The Egalitarian "Silver Bullet" Bible Verse: Women in Ministry part 7
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2022
- Did you know that there is an egalitarian “silver bullet” Bible verse?
Many egalitarians (who hold that women can rightly be elders, or any other position in the church) see Galatians 3:28 as such a powerful and wide-sweeping statement that it overrules any interpretation of any other passage in the Bible that would restrict roles of women in any fashion.
In my own experience, every egalitarian knows about this but many complementarians do not.
In this video, part 7 of my Women in Ministry series, I’ll be doing a detailed analysis of egalitarian scholar, Cynthia Long Westfall’s case for why Galatians 3:28 is such a pivotal passage for understanding women’s roles and for proving that complementarian views are fundamentally wrong.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Galatians 3:28
After years of being a bit confused about the topic of women in ministry I set out to spend months researching the topic in great detail to produce this exhaustive teaching series on the topic.
CLICK HERE for the playlist of ALL the videos in this series (more will be added as I make them). • Why We Can't Think Bib...
You can also find more videos freely available on my website:
BibleThinker.org
Resources you may be interested in.
My notes from today. biblethinker.org/wp-content/u...
Discovering Biblical Equality is the most updated work from a slew of egalitarian scholars. While I thoroughly disagree with it in a somewhat continual manner, it's a good resource for cutting edge egalitarian scholarship. The publisher, IVP was kind enough to send me an advanced copy when I first started this research project. www.ivpress.com/discovering-b...
Ben Witherington's 1981 paper, "Rite and RIghts for Women" doi.org/10.1017/S002868850000...
My video on the Hebrew Roots movement in regards to Acts (this relates to my claim that Jews and Gentiles did indeed have differences in the church in some ways) • Does Acts Teach Us to ...
My video on what the Bible teaches about slavery • SLAVERY and the BIBLE!...
I have other references and data in my notes from this series, which you can freely have through my website BibleThinker.org
Sorry about the audio sync issue. I’ll see if I can figure that out before Friday.
Luckily for me I often listen like a podcast so it's no difference🤣
My church uses the excuse of Acts 2:17 God will poor His spirit on everyone and son and "daughters" will Prophesy.....as if prophesy means Pastor. Smh aside from what ur silver bullet is this is 2nd that I've heard of popularly. Smh
I noticed it but it wasn’t too distracting! Thank you so much for wanting to be faithful to the text in Interpretation and Application!
@@bekkahboodles I've seen a lot of so called churches I've seen women's act like they're crazy like they're demon possessed the way they're yelling and acting I can tell you one thing that is not of my God That kind of scares me when I see the women's acting like that I tell my wife thank God that I don't go to a church like that And believe me that's not the church of Christ Jesus Remember the woman was deceived 1st By that serpent
@@samaelmartinus3273 but will they prophecy while remaining silent?
“It’s not about you.” It’s about service, not a dream to be fulfilled. It’s about the Lord & serving Him not ourselves. So good. Thank you!
No you are exactly right it's not about me it's all about Jesus the Son of God It's about everything he did in the gospel of John But the way you started your comment doesn't seem like you know him you should get to know him he loves you he will teach you so that you will not have to go to college it's better for the Holy Spirit to teach you Instead of a man So that you could share the word of God would love Like you said in the beginning it's not about me but I will tell you what it's about revelation chapter 20 verse 15 I am a soldier of the cross a messenger of God with the full armor of God God God-bless you through your journey to find the truth because the truth shall set you free I would like to say one more thing the truth comes from Jesus not man Also it's not a dream it's real hes coming
@@joeseczulaica3053 You do know that before Daniel had his visions and revelations he read and studied the prophesies, right? And before Paul/Saul could begin his ministry he was tutored by the leading biblical authority of the day and then, after seeing the Lord on the road he had to receive his education from the other apostles and then he gained understanding from the Holy Spirit as well. The other apostles received their biblical education as all Jewish boys did and then they had three years of teaching from the Lord and after the resurrection they had intense training from him until he was taken up in the clouds. THEN they were ready to begin their preaching careers from Pentecost on.
A good education is important.
@@stephenszucs8439 So I guess you don't like it because I come against Going to school To know who God is or should I say Jesus I know what God thinks about education I don't trust man to teach me anything about who Jesus is I know who Jesus is hes the Son of God I know what Jesus did for me for the Sin of the world I am not saying or telling people not to go to school or college to know God I'm talking about myself If I can just pray and ask got to lead me to some lost siner and know what Jesus did for me and share that with love that's good enough for God Let me ask you something sir what happens you go to school to know what Jesus did it and you die all of a sudden you never had an opportunity to tell anybody about Jesus Because someone told you to go to school to know God it takes a year 8 weeks never had a chance to be a witness You know I love to read the gospel of John that tells it all right there What Jesus 1st ministry was I also Know what John Chapter 3 verse 16 John Chapter 14 verse 6 And here's a warning for you revelation chapter 20 verse 15 You sir do not know when you gonna leave this Earth so if I was you I would teach that scripture because God is not playing around One more thing man didn't teach me those scriptures I didn't have to go to school to know those scriptures the Holy Spirit taught me those scriptures And I'm really talking about the word of God
@@stephenszucs8439 Oh I forgot to tell you how about Nicodemus he was a teacher but didn't know about being born again
@@joeseczulaica3053 He was a ruler. A Pharisee. The Pharisees had a long tradition of tradition. That is, they were so steeped in the laws, and more importantly, the so-called laws that they added, that they had lost the ability to see what was right in front of them.
When I say education matters, it also matters from whom one receives that education. The fact there were and still are heretical schools does not mean education is wrong. It means you need to choose your teachers very carefully.
Mike, you've now converted me on both women in ministry and the death penalty. I think it drives my liberal friends nuts that I keep drifting towards the conservative views on these controversial issues. But the Bible seems clear
Mike is in favor of the death penalty and has Biblical evidence it???!!! Link please.
Yes the Bible is a biblical conservative book that does not conform to any political viewpoint, they need to conform To the bible.
We are not fighting flesh and blood. But spiritual wickedness in which we use to walk in. Remember in the The Book Of John chapter 3 verse 1 to 22 particularly verse 3to 2. What Jesus said. I remember when the disciples was boasting about carsting out demons. Jesus corrected them saying they should be just greatful that there name written in the book of life. We have to remember that the unsaved are in need of Jesus forgiveness of sin. That's how we should use prayerfully this study.
We’re always on firm ground when we go with the Bible what it really says in context. So glad you are willing to let the scripture inform your thinking and beliefs. To GOD be the glory in all things.
@@observerobserver6040 Really bad syntactical posting Observer....I wish you had edited you remarks for clarity and polish.....
Whoever put “one verse to rule them all” killed me 🤣thanks for keeping a challenging topic fun
That would be our brother @KL 👏🏻🤣
One verse to bring them all and, in the darkness, bind them…
Sounds like patriarchy or something to me. Oh, wait. This is the Egalitarians we are talking about, not the Complementarians
Megan Glenn that was funny.....
I loled so hard 😂
What movie is that from?
"You keep using that verse.... I do not think that verse means, what you think that verse means."
Thanks for this series Mike!
You have done such fantastic work with faithful diligence in this study.
"You keep using that verse..." What verse are you referring to?
@@lesliewells1062 the princess bride......
@@larrybarnett5799 The princess bride? The movie? I really don't know what you are talking about!! I've seen the movie, but what does it have t do with anything about this?
@@lesliewells1062 Yes. the movie..
I think it gives an example of how Christians can approach one scripture, and use it like it was written for that hyper focused situation...and it most of the time it wasn't meant for that. I believe that when we approach scripture we should start with the basics. what book? who is the Author, who was the audience, who was the author addressing, what year was it written.
I think we should realize the bible wasn't written to us. but written for us...
I hope that helps. we should read an entire chapter, not just one verse. for context. Hope this helps. if not, i apologize...
@@larrybarnett5799 I definitely agree we need to study the Bible in context, not take isolated verses and apply them in ways they were never meant to be applied. As far as The Princess Bride, I haven't seen it in quite a while and have no idea what the connection is. But it sounds like we agree that context is super important!!
I have to say that I love the fact that you studied the Bible to find the truth and not to uphold your own point of view. Too many people make the Bible sound as if it supports their own view.
If you listen to his first video in this series he goes into that specifically. It is arguably my favorite video of the series because it has shown me how easy it is to fall into that.
Mike tends to cover viewpoints, which he then dismantles, rather than study deeply those passages for himself.
It's a Bible study principle to interpret the problematic, vague, and troublesome passages with the clear passages.
The majority of the passages related to the body, gifts of the spirit, and leadership positions are gender-inclusive.
The problem passages are few, to which their interpretation needs to be weighted with the clear passages. The problem passages also have issues that keep them from being interpreted in such a straightforward way.
You can make a case for an egalitarian view, when you look at the structure of Paul's writing in 1 Cor. 14 and the cultural context and differences inherent in the verses in 1 Tim. 2.
These issues are NOT theological, but biblical in matter. Therefore, theological perspectives don't get to the heart of the matter, but only make things more complex.
It's like how the Jews throughout the centuries having debates about the talmud, rather than going to the old testament directly for themselves. In other words, they debate over the commentaries that people share about the Scripture rather than what's actually in the Scripture.
I have yet to see Mike effectively deal with this "whole counsel of God" dynamic, through a careful Bible study of the passages themselves.
Either is problematic...
Amen! Please say a prayer for me. I have been really trying to understand this. And overcome the world.
@@StrangeDays25 Father You are so good and You promise help to all those who seek You and want to obey Your Word. Help this dear brother or sister in Christ, help us all to understand Your Word and to obey it fully in a manner pleasing to you in Jesus Name. Amen.
I'm so thankful I can trust the Bible to mean what it says. Egalitarian arguments constantly make one feel that it is impossible to understand what Scripture says without a degree in ancient near eastern history and culture, when the Bible was written to be a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. Thank you, Mike, for treating this subject with integrity. God bless you in your work!
Alice, I too am thankful that I can trust the Bible to mean what it says and I'm an Egalitarian. We're not all out there just cramming scripture to fit our viewpoints or intentionally trying to confuse issues although some of us are as in every group they are.
YES! Well said. Thank you. I totally agree! I have had egalitarians actually tell me that out loud, regarding women in ministry, when I said we needed to do in-depth study to see what the Bible really tells us about it before knowing how we should address this topic -- they said sure, we need to look at what the Bible says, but we aren't going to find answers there, because we can't really understand what the Bible says about this, given our lack of understanding of the ancient culture, and how different it was from our own. Wait, what?
I'm so thankful I can trust the Bible to mean what it says. YES. So thankful.
@Prey R And yet, the New Testament reveals the significance of some of the OT's most crucial elements. While we as Gentiles may not have lived in the Jewish culture, Christ and the apostles gave us a great deal of insight into the nature of the law, faith being counted as righteousness even before the coming of Christ's ministry, and the significance of the sacrifices made by Israel in accordance to their traditions given to them by Moses from the Lord.
@@chriscoon801
Yet you do force your worldly and anachronistic cultural view on scripture. You might say that you don’t, but if you claim there is no role distinction between men and women, it is objective proof that you do. Scripture does not support that idea and outright rejects it. The only way to read egalitarian ideas from scripture is to either not read scripture and just make it up, or to allow your mind to be compromised by social pressures while interpreting scripture.
@@kolbywilliams7234, wow! You know the state of my salvation? I didn't know you were God! So because I'm Egalitarian, and yes, I've studied the scriptures for let's see now 43 years, I'm unsaved and worldly?
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻Thank you for your definition of feminism. I am so proud of my daughter-in-love who is at home raising 3 beautiful little ones full time. She works harder than any person I know and no amount of money can adequately compensate for what she does day after day. I am blessed to have her as the mother of my grandchildren.
When women complain they can’t be elders in the church they are forgetting their incredibly important and influential role raising up the next generation to be GOD fearing to love the LORD their GOD with all their heart mind soul and strength. A mother’s place cannot be substituted it is essential.
@@DaysofElijah317 True we men can raise a skyscraper or even a pyramid but after so many thousand of years they shall perish but, raising a child in Christ is eternal.
As a homemaker, I've always felt pride when I tell people.
Before this series, I would have considered myself an uneasy, largely unexamined egalitarian. But in recent years, I have become increasingly doubtful about the scriptural justification for this view. Westfall’s closing comment about power dynamics confirmed a growing suspicion that I have had: that much of egalitarianism is philosophically rooted in Critical Theory and its perverse fixation with group identity and power. The last couple of years have made clearer to me how deeply this poison has been absorbed into the American Evangelical church, including its colleges, universities, and seminaries.
👍
We're at the point now that the political left doesn't even want anthropologists to identify the sex of bones in fear we misgender an ancient person.
Power dynamics are everywhere in the New Testament but the Western Church by and large cannot stand it (especially Americans steeped in a hyper-individualism).
Yes that is terrible! Instilling ideas in people;s heads that all human beings are equal
@@debrawehrly6900 all human beings have equal intrinsic value; that is not under challenge in this discussion.
Years ago, I stumbled on a feminist website where she claimed, with much twisting in Hebrew linguistics, that God created women to be stronger than men, ignoring that Eve was deceived first.
The other issue is if one needs to use eight hours to defend egalitarianism, that proves to me too much digging was used to defend what the Word of God clearly states against.
Really outstanding series. Keep up the good work. I can be a bit lazy but I honestly think you are the only youtuber that if you ever got banned I would follow you on a different platform. Solid biblical teaching without the ego. With a heart that is willing to submit to Scripture wherever it goes.
Here's a question on the choir analogy. Yes, we are all in the choir (and yes, all Christians are in Christ) BUT, don't people in a choir have different roles/responsibilities? Basses don't sing soprano; you often will have soloists… which… by definition… do something that the others are not doing. So… I think the choir analogy might actually be a good analogy. For complementarians… not egalitarians.
That's exactly what I was going to comment too. Imagine a choir without complementary roles! Well, that's what they do in kindergarten. Maybe a single melody could bring somebody to tears, but it's most likely gonna be a beautiful harmony!
I totally agree here too. The choir analogy falls short for those of us who have sung in one.
When we work for a company we also have different roles.
There is also a choir director…which a choir would be a mess without a director….
Precisely. Even the analogies don't actually support the claim.
54:30.
I love Mike.
I never agree that my role as wife/mother/educator is "lesser" but I can't deny that I often encounter that prejudice.
I encountered that from my own husband at times. We agreed that we wanted to be a couple where the husband works and the wife stays home, but after getting married he felt ashamed and embarrassed that I wasn’t working like all of his friends significant others. Eventually, he decided I should find a job and work until we have kids and then I’ll be allowed to be a housewife. It’s been very frustrating.
@Deborah Faith Thompson It's revealed in the word and it is NOT based on your ridiculous "feelings". It is plain, stop reaching and twisting. Sick.
Isn't it crazy how society wants adults to be decent, contributing members of society and then look down on the main person--along with dads and teachers--who are tasked with making that happen?
@@IceyFireSpiritDragon thank you for sharing. I’m not a stay at home mom, although my wife is. It’s hard for me to encourage her to think outside the box and have a side hustle or job. She’s so talented and believes it’s impossible to raise our son and find a job and work. On top of my supposedly telling her early on she’s never to work a day in her life because I’ll provide”. As an entrepreneur myself I hustle and grind and try not to make excuses for myself because in the end a lot is on my shoulders. I’m not looking for my spouse to hold weight although in some other marriages that might be the case. I’d like to have for funds for a number of reasons; get out of debt faster have more money to invest and sow into others/ministries. We are seeing other spouses work whether they have a babysitter or not and work from home. My wife does want her focus to be on our son and I want to respect that choice. Her small business has potential to be automated” where she doesn’t have to do all the work... which is why I press her sometimes to pursue her goals or dreams. My mother had a choice to work or not she choice to because of a nicer lifestyle she wanted to live. We all have ideas of nicer but are we doing anything to get there or just trying to shake a magic money tree in the back yard. I’m not saying all of this to condemn or judge you in any way. I pray you and you family would be blessed and encouraged... maybe some feedback would be great. How are other spouses copping with this area. In recent studies” it appears a man is supposed to be the main channel for income. As the verse says “if a man doesn’t take care of his home he’s worse than an unbeliever.” A little paraphrasing there. But this verse has been said to me before... in the context of this studies mike is doing the thoughts of the proverbs 31 woman and how she sold goods”. How does that relate with the woman of today’s culture where they are ceos and calling many shots for their companies. Whereas in a marriage some people would see the spouses working together but the husband is more of a ceo and the wife a manager where he has a final say. I appreciate my wives discernment immensely and count on her in many scenarios we face together in life. Apart from that very long comment, do you feel compelled or drawn to work, or forced to? This is a great discussion I hope it doesn’t get taken the wrong way🙏🏼
@Deborah Faith Thompson I read your comment and thought was an I reading this correctly. It seemed a bit grey like is she leaning towards complementarian or egalitarian because of your background. At the end I hope you follow the word and your husband. We from time to time want to follow our hearts but are they trustworthy according to scripture. I don’t think you’re sick I’m sure you and your spouse are kicking butt and rocking and rolling Holy Ghost fire style!
Thanks, Mike for these teachings! They are so well done and exhaustive! I had a lucrative job as a physical therapist and felt led to stay home to raise and homeschool my children 24 years ago. I never looked back and enjoyed almost every minute! 😀
Did I waste my education? Maybe. But I was there for every milestone in the lives of my children. I was able to study the Bible with them at a basic level to a pretty advanced one. I know History, Grammar, Literature, Writing, and Math much better than when I did it in school. In addition I learned Latin, Logic and Church History. I never would have understood what Mike meant by a “Straw man” or “Equivocation” because it wasn’t taught to me in my schools. So I proudly share with people my status as mom and homemaker. No one else in the world could have filled that role to my own children but me.
This is exactly what so many people forget is your exalted status of raising the next generation to love the LORD, God’s blessings be upon you. Can’t wait to fellowship with you and all those who love the LORD when He returns!
Same!
Please pray for me. I'm not doing well physically and mentally. Thank you 💕
Make sure you're getting people in your church to pray for you too. 🙏
Thanks, Mike! It’s obvious (to me, anyway!) that you’ve put a great deal of time, study, thought and prayer into this series. Far more than I could have done, and I appreciate your work on this important topic. There was a time when I would have found all kinds of reasons why scripture doesn’t have different roles for men and women in ministry and family. Then I started letting scripture form my theology instead of the other way around. Praise God!
Every episode of this series just gets better and better!! Thank you! The term silver bullet is so appropriate because it seems like people are using it to shoot holes into passages of the Bible that don't line up with they want them to say! No verse in the Bible was ever meant to be used to shoot holes into other verses in the Bible!!! I find that whole that whole approach so wrong.
The metaphor one scholar used about a church choir all wearing the same robes and all doing the same thing is so off base!!! Some people in the choir sing soprano, some sing baritone, some sing bass! Are the people in the choir who get to sing solos higher in Christ than the people that don't get to sing solos? Not every person in a choir can sing a solo. On top of that, what about the rest of us the congregation that are tone-deaf and can't carry a tune in a bucket? What are we, according to her analogy?
I'm so glad you are doing this series, it is answering so many of my questions, especially after spending years in a cult that said that women were 1000 times more deceived than men because we are the only creatures God made that were not part of the original creation!! We were also told that we were lower than dogs and hogs and every other animal God created, because other females go into heat so they can have their babies, but human females can have sex anytime we want. And that we, women, are the cause of every crime that has ever been committed in the history of the world!!! You have helped me heal from being in that group for years and years, in so many ways with your ministry!! I appreciate you so much, you, and how God is using you!!
I really love your post, Leslie. Well said
@@KristiLEvans1 Thank you! God bless you!!
In the Image of God he made them. Male and Female he made them.
Robbing women of accountability is a form of dehumanization likewise. If women are capable of evil as well as good accountable to God they possess human dignity.
@@johnrockwell5834 No one in the group I was in robbed us of accountability, they just made us accountable for everything, including all the bad stuff the men did. Either extreme is wrong. Dehumanization of any human is wrong. I don't know if I follow the reasoning that being capable of evil proves we possess human dignity. I think it does prove we are human, though.
@@johnrockwell5834 no one said they didn’t - or literally any other demeaning thing. They just aren’t called to be elders or have authority over men in the corporate church.
Thanks Mike, I've been beating the drum on Galatians 3:28 for years. It has nothing to do with roles and functions but only about our standing in Christ!
Mike Winger (in the last 2 hour video): don’t worry, the next video will be much shorter
*Mike Winger drops 1 hour 53 minute video*
Love it 😂
Well...it is shorter 😂😂😂
He did say he changed how he would handle this subject.
Hi Pastor Mike! My husband and I have been roadtripping this summer and we've been listening through this series! We really appreciate your thoroughness and detail and your sources! We are currently at bible college and want to go into ministry, especially teaching and apologetics, so this topic is really important to us. We asked one of our teachers about this and he gave us a short paper on it, but it left us with many more questions, so the detailed examination is so helpful! We were recently at a Christian camp in Tennessee and there was another couple who we just met who were also listening to this series to help them figure our their future in ministry as a couple. All that to say thank you for your hard work and for providing your notes and research too! God bless!
Thank you, Pastor Mike, for doing this thorough walkthrough on this often polarizing topic! I'm not a minister, but once in a while, I get to 'cover' for my pastor when he is away. When I look at this passage, specifically Galatians 3:23-39, I can't help but think of the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants. In verse 29, the Abrahamic covenant and New Covenant merge: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3, "...and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." The Galatians passage talks about being justified by faith, as you pointed out many times. God credited righteousness to Abraham because of his faith. So then, being justified and having righteousness credited to us are Biblically linked. It means believers are credited with Jesus' righteousness, wearing it like clothing. Verse 27 alludes to this: "...for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." As such, those who 'put on' Christ by faith are justified by God. All this to say, the passage is not about Eldership but about being adopted into the family of God.
Can I just say, I'm really appreciating the switch to dark mode for your bible text! (Oh, also, the teaching was great, thanks 😉)
2 things; a detailed and well informed analysis of the topic at hand and an objective approach to it. Anyone genuinely seeking for truth will be inclined to follow through. Thanks Mike.
Dont trust in anything man says but in God and the questions are easily answered if we just know Gods Word
this is not a secret
John 6:45
says come to Him and learn from Him those are the Ones who come to Jesus
I’m
So grateful for what Father has spoken so clearly through his word and good teaching .. Thank you Mike !!
Galatians 3:28 is a well-known verse from the New Testament in the Christian Bible, and it reads as follows:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
This verse is part of a larger passage where the apostle Paul is emphasizing that all people are equal before God and that salvation is available to all who place their faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of their social status, ethnicity, or gender.
In this particular verse, Paul is emphasizing that in Christ, all distinctions that might have separated people before are no longer important. The distinctions that Paul mentions - Jew vs. Gentile, slave vs. free, male vs. female - were significant in the culture of Paul's day and would have been used to define a person's social status and place in society. However, Paul is saying that these distinctions do not matter in the eyes of God and that all believers are equal in Christ.
So, in summary, Galatians 3:28 is a powerful statement about the equality of all people before God and the unifying power of the gospel message. It reminds us that in Christ, we are all one, and that no matter what our background or circumstances might be, we can find acceptance and unity in the love of God.
ChatGPT
Her choir metaphor is actually perfect... All the members of the choir have the same status, but often there is a soloist who performs a different role than the others. Also the director usually wears the same robe. But does she really think that there is no other qualification (ie greater ability to sing, ability to direct) to perform those roles? That any one of the people in the choir robe can perform any choir role at any time? Or for that matter, a bass can move to soprano or vice versa? Lol
Brother, you have done an excellent job of analyzing and presenting this topic. It is an important piece of work. I only wish everyone had such a level headed and balanced view.
I really like this "silver bullet", because ANY scholar (and I mean all and any) that uses this, I ignore. This is because if they misuse this verse, they'll misuse others.
Exactly. Any exegetical stance that hangs its hat on one verse over all others is false.
Thank you so much...I love the beauty of talking of Sonship...Thank you for teaching us to think biblically in context...I am so grateful
this is such a fantastic channel- just found it and watched the full female in church series so far. learning so much. what a fantastic free education. such a blessing thank you!
You are so right about woman’s typical roles being treated as lesser! We do feel embarrassed! Yes, they will never say it! Even in the church! The devil loves it! Women are worn out,no time for good Bible study which means little or no Godly discernment and discipline. The devil loves it! 😓😓😓
Thank you Pastor Mike and Mods! Especially with the Bots!
My favorite so far in the series. Thank you so much for your diligent study and willingness to dig into the word in context and share brother.
I've never been egalitarian, but I've also never heard this detailed explanation of what Galatians 3:28 is actually saying! Really enjoying this series.
You still have not had it explained to you properly. Contact someone, or a denomination that is egalitarian. Mike is not telling you what we actually believe. I am Pentecostal, and I know there are MANY others who are Biblically sound and egalitarian.
@@padillas4357 Mike offers well-researched and well-argued conclusions so if you have any counter-arguments he hasn't addressed I would like to hear them.
@@lukedornon7799 The impression of a well researched and argued conclusion is what I, and others in the comments have a problem with, from the first episode. These videos are actually conflating women in ministry arguments with liberalism/ feminism that for the most part has originated in the Baby Boomer generation. Those of us growing up in Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anabaptistic, and Holiness churches find our historically older position being misrepresented. The sources used by Mike are for the most part unknown to us, and we in no way indorse or agree with them. There are plenty of scholars in the Assembly of God, the Church of God (Anderson), the Nazarene Church, the Wesleyan Church, and other holiness and Pentecostal churches that are never mentioned. We have reached out to Mike, but he still continues to use these faulty sources, except for maybe 2 or 3 that we have suggested. The official and historic positions of our denominations/ fellowships can be found on web-sites, and if you contact them, they are usually very helpful and courteous in answering questions.
This current episode is a perfect example of us being misrepresented. I can't think of a single time that this topic was attempted to be settled by a "Silver Bullet" verse. Our position is reached by taking into consideration the whole council of God. It is usually the Complementarians that use this tactic by invoking the 1 Timothy 2 passage.
@@padillas4357 I appreciate you're answer, but I still don't really see any actual counter-arguments. Do you have specific scriptural passages you believe support full egalitarianism that Mike has ignored?
@@lukedornon7799 My comment was not intended to give counter arguments, but to point out that our position is not being accurately presented. I still suggest contacting and reading materials from the aforementioned denominations/ fellowships. I will try to give you a brief and concise understanding in a following comment, but it will be on the long side.
Time-stamp, *Paraphrasing or directly quoting Mike Winger*
27:05, 28:18, 29:09 - Galatians 3, not all are male, but all will have the status of “sonship” - all will have full inheritance. All will be in Christ, fully.
27:30 - How does sonship status relate to position and submission?
32:20 - Galatians 3:6, sonship status and heir
35:58 - role
36:40, 37:06 - context of Galatians 3
37:35 - culture
SO APPRECIATE you thoroughness, depth, time and dedication to bringing both sides in a fact based manner.... and your commitment to get us "go look for ourselves"....... RARE
Just gotta tell you if really appreciate all the work you have put into this series as well as your ast Years worth of free content you put out. I’d cook and. Deliver you and your family meals for free if you’didnt live across the country. (That’s what I do well). You are using your God given gift to impact this. Scary world. Please keep doing what you do and I hope sometime I am able to reciprocate all the things you have taught me. Love 💕 and blessings to you and yours. 😃from the mountains of upstate New York Momma Lala 🌸
It seems likely that at Galatians 3:28 St Paul was simply repudiating the ‘Three Blessings’ for which devout Jewish men praised God each day; that they were made “not a gentile, not a slave, not a woman.” You’ll find references to those blessings in the Talmud (e.g. Mas. Menachoth 43b). See also: Yoel Kahn, _The Three Blessings: Boundaries, Censorship, and Identity in Jewish Liturgy_ , Oxford University Press, 2010. Pages 12-14, which make interesting reading, can be found in the Amazon listing. Simply click on the picture of the book and scroll through to pages 12-14.
I think we equate eldership with someone being morally and/or spiritually superior, and so we're bothered when we feel that certain men placed in these roles aren't as good as the women we feel should fill those roles. We have attached our value to positions.I'm starting to see that whatever role God allows me or disallows me to have doesn't make me any more/less of an heir in Christ
This is my favorite of this series...It seems so clear to me...and it is so beautiful God's way...
I think that all these split hairs over this passage that is so clear makes the creation of God bias . God made both man and female in His image, both united as one and in Christ as the Galatian verse says. Why men decide what God wants as the different role
Women , by men who fear competition, decided in history that women could not be doctors, nor layers, nor scientists , nor pilots nor anything anything that they entitled themselves to do. Fortunately great women have proven them wrong, they can do anything that men can do and, as a matter of fact they can do something that men can’t. , to give birth and to become fathers they need the women to give them this status of been fathers . The Holy Spirit enhanced and honored a woman to bring Jesus to our world, without her there would not have been an incarned Jesus. Not to allow women to become pastors violates the power of the Holy Spirit to inspire women with the preaching of the gospel and fulfill God’s Commission to go in all to the world to preach it. Men and women are equally one in Christ and can preach alike the good news of Christ as our God Savior.
Thanks Mike again for all of your content. You do a great job of teaching things that need to be taught.
Yes, it shouldn’t be debatable! How can anyone twist in their mind such a beautiful clear message in the words of our God. The message is clear, that in the eyes of God, we are loved and received with the same love, that the only thing that counts is our hearts, our souls! Jesus is God is superior, He does not judge like a human, the value of a human!! He is not bias, like humans are! It is such a beautiful verse!
That’s what happens when we allow the culture to subvert our understanding of what God says about men and women. Feminism doesn’t want women to be treated as well as men, they want to destroy the idea of what a woman is. Most of them can’t even define what a woman is lol! How could they see this message for what it is in the gospel?!
I'm about 25% into the presentation, and I want to say that our souls-- that which is eternal, and important-- are all equal in Christ, but we all have to deal with our flesh in this world. As long as we inhabit flesh, our souls are trialed by our fleshly bodies. Women and men have very distinct realities in this world, but we all have the same eternal Hope
Our eternal hope is bodily resurrection, not disembodied existence.
@@MatthewDickau Shame on you for reading your Bible!
We are spirit, not bodies. Bodies don't give us truth, Christ mind does. Judge not by appearance but judge by righteous judgment.
My yoke is easy and my burden is light.
That was a lot of information but I'm grateful that I got to hear it. It makes sense that we shouldn't use one verse to interpret all of what scripture teaches about that topic, it's so important to read the entire Bible in context! I didn't used to know that but the more I study the Bible the more I realize how important it is! I'm so grateful for a good teachings that soberly examine the word of God
Mike. Thank you for being an advocate of truth. Actual truth, in the actual...real... truthful....objective sense of the word. How frustrating it is to live in a world where words have no meaning and meanings have no purpose......😢
This is awesome and of course, in light of last week at SBC 22, very pertinent. I have been delving into this since the 70s. You are nailing truth and it reminds me, sin/lies on every level go back to Genesis 3.
What happened at SBC 22?
First of all, I really appreciate your gentleness in broaching this subject. I have never thought of this until recently. This is a long comment and just asking for some thoughts.
I'm in an interesting situation. I've been asked to speak multiple times to our church congregation in the four years I've worked here as the music director. Everyone was super receptive and encouraging. I would always struggle with pride or insecurity of not knowing enough but the Lord always gave me a word that I believed was an encouragement to his people. I really didn't want to speak because I knew the responsibility was great and so when I was asked to speak more recently, I jokingly looked up a CZcams video affirming the verses on women not being allowed to speak or having authority over men. I showed it to my pastor and he immediately disregarded it and mentioned how his dad never allowed women to speak to the congregation until he felt the Lord had given him a revelation about it being okay. I was given Galatians and the examples of Deborah and Mary of Magdella as well as "your sons and daughters will prophecy". My pastor also stated that he was giving me the green light to speak, giving me authority to operate in this gift of teaching. (I never waned to call it preaching).
Last year I was asked to be on the board which came with the title "elder". Something I pushed back on but agreed to with the encouragement of my pastors and my mom who also leans towards complimentarians. Over this last year I have more seriously been looking at the role of women within the body of Christ and I feel like I'm strongly leaning towards "soft" complimentarian as you say. The thing is, in my local church, I'm not being silenced or told I can't speak. I'm being told I should exercise my gift and speak to the main congregation. I've had a few conversations with my pastor and I can see where he is coming from but I'm wrestling with my own feelings about it. How do I honor my pastor but also stay true to what I believe the scripture says about this?
On a similar note, I'm the worship "pastor"(I say leader). They have asked what the difference was between me singing God's truths in the main congregation versus speaking them. That one had me stumped a little bit but I do believe there's a difference.
Sorry this is so long, just wanted to get some perspective. I feel like I'm apart of a body of believers where an egalitarian woman would thrive! It's kind of ironic. The Lord really does have a sense of humor.
I think that if you don't think it's right, you shouldn't do it. Not everything is right for everyone, even if you believe in the Egalitarian way (full disclosure, I do. Still do after this video even.) If you're convicted that it isn't right then you shouldn't do it.
I’m sorry to say but your pastor has got it all messed up. He doesn’t want to be obedient to Gods word.
I really don't have anything to say about your situation. I am too young and naïve to really have anything good to say. I just want to say as a young Christian, I really admire your heart and desire to be obedient to the word of God. It is just so amazing to me. I hope that you have found some clarity on your question!
It’s about individual service in my opinion. The same way that a pastor cannot “call” you to any service as a missionary or pastor or otherwise, only Jesus can. Just tell him that you’ll pray about it and consider it. Did you feel any calling to that office? Waiting is not a bad thing. Wait and contemplate.
I remember when God performed a miraculous healing through me many years ago, right in my own living room. When my pastor heard of it, he said I wasn't an elder. How do we stop obedience to God and His will because we are bound by such "rules?" I think it was also about the mistaken theology that spiritual gifts have ceased. God proved Himself and after great study, the pastor believed and changed his limiting doctrine. Praise God.
I don’t hear much in these comments of what women supposedly can do, except carry water so to speak. Not trying to be ugly, but it’s upsetting, to me at least, that people accept that theology and women become shut up in tiny boxes and are not allowed to be free to practice the anointing on their lives. The same Holy Ghost indwells women also along with all of its power and authority. If by some way the body can be made weaker by men or women convincing each other that a woman’s service is so confined to so little, I’m certain that it is not to the glory of God.
@@Omatimestwo
An anointing of the Holy Spirit is the anointing of a powerful masculine being. That anointing eclipses gender.
Great and deep debate on this topic, appreciate your time and effort, hope it goes far and wide.
Galatians in that context is discussing justification and our position as heirs. Paul takes pains to make sure the church knew that neither their sex nor economic nor political position affected that. Everyone was in Christ. That has nothing to do with the rolls they take in the church.
The choir analogy doesn’t work, because each member of the choir sings a particular part (soprano, alto, bass, etc). So their roles of singing are still necessarily “different”, not hidden under their garments. For her analogy to work, all choir members would also have to sing the same part, which would defeat the purpose of the choir. Just like the Bible’s *Body* analogy, a foot is a foot, an eye is an eye, etc. We are one body with different parts.
We are spirit, not bodies. Bodies don't give us truth, Christ mind does. Judge not by appearance but judge by righteous judgment.
@@robertdouglas8895 We are the body of Christ. Christ is the Way the Truth and the Light and through our proclamation of faith we become a part of the body of Christ.
@@danielespitia1776 The "body" of Christ is a symbol of spirit and the mind of Christ. It has nothing to do with the physical world. It has to do with connecting to truth through prayer. We are not bodies but spirit, created in the likeness of God. Bodies give us no truth. So this world doesn't take us back to God. Doing things means nothing. Changing our minds is everything. Metanoia. Faith is important in the process, but it's the desire and practice of changing our minds that returns us to God as Spirit.
Apparently no women can be feet(pastors), arms(teachers), hands(elders), …Said a little tongue in cheek, but that’s the impression I’m getting.
So, grateful God led me to you Mike! Also, I love that you haven't monetized your videos. It's not necessarily a deal breaker to so, but I respect your choice.
he stated recently the videos do make money, but all the money goes to the ministry. or something to this effect. I think this was in his Joel Olsteen video.
To be in Christ is a spiritual setting; green pastures, still waters etc
The kingdom of heaven is not an earthly matter but a matter of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
We are not qualified in Christ, rather, in Christ we are qualified.
We are called to walk in the spirit and
when we walk in the flesh we fall from the spiritual setting that we have been placed into, and we are no longer in Christ.
But the grace of God and the Holy Spirit will remind us of our position and in contrition we call out to our saviour and he welcomes us back into the fold. The flesh (of every man - male or female) cries out for equallty but we are called to deny the flesh in obedience to God. 🙏🏻❤🙏🏻 Merciful God, in Christ you show us that we can be led by the spirit. You encourage us and say - stick together - you got this!
I wish I had a stay-at-home mom growing up.
I did and she had probably (and still does) have some of the most influence on my faith. I think we definitely downplay how important the role of mother's teaching their kids is.
This is so well constructed and heavily thought out Mike! You are so good at this! Thank you for so much work! I dont see how anyone can even argue this after truly listening to this! God bless you and your family! PS, i try to blame my cats for everything, but i always get busted by my husband!...haha
I actually can't believe I made it to video 7 😁. When I saw the numbers and the length of the videos I thought oooh no I will never make it, but after each and every video I was looking forward to the next one. Thank you for your work! Such an exhaustive study!
This has always been a problematic topic for me, but I never researched it in such depth. I was always a complementarian, but now I am not so harsh about women in ministry, especially women in teaching ministries.
You are so fine and fun to listen to 😀. May God bless you
There are three Protestant/Catholic (cause you're the same) apologists that don't drive me insane.
You are one.
Thanks for your efforts.
Hi Mike, I live in South Africa and I've loved your series on Complementarian/ Egalitarian, it's been phenomenal! Thank you so much for all the study etc that has gone into it, it is a brilliant resource for the church and will be in the years to come
I did just want to check if you have read and engaged with Andrew Bartlett's Men and Women in Christ's (2019)
He seems to wrestle and argue against the current Complementarian thought quite comprehensively and it'd be great if you were willing to engage with it even briefly in a video 😄😄
I hope you are doing well and thank you so much!!
Brothers, sisters, please contemplate the verse in context of what Paul says elsewhere, that he wanted to be found “IN CHRIST”. Learn what the truth is to that statement, and apply it to “whoever believes “IN ME” should not perish”, “this is the bread of my body broken for you, do this IN remembrance of me”. He was saying live life inside this new body as the new creation, in honor to him.
IN Christ, there is no male or female. “In that day you will understand that I am in my FATHER, and you are IN ME, and I am IN YOU”.
Believing IN Christ is far more than believing that the gospel is merely the truth. We who have been baptized INTO Christ have clothed ourselves WITH him. It can all be traced back even to the Psalms: “Whoever dwells IN the shelter of the Most High will rest IN the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”
Mike has refuted this argument in this very video. Repeating a defeated argument only makes it a twice defeated argument. There is no point in doing so. Your supporting arguments are filled with false equivalencies and highly interpretive arguments that have no support when the verses are read in context. You need to examine your heart and see if it is actually God there. When arguments are as incoherent as this, it is often because we are usurping the role of God and placing something else in his place.
@@kolbywilliams7234
Then what does Paul mean when he says he wanted to be found in Christ?
It’s only incoherent because you fail to understand the mystery of Christ Paul referenced:
Ephesians 5:31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
32 This is a profound mystery-but I am talking about Christ and the church.”
You tell me how they become ONE FLESH AND NOT BE IN HIM??????
Or how about John;
John 14:20: On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are IN ME, and I am in you.
THE ONLY THING incomprehensible is how anyone can possibly read all the words and not see Exactly why Paul wanted to be found IN HIM.
So please explain to me the incoherence of God in the flesh saying we will one day understand we are IN HIM, and Paul wanting to be found IN HIM or the The Body becoming 1 FLESH in Christ. What is so incoherent?
@Steve Taylor, If I'm hearing Mike and reading you correctly, you are both saying the same thing but differently.
@@davidchristie7764 yeah. Not sure what the other guy was so upset about. What I said had nothing to do with women preaching, Paul was also clear on that. He didn’t permit it, even though he thought we were all 1 in Christ. So, yes we are equal in the body, but I believe the Bible, whatever is written whether I like it or not. Paul said it, I believe it. He wouldn’t allow it, who am I to say for whatever reason that was, he was wrong?
@@stevetaylor4577
It seems to me that you are trying to make the egalitarian argument that because we are all in Christ and are baptized into the same spirit that there are no male or female roles. Am I incorrect? If so, I apologize. It just comes off that way because Mike has addressed that in this lesson today and it seems like your response to the lesson is a call to examine the truth of this scripture. Typically, when someone responds to what another has said with “search for the truth,” they are implying that the truth has not been spoken.
I’m loving this series. I’m hoping we get a practical summary at some point- what your conclusions mean today and what’s okay and what’s not
Thank you for addressing the devaluing of traditional women's roles
The parting comment at the end is something I'm not sure I want to try and figure out what's going on with the SBC. It has a place in my heart because I was raised SBC, but after I grew up and started to really dive into doctrinal issues and confronting what I thought weren't Biblical rules (like they wouldn't allow my wife and I to dance at our wedding) I left and sought out other denominations. We're currently at a non-denominational evangelical church.
i am with you in your conviction. my thinking is very similar, for similar reasons. follow through the egalitarian argument, and either anyone can marry anyone, or else no one can marry anyone.
Thanks pastor Mike for this teaching it is helpful and enriching 🙏🙏🙏
I am SO sorry if someone else has already mentioned this but I would just like to throw it out there in case no one has:
Pastor, I am SO grateful for all your hard work on this and I love to study out what you have taught. One question I REALLY do hope you answer is:
If it is not biblical for women to hold the role of Elder, what do we do now? Many churches take the egalitarian view that they can be. How should we handle that and what does it mean for those of us that find ourselves already in submission to Female Elder leadership?
You may have plans to address that, likely near or at the end, but I just wanted to make sure I voiced my desire to work through that question in case, by some crazy chance, you ended up passing it up somehow.
Thanks for all you do!!
Personally I couldn’t follow a “pastor” that isn’t following/teaching the Bible. So I would leave. I understand you would prefer Mikes answer for such a big decision.
That is a good question, and I know I’m not Mike Winger, but maybe I can say something that can help until Mike does answer this because I, too, was just recently in a church with a female head pastor.
I think there are a number of questions to answer when considering whether to leave a particular congregation or denomination. No congregation is going to be perfect, and Mike has said that this is a secondary issue, not a primary issue. So I think you should ask yourself some of these questions:
Does the leadership and congregation profess the irreducible minimum? That being we are saved through faith by grace. Christ is the messiah and son of God. And that Christ died for our sins and conquered death. If they do not, run away as fast as you can!
Does your church affirm sins such as homosexuality, or fornication?
Does your pastor preach a biblical message, or a political one? I find that if your pastor is using language that you hear from a college professor or an activist on the news, then they most certainly are not thinking biblically.
I don’t claim that this is an exhaustive list, but I hope it stimulates your thought on such an important issue. I ultimately chose to leave my church and find a new one because the female pastor and bishop (Methodist) were so proud in spirit that they refused to listen to us on anything. That church had hundreds of people across three different services and now they don’t even have enough congregants who donate money to pay an associate pastor. Progressive Christianity kills churches, and if you feel that your church is falling into that trap, then I pray you will have the courage to stand against that. That said, I did not leave just because there was a female pastor, but because of what she was doing and how she failed in fulfilling the duties of a pastor.
Matthew 18:15? Try to reason with leadership (winger gave you an excellent outline in his pages of notes from which to debate with) and leave if led to.
Thanks all!!
I LOVE my church. They teach from the bible and I have never heard them teach anything that fits those descriptions that you mentioned as issues, Mr. Williams (which I agree with you on and am always careful to watch out for, amongst other things.)
They have Jesus right. They have salvation right. They have the Trinity right. They have the essential doctrines right. It's this peripheral subject that it seems they may be off on, based on Pastor Mike's teaching here.
Plus, the head pastor of the church is not a female. However, there are many pastors within the church that ARE female and they not only hold a position of authority over men in the church but they also teach men as well. Even in the context of the entire congregation on Sunday morning.
I had wondered in the past whether or not that was biblical but I hadn't looked into it enough to have a clean understanding of it for myself. So, because all of their other doctrines are right on, I didn't concern myself with it too much.
Now, I am in a place of wondering whether or not I should make a big deal about it or if it, being a peripheral issue, is something I should overlook and just stick with the church that I love and that is otherwise biblically sound.
Very interested to see what Pastor Mike might have to say about that and his reasoning behind it, which I could study into myself.
@@katiesonlinename
That’s great to hear, and it’s good that at least the head pastor is a man, even though it’s not good that he has allowed this to happen. I would probably not leave if I were in your shoes. It’s a secondary issue, in my opinion, and no congregation is going to get everything right because we’re still sinful human beings. I would probably ask these pastors to explain their thoughts on this subject, though. I think that it would be a good idea for you to hear what they have to say about this so that you can gain more insight into the way they conduct their study of theology. One of the reasons I left my old congregation is because I felt the pastors danced around issues with me instead of giving me straight answers when I asked difficult questions. They would always get flustered and say “the church’s position is…” and that immediately sent up a ton of red flags.
Regardless of what you decide to do, I’ll be sure to remember you in my prayers. Confronting your church, or even just disagreeing with the leadership of your church, is never easy and this topic in particular is volatile in our current culture. Christ never said following him would be easy!
I sing in my church choir as a Tenor. If I try and sing Soprano I am NOT fulfilling my proper role in that choir. I do not fit the requirements of a Soprano. I may want to hit those super high notes but if I try and take that role onto myself I will only make noise and destroy the harmony of the choir.
What a great comment 👍
Thank you so much for this series.
Can’t wait to watch this one!
I know this is off topic but I just finished watching your Bible translations video, and at the end you said you were thinking of moving towards ESV or NASB or Holman's. Which is your preferred translation now?
I'm looking to move away from NIV to a translation I can really study and dig into.
He uses mostly the ESV, if that helps :)
It's called proof texting. BTW, there are different "roles" within a choir. It is not just singing. A choir director has to know how to use different voices, and who can play different instruments. If there is an exceptional voice, you feature it, you don't bury it.
As someone who sings alto, I can definitely attest that although we are all part of the choir and our voices together create the total sound , the sopranos and tenors get the melodies and stand out parts most often, while the altos and basses supply support. :-)
Amen, completely agree.
In this secular world woman have took on an equal role with men.
if you look at this secular world and what has made a woman equal in the work force, it is not just the easy work.(( My grandma was a hard worker! She worked harder probably than most men. ))
Its not so much the easy work as it is abortion.
Abortion is what makes woman equal.
Without abortion a woman would be out of work for long periods multiple times due to multiple pregnancies.
Birth control is a form of abortion as well and if a woman didn't have access to birth controls she would be pregnant a lot.
If a woman gets pregnant during a possible big promotion in the equal and secular world, she just goes and simply gets an abortion!
Woman being equal = aborted babies
That is what has made women equal in this secular world.
Men were supposed to work and women was supposed to raise the kids up in God.
Now in this equal and secular world a school takes over the raising up the child. The school teaches them that they are an animal who evolved from other animals and that the world came to be via a big bang. So first there was nothing and then there was something.
The woman becoming equal was a lot harder on us as a whole. This has effected society more than people can even imagine. We lost one of the most important things.
This is why we should not disobey God.
That is why we should not come up with excuses to disobey God.
What God says is true and if observations are made through a biblical view the truth is easy to see.
A woman should stay in her role, as well a man should stay in his role.
Eagerly awaiting the next installment…..
Thank You brother for this series
Even people in the choir have different functions, they don’t all sing the same.
Richard W. Hove wrote a book called "Equality in Christ: Galatians 3:28 and the Gender Debate". It's perhaps the most exhaustive treatment of this verse from a complementarian perspective. It was written in 1999 so some of it might be out of date, but it is still worthwhile to read if anyone is interested.
1:38 where Mike makes himself answer the hardest question he can come up with that would challenge his position in this context was important, compelling, and just shed light on the whole two sides of this issue for me. I believe he's 100% right: If the go-to elder requirements passage gave another limitation, some people would listen and heed that limitation even if it disqualified them. Other people would try to find any reason they could (cultural, limited to that specific church, we know better now, Whatever!) to fight the limitation and to refuse to heed it. We should tread very carefully if we are falling into that mindset in any Biblical area. We should also discern that tendency in people's positions and arguments and limit our trust and support for them, or at least their views.
Thank you for making that point about feminism. I always felt that the way its being pushed is actually trying to make women like men. It seems to be anti what is naturally feminine. I am a stay at home mom and I love it and I'm proud of it, but many women treat me as lesser because of it.
My church was practically founded by widows and ran by women. There have never been men around to take care of the elder and leadership roles. I don’t know what it would be like to be in a church with mostly men
There is just more men in the countryside than cities.
I mean, I live just outside a major military base.
doesn't have to be mostly men, but rather lead by men.
One clarification of something that frequently confuses people. The Judaizers that Paul was always refuting were not trying to get Gentile converts to obey the Law. They were telling Gentiles they had to be circumcised according to Jewish tradition (convert to Pharisaical Judaism, with all of its extrabiblical rules) in order to be considered "saved" and enjoy fellowship with their Jewish brothers. They called it "the tradition of Moses", but it was purely a tradition of men. The command is to circumcise 8-day old boys and any man who wants to eat the Passover. Anything more is adding to the Law and would be, itself, a violation of the Law.
I agree. I am doing a study of Romans right now and in chapter 14 it comes up again. I am trying to figure out who the ‘weak’ Christians are from the ‘strong’ Christians. It seems that those who are following the traditions of Judaism are the ones who are ‘weak’ and that the Gentiles need to be compassionate with, the legalistic. Thoughts?
@@DeneenTB Hi Deneen. This is a quote from a chapter by chapter summary I did of Romans last year...
"Chapter 14: Welcome those whose faith is not as strong as yours and don’t berate them for their weaknesses. Don’t get caught up in worthless arguments over whether to eat meat or be a vegetarian and on what day to fast completely. Live according to your own consciences, not condemning each other for differences of opinion. Our lives are no longer our own, but we all live and die for the sake of God. None of us are perfect, and we will all answer for our own failings. Be considerate of each other’s opinions and don’t tempt or offend a brother contrary to his conscience. Food and drink are relatively minor issues in the Kingdom of God. It’s not a sin to eat meat or drink wine, but don’t do it if it creates a problem for a brother."
In other words, I think the weak Christians are those who are overly concerned with relatively trivial matters that aren't even necessarily scriptural. The "party of the circumcision" would be among them, but so would those Gentiles who were getting caught up in angel worship, asceticism, and trying not to appear too Jewish (see the Didache's discussion of fast days).
54:30 On the note of being embarrassed to be a homemaker/stay at home mom, it was actually my husband who was embarrassed of me being a housewife and not pursuing a career like all of his unmarried friends’ girlfriends/fiancées
GOD be with us all 🙏❤️
Brothers and sisters, please, please also pray for me and my family. And if ever, by any chance, you have some extra blessings to share to a stranger, we could really use some help rn. 🙏 We're in desperate need of GOD's miracles. We've been at the rock bottom for a very long time that its badly affecting us mentally, emotionally and physically. 😔💔
ps--Your visual and audio were in sync on my tablet the whole time!!
he mentioned this in the video a few minutes after it started and mentions it here in the comments.
It is a stretch to take that verse that far out of context in order to mold it into a corrupt doctrine.
I am an incredibly opinionated woman, with a super strong mind, but I would never dare to argue with The Almighty!
I know who is wiser, He is wiser, my God, my Saviour, my hope!
I suggest nobody should ever argue with God, because there is nothing more lacking in wisdom, than that!
"The flip flops" 🤣🤣🤣
Great series, thanks Pastor Mike!
Mike, I was encouraged by the first half of this video. I agreed with almost everything and felt maybe I could take a break from leaving long comments. :P But in the second half, there were a lot of issues I felt the need to comment on.
Your main premise is great. Gal. 3:28-29 should not be the central verse on which egalitarianism is built. It can’t hold the weight and is not any sort of “silver bullet.” Regardless of what side one is on, it is wrong for anyone to build a theology on a single verse removed from context. So, as an egalitarian, I will happily say my view is not based on this verse. I think your analysis on the verse itself is great.
But, there were some other issues.
1. You said the egalitarian position seems to lead to abolishing elders/authority entirely (since authority of one over another would violate equality in Christ, according to egal logic). But I think you’ve misunderstood. Egalitarianism is not against authority and does not logically lead to abolishing authority. They believe authority/roles should be based on the merits of the individual, not an arbitrary factor such as race, social class, or gender. If elders are elders because they are virtuous and wise, this is good. If they are elders because they’re a certain gender or color, this is not good. The former are directly-related qualifications that fit the position. The latter are aspects of who a person is (unrelated to ability or qualification). This is the point you have not understood since your first video: if women are to be subordinate precisely and only because they are women, this has implications about womanhood itself. You cannot escape that, and you haven’t answered it.
2. Regarding those who say complementarians “take away women’s dreams/goals.” You said (correctly), “It was never about you! It’s about service.” True, but this is only half the picture. First, we can’t use this to justify mistreatment of others. We can’t wrongly forbid someone from something and, when they protest, dismiss them for being “prideful” and “ambitious.” James 2:3 condemns those who give privilege to some and mistreat others based on status. James didn’t tell people not to protest being told to “sit on the floor.” He told people not to make poorly dressed people sit on the floor in the first place. Imagine treating people differently in this way and then, when they protest, dismiss what they say because “it’s not about you, it’s about service.” Second, it’s important to note that those who stand for women’s equality in ministry (right or wrong) are doing so on behalf of all women, not just themselves. The disagreement is over whether this is a true case of oppression, not whether Christians should stand against oppression. We should not dismiss any woman who criticizes gender-based restrictions of merely trying to advance her own status.
3. You say an error of feminism is that it diminishes traditional women’s roles. My aim is not to defend feminism, but I do think you’ve misunderstood it. Feminism is not about certain roles/jobs being better or worse. It’s about the freedom to choose for oneself. If I said “people with the name Mike must be janitors and can never be CEOs”, and you push back, what if I said “you’re devaluing janitors and saying their job isn’t important.” Would I be correct? Of course not! Similarly, saying that women should not be restricted to only homemaking and raising children is not diminishing these very important jobs. It’s saying a woman may have valuable contributions in other areas as well.
4. You claim Ephesians 5 and 1 Corinthians 7 show differences in the way men and women represent Christ in how they relate to one another. I’m not sure what you’re referring to in 1 Cor. 7, so I’ll focus on Ephesians 5. I disagree that it establishes different ways each gender represents Christ. Wives are told to submit to their husbands IN THE SAME WAY they would to Christ, and husbands are told to love their wives IN THE SAME WAY Christ loves the church. But two points must be made. First, these are examples of how to love/submit, NOT necessarily representation of anything (the text itself does not say anything about representation of Christ/the church). When Paul tells men to love their wives “as their own bodies”, he’s not saying wives somehow represent men’s bodies. He’s saying men love their bodies, and they should love their wives in the same way. We have to be careful of reading anything more into that
5. You say egalitarians “place limits” on how we’re “allowed” to interpret the rest of the Bible based on Galatians 3:28. Again, I agree that this verse sometimes is stretched too far. However, I wish you would not act surprised as if the method being used here is unusual or automatically erroneous. “Scripture interprets Scripture” is a well-known principle. Ignoring this principle leads to contradictions and/or absurd conclusions. When Jesus says “ask anything and it shall be given to you”, we must qualify this with other biblical teachings. We know that it can’t be understood too broadly, because I haven’t gotten my Ferrari yet. It’s disingenuous for you to characterize this sort of thing as “now allowing” certain interpretations. You yourself, even on this topic, use many verses to limit others (I know you will in 1 Corinthians 14, for example).
Continued in part 2 (in comments below).
Part 2:
6. You claim there is a difference between Jews and Gentiles in the church, an idea I find both confusing and troubling. You don’t explain this at all. What exactly do you think is the difference? Are there different roles for Jews and Gentiles in the church, or restrictions? On this same topic, I think you ascribe too much significance to the fact that Paul continued to observe the Jewish laws. The obvious solution must not have occurred to you: I believe this clearly is part of Paul’s effort to “become all things to all people” so he might win over some, and to avoid causing unnecessary offense that might hinder the reception of the Gospel. This seems pretty clear to me, but you don’t consider it and instead use Paul’s observance of the law to declare that there are persisting differences between Jews and Gentiles in the church (again, without telling us what this even means).
7. You compare the slave/free distinction with the male/female distinction, then ask egalitarians: “if the male/female role distinction is to be abolished, why are slaves told to continue obeying their masters instead of telling them they’re free?” This is concerning. To be clear, I’m not saying you support slavery. But you may have been careless with this argument: it sounds a little too much like you’re saying male/female role distinctions should continue, and therefore, since they’re listed together (such as Ephesians 5-6), so should master/slave distinctions.
Further, I’m shocked that you don’t see this juxtaposition actually works against you. The fact that Paul suggests male/female distinctions and slave/master distinctions in the context strongly suggests that both are cultural issues he tolerates but does not condone. Complementarians must explain why they come to two very different conclusions on this, why slavery is clearly cultural but patriarchy is universal. After all, we know gender-based hierarchy was an essential part of that time and culture. The Roman laws commanded men to lead their families and withheld many rights from women. I’d like to ask complementarians why their views look so much like 1st century Roman/Greek culture.
8. It’s interesting that you started to bring up slavery but then quickly retreated. I plan to check out your video on slavery to see your reasoning. But for now, I seriously wonder, if you were to approach the issue of what the Bible teaches about slavery in the same way you approach the issue of women, would you find enough biblical evidence against slavery? Or would you discover that you’re being inconsistent in your approaches and smuggling in prior assumptions? (to be clear, I absolutely believe slaver is wrong and that the Bible is against it…but I think I am more consistent than you are. If one concludes slavery is wrong but subordination of women is good, I think you have some serious hermeneutical contradictions, as I’ve alluded to above..)
9. Another concerning statement: you mentioned Paul encouraging those who are slaves not to worry about their status and to just serve God where they are. In light of this, you stated “so there are still some differences there” (differences in rank/position between Christians). But I’m shocked at what you seem to be concluding. Paul is not ENDORSING these differences! He is recognizing that they exist in the world, but stating that the Gospel is the highest priority. Paul’s primary purpose was not to advance social change, but to spread the Gospel. But that doesn’t mean he condoned cultural conventions like slavery and patriarchy. I think I understand, though, why you’re vague about this… if you admit that Paul can tell slaves to remain slaves and obey their masters, and yet be against slavery, you would have to admit that Paul could speak of husbands ruling over wives and yet be against it. And this, of course, would undermine your complementarian views.
10. You asked egalitarians: “if 1 Tim. 3 said an elder must be a Jew, how would you respond?” First, this is a loaded question, because it implies egalitarians reject what the Bible says because they don’t like it. This is wrong. Egalitarians take the Bible seriously, they just have honestly come to a different interpretation. None of us should be so arrogant as to claim that anyone who disagrees with our interpretation is not taking the Bible seriously.
Second, 1 Tim. 3 does not say this, so it’s irrelevant. This is no different from an atheist asking you “if the Bible told you to harm your children, would you obey it?” It’s an impossible question to answer. What if the Bible taught that slavery is okay, or that polygamy is good? Would you be obedient and accept this? How would you answer such questions?
Third, we could keep making the hypotheticals more absurd. “If the Bible taught that only men named Bob with a freckle by their left ear can be an elder, would you obey it?” You can virtue signal all you want by proudly proclaiming that you’d obey whatever it says without question. But I hope, if a teaching seemed sufficiently odd or arbitrary, you would dig deeper into it to make sure you’re understanding correctly. After all, there are a ton of dangerous opportunities for misunderstanding in the Bible if we just blindly follow whatever we read, without doing our due diligence to understand and apply it correctly.
Fourth (and this is very important), 1 Tim. 3 1-7 NEVER says an elder “must be a man.” If Paul wanted to make that clear, this passage was the perfect opportunity. But he didn’t, and you haven’t even tried to explain why. You just breezed past that passage in your earlier video. This passage is composed of deliberately gender-neutral terms. “Husband of one wife” is not necessarily gender-exclusive, but means “faithful to one’s spouse.” It’s as if, in English, it said “an elder must treat his animals well”, and you concluded that an elder must own animals. Or, if it said “an elder must not cheat on his taxes” and you concluded all elders must have taxable income. Why do complementarians stretch this passage so far to try to make it teach male-only eldership? If that’s what Paul meant, why didn’t he just say so?
I really don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but despite the number of hours covered so far, the only attempts you’ve made to actually argue FOR the complementarian position are based on:
Genesis 2 to 3, even though there is nothing there but “hints” that “could” be taken to support male leadership. There certainly is nothing explicit in the text stating that Adam is a leader or authority of any kind.
and,
1 Timothy 3:1-7, which, as I said above, you only briefly covered and which even some complementarians admit does not support male-only eldership.
You have not yet provided sufficient evidence for complementarianism in the first place, and instead have gone straight to trying to refute the refutation of it. If I were watching this with no knowledge of the debate, I would be fascinated by your arguments, but I would wonder “okay, but why does he believe complementarianism in the first place?” We haven’t yet heard nearly the weight of evidence that should be necessary to establish such a broad, universal set of rules with no clear benefits beyond the fact you think the Bible says so. Honestly, I wish you would follow up this series with some videos focusing exclusively on complementarianism and why you think it’s the correct view. I would watch those in a heartbeat!
Well said brother. This series is too long and a disappointment. I am an older brother and family man, raised in a Pentecostal church. The so called egalitarian view is found in the Bible, New and Old Testament. I have never thought of any verse being a silver bullet, as doctrine and teaching must never be based on one passage. It seems to me that it is the complementaran that uses the Timothy passage as a silver bullet.
@@padillas4357 Thank you! Yes, I couldn't agree more. I've seldom (maybe never) seen an egalitarian say "Galatians 3:28...case closed!" However, I can't count the number of times I see complementarians say "1 Timothy 2:11-12...case closed!" It's abundantly clear that Mike hasn't spent nearly enough time studying complementarianism. Which he admitted, of course...he said that prior to this study, he would always decline questions on this topic because he didn't know it well enough. Honestly, I think it's concerning any time anyone is fine with restricting and subjugating women without even checking first to see if they're correct. But then, when he did this study, he says he studied primarily egalitarian scholars. He needed to start with seeing if there are strong arguments for complementarianism in the first place. If someone fails to refute something, it does not follow that that thing is true.
@@jesselazar2928 I would also like to echo what MANY of my fellow egalitarian brothers have said, He is using very poor sources and arguments.
"The problem is that these videos are conflating women in ministry arguments with liberalism (usually of the political variety). However, for those of us growing up in Anabaptistic and Holiness churches that is laughable. When you add Pentecostal and Charismatic churches to the mix you find arguments that appear quite different." and "There are plenty of scholars in the Assembly of God, the Church of God (Anderson), the Nazarene Church, the Wesleyan Church, and other Holiness and Pentecostal churches that are never mentioned here.".
@@jesselazar2928 You are a compelling writer and raise such interesting questions. The way 1 Timothy 2:11-12 was explained to me was that unlike hair braiding and slavery, the statements in vs. 13-14 make the previous verse universal. I know there are some who say that Paul was correcting a first century belief system in Ephesus about Adam and Eve, but others of course, disagree. And then there are all of those interpretations of 1 Timothy 2:12 as well. This is going to be in a future session, but I think he could devote way more than 2 hours to it!
I am not an Egalitarian or a Complementarian, but I do believe that women can teach and be Elders. I also believe that they can't be Elders or teach men. I think it is all contextual and nuanced (Eye-roll - I don't have time to make a 7 part series on what I think). I have never used Galatians 3.28 as silver bullet. I would say that the silver bullet for Egalitarians is Genesis 1, Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 7; 12-14, Lukes entire gospel, big sections of John. Galatians 3 and Romans 16 are only sprinkles on the top of the cake. It is all an issue of Hermeneutics. Egalitarians are speaking Portuguese and the Complementarians are speaking Spanish. They can understand each other - but - not really. I see some of the same type of conversations happening when Systematics and Biblicist try to talk about anything.
This comment is for Mike. I wanted to send it privately though his web site but the form limited the length of the text. So, everyone else avert your eyes, or at least recognize that the message is one of love and simply a suggestion that may improve some outreach to some viewers like me.
Mike,
Thank you for the time and clear Christian effort you put into your CZcams videos and live streams. I am not a follower, I don't do that "like and subscribe" thing in any way. I do profit from your content. It often motivates me to dig even more deeply into the Word of God for understanding and flourishing in this wonderful freedom that is the abundant mercy of Christ towards us. Thank you for that.
We do not agree on every issue, and perhaps that is something that will only be possible when we no longer see as in a mirror. But I do feel that you are encouraging believers to compare everything to the word of God and realize that it does not contradict itself. If we are to love God with our whole mind, what does that mean? If our approach to everything in life is to look at it through the lens of God's revelation to us, we must indeed study his word, constantly.
I just wanted to mention that I miss out on some of the content because my nature makes it hard for me to watch the videos. I can listen just fine but there is one behavior that you do on screen that is very distracting.
I find myself compelled to enumerate each time it happens, thus detraction from my ability to pay close attention to the message at hand. This is my problem, however, I just imagine if there is one of me, there are more. I used to be a businessman and one of the things I was aware of was, if a single customer has a complaint, it is likely that there are a lot more than have the same or similar complaint, but don't speak up.
I used to get colds every cold season. One particular cold was horrific and I was concerned that if I came in to the university to teach my intro to programing class, I might spread the sickness to my students. So, I arranged to do the class in the auditorium where the separation between me and the students should protect them from my pathogens.
Dr. Joshi, my department head, told me it was an interesting approach, but in the future it would be better if I didn't get sick.
I had all the respect in the world for Dr. Joshi and also never knew him to joke about anything. He seemed to be serious. So I asked him, "How do I achieve that?" "Simple", he replied. "Just keep your hands away from the holes in your head."
It turns out this is a very tough habit to break, but the payoff is worth it. That conversation happened in 1998 and to this day, though I have suffered three strokes, two heart attacks, diabetics and COPD, I have only suffered one cold, which, resulted from a day in the hospital.
Just a note Mike, You touch your face often, paying especial attention to your nose and mouth. I am not saying you are creating a stumbling block, but in some cases it might be a hindrance to some of your potential audience. For your own good, if you decide to act upon this revelation, don't just be conscious of it when you are shooting a video, or doing a stream. That may hinder your concentration. Instead just trade the habit of touching your face with a new habit of not touching your face.
Sounds tough? It is at first. Also there are times when an itch or sweat running down your forehead make it impossible to not respond. For these times there is tissue paper, or sometimes I use a paper towel. Bounty is the quicker picker upper.
Again, thank you for your diligence in exploring the word of God and encouraging others, us, to engage in Biblical thinking.
Post Note: I guess it was a blessing on this particular video, the audio snc issue was a non sequitur for me.
Love your videos!! I'm new to them. So glad to see exhaustive research being done. As a woman who truly wants to follow the Bible for what it actually says, this series is amazing. You're right, this is important to women just as much to men. Most women aren't really offended by the idea of there being different gender roles. They just want to use their gifts to glorify God and not do anything wrong. You mostly confirmed what I already found to be true myself, but it was nice to see I had a "scholarly" justification for it! I was surprised about women being able to be deacons (probably), as well as your "women be silent in the church" interpretation. That was the one verse that I really could never understand, I just couldn't reconcile it with anything else in scripture. I knew it didn't mean total silence, but I couldn't figure out what it actually did mean, thank you!!
All in all, the Bible means what it simply says. Only sometimes do we need to get all "scholarly" to figure something out. I don't think women in ministry is actually so unclear. I think it's just our culture that tries to make it seem unclear and totally complicated.. when it isn't.
Hierarchy and submission and how proper and beautiful it is, is really easy to understand when observing children. A child who has a gentle and peaceful demeanor, who submits and respects authority, is an absolute joy to be around. A child at peace, not striving, not belligerent, not grasping to be "in charge"--so beautiful. But we would never say they have less value just because they have no authority. Kids or teenagers who always try to take over, talking back, usurping authority--or thinking higher of themselves or their own opinions than what is due their current life station--is exasperating and just plain ugly. They will be entrusted with less, not more. When I consider submisson and respect, this helps me see clearly how important it is.
Alexandra
you wrote:
As a woman who truly wants to follow the Bible for what it actually says...
Complementarianism is a false teaching. At its center
it supports a two-tiered priesthood based on birthright.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood...
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Reply for my full post 'Complementarianism' if desired.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
@878 4436 that is not true about a two-tiered priedthood system based on birthright. He refutes that directly in one of his videos. Did you actually watch any of his videos? Because it sounds like you are totally unaware of what complementarians actually believe.
I agree with you totally: men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
@@alexandrasutter7805 (Didn't get your
notification. This keeps happening.)
I haven't watched much of his videos,
but am familiar with these matters.
I also wrote a short essay on Deborah.
There is a great deal to learn about her.
Complementarianism
That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than
Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are.
The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding
certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can
they teach men. So why is that?
The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant
is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in
leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the
lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited
from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make
any sense.
A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower,
at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines
their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier.
A Christian that is in the lower tier (woman) is not allowed to
complain of the tier she was placed in. That would be sin, because
God made her a woman by His choice. She should accept and also
embrace her position in the lower tier.
A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women.
A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be
a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but
they aren't, but they are, when did that start?
But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer.
-excerpt 1 Timothy 2
It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we
have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders
are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability
that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This
inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman
in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb.
So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because
an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not
sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the
spiritually superior level of a Christian man.
Me personally I feel as if there’s been a plan that God has made for humanity since Adam and Eve, the equality between them is what God always conveyed, when God called Adam both him and Eve would show up in His presence. There was no separation within Gods eyes because God looks at the heart rather than the outward appearance. I felt as if the same could be said for the body of Christ, because, essentially we’re preparing ourselves for God’s kingdom and the oneness He always conveys. (like that repetitive motif of oneness😂😂) We are all made one through Christ and I feel like if God is to use a person He will, regardless of former life or skin colour or gender after all we all do belong to Him. This is my opinion tho😁
He does call women to His use. Just not as pastor or elder. Scripture is clear on God’s heart in this area.
@@KristiLEvans1 I do understand that but churches don’t have to be grand for the believers are the church, and the bible says when 2 or more a gathered in His name He is there among them. So say a woman decided to lead a small church just because she was on fire for the Lord, should she not do so?? Should she not spread the gospel doing the work that was set all believers?? Idk I just feel like it would make sense for judiasers to say woman couldn’t be in ministry because of the heavy male centrism that takes place and Galatia decided to go against that just to spread the gospel in which Galatians 3:28 could’ve come about.
You are twisting God's words to support a falsehood. The point God was making to Samuel was that he was basing someone's leadership abilities based on superficial things like someone's looks instead of their willingness to obey His commands.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 Samuel? What does Samuel have to do with this??
@UC1kjqERJzX9Kh21YOxJKFkw I’m not sure sister, I’ll reread that passage n see what conclusions i draw upon or the Holy Spirit gives me because tbh my opinions doesn’t change the factual evidence.
Like all progressive movements, the adherents will use whatever miniscule stat or statement as being the basis for their claim and expect the world or church in this case, to believe it as well and then to follow it.
It makes me respect the flagrant atheists more: at least they’re honest. But who wouldn’t want to borrow authority when it can be shaped to give me what I want more palatably?
Seems as though it's an issue of "class distinctions" which were present in their culture. For example, a slave in a Christian church could be an elder and his master could also be attending that same fellowship. As with the book of James, distinctions due to wealth or societal norms of the day were not to influence them to give preference to one over the other. Also, the use of the word "sons" is important because sons inherit which Galatians 4 makes clear. Inheritance is future as is our "adoption." Great job Pastor Mike!
I love that women and men are different and have different roles to compliment and balance each other and their kids.
With the father having the leadership role.
And mother the nurturing tole with some overlapp of course depending on. Unique situations and the kids having the learning and growing and to honor role.
Listening to and obey g their parents.
It's a nuclear family and it is good.
Hey mike! I know this will probably be a video later but it’s really killing me and I just want to know to what extent can women have in ministry! For example, can they be a youth pastor, worship leader, speak at a conference with adult males
attending, etc (or can just anyone give me insight to this question hahah!)
He probably will do a future in-depth video on this but he talked about it some in the women elders video. If I understood his position correctly women can teach in and speak to mixed-gender church gatherings so women can do all of the examples you gave.
Same. It almost feels like he's avoiding the question. I love how in depth he goes but there are some things he says that I can't fully accept until he goes over the verses in Timothy and Corinthians. He keeps referencing them without really talking about them. I know he has a future video coming but I don't know if he realizes how important this is for women like me who feel called and lead to teach. Who am I allowed to teach? Where is the line?
@@kindlegarrett4017 that’s me too. I clearly have a teaching gift and am rapidly moving into counseling. I’ve long warned my pastor when he goes off the rails, have a book on Revelation, and post theology online for fun. I’m not looking to be over anyone but long to be heard by everyone.
That being said, my current understanding is just based on the family roles described in the Bible- The husband is the head of the wife and the wife is over the children. Therefore men can teach men, women, and children. Women can teach other women and children. Older children can teach younger children. Until proven otherwise, this is what I stand on. Pastor Mike has made really good points for women being able to do more than that but again, I can not fully accept them until he goes over those main controversial passages.
My experience with Complimentarians is that women can teach children and that's about it.
You say woman are to submit to their husbands, but you forgot to read the whole chapter starting at the beginning. It says that husbands are to submit ti their wives! It continues that men are also to love their wives, like Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. That means to be willing to die for them. To die to our selfish desires so that you wife can benefit. These are the first things. They are written first because they are more important. A woman can easily submit to any husband who has done these things first. To control your wife by telling her what she must do by beating her over the head with the Bible is a sin. And to use the word of God contrary to how it is written is blasphemy. These are the words given by the Holy Spirit and are Holy!
Galatians 3:28 It is an extremely powerful verse, unfortunately misunderstood often.
Obviously it doesn't make everyone the same thing or an amalgamation, we are still all different. The beauty of the meaning is we are equal in Christ while being different parts, having different roles.
Appreciate the time you spent on this. I'm still watching the vid but I would almost equate this to we, men, saying, "The bible says the body of Christ is also the bride of Christ " Last time I checked I'm a man, and NOT a physical bride, so we know this needs to be understood spiritually just like women need to know that "sonship" isn't a textual mistake because the bible is sexist, but actually had important meaning that needs to be understood spiritually.
As a complementarian woman, I encourage all my sisters in Christ to wear head coverings. At the very least do a deep study of 1 Corinthians 11. Don't read just commentaries, but read books about head coverings, especially church history. The appeal of creation used in 1 Timothy is the same used in 1 Corinthians 11. The Holy Spirit is really working through me personally on this issue, and encouraging me to share!
Bless you, sister. i encourage you to persist. No persuasive exegesis was ever presented for changing Christian practice on this matter, and I am convinced that the practical harmful consequences have been great.
@Deborah Faith Thompson Head Covering: A Forgotten Christian Practice for Modern Times
This is the book I'm currently reading and it's extremely helpful and easy to read.
I was raised by atheist parents who thought Christians were 'wack jobs'. MANY Christians misrepresent God, but that doesn't mean I should go against his Word.
I hope you find this helpful and you read the book and pray to God for wisdom and understanding. God bless you.
@@conceptualclarity it's a true blessing from God that He gives women a practical outward sign to show submissivness for Him and men of our congregations.
Question/Observation: All of the verses telling women to be submissive or subject are telling them to be so to their husbands, not to men in general. How is that reconciled in the complementarian view in the context of women in leadership?
Also, if we put these verses in context of the curse at the fall where God says that woman's "desire will be for [her] husband, and he will rule over [her]," couldn't those verses simply be prescribing Godly conduct? As opposed to God-given hierarchy outside of marriage? After all, after Paul tells women to submit or be subject to, he describes the same to the men by instructing them to love their wives as Christ loves the church. He also instructs all Christians to submit to one another in brotherly love. So are men exempt from submitting to women? Absolutely not.
My personal view is that women should not be lead pastors of a church because it's inconsistent with the representation of Christ and the church which is also represented by marriage. However, if a woman is in a position of leadership under the pastor or alongside other men, it doesn't break that design.
I agree with Mike. This is an issue that does not condemn and should not be a deal-breaker.
I live in an area where some would claim that the Word of God is "dead" when read by a woman where men are present.
Here’s the biblical passage that should answer to your first question:
1 Timothy 2:9-15 9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
You can see that in this it is directed towards woman who believe and seems to be general in that sense. So this text seems to apply to every woman believer, regardless of status. And also states the roles of man and woman without the regard of any status and shows that this was from the beginning.
@@Juduh thank you for the Biblical response! My issue with taking this passage prescriptively, is Paul's use of "I do not allow" and "I want", which can give an indication of personal preference as opposed to God-given command. We know that women are not saved by childbearing, nor are they blessed only by that. His emphasis is on living in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Paul talks about this also in 1 Corinthians 11. He lays out that the man is the head of woman and why. But then he also goes on to say, "nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?" I do believe that the head covering in this case was a representation of authority, and that it was custom to cover a woman's head to show that she was under the authority of her husband or father. The chapter before discusses other issues and how to handle disagreements in theology, and the chapter after discusses use of gifts, which addresses "brothers and sisters." This is where it seems Paul is saying this isn't a primary or even secondary issue, but rather to "judge in yourself."
I don't normally use KJV, but did for your sake.
@@somebodyinparticular5951 I do not subscribe to only observing the KJV, but it is probably good for congruency so thank you. Look at what authority Paul has as an apostle, remember these are the people that would go on to write the very Word of God. And as the Word states 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
And notice that Christ also quotes psalms written by David and states essentially states the Holy Ghost work in/through Him and therefore it was used as the Word of God (Mark 12:36). In this passage, Paul does not say judge for yourself, which would be where your view point would fall short. But I’m fact He states the original creation and order of God to show why what He is saying is not based on Himself but on the authority of God our Father. Also remember He is and elder and and apostle walking in the power and authority given Him by God.
With those things working in conjunction, this passage seems not be be a decide for your self or an I think. But rather brought with the authority of God the Father and the Holy Ghost.
@@Juduh I'm in agreement with you on the authority of Paul's apostleship and infallibility of God's Word. And I have no authority to say that this passage is not good for teaching or anything. I am suggesting, however, that this passage may be contextual to the situations that Paul found himself in. I am not a Jew or Seventh Day Adventist, so I do not believe I am under Jewish law. Those laws and directions are God-breathed, relevant and quoted by Christ Himself, but also contextual. Paul's personally specific description in 1 Timothy 2 points to this being the case.
The entirety of 1 Corinthians 11, and the rest of the letter in context with the entirety of the Bible, must be taken into account. Reading the order of creation and stopping there is to ignore the rest of Paul's writings. And he is pretty authoritative ;)
@Somebody in Particular - even the verses in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 that King Judah provided above.....the words for "man" and "woman" are the exact same words as for "husband" and "wife". It's simply the choice of the translator to chose man/woman, but it can just as legitimately be translated as husband/wife. Additionally, notice that in verse 15 "SHE" shall be saved in childbearing? Well, the most recent "she" in those verses was not "all women", but was Eve specifically. Some think that "childbearing" should be translated more like "the birth of the child", which would be a direct reference to Jesus. This makes much more sense, since, as you noted females are not actually saved through childbearing. I think there is a lot going on in these verses that is skipped over by a lot of people who just want all women to be quiet.....
15:24 and in the darkness, binds them...
Wow the comments sections of these videos can get WEIRD 😂. Thank you for this awesome series, Mike. I'm learning a lot and very much appreciate a deep dive into scriptures like this.