Is Deceive Inc. just a bad Call of Duty clone?
Vložit
- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- There is a strong prevailing opinion in the wild that Deceive is just a poorly implemented FPS game with the stealth mechanics in the game having little to no substance. In this video I dissect this argument and look at how true that is.
Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
0:48 - Evidence from Reddit
1:24 - Are top level players only good at mechanics?
4:00 - Player counts and skill-based matchmaking
10:36 - Stealth in high level play
11:35 - Example Deceive Game
19:18 - The difficulty of improving in Deceive
21:45 - Conclusion
GooseWhoGames - / goosewhogames
JaceHammer - / jacehammer
FullmetalCroak's Deceive Inc Guide: • How To MASTER Deceive ...
Check out the information for the Chavez Cup here: / discord
If you enjoyed this video follow me on twitch, I stream fairly regularly:
/ seaal
Join the discord! / discord
I'm also on twitter! Follow for more personal stuff, stream highlights and stream schedules :)
/ _seaal_
#deceiveinc #discussion - Hry
Jacehammer here. I basically completely agree with everything you've said.
Stealth is probably the single most important aspect in the game, and it's what separates good players from great players. If you are average at the FPS aspects, but great at stealth and awareness, your winrate will likely be significantly better than someone who solely is a good fps player. Who surprises who is the biggest single factor that wins fights. The FPS aspects can sometimes turn the tables, but more often than not can only make a fight close, not win it for you.
Virtually every single time I've beaten someone who I perceive as significantly better than me, it's because I had the drop on them in solos, or my team did in duos or trios.
I also wanted to say that people like myself, GooseWhoGames, and Seaal are very much interested in the health of the game, and for that matter are always open to chat.
The streamers and ither content creators who play Deceive are generally more than happy to tell you how they knew you were an agent, or how they knew where you were. We're one of the best streaming communities in my opinion, and we will share what we know. You should come visit. We want you to have fun just like we do.
more videos like this please
In my humble opinion from the sidelines, Deceive's problem lies in how the stealth is designed. Stealth does reward players, and the concept is very fun on paper; but centering the bulk of it around how well a player can move like an NPC (not even what they do, but every minute movement detail) for extended periods of time - is a pretty bold decision that I am not surprised has not 'caught on' with the masses, no matter how much time passes.
IMO, the different NPC behaviors already provide sufficient complexity that they should lean into players learning about and mimicking their disguise's behavior, rather than asking them to learn that and every meticulous movement tip. With that change in focus, if a player does not behave correctly and is punished for it, the game could offer tips on how the NPC they were disguised as should behave to improve, whereas it's kinda a nebulous 'get good' right now.
I think you make a very valid point about how it isn't easy to learn stealth well because of how meticulous you need to be and how hard it is to translate what you are doing from your own first person view to what your disguise is doing, hence why wiggle walking is so common amongst newer players. I do agree that making the movement stuff a little more forgiving would probably help quite a lot
pretty hard agree with everything said here. having information is something that gives you options/decisions in team modes, and helps you limit opponents options. scouting and gathering information, particularly without any information expertise/passives, requires really good stealth against good players or you run a decent risk of getting picked off and dragging down your team.
i can understand someone getting frustrated that it feels like they were being stealthy and they still died (happens to everyone whose played the game), but the reality is something tipped off the other players. this is part of the reason why i do wish there was in-game or post game chat with other teams. especially when i was starting to play. there were plenty of times i wanted to ask the other person how they knew i was a player. conversely, i've trailed someone for over a minute after i saw them open a safe, hoping they would lead me back to their team so i could tell my team all this info. i can only imagine how lost they felt when they were trying to be stealthy thirty seconds later, only to get team wiped out of the blue. i can't think of any simple ways to 'solve' this issue, or provide tools that aren't complex for the developers to make (replays!), which is part of the tough learning curve of the game.
I’ve GOT to use Squire’s e3. It looks useful for someone who gets jumped all the time
I love Danger Sense! It's my go to expertise on Squire. It has a bit of a learning curve but is very strong when you get used to it
These videos are making me want to play the game
I didn't even know people were still playing it, it's such a cool unique idea
I think redditors are just insufferable no matter the game theyre playing.
Based and True Vid
It's not cod but it's definitely not a stealth game either. Especially in teams lol. Of course no one is going to be an idiot and start shooting everything like when heat wasn't a thing but the design philosophy is combat oriented with the only characters who use stealth being Octo (excluding E3) and Cav
I disagree. Duos and Trios definitely are less stealthy, it's hard to argue against that, but being able to make stealthy plays as a team and having the awareness to pick out players is what wins games. Your aim and skills in combat matter, but in most situations who has the drop on who correlates to who wins a solo or team fight.
"if you were to make changes to make stealth more prevalent and stronger relative to aggression these players would adapt and be the best player in the game"
Huh... you don't say?
I'll give you this much, the reddit posts (and the Discord ones too) for giving the game hardcore modes etc. are dumb as sh!t (youtube filter lol) because most of them just want to make Deceive Inc. into AC multiplayer if not worse and the same people who want a hardcore mode would probably quit after they got said mode but still got regularly killed in those lobbies, but even the gameplay you show proves the point of how unstealthy the top players in this game act, jumping like monkeys, running everywhere, stealth in this game got progressively easier because the newbies kept crying that pressing A and D mid walk was TOO HARD to the point where now you'll just gain heat because you shot someone who was acting more suspicious than a hummingbird on crack so newbies still die and good players can get away with blending in badly (because that's how current NPCs act). The game always rewards kills, matches tend to end in deathmatches; specially prevalent in duos and trios where the game might actually just be called CoD with social stealth (that can also be blamed on how easy it is to rush in this game, which is why people die so quick).
Also at 19:20 no shot you actually said the guy did nothing wrong, that's just... wow, are you reading a script and got the wrong video?
I'm not even going to mention how stupid in concept the shield and mat are for this game or how poor the original agent kit design is because most of them have utility in combat, way to ruin the stealth theme gays :]
It's hard to respond to anything you've written because you either don't explain any reasoning (you literally say 'I'm not even going to mention how stupid') or you're simply throwing insults with again no actual constructive criticism.
You seem to think you've made a point to begin with. The 'huh you don't say' obviously reads as sarcasm but it's clearly explained that the reason for that sentence is because there are many complaints that seemingly don't understand that concept. So I'm not sure what your problem is. I guess it's obvious to you? but you seem to disregard the fact that it's seemingly not obvious to everyone? But that's not Seaal's fault either. He's explaining to the people that don't know. So I guess it's...a sarcastic remark for trying to explain something to newbies? odd behavior.
You call hardcore modes dumb with no explanation or alternative.
You call certain gadgets stupid with no explanation or alternative.
I think the crux of the argument lies with this line 'but even the gameplay you show proves the point of how unstealthily the top players in this game act, jumping like monkeys, running everywhere'. Honestly you'd have been much better off just writing this line because to a certain point I agree.
Like with the first example with Squire gameplay using Danger sense, Seaal mentions that he's not being aggressive, he's simply walking around seeing where players are. I personally would argue that it could be considered an aggressive play, you're not active shooting anyone, but you're actively trying to find other players almost as quickly as you can. You certainly have the choice not to engage, which he doesn't and I think strengthens his point, but it's a play that leads you to the opportunity for aggression. Trying to find players quickly, will invariably lead to a more aggressive game in my opinion.
But I do think it's an excellent example of how good players reach these flash points and how they treat them. They use the tools available to find these decision points to be aggressive or not, and then how they make the decision whether or not to be aggressive.
People think they're just flatly more aggro, but I think what Seaal is trying to highlight is that good players are better at 1. finding players, and 2. Making better decisions of WHEN to fight. I think the appearance of being much more aggressive, is a symptom of these, particularly the first one. It would be interesting to see the game when there are simply way less tools to identify people. Things like the Cav expertise was a big problem for this reason, it gave good players an S-tier ability to find people. And then they could take their time until the fight was very favorable. If the only way to find players, was someone making a 'mistake' and jumping around then I feel like, even with good players, the fights would decrease pretty substantially. They would still be really good when fights break out, but limiting the ability of a good player to find others in compromised positions seems key to me if your aim is to lower the overall aggressiveness of the gameplay.
I do personally think there are other problems, even ones you've tried to highlight. But I do actually think Seaal is correct in that, if the game just grew in size, and matchmaking was implemented so that people with vastly different skill levels didn't run into each other so often, and you mostly played with people on your level, it would naturally solve a lot of these issues. Obviously however, that's not easy to do.
I will add to this that stealth is just another tool in the box for the game and, in my opinion at least, I don't think the game would be particularly fun if stealth was the only real way to play. I think for some people, they only think stealth is valid if you are literally forced to spend 20 minutes walking around the map and are immediately punished when doing something unstealthy. I'm a game sense player and I have better game sense than most, so the only times I am running or jumping in the game are times where I am confident enough that I know there are no players near me and I can use that confidence to be more efficient when I'm moving around the map. I find it a lot more interesting to make calculated risks like this than if I would be forced to walk all the time.
I don't think moving in this way at all discredits the point of the example game that shows that stealth plays blatantly do have value.
@@Seaal_ Agreed, I wouldn't enjoy the game if it was too stealthy either.
And the idea of what constitutes stealthy play is so nuanced to the tools available. As Seaal says, if he has danger sense and uses it to know there are no players nearby to a high level of certainty (there could be people on other floors that could see him potentially) then running and even jumping is...fine? As soon as you get an indication you're near players, if you then start to blend in, you're participating in the stealth component.
When I get caught out by players better than me, and I've played most of them too, albeit I'm not as good as Seaal, I don't see them running at me across the level and then they just out click me. I find they shoot me from behind and I didn't even know it was a player, they were being stealthy. I don't disagree that there *are* players that will just flatly run and jump around and just look for fights. But actually the best players also beat them. You do actually have to consider and take advantage of both the stealth and the FPS portions of the gameplay if you want to play the best people.
And there in lies the problem Seaal is talking about. What if you don't want to play the best people? which is totally understandable, honestly I don't always either. I want a play experience that is challenging but not 'If we run into X I auto lose'. Unfortunately because of the player base, and the matchmaking, you're forced to sometimes. That's what sucks, and that's why he's suggesting it's the only real solution.
@@Panjax i didn't expect someone to write a bigger wall of text than me, wowza