Negative Rake Scraper Basics
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- čas přidán 18. 01. 2018
- Mike explains what is a negative rake scraper how to sharpen and use one. He explains why it is different than a conventional scraper when your wood turning requires the use of a scraper.
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You can download demonstration handouts, downloadable copies of articles I have published, and other useful woodturning information available on my website www.mikepeacewoodturning.com/r... - Jak na to + styl
Well done Mike.......Negative rake scrapers are my "Peace" of mind........:)
A few years old but still a great video with clear explanations and demonstrations. Well done. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Спасибо за науку, успехов в творчестве!!!!
Thank you, I have learned a huge amount about scraper and sharpening them.
Thanks Mike, great information I learned much.
Hello Mr. Peace, this is an informative and well presented video lesson that answered questions I had about NRS.
Thank you👍🏽
Wow! I've been using the same edge on my NRS since I bought it 2 years ago! Thanks for showing us how to sharpen them. I'm gonna give it a try. Thanks again for all your great vids!
Extremely Informative short course on Negative Rake Scrapers Sir. Thank you for helping to teach and old dog new tricks. Regards from the mountains of the Philippines!
Glad it was helpful!
I truly am glad you shared this. I myself am not a scraper person so far... I will take these tips to heart and try again! Thank you so much again.
Thank you for shearing Mr Peace
Thanks for the education Mike.
Nice presentation!
Thank you! Cheers!
Thanks for this video learned a lot.
Thank you Mike for a great video and I never realized how much time it takes to make these videos. Thanks again and keep them coming.
You are welcome. To teach is to learn twice and I enjoy the YT video creation process almost as much as turning.
Mike, I enjoyed your video. There are loads of great tips. Thanks for sharing.
Marshall Gorrow Thanks for you encouagement.
Another beauty Mike. Your always interesting. always well presented and always well researched.
Thanks for the feedback, Ray!
I always wondered why my big Sorby regular rake scraper was so aggressive. I have to hold the handle kind of high like you demonstrated. I think I'll try grinding in a negative rake and see how that goes. Thanks Mike!
Thanks Mike, I've converted a small 1/2 to a negative, but did not realise the importance of the burr. so I will follow your advice and tune it up a little with a burnisher. AND at a slower speed. :D
This was just what was needed for a current project. I learned so much. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Very informative. Thanks.
THANKS Mike for another great video! I've often wondered about converting several of my tools to a 'negative rake scraper' and now I'm going to try converting some of them to see how they work! Great video, great explanations and ideas! Thanks once again for such a great video! Safe turning to you and yours ALWAYS!
Yes, I definitely would give them a try. Thanks for watching.
Great content......really enjoyed it
Thanks for an informative video. I have been using scalpers to eliminate tool marks and tear out with mixed results. I appreciate the “try it and see” approach. Was not sure of where to start with the bevel angles.
Great class Thanks
Nice video. I have been looking for something visual and informational which shows and tells me what a negative rake scraper is and how to make one. This was a good source for me on the basics. At least it allows me to start some place with my existing scraper if I choose. So many videos aren't useful because the video doesn't really adequately show what is being done. Yours does. Thanks.
Mike, your videos are a turners treasure trove! Bless you for taking your time and effort to share. I just cant bring myself to grind up that $100+ big rs scraper, not just yet!
Bob, thanks for commenting. When I need a big scraper I will regrind. Better to have a tool I use or use a tool I have.
Mike, thank you for the information. As a new turner I like how you teach.
Thanks, Scott!
Thank you , for sharing ! Mr peace !
Thanks for a good explanation of negative rake scrapers, Mike! You confirmed what I had “pieced” together from reading and videos. I thought I understood it, and it’s nice to confirm that as I’ve gotten into trouble by trying to do too much “thinking” before....! Lol!
Glad to help
Good info, I have never used a neg rake scraper, but looking forward to learning how to use it. Thanks for sharing
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you Mike for this video..I guess I should use them more and learn to sharpen and experiment..
You bet!
Great video. Very informative and easy to follow. Thanks for making it
My pleasure!
As always great video Mike thanks
Thanks 👍
Great comparison. Thank you 🙏
My pleasure!
very informative
excellent! I am off to the shop right now!
Safe turning!
Very informative video, thank you.
Thanks, Doug. It just requires practice once you understand it.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing! I learned a ton!
So glad!
Great video, thanks Mike. :)
Really good video, Mike!
Thanks, Rick. One more this Friday.
Thanks Mike, you answered a lot of question I had quite clearly. Much appreciated!
Good info thanks from Australia
Thank you.
Great video Mike.
Thanks 👍
Nice one Mike,hope you find your magic angles sooner rather than later👍👍👍👍👍
Yes, if they are truely magic! 🤔
ThanksMike. I think I finally have a good understanding of that burr. I’m watching at 11:45 PM, and actually thinking about going out in the shop and trying this.
That is the way to do. Go in your shop and experiment. Recognize types of wood and end grain vs side grain will react different to diffrent burrs or no burr.
Gary McCoy Gary, You wouldn’t be THE Gary McCoy, the MotoGP & WSB rider would you?
Ron
Great info!, as always.
Sweet. great job
Thanks!
Good information, thanks 👍
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the education really appreciate you taking the time
Tom here; I've honestly been mystified by this whole concept!! Thanks for clarifying
and showing me the way!!!
Happy it was helpful for you, Gayle.
Just getting into scrapers awesome info
Thanks, Kandie!
Thanks much! Very useful information.
Glad it was helpful!
@@MikePeaceWoodturning 👍👍👍🍻
Some really excellent tips there Mike. For some time now I have all but one of my scrapers negative rake, and have found that 70°/30° suits my general needs.
Great video my friend
Take care
Mike
I watched your scraping video and also got some good points. I was wondering if you were still using the 70/30. I am still trying to find the best angle for me but I feel it will be less than 90 degrees total included angle so I can get a burr off the grinder if I decide not to hone or burnish one. Doc Green says you won't get a burr off the grinder if the angle is greater than 90 degree.
I understand where your coming from Mike, but honestly, all I can say is that I get a great cut from those angles, and that's what I was looking for. I am not an expert, and certainly bow down to people like Doc Green, but it works for me.
Cheers
Mike
Thank you very much, Mike! Excellent info! I have about 10 scrapers and skews of various sizes and shapes, of which only one scraper currently has a negative rake (bought it that way). You have convinced me to convert at least 6 of my tools to a negative rake. Keep 'em coming, Mike! I learn a lot from you! Lots of people ask me how I learned to turn ... whether I am "self-taught". Your instructional videos are so good, and I learn so much from them, that I can't say with a straight face that I am "self-taught" anymore. Thank you!
Thanks, George. That is quite a compliment.
George V but it's true thanks Mike
George V 7
I might just try this on an old skew and see how it goes, thanks much.
Please do!
All about the burr and you got it. Robos' angles work well for me!!!
You can always knock down the burr on a standard scraper, for better control. Wonderful video. Love the Dremel tool!!!!!!!!!! You are good as a teacher, I have learned a lot from you!!!!!!
Thanks for that, John.
Thank you, John.
This might be the first of your videos I have watched. VERY helpful Mike. I have been using mostly negative rake scrapers for just about 3 years (since a class with Stuart Batty). I think I have a significant preference for the grind of about 22 degrees on both sides of the tool. Seems to me that cuts better and maybe develops/lasts better.. Your video reminded me that I have to keep checking the burr to be sure it's still there. I am also interested to try dropping my speed when I am using the scraper. I have been running about twice that. And then there's shear scraping with a SCRAPER rather than a gouge.
Fine video, thank you. The try it and see approach was great.
Thanks! Glad it was informative.
I’m a new subscriber. I really enjoyed your video on negative rake scraper. Thank you for your very informative video I needed it. See you on other video.
Thanks for subbing!
I saw you at the Waco, Texas show on Saturday. You were pretty busy. Love your videos.
Awesome! Thank you! Yes we stayed busy.
I would highly recommend the negative rake round nose scraper...LOL this is the 11th opinion.
As always great tips. Hock tools has a carbide rod sharpener that can be glued into a handle
I found that. www.hocktools.com/products/sb.html
Looks like tool steel not carbide. Might work but it has a hardness about that of most turning tools. I would still recommend carbide.
The negative rake doesn't grab because the burr is on a surface that isn't parallel to the bottom part if the tool in the tool rest. When you apply a force to the tip of the tool it just forces it down into the rest instead of grabbing it deeper into the arch
Another very informative video. Thanks so much for all your time and effort and willingness to share your expertise. Any chance you would do a video on making that carbide burnishing tool? Or possibly direct me to an article on it? Thanks so much!
czcams.com/video/FAGXHpnrkcA/video.html
Never used one. Now I am convinced/ Thnks
Practice, Practice, practice
Informative as usual love ur teatshings & how was ur coffee ☕️ 😄
Good, thank you.
Good information, Mike ... thanks for posting. One of my instructors taught that the included angle of a negative rake scraper should be
Not all turners agree but I am with you on this.
I don't know if you ever tried it mike but I use the spear point on a lot of roughing,,turning square to round,,does a good job,,lol,,seen that one on you tube as well,,,
Sounds like a gnarly surface. I would rather slice than scrape on roughing.
Sir you are very informative in this video and find the information easy to follow I am an U.S. Army O.I.F veteran who is interested in wood turning. I plan on purchasing a nova comet ii when I have enough money saved. Value any advice you have to give seeing that you have plenty of experience with wood turning.
Thanks. I would reconsider the Comet with its 3/4 hp motor. I think you will reach its limits quicker than with some other midi lathes. Did you watch this? czcams.com/video/s0YDgte_C7Q/video.html
Thanks for the tips, I used a carbide round cutter and I could not get the ridges out of an acrylic bowl I was turning, maybe a negative rake scraper is in order
It is worth a shot since I use the negative scraper to get out ripples from a wood bowl. Never turned an acrylic bowl.
Thanks from a new turner. I noticed that you never scraped all the way to the edge of the piece. You mentioned flexing, is there another approach to smoothing the outer surface that I should know about? Maybe you've covered this in a video that I haven't seen yet. Have a great day!
Watch the scraper playlist starting wiht this one czcams.com/video/77Yyd7PGMCA/video.html
Thanks Mike, I think i'm finally getting a handle on the "burr" or "bur" :) I've been trying to understand which side of the bur cuts. You have clearly taught me how to do that. I don't understand why a bur cuts ....but I guess that doesn't matter. If I apply logic to the problem. You are rolling up the sharp edge of a tool and making it dull or rounded. In my mind that would be more dull and would not cut .....but you clearly have shown that the bur cuts nice and clean ....something I have been missing.
I wonder if you have any thoughts or videos on how to use a bur on a scraper to cut end grain. Let's face it, most of us if not all of us beginners ...and that might mean turners who have been turning for 5 years or less....have a hard time with end grain on different woods. Try as I might, I still get tear out. I have learned that sharp tools, very small cuts can reduce tear out and almost eliminate it on some woods ....but never all the way, so I end up getting out the 80 grit and sanding the heck out of it until I get my desired result.
So I would be interested in how you deal with end grain tear out. Do you use scrapers with a bur? Do you use a gouge with special technique? I hate sanding and I come close to turning a torn out bowl into a dog dish or something to feed the raccoons! I had some spalted maple that would not behave. The tear out was terrible. I did not use any of your bur techniques on scrapers or negative rake scrapers ....I'm just entering that method of tool sharpening and use now.
Sorry for the long comment ...thanks for the videos on "burrs" ....hope you have some good news on end grain tear out.
Best Wishes,
Scott Parat
Perhaps I need to make a video focused just on torn grain inside a bowl and how to fix it. I will add that to my list.
i had the same problems and it was getting better sinds i watched mikes videos.thanks mike!
Great videos as always Mike, I’m convinced I need a negative rake scraper, what would you recommend? I’m turning bowls usually 6” or less.
Perhaps regrind an old tool. For bowls that size you could probably get by regrinding most any old 1/2" skew or scraper. Or buy a cheap benjamins best tool and regrind. Like these amzn.to/3kAPmyx
Thank you for explaining all of this to me..seems you nice ways make it easier to understand..there are a few with more experienced than you..but they come across like buttheads.. so they are hard to follow and watch..again thank you..you are a great guy too..😁👍☺️
I appreciate that very much.
Yep Mikes nice ways make trying to understand much much easier.. 👍☺️😊
Thanks Mike, great video. Btw, where can I get that very neat turning smock that you wear?
Army Combat Uniform jacket used on eBay. Get a long so it will cover your pants pockets.
Mike, very nice video, thank you. The RoboRest looks very interesting. How do you like it and is there any play in it?
A bit but not enough to cause me any problems. I know Doug Thompson uses one.
Mike Peace Woodturning thanks
hello mike, thank you for sharing all this! what would you advice the direction of the wheels of the sharpening machine should be? the whells turning towards or away from the person? from up to down or down to up? thank you :) enjoy playing more!!
Either way can raise a burr. I just use the grinder and platform in the normal way with the wheel turning toward you from the top.
@@MikePeaceWoodturning thank you
Thanks Mike, good lesson. Makes me want to experiment a little. I'm still having a devil of a time trying to use a scraper as a shear scraper. The project is almost done and I want to see if I can get that glass finish so I don't have to sand too much, I pull out my scraper, hold it at about a 45 degree trying to keep the slicing in the middle of the blade, it looks like its starting to work and then .....WHACK......my nice 12" bowl is now going to be 11" cause I gouged out a good 3/4" .....happens all the time. Guess I'm gonna have to practice more because .....I'm not gonna let this beat me :) I was using a skew chisel, thinking about getting a negative rake scraper, an oval one......got any recommendations.
Thanks again....very good video. I also picked up some tips on "the burr" I haven't been paying much attention to the burr, but I guess I must. If you have any specific videos on what tools to use and how to make a burr and how to use it properly.....would be much appreciated.
Godbless and take care my friend!
Scott
I know you're probably really busy but I started a facebook group for woodturning, I would be honored if you stopped by and shared some of your wisdom. It's at facebook.com/woodturningbasics
Sorry to be babbling on....but I can't remember if I told you that I made a scraper from the tutorial you did on using HSS 8mm x 8mm x 200mm steel bars. I can't tell you how many times I used it, one of my favorite tools I show off :) Gonna try to make a beading tool out of one of them. Then I thought about putting a different edge on each side and using set screws ...but I'm pretty lazy so I'll probably keep epoxying the tool into the handle. Not sure why, but I really love making tools, I guess first of all its cheap.... but there's a deep sense of satisfaction when using the tools you make, then there's the fact that I've been very ill and have no money and can't buy 100 dollar tools, 3 or 4 bucks for a tool I can use is very helpful.
There is one school of thought that says buy the best you can afford, but you can get some pretty inexpensive Benjamin Best scrapers and grind any profile you want. Or buy that blank I used in my square scraper video. Unless you are a production turner, I think this is an area to save some money, especially if you find yourself using it quite a bit less than your main tools like spindle and bowl gouges. Look at the Craft Supply catalog at the different profiles.
Nice blog and FB page.
Robbie from Dublin, Ireland swears by the negative rake. Have not heard from him from some time
I miss him. He did some great videos. He did not reply to messages so I suspect the worse.
Only bought my first lathe a few months ago. My father stopped turning two years ago when he reached 80. As you see, I do not live back in the home country anymore, but I will message my father about Robbie. He did a post last year or late 2016, but no new vids
Only got 3 old chisels from my dad, but my friend is bringing me a few new ones from Europe next month. Also intend to make a few detail ones like you showed from 6mm HSS
What tool did you use to make the burr with. I'm referring to the small round one from the dremel tool and the larger piece of carbide. I'm new to this and I'm finding that I've purchased tools that aren't what I will use. Thank You, great demonstration.
I cover that here czcams.com/video/FAGXHpnrkcA/video.html
Thank You, I appreciate the information concerning where to find the round carbide rod. Great site for newbies like me.
Once again, great video! With a background of advanced geometry, trigonometry and calculus I'll be darned that I am uncertain if I am physically measuring correctly the top and bottom bevels required for a negative rake scraper with an adjustable protractor. Could you show us how?
Also do you think in addition to the suggested bevel angles in your chart other bevel angles might be appropriate for an epoxy/wood bowl (the epoxy is quite brittle relative to the wood)?
Great idea! I will cover in a future scraper or sharpening video.
Came back to this video years after seeing it and I'm having a hard time getting a bur on by big robert sorby 25° top, 70° bottom. Did you land on your favorite NRS included angle?
No magic angles. Each of my scraper is different but for no good reason. Sounds like you have an included angle of 95 degrees. Try making it less than 90.
Mike, would I be correct in saying that the quality of the cut (scrape) results from the proper angle between the top edge (surface) of the tool and the face of the work piece? So for a regular scraper you have to raise the handle to get the proper angle, and with a negative rake tool the handle can be flat to achieve the best cutting angle. But what about the angle between the top and bottom surfaces? If a standard scraper is flat on top and the bevel angle is 70 degrees. Then you grind the top surface to 30 degrees. Now the cutting angle has changed. So is the better result due to the new cutting angle?Have you done anything on negative rake scrapers for GWA?
I have not done anything with scrapers at GWA. I did a workshop at Chattahoochee WT. Part of the equation is the burr creation. Part is the angle, part is shear scape and parts I am sure I don't know. You just need to take the concepts and practice with them till you find what works for you. New video on specialty scrapers tomorrow.
I subscribed :) Though I had done so before
Thanks for your support.
Well heck, you are welcome. Don't forget to sub back. I have a really good thien baffle separator. Way more efficient (99.99%) than some of the youtube bigshots vids.
Like to know where the comparison chart came from.
Thanks Jon Grace
They are the angles reported used by the named turners.
Mike: I’m having trouble getting the bottom inside of my boxes flat. What tool should I be using? Thanks for any advice.
A box scraper with the left corner relieved and the angle at the corner lesss than 90 deg so when you scrape the corner you scrape bottom at same time and visa versa. I don't use one like this because I generally prefer a box design with a rounded bottom and round inside corners to make it easier to reach in and scoop things out. The exception would be something like a kitchen cannister or pencil pot.
Mike Peace Woodturning Thanks so much. I’ll try it out flat and curved.
Mike Peace Woodturning: Ok. Checked them out on the web. No wonder I was having trouble. I was using the wrong tool.
I am having trouble finding a large negative rake scraper. Do you know where to fine one.
Not sure where you live but you can order them from most woodturning vendors. My two larger ones you can buy from Amazon with a link in the show notes. You just need to regrind to a negative rake. Or watch my video on making a scraper and grind a negative rake. Good luck.
Where do you get the robo rest? and where would I buy a negative rake scraper
Robo does not make them anymore but I heard someone else was planning to. You can buy from most any woodturning vendor here in the USA. Or take any scraper and convert it to NRS which is what I did. I have never bought one.
mike is there a width you prefer on your scraper,,your go to scraper I guess you would call it
I get a lot of use out of my 5/8" wide HF scraper. But I have some larger Benjamin Bests ground as negative rake.
I noticed that your scrapers all seem to be designed for the inside of bowls, excluding the simple round nose shown in this video of course. Do you use a different shape scraper on the outside or perhaps another tool altogether? I assume the cutting edge would be on the right side instead of the left.
Gil, back up to the earlier video of shear scraping where I demonstrate using my 1" spear point for shear scraping on the outside of a bowl left or right. I will show specialty scrapers in a video next Fri.
Would it do any good to put a negative rake on a bedan?
I don't think so. If you do both sides you have a wide parting tool like the one I did a video on but I don't see any advantage to that if you mostly use it as a wide parting tool.. I don't use a bedan so am no bedan experts.
Would i be right in think you have basically changed a scraper into a skew (which is what you kept calling it)?
Not exactly. A skew is typically sharpened at an include angle of 40 degrees with an equal bevel. A NRS does not require the same bevel angle on each side and it can be greather than 40 degres and is typically curved.
And where did you get your diamond stone?
I use CBN wheels not diamond which has problems with HSS tools.
Im an ex mechanic who loves to hobby all kinds of stuff, and i have done a few nice projects, But when i look at the infinite number of chisels and how to use each one accurately, Ugg.
My son majored in music education adn can play any instrument. This is not that hard. Rip a 24 into 10" long squares and enjoy the journey starting with the roughing gouge and spindle gouge. Better yet take a class and it will be easy. You can do it.😀
Mike Peace Woodturning, I'm well past ripping my first cut, i'm getting into resin casting into wood carvings now, But as a well accomplished mechanic, i like mastering my talents well past my capacity, I'm always striving to do what others can't, but aging bones are fighting me.
I hear ya. Picking things off the floor gets harder all of the time.
What is the burnishing tool
A steel rod harder than the tool it is raising a burr on. Here is my video on making one czcams.com/video/FAGXHpnrkcA/video.html
@@MikePeaceWoodturning thanks Mike I found your other video talking about the bits you bought on ebay
J
Just lower the tool rest a tad and use a regular scraper.
More than one way to scrape I think. Thanks for sharing yours.
Using any negative rake scraper other than flat is not a good idea. In that position, you would not have the advantage of using ALL of the surface of the scraper.
Ciao Mike grazie di condividere spesso con noi la tua esperienza della tornitura del legno, ho notato che hai affilato con molta maestria un raschio, vorrei sapere il pianetto della mola a quanti gradi era impostato per replicare una affilatura dell'utensile per una affilatura perfetta. Grazie
The included angle is about 60 degrees