comments are:
1. Each of the albums "rising" in popularity has to be looked on an individual basis. Don't think the older generations being bored with the classics explains every case.
2. Have to be careful in determining which are true cases of albums rising up.
3. We are now in the era where most of the old albums are now accessible to everyone and can be listened to fairer light.
The album that I could speak on was Who Do We Think We Are by Deep Purple. That album to me rocks. I like it better than Fireball. Jon Lord's performance as always is stellar. The critics at the time said at the time that the band mailed it in, which sounds furthest from the truth. Sometimes people do their best work under duress. Anyway, being able to listen to it objectively under a different context is the point.
Another great show,guysđđ€My fridays arent complete,til I see the funhouse.đ
I loved Yes Drama at the time but thats when I first got into Yes . Still in my top 3 favorite Yes albums .
Love your shows. I honestly believe its exactly what was mentioned about listening to your favorite albums and ignoring the technical ecstasy and never say die. This happened to me as a kid, I remember listening to zeppelin 4 for years and never turning the album over and listening to side two.
Glad to see UK.
My brother and I saw the video for "Nothing To Lose" when "Danger Money" came out, so I've been a fan of this album for a long time.
One of my favorite radio programs as a kid was Stone Trek (a variety of progressive rock and jazz/fusion) with Greg Stone on KOME (98.5, San Jose, CA). He was a champion of Eddie Jobson and John Wetton, so that's how I heard the first UK album. Both albums are brilliant in their own right.
The best music duo on CZcams /internet. Period. Thanks always!
Great topic and conversation. A band I love that never gets mentioned is Tony Carey and Planet P Project, especially Pink World. They had very moderate success but had some classic tunes and Tony's solo stuff was great too. You would think coming out of Rainbow, more people would have given it a chance.
Again an example of how the lead singer and lead guitar players are always the biggest attractions in rock bands.
Bands that just fall through the cracks don't really fit this topic. We all know many bands that released solid music but it just didn't get the push. Martin makes that point near the end when he says so many artists are releasing music and there just isn't enough time for us to hear and invest in them all.
Yes
The song Vigilante from his I Won't Be Home Tonight album is great.
Tony Carey is fantastic. Just his contributions to "On Stage" puts him in a legendary tier.
I feel this way about Zep- In through the Outdoor and Coda and Stones- Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You ..
A lot of Zep bores the shit outta me these days but ITTOD has always had some interesting cuts, no probs with it.
Two points you didnât touch upon;
1. An album can grow over time. Back in the â80s I was into heavy stuff - thrash etc, and I thought "Power Windows" and "Hold Your Fire" were soft pop albums. But man, those have grown on me through the years, and I love them now.
2. If critics decide an album is crap, you often think of it with that mindset. "Music from the Elder" is a good example - back in the â80s I couldnât afford to buy everything I wanted, and "âŠthe Elder" was considered crap, so I never bought it. But when I bought the CD in the late â90s, I really loved it, and I still do. Back in the day I just bought into the critics and condemned it without really give it a chance.
Another point is: the Internet & social media. Now, _everyone_ is a critic and can opine in public. If 1000 people loved "Point of Entry" in 1995, few would hear about it. Now every one of them can hammer in comments on Facebook. I suppose Sea of Tranquility (and other forums) go back a long way (so the opportunity was there), but social media has turbocharged this aspect.
Both very good points and I agree regarding Rush. VERY good point - back in the day if an album was trashed I avoided it without actually hearing it, now I can sample anything before purchasing.
Three of the records you mentioned I have loved since I first heard them. KISS Elder I got when it came out and I have always loved that record, I don't think its their best but one of my favorites. Rush Caress of Steel... the first 5 Rush albums were played constantly by my older cousin (who is a huge Rush fan) when I was young and I took a shine to Caress and it has been my favorite since. Lizard was my second King Crimson purchase and first on CD. I have had a soft spot for that one too. I agree with your topic here with Deep Purple and Sabbath with Come Taste and WDWTWA and Technical and NSD getting more listens because of the other albums being overplayed. Great show Guys!
I'll give "The Elder" (it was out of print when I was a kid) some props for "World Without Heroes" (Pay me Gene). I am of that age that got into Rush in the late 80's. I was the video for "Show Don't Tell"on MTV, at my grandma's house. Geddy's bass solo floored me. I went out and bought "Pretso" the next day. I saw King Crimson twice on the "Thrak" tour. Both times, absolutely brilliant.
One big one for me is âPretzel Logicâ by Steely Dan. I am very attached to like âAjaâ or the first album, but since it came out the year I was born and my parents loved it, I re-listened to âPretzel Logicâ. Itâs now maybe my second favorite in the catalog after Aja! Songs like âAny Major Dude Will Tell Youâ, âWith a Gunâ, and the title track are amazing! It isnât just âRikki Donât Lose That Numberâ anymore! đ
My favorite Steely Dan album is "Katy Lied." Very underrated. I'll put it up against any of their albums. They do have a great standard of quality, and you can argue for a bunch of different albums being "their best." That's really the mark of a top band - when lots of people disagree on what their best work is!
@@flazjsg totally agree with what you said about when people disagree is an indication of a good catalog. I mean Aja has special meaning to me because of listening to it a lot as a kid, but I mean they donât really have a bad album in their catalog. @petepardo did a great job a while back ranking them. I wonder if his order would have changed by now?
@@bigj4426 To me Aja is THE album whenever the subject of perfect albums' comes up - it's my go-to...Pete's fave SD album I believe was The Royal Scam - great album!
I have always liked the Paul Stanley solo album, even over Ace's. Not a re-vision.
I just ordered Essential albums by Welsh band ManâŠalways new music to discover when you might tire of the classics you listened to so many timesâŠ..great conversation ladsâŠwell done and thanks!
Nailed the commentary on Rush. As a Rush fan who recently turned the big 6-0, I bought Caress Of Steel when it came out, and actually still rank it as one of my favorites. The Necromancer and Fountain Of Lamneth I don't ever get tired of to this day. And I remember being at my brother's (also big Rush fan) hearing Counterparts for the first time. "Wow the guitars are back in the forefront! Animate is over 6 minutes! Excellent!" were the comments we made upon first listen.
Great topic and I am always looking for that classic rock album that needs to be dusted off and given a listen, lots of great stuff out there that needs to be given a chance, excellent show gentleman !
Great show! SO many reasons for this phenomenon. Yes, sometimes we are tired of listening to the usual suspects-type albums, and naturally start gravitating towards the less-well-known ones that we didn't really listened to that much back in the day, and develop a genuine appreciation for them as we study them more closely. But sometimes our tastes also change and develop as times goes by, so that one album that disappointed us back in 1984, is sounding more interesting today. Also, sometimes people are reflexively contrarian, and go for the one album that no one likes, just to be cool or annoying. And sometimes, an album comes out and is completely panned or ignored by both critics and fans alike, and it turns out 50+ years later that the band was arguably ahead of its time, and in retrospect, that album was actually brilliant (the early Velvet Underground discography comes to mind as a perfect example). And sometimes, a shitty album just stays a shitty album.
Good morning guys great show as always.
Rush's post-Moving Pictures trio of albums have risen in my estimation. My uber-familiarity with the classics may have something to do with it, especially in the fact that I listen to them more now than the classics. But the reason I love them now is because they're super albums that I wasn't ready for at the time.
â@@drocker4729 I hadn't heard of them. I just listened to Inner Light from White Buffalo. Cool to see younger musicians carrying the torch.
Every Rush album is good, great or perfect depending on the album. There is no bad Rush album in my opinion.
If I lived on a desert island for 1000 years I still wouldn't be able to listen to rush.
@@drocker4729 It's so good. Context part 2 is out now, really good also.
I liked all of their post-MP output. Hell, I often listen to Presto Hold Your Fire and Roll The Bones. There is something to love on every Rush album.
There are certain albums, by certain bands, that I just didn't "get," and really appreciate, as a young man, but over time, they "clicked" with me, and now, I truly love them. "In Through the Out Door" is a top example. That album *seriously* disappointed my teenage self, who mostly wanted to hear the hard rocking side of Zep. Over the last two decades, I've come to love it, and it's genuinely a Zep favorite for me!
I own 39 copies of In Through the Out Door and i salute you sir. This comment is 100% on point!
Martins comment about the playing field being level in the 70âs was spot on imo. Music is a meritocracy for the most part, the cream will generally rise to the top.
Nostalgia is a key ingredient.
Gentlemen, as always a great show! So many obscure or overlooked albums that grow in appreciation for sure. And also true, there is often a lot of crap that gets reassessed over time, but is still crap! Perhaps itâs because, as compared to music today, we are desperate to hold onto anything that represents great music that we are willing to expand that definition to include the entire catalogue of a fav band because there is nothing better that has come along and we cling to those great bands we grew up with. Who knows? Letâs just say PFâs Atom Heart Mother and Obscured by Clouds both get Aâs from me. Maybe didnât 20-30 years ago, but they def do now!
Martin, Iâm really enjoying your PF book so thanks again very much!!
Great topic and discussion, gentlemen. I've been thinking about this idea a lot lately. Martin, we did do a recent Caress of Steel episode of The Contrarians. I gave it high praise. During and after, I wondered how much of my appreciation for Caress was because of it's own merits and how much was because I have heard others so much more. The whole debate was confounded by the fact that I have heard A Farewell to Kings more than any Rush album, but it is still my favorite from the 70s. I loved Eternal Idol and Turbo when they were new, so no revisionist opinions there. I still love them, even if they are not my favorites by Sabbath and Priest. Surprised that Imaginos was not mentioned, or Seventh Star. Tons to pick from, though. This topic might be good for a sequel.
While there are certain songs and albums that I've gotten tired of (due to oversaturation), I don't necessarily agree with the notion that middle or lower tier albums (consensus-wise) are loved simply because listeners got bored with the classics; could be part of it (for some), but there are a multitude of possible factors that play into this: timing, point of entry, personal taste, etc. Speaking of taste, you can almost apply an analogy with the utmost literal sense of the term; there are foods you enjoyed at earlier points in time, but later on, you find those foods just don't hit the spot quite like they used to. The reverse is also true. Why? Tastes changed. This happens, too. Doesn't exactly mean the music/artist/food is inherently 'good' or 'bad'...just one's personal response to it. I'm a fan of nearly every band that was covered in this episode, but I didn't experience many of the album releases in real time - I discovered them all in the '90s and '00s.
With this said, I'm someone who tunes out a lot of the 'noise' - in other words, I don't pay much attention to comments/opinions from critics, or even other fans when approaching music; my relationship with a song, album, even an artist, in general, is very intimate and personal - it's just me and the song. Me and the album. Me and the music. My reaction - whether it coincides with popular sentiment or not - is my reaction. I like it, or I don't. If what's being implied is actually happening, I don't care nearly enough to join in on that game, i.e. the conscious attempt to elevate critically-panned albums to classic status. I listen to music for myself.
Few comments on the artists mentioned:
Yes - Love Drama, and loved it the first time I heard it. Above albums like Close to the Edge, Relayer, Fragile, and Going for the One? Nope. Top 10, though. Tales from Topographic Oceans? Love it. Not my fav, but it's top 5.
KISS - Perfect example of the 'personal relationship' thing mentioned above. Hotter than Hell and the s/t debut are my top 2. Loved Unmasked the first time I heard it; my third favorite. I love Destroyer. It's my fourth fav. Three 'classics', one 'stinker'. I love The Elder - cracks my top 10. Ok, make that two 'stinkers'. Love Gun is an album that just about every KISS fan seems to hold in high regard; It has mostly left me cold ever since the day I first heard it. Bored of it? Tired of talking about it? No. Most of the songs on there just sound half-baked, and have never done much for me. Simple.
Judas Priest - Defenders of the Faith is my fav. Sin After Sin is second. Turbo? Yep, I've always dug it. Still do. Point of Entry? Same. I haven't listened to Nostradamus as of yet, and the same goes for everything else after Painkiller (I know, I know...)
King Crimson - Lizard I liked upon first listen. After a few listens, I loved it; my third favorite after Larks' Tongues in Aspic and Red. However, Islands has slipped down the rungs over time for me, personally. I love the album, but go for a bunch of others even more.
Rush - Loved Caress of Steel right from the start. Nothing to do with any outside stuff whatsoever. Cracks my top 5. Hold Your Fire was the second album I ever heard from the band, and loved it right away; the songs, the melodies, the writing, the ambiance. Special mention must be given to the lyrics; they really connected as I was in a particularly dark place in my life at the time. Top 10 album. And it must be said, I was oblivious to the fact that it was loathed by many Rush fans when I bought it.
Deep Purple - Going through a 'reassessment' period regarding this band's catalogue at the moment, so I won't say much here. I'm still not quite on board with Who Do We Think We Are, though; Didn't like it much when I first heard it, and even now, I find it patchy, some great songs notwithstanding.
Aerosmith - Off and on with this band. Don't have any of the three albums Martin held up; only the first four, and the 'comeback' albums from Permanent Vacation to Get a Grip. Fav is Toys in the Attic.
Black Sabbath - There are some gaps here, but I will say straight-up that Paranoid was never one of my top faves from Sabbath, and this was the first album I bought from their catalogue. Didn't listen to it a ton back then, and still don't at present. Would I go so far as to put it below Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die!? No.
Long post. Interesting topic.
A similar discussion are âlet downâ albums that didnât live up to the predecessor at the timeâŠthat the bands basically disowned themâŠbut 5-7 years later because of the fans love them so much the band reassesses them. Weezer -Pinkerton and Therapy? Infernal Love. In both cases they were a departure from the predecessor, that the public/record companies couldnât deal with at the time, but later people realize how strong they are, and are now âclassicsâ for the band
I was born in 77 so Turbo was the first Priest album I bought with my paper route money in the 80âs because thatâs what was out at the time. Not my favourite anymore as I got older & explored the back catalogue. But I can see why it would appeal more to my age group than people who were kids/teenagers when Stained Class or British Steel came out :-)
Some songs are cringe, but most people get around to being at least ok with it eventually- probably due to the instrumentals being so good or because it's a feel-good album with a very retro 80's sound. The people I always argue with however are the ones that think British Steel doesn't get at least slightly ruined by stuff like United or Living after Midnight, while Turbo might get hate for something like Wild Nights, Hot & Crazy Days. There's really not much you can do to make a Pain Killer or Stained Class fan love Turbo, but to me it always made more sense for people to not bash on it if they liked everything from Killing Machine through Screaming for Vengeance. There's still a solid familiarity in song structures and vibes to make it a close cousin to lots of previous records
Interesting discussion....I think another factor is that the record buying public's tastes were definitely shaped by influential music journalists and reviewers back in the day. A clutch of stinker reviews could bias some listeners, then over time the 'bad' reputation of a particular album could become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Nowadays though, a lot of younger listeners come to these records without the baggage of the accepted critical consesus.
As far as Rush goes, I never get bored with their discography. Pretty much covers all my 19 moods. I think the reason one bypasses an album in a catalogue of a beloved band, is that they are unable to "go with the flow" at that particular time, and you either want to go in their direction or not.
Drama was my first yes album and I still love its heaviness
Martin hit the nail on the head with the âbaby boom blipâ. I was 13 years old when Judas Priest's Turbo was released. I loved it as a 13 year old and I have continued to love it throughout the subsequent years. When I was 13 years old, I was not a part of the cognoscenti who determined the critical consensus that was passing judgement on the facts that Priest softened their sound in order to appeal to a more commercial audience. But as an adult, I leant my voice to that consensus to contribute to the turnaround in the opinion about that album.
I adore The Big Generator. The entire album.
Always love KC Lizard and Island. Even back in the day.
Big Generator has some great Yes songs;Final Eyes,Shoot High Aim Low,I'm Running
One of the best shows you guys ever did.
Was there anybody talking about Who Do We Think We Are? Yeah, me! (When I first heard it in the mid-'80s.) Can anyone name songs off The Elder that stand out? Yeah, me!
I love this show, but for this episode it's like these guys forgot that each person has different preferences. Or it never occurred to them that some fans got attached to those records right from jump. I love The Elder, Caress of Steel, and Who Do We Think We Are -- and in all of those cases, I heard them all as a teenager in the '80s working my way through those bands' discographies. Which meant that I heard them side by side with the more iconic records from those bands (some of which I also love).
When a band has a fairly large discography, people can gravitate to strange combinations of albums, and it isn't always linear: It's possible to love Caress of Steel, Permanent Waves, Signals and Roll The Bones, for example. Or Dressed to Kill, Love Gun, Unmasked, The Elder, and Lick It Up. Pete has done at least one episode where he talks about not just liking the hits or the popular albums, so the angle of this episode seems odd to me.
Still love the show, but I had to hit stop in case either one disparaged the songs Rat Bat Blue or Super Trouper, two of my all-time favorite Purple songs.
One of the reasons that we're "rediscovering" great, lesser known albums could be because of channels like SoT and Contrarians. You are shedding light on albums that deserved more attention.
Great discussion Martin and Pete. Alot one could be said of Aerosmith albums and finding classics that you thought weren't but in time you appear to think so today. Now when they throw in reach album like Just Push Play what is that but trash. Unless we get looking for something new and ask what the thing was they trying to do and can you have really fresh ears on a really bad album. Not sure I got there yet with the album and many may never will. TC and a great day. Happy St Patrick's folks.đ
Never liked Turbo and still don't, but Point of Entry is one of my favorite Priest albums.
2 examples you brought upâŠI always liked Drama from the start. I missed Jon Anderson but the music was so powerful that it won me over and is still high on my Yes list. I always liked Thrak as wellâŠ.still think that is a strong KC record. The great example was AerosmithâŠnever heard anyone say they liked Night in the Ruts until recent years, but it is very good!
Great show. History is full of examples of artists and works highly popular and respected now who were not so much in their day - only selling a handful of paintings, books that didnt sell well and went out of print, etc only to be re-discovered later by a new generation and venerated.
A lot of those bands from the 70s that "should of been huge" but were not, I think one of the main reasons was back in those days before youtube, mtv, etc, the only way you could hear those bands were if they were played on the radio, or you took a chance on it/them with the little money most of us teens/young adults had to spend on albums or had a friend that did, or if they went on a lot of tours with other big bands and lets face it, radio did not play much of that type of music unless they already were a 'big band' say like Led Zeppelin, etc same with opening bands, because sadly most people I knew back in the day, would Not even give the opening band a chance and were in the parking lot drinking beer, etc.
Also Pete, I know you're not a fan but goddammit! Motley Crue's self titled album with John Corabi is a damn good heavy rock album!
Pete said in the past that he likes The John Corabi album as do I and it's their heaviest album.
Part of this discussion needs to be more about the upsurge in more opinions being heard in the internet era. Some of these albums were trashed early in print reviews, and that was the only opinions you heard pre-internet. Now that everyone has the ability to voice personal opinions, albums that were trashed by the critics, are now defended by those fans that have loved these albums from the beginning. Another point worth mentioning is how personal taste evolves as we get older, and things we used to hate become more tolerable as time passes.
That's true, opinion about music can/does change over time but I don't think that's what Pete & Martin were addressing here. To me they were talking about those fans who out of boredom (?) are revisiting prior so-so or even disliked albums & 'reevaluating' them as good-to-great for the sake of finding more good music to listen to/talk about/praise. To me it's a sign of having somewhat limited your listening universe to a relatively small number of bands/albums...As far as music critics go they obviously have their place but if you're someone buying music based solely on their reviews then you're already in a lot of trouble (same with movies)...
Tales from Topographic Oceans blew my mind when I first heard it. I was expecting a boat of shit after when you guys (and others) have dragged it through! I was born in '91, so I didn't catch it when it first came out, but I thoroughly enjoyed it - yes, I was stoned.
Overall I think it's unfair to say that we get bored about the classics and therefor we dive into the "lesser" albums. I think many people have genuinely always liked the dark horses but didn't dare/ care voicing their opinion, or frankly didn't have the plateform to do so (remember when there was no CZcams?). I have ALWAYS from DAY 1 loved The Elder, Unmasked and Point of Entry, and that is simply because they're the first albums I got from those bands. We all come from a different point in time in a band's discography, not to mention the geography.
So, I think that we talk about dark horses for many reasons and because we have more ways to do so.
Bored with the classics...probably, but that doesn't mean the other albums weren't appreciated and cherished back in the day, at least to me.
Cheers.
I will be 50 in may and "Painkiller" has always been in my top 5 Judas Priest albums.
I love the Yes DRAMA cd .I have the one with extra tracks Damn good.đ
Although I'm still in search of the DRAM-UH recording can't find the damn thing anywheređ€Ł
You said The Cure. I caught that Martin!
My favorite show of the week as always. You guys are the best
I have this thing where I get very mathematical about how I rate some albums and sometimes I'll notice that certain classics have less good songs in general, even if I agree on the hits being that good. Those 1-4 lesser known songs can make an album be a #1 or slide it down to #6 if the band in question has generally consistent output. This makes for some weird tier lists- like how I'm more into Animal Magnetism and Savage Amusement by Scorpions than Love at First Sting (the breakthrough album). Similarly to Fighting, Black Rose or Bad Reputation by Thin Lizzy- all of which I prefer over Jailbreak- or several Motorhead albums which I prefer over Ace of Spades and Iron Fist. I picked these as examples because in general I like the hits on the album but not so much the filler, so I can't really blame it on the fact that some songs are overplayed at all- there's a genuine gap in quality that's making me prefer a less obvious choice...
I still remember being the only kid in middle school who liked Born Again. Speaking of that album, I read that they found the master tapes. We need a 40th anniversary remix release that includes the Worcester MA show, (coulda gone to that one dammit).
I have always liked the Tony Martin era albums, equally as strong lyrically and musically as the so called classics, I go to them more than the ozzy stuff, my favourite will always be Heaven & Hell and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath for sentimental reasons.
The first (4) King Crimson albums [Court, Poseidon, Cirkus, Islands]... even with all of the lineup changes I have always seen as a single continuum... Fripp was the single unifying thread, but people seem to overlook the contributions of pianist Keith Tippett who I absolutely love.
I purchased all of these albums, plus the Bruford, Welton, Cross, Muir albums during my formative high school years. I sat in my room and played them endlessly, digesting the music as it became through time this special musical soundtrack of those years...
For me, I can listen to the song "Cirkus" forever! It is so over the top, surreal, even demented. Fripp combines this manic acoustic guitar virtuosity with the introduction of his sustained guitar backgrounds... "Cirkus" even by itself is worth the price of admission. The album remains underrated but to me it was this fresh departure covering a new music terrain into Jazz.
Fripp's guitar solo on "Sailors Tale" continues to make the hair on my head 'stand on end'! It is dark, brooding, even angry and 'letting off steam' - brilliant work - in contrast to the tranquil salt air, oceanic Pastoral qualities found throughout the rest of the album.
It is the KC uiet departures classical orchestral album.
Forgot to mention... "Cirkus" from the album 'Cirkus' (1970) + "Sailors Tale" from 'Islands' (1971)
Slaves and masters is another DP album that everyone crapped on back then, now its starting to get some love