I love that Hackman tells Washington that to get his own boat he should do his job and not try to impress Hackman. Washington does his job, goes directly against Hackman, and gets his boat.
I served as an engineer onboard Vanguard class submarines around 10 years ago and they love showing this movie, because of the scenario and how it lays out the escalation from 4SQ to 1SQ (it is pretty accurate and easy to follow). Generally we accept that in this case the XO is 100% correct regardless, you can see the CO's point and why there is worry and fear about what might be happening but there are reasons the message has to be verified and why both officers must agree to launch. Of course if it was a real scenario people could be irrational and turn against what they have been trained to do, but by the book there isn't really a question there. I also like that they show who is holding the keys and that the missiles can be launched from two different locations within the sub. There are a couple of things different for either dramatic reasons or that the American navy operate slightly differently to the British, we don't have a speech to the crew before patrols, we don't salute inside or onboard especially if we or the officer aren't wearing headgear, a 65 day patrol is shorter than the three months we would do maybe due to man power and limited SSBN's. When they float the bouy (they pronounce it Boo'ey, we pronounce it like Boy), it is an alternative method of receiving incoming messages but in the scenario in this movie it's not likely we would have done the same. There are several other methods, you could argue they were pressed for time? But it is a noisy process when it works normally, you really wouldn't want to be doing it when being chased by an Akula. Again I can't speak for American subs, but the Akula was a scary submarine because Russian submarine technology is some of the most advanced and they have access to masses of titanium which is in shorter supply and far more expensive elsewhere... a submarine made from steel can dive about half as deep if they're lucky so for the Akula it's a huge advantage to just be able to dive deeper. They can dive well below a lot of submarines "hull crush" depth, a term which is as terrifying as it sounds. :)
Float the buoy, means to release the floatation device attached to the communications antenna, on a cable, so that it can get nearer the surface to receive incoming messages - like the Emergency Action Message that the XO noticed was incoming. Unfortunately for them, while trying to remain silent in the proximity of the Russian sub, the winch that was unrolling the cable for the buoy made noticable sounds while spinning the cable out, and the Russian sub was able to detect their location.
Saw this in the theatre back in '95. Still remember how tense I felt during the back and forth battle for power of that sub. Also remember the surprise I got when I saw Ricky Schroeder's little part in it. (The guy who had to close the hatch on his mates.)
Another good Hackman thriller from that era is Enemy of the State co-starring Will Smith in an early, impressive role. Another good Hackman thriller from about a decade before is No Way Out starring him and Kevin costner.
Both No Way Out & Enemy of the State are great movies. Hackman & Will Smith are a lot of fun together. No Way Out was the first time I really started to see Kevin Costner as a leading man. I remembered him from the movies American Flyers & Fandango (both great films in their own rights), but No Way Out was definitely a big step up for him.
I had a friend that had just retired from NSA and was working in DC when Enemy of the State came out. I asked him how accurate it was, he said that some of the things were done up for visual movie look but everything in that movie they could do 10 years earlier. Imagine what they can do now
Two more recco's: One VERY good Hackman movie is Mississppi Burning. Him and Willem DaFoe are FBI agents tasked with going into the Jim Crow south and arrest the men responsible for the murder of 3 civil rights workers. A different recco for a good sub movie is Enemy Below :) WW2 Robert Mitchum and Curt Jurgens :)
I forgot how good this movie is. The tribunal scene definitely deserves to be in there, imho. It solidifies the idea that the dilemma these people were faced with went all the way to the top. It wasn't just contained to the ring little submarine world we'd been stuck in for the duration of the film.
-Tarantino was brought in to punch up some of the dialogue. His main contribution was the comic book argument between the enlisted men. -The scene where Hunter was shown training as a boxer was paid off when Ramsey punched him twice and got no response. Hunter could have easily taken out Ramsey physically, but it would have turned the Con of the sub into a blood bath and he showed restraint. -the Lipizzaner stallions are actually from Austria, and were featured in the classic film "The Sound of Music"
Tarantino's writing style is really evident in the part where one of the sailors says "Hey, what about that Quentin Tarantino f***er? Is he a cinematic f***ing genius, or what?" and the other one says "Oh man, he's so f***ing great! His m*****f***ing movies are all f***ing masterpieces!"
I can remember watching this and feeling that the scene between Denzel and Hackman regarding the color of the Lipizzan horses was out of place. Hackman trying to make a point by making it clear that these most highly trained horses are white. I just felt it unnecessary to, in any context, make this about race. It should have just been about the two MEN and race should not even come into the equation. Just my opinion
Denzel's character was an idealist like you while Hackman's was a realist. That's one of the things that make them different. It was during a moment of calm between them, acknowledging a subtext between the two that was likely in the minds of 90s audiences. This came out just one week before Die Hard with a Vengeance.
The last five minutes of this movie gave us the chance to squeeze in legendary actor Jason Robards as the judge. I would highly recommend the comedy 'Parenthood' directed by Ron Howard starring Steve Martin, Rick Moranis, Jason Robards, Keanu Reeves, Joaquin Phoenix, Mary Steenburgen, and Dianne Wiest.
For me, easily Hans Zimmer's best score. It was also used in trailers such as for Independence Day, which has a great score by David Arnold as well. In terms of performances, I think Hackman had the edge since his character is written as the legendary one while Denzel's is the everyman. At the same time, one could say that it's a testament to Denzel's acting that he elevated his character to convincingly stand toe-to-toe against Hackman's. I feel that an acting duel like this is in the same tradition as Heat (1995) and even Face/Off (1997). The supporting characters were utilized so well, forcing them to make decisions that will determine the fates of two powerful nations. Definitely continue w/ more of Tony Scott's filmography: Top Gun, Days of Thunder, Enemy of the State, Spy Game, etc...
Let me preface this by saying I served aboard the USS Robert E. Lee, SSBN-601, blue crew, so I've had a lot of discussions about what might happen if we were given the order to launch. I saw this movie when it first came out and have only seen it once. I don't recall all of the details, but I felt at the time that Hackman's character was right. His choice was the choice of military reality. The XO's position was the "feel good" position and perhaps a rational position, but it's how you lose wars, not win them. In all honesty though, if I were in the film, I would side with the XO while believing the captain was right. I was a dangerous breed of sailor. I was a nuclear-train engineer. It's one of the few positions where you are trained to think, not just blindly follow orders... and that's dangerous for any military organization. It may not be perfect for military discipline, but it is probably why no US Navy nuclear sub has ever had a reactor accident. Considering the conditions, that's an amazing record. I expect the back half of the boat (engineers) sided with the XO and the front half (everyone else) sided with the CO.
I appreciate the insight. If you serve the board USS Robert E Lee, you could have served at all sorts of fun times like the Cuban Missile crisis or the assassination attempts against Ford and Reagan.
and then you have everyone else that is just following orders as they've been trained to do. I would agree with you, Hackman's character was following a precise set of protocols under the premise that they were the only ones remaining capable of a strike, that all other assets in the area were taken out by other Akula's. Washington's character was the "feel good" character, the "let's do what is morally right" type. But in this scenario, this indecision would not have played out the same way in real life. It's almost as if they made it a point early on to mention that Hunter is a Harvard graduate, while Ramsey is not.
I served as an engineer and you're right I would back the XO, it's the by the book and rational decision. People might protest in the IRL scenario but there are rules for a reason and you're protected by the rules for as long as you follow them.
Fascinating insight and completely understandable--your position regarding the scenario, that is. When you're expected to have to give orders that will result in people dying, and maybe even the outcome of a whole armed conflict, you HAVE to be able to trust that those orders will be followed exactly and carried out to the best of the unit's ability. If it was a total coin toss whether your orders would even be listened to, basically no battle would ever be won. So, militarily, makes absolute sense. BUT, that doesn't mean those orders are necessarily the right thing to do, nor are morally or ethically justifiable, so when you deal with the issue on a philosophical level, you have the freedom to be able to say no, to draw those lines intellectually. I think the incompatibility of the two positions--where both have a necessary place in the discourse but are in clear conflict with one another and no capacity for compromise--is what makes it such a fascinating debate.
Great movie. Damn I miss Hackman on screen. He's my all time fave actor and I'd watch him in anything. But by all accounts he's having a lovely retirement so hope he keeps on enjoying it for many more years to come.
Gene Hackman has always been my favorite actor since I was 9 years old and watched him in Superman. He always brings 200% to every part he plays, and you put him in a film with an actor as powerful as Denzel Washington, and there is no way you can lose.
@10:10, in submarine warfare, any sounds can give you away. When the winch malfunctioned, it made a loud noise, alerting the enemy submarine and it swung around to fire its torpedoes.
Also they had to float the buoy to have a antenna that will get the EAM or go shallow to use the VLF antenna. In short signals don’t go through water and you have to get something above the waterline to receive your message.
Enemy Of The State was already requested so I'll recommend another Hackman great, Heist (although I've only seen the latter half, for some reason I could never see the whole thing)! I'll keep recommending Fallen as a great Denzel Washington film. I think that was the first movie he and John Goodman starred in together.
@Gerald H I am not a Patreon. I am thinking for the best Das Boot experience Shan can get and this is, without any doubt, with german audio, whatever the movie cut is (director or miniserie). The english dubing sounds like a cartoon.
@Gerald H I know the actors dubbed themselves, still I found the dubbing cartoonish on some parts. For me, there is no point watching Das Boot if it is not in german. TBR Schmitt reacted to Das Boot with english subtitles and there was no problem (probably some editing work there of course). In any case, Shan can do whatever he want and I will be there for the reaction. :)
I take your point about the tribunal, necessary or not. If this was strictly a morality question, then the ambiguity for the audience would be ok, but for me I see that in the military it should be clarified. A resolution should be stated, orders should not have ambiguity on the front line.
I agree. One of the points of the movie was to show the potential for disaster given the processes the military had in place with regard to nuclear launch procedures. The tribunal scene was necessary because it showed the military recognizing the procedures needed to be reworked.
Lol...I remember when this came out in the 90,s. It had such an impact scaring people the military came out and said this would never happen due to the safeguards that are in place. It was important they did that. It shows the impact that movies can have.
This. Hackman was 100% wrong, I cannot see the ambiguity here at all. He was also far too happy to fire nuclear missiles at anybody, for my liking. His actions were psychopathic in nature. His amusement at dropping bombs on Japanese women and children suggests this in the earliest scenes. He ignored the system in place. He refused to check on the partial message. He physically assaulted his XO. He also ran a drill while one of his men was dying and that fire COULD have spread. I have never known ANYONE take Hackman's side in this film, this is a surprise to me. The Navy protected Hackman after he nearly started a nuclear war. Like a true psychopath, he still couldn't admit he was wrong at the end but his recommendation suggests he knew he was wrong and Denzel was right. Hackman was a WW2/Cold War anachronism who should have retired long before.
To me, Hackman struck me as obviously right, but, that the movie did him a disservice in how they conveyed it in the story telling. He's not a very likeable character. He doesn't need to be. In many ways, his hard-ass-ness _makes_ him likeable to some people.
@@5ilver42 His character didn't bother me until he wanted control of the missiles. That was the point of the whole movie. That is why they have two keys. Both had to agree. If he had a single key and the decision was his alone then it would have been a different movie.
"I'll see you in my dreams." That line is so smooth. Also on a side note, I just came from another channel with a reaction to Training Day. It's neck-breakingly jarring to witness the differences in Denzel's character and (to some extent) his acting in these movies. Still, at a glance you'd think these movies couldn't be more different, but in a way this is Denzel's character's "training day" ....
James vs Cinema had Training Day and Shaun, you really need to put Training Day (2001), on your list. Washington won the Academy Award For best actor as Washington plays a complete opposite in any of his before character. There's also a recent movie called The Little Things (2021), with Washington, Rami Malek, (who of course played Freddie Murcury in Bohemian Rhapsody), and Jared Leto. If you can, get the DVD as it has a little thing about Denzel Washington playing different kinds of cops no one but Al Pacino had done called The Different Shades Of Blue (referring to the title, Shades Of Grey) how Washington played really different cops.
@@scottjo63 Yeah, I know which channel I watched. ;) Now I don't think Shan would mind at all, but I think it's a common courtesy not to "plug" (however indirectly) other channels in his comment section... I'd love to see a collab at some point with Shan and James though, let's make it happen..! :)
I watched this again last night to prep for this reaction. I'd totally forgotten about the lovely little cameo by Jason Robards ("All the President's Men") at the end.
A rather stacked supporting cast as well with Viggo Mortenson and James Gandolfini. ( Aragorn and Tony Soprano.) Even Rick Schroeder with a moment of high drama.
I love Hackman’s speech to the crew. It makes the crew aware of the gravity of the situation, what is expected of them and instills pride. “GO BAMA!” “ROLL TIDE!”
The explosion, or rather implosion of the Akula submarine was absolutely excellent. How did they accomplish this? Inside the miniature model were a series of glass jars which had all the air evacuated. When the small charges were set off to simulate the torpedo explosion and the thin model hull breached, the glass jars shattered, and the negative pressure caused a visible implosion, as if a submarine were crushed under the weight of deep water.
Another 2 absolutely amazing submarine movies worth watch are Das Boot and U-571. Both are definitely amazing. I would say Das Boot is more of a classic, but I am consistently surprised at how few reactors look at U-571
I suspect it’s because it was vilified for not being historically accurate - but I never felt it was _trying_ to be accurate, just a patriotic feel-good action flick. Some people don’t know how to just sit down and be entertained. 🙄
Tony Scott (RIP) teamed up with Washington for five or six movies, my favorite of which is 'Man on Fire.' Washington plays a downward spiraling ex-CIA agent who gets a job as a body guard to Dakota Fanning, the daughter of a wealthy business man in Mexico City.
If you love submarine sets you're gonna think the world of Das Boot. Easily the best submarine film ever. Like The Thin Red Line, there is no clear enemy, and you gotta appreciate that. Also, don't remember if you watched James Cameron's The Abyss? Amazing underwater sets and miniatures.
I would recommend "The Bedford Incident" to you. It has some similarities but at a smaller scale - one US destroyer vs one diesel Russian sub in the arctic. The cast interactions are a bit more complex. For example, the captain has a former U boat captain onboard as an advisor
13:37 Water doesn't compress so even though the detonation wasn't directly against the hull, it was close enough that the water being forced away from the detonation still hit the ship hard enough to rupture pipes.
Gene Hackman is one of my favorite actors. If you haven't seen these, check these out: - The Firm - The French Connection - No Way Out (great neo-noir with Kevin Costner, based on a classic film 'The Big Clock', which is another great film). - The Birdcage - a great comedic performance.
Ye I understand your misgivings about the last 5 minutes but it’s always good to see the legendary Jason Robards! One of my favorite roles he played is in “Once upon a Tim in the West “ Cheyenne, thanks again and I believe Tony Scott directed “Man on Fire “ another Denzel classic one of his best
And another Jason Robards role where he won the Academy Award For best supporting actor was All The President's Men (1976), playing the true character Ben Bradlee, the executive editor at The Washington Post, from 1965 to 1991, before Tom Hanks did in The Post (2017).
Crimson Tide is based, at least partially, on real events and so the tribunal in the end is necessary. As the characters are returning from the sea to the land there must necessarily be two resolutions, at the very least for realism as the tribunal could easily have come to a different conclusion than they had on the sub. That they were the same is almost irrelevant, both characters may have resolved the issue in a moment of crisis but still had to face judgment once the crisis had passed. It also shows that the conflict was inevitable, as it was based on a flaw in the system revealed through their opposing interpretations.
Crimson Tide is also ghost written by Quentin Tarantino who was brought on board to beef up some sections of dialogue although he is not credited on screen.
Seen this movie a hundred times never noticed the difference with the lighting on the characters ! Great review sir keep up the good work ! .... I would love for you to do a clear and present danger if you haven't seen it.
Man, Shan gives some of the best, most detailed critical analysis of films and one of the best reaction CZcamsrs. Why doesn't his channel have at least 100k subscribers?????
They're incomparable to begin with, each a master in their own right. Kirby is like a godfather, A Da Vinci or a Michelangelo, while Moebius is like the brilliant outsider, the hermit or savant, like a Van Gogh. Just because they both drew the Silver Surfer is not enough reason to try to compare them, because it's impossible, I for one, at least don't want to.
Me too, and the message that just because someone is wrong about pop culture doesn't mean you have to argue with them is even more relevant in the internet age.
@@adamwarlock1 true and that's the XO point, I'm sure the two shipmates were just getting on each other's nerves and maybe were just young guys on their first time out to sea.
I worked on construction of three classes of subs from '90 to '94 so I watched this in the theater. I like plots that involve difficult decisions, or conflicts based on disagreement over what is right. I didn't remember that James Gandolfini and Viggo Mortenson were in this.
"Fallen" (1998) with Denzel Washington is one of my favorite Denzel movies and a hidden gem. (Crime thriller with a twist) Das Boot is a must-see Shan. "The Prophecy" (1995) with Christopher Walken is great movie, can't vouch for any of the sequels though.
A couple of other films that Gene Hackman was in that don't seem to be mentioned are "Superman", the beginning of the modern day superhero movies, and "Hoosiers". And a film Denzel Washington was in that should be watched is "Glory".
You may want to try "U-571" & "Below" for good submarine dramas. And yes, Hackman & Denzel are dynamic together & Tony Scott directing is an added bonus. Tony Scott was a great director. Jack Kirby`s Silver Surfer is My personal favorite but Moebius has his charm as well.
I would also recommend "The Enemy Below" which we even hear them mention in this film. it becomes a chess game between the two commanders and it is played brilliantly
Another excellent reaction and analysis, Shan, thanks for sharing! Crimson Tide is a great film, perhaps not quite at the overall A-Tier level that becomes a frequent re-watch, but the performances and the score are absolutely top notch. The way you called out the color / lighting gave me a deeper appreciation of that aspect of the cinematography. I agree with you about the final scene. It's tricky trying to find the proper balance between allowing viewers to form their own conclusions and providing them directly in the film, and I think this was an example of a scene that could've been removed to strengthen the lasting impact of the movie.
If you're looking for further proof of Gene Hackman's talent, look no further than David Mamet's 'Heist'. Some of the greatest dialogue of any film ever. Pair that with the sublime acting of Hackman, Delroy Lindo, Sam Rockwell, and Danny DeVito, and you've got all the makings of an underrated classic!
Malcolm X., Eastern Promises, Hoosiers (not because it’s better than Mississippi Burning or The French Connection, but just because I love it so much).
18:10. That 3 minutes to me is the greatest part of this movie. It says everything about the captain and where his head was at the whole time that even under those he gave them those 3 minutes to prove their point.
Gene Hackman not-to-miss film, The French Connection. Also, The Conversation. This film reminds me of the Caine Mutiny with Bogart but I've never compared the two.
Shan, do you think every viewer will see both men as both right and wrong as you did? Were you satisfied that the board came to the same conclusion? Perhaps that final scene was put there for viewers who were squarely on one side of the fence. Perhaps it was just to provide the denouement satisfaction for those like you. Perhaps it was more of a setup for the command recommendation, since it would be sudden and out of place for Hackman to just mention it during their parting. Great review of a great film. You sure know the ins and outs of cinematic presentation, all the commentary about the sets and especially lighting. I appreciate your insights there.
@@paulhewes7333 There are many great songs on that soundtrack, like Journey to the Line or Light. And unreleased tracks you can only find as bootlegs right here on YT. The Thin Red Line is such an unique and amazing film, soundtrack included. The only music of Zimmer that I know of which he tours regularly with. You go to a Zimmer In Concert concert, chances are extremely high you will hear music from The Thin Red Line. Yet there is no reaction video to the movie on CZcams and nobody born after the 90's seem to know about its soundtrack. Such a tradegy.
@@paulhewes7333 It's not conventional cinema, no. But that doesn't make it bad. I wrote an essay back in film school on what makes it great. I remember also how my director teacher used to lecture that while Saving Private Ryan is the perfect technical movie, it's very simple and manipulative with its pro-american propaganda. Americans good, Germans bad. That's fine too, most movies are designed to manipulate you one way or another, but that's why I love The Thin Red Line. It's more anti-war than war, although I wouldn't call it anti-war either. More like a philosophical piece on man versus nature an all those questions which it ask, but doesn't answer. I like Malick's way of constructing movies. I find it superior to conventional cinema. But it's not for everyone, no. That's art 🙃
During the Cuban Missile Crisis a somewhat similar incident happened. A Soviet submarine B-59 was being tracked and coerced to surface by the US Navy. On board were torpedoes with nuclear warheads and normally it took the authorization of the captain and chief political officer to launch, but on the B-59 was also the commander of the submarine detachment, whose authorization was also required. While the other officers were convinced a shooting war had began, the commander didn't agree to launch. In the end they surfaced and headed back to the Soviet Union, as it came clear it was merely warning shots. While it might seem crazy to give such authority to officers, at the time submarines were seen as important part of the MAD doctrine, since if all nuclear launches were under the direct control of the president, you just needed to take out the president with a surprise attack and your enemy could not retaliate. Dr. Strangelove explores what happens when an officer disregards normal chain of command and authorizes the use of nuclear weapons on their own.
Yea I would say this film took some inspiration from that incident. Googled Vasili Arkhipov.. thank God cooler heads prevailed, and he was able to prevent a nuclear showdown.
I recall Quentin Tarantino was called in to punch-up the dialog. This was 3 years after Reservoir Dogs. It was Tarantino who inserted the horse dialog.
The first rated-R movie I ever got to see in the theater. So I may have some extra nostalgia attached to this movie for that reason; however, I legitimately think this is one of the most underrated gems in the thriller/military movie genre(s). The cast is great, the music is great, the effects still look fantastic, and the battle of wills between Denzel and Hackman is enthralling. I think it says a lot for a movie that contains some pretty big and pretty impressive action moments, and yet the most entertaining scene in the film for me is a bunch of guys sitting around a table talking about the nature of War. I watch a lot of movies, but I actually don't own a very big collection. But you better believe I have both a DVD and a Blu-Ray copy of this movie at home.
Two unrelated suggestions: - Little Big Man - Argo . . . Though one could argue Little Big Man is related by way of Dustin Hoffman being nearly-lifelong friends with Gene Hackman (as well as roommates) as well as Robert Duvall…
It's interesting seeing people's reactions to this film; more specifically, whether they believe the Captain had a point. It scares me to even think that some people would side with the Captain. We're not talking about a question whether to launch a standard missile. This is a nuclear missile that would've started a nuclear war, i.e. the end of the world. You don't launch a nuclear missile unless you're absolutely sure and you have the most updated information on the situation, something that was impossible for a submarine crew that lost radio contact with the outside world. There is no question who was right here. It's not a grey area. The Captain was wrong, plain and simple.
Its not the Captains duty to make decisions on wether to launch or not to launch tho, he is supposed to follow orders. If he gets the order to launch, thats what he is supposed to do. If he gets an incomplete order, thats no order at all so the previous order still stands. Ofcourse with nuclear weapons that might have major consequences, but the mistake was made by those who issued the order to launch, not by the captain who was trying to do his job following the orders and rules he was given. Ofc, replacing his XO to launch against his will was on him and against orders, from that point on he was in the wrong.
Wrong. The submarine is supposed to carry out the orders to launch. In real life, there is no procedure for canceling a nuclear launch. It’s not something the US President is supposed to do a last minute recall on.
The tribunal being in Pearl Harbor is a nice callback to the beginning where they each make a case about dropping and not dropping the bombs on Japan. And now, they're essentially making that same case to the tribunal.
Shan, another amusing factoid: because the US Air Force Strategic Air Command and ICBM missile command were frustrated with the limited authority to launch when the SIOP was revised, the 8 digit launch codes for all Minuteman III missiles was “0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0” until 2003. “Command and Control” by Eric Schlosser is a great book and documentary covering the sheer insanity that is the ongoing battle between military and civilian authority to control nuclear weapons, as well as the near-miss disasters such as the Damascus Incident.
I love that Hackman tells Washington that to get his own boat he should do his job and not try to impress Hackman. Washington does his job, goes directly against Hackman, and gets his boat.
I watched this masterpiece few times and i never recognized the colors represent their sides as well until you said Shan! So thank you! :)
I served as an engineer onboard Vanguard class submarines around 10 years ago and they love showing this movie, because of the scenario and how it lays out the escalation from 4SQ to 1SQ (it is pretty accurate and easy to follow). Generally we accept that in this case the XO is 100% correct regardless, you can see the CO's point and why there is worry and fear about what might be happening but there are reasons the message has to be verified and why both officers must agree to launch. Of course if it was a real scenario people could be irrational and turn against what they have been trained to do, but by the book there isn't really a question there. I also like that they show who is holding the keys and that the missiles can be launched from two different locations within the sub. There are a couple of things different for either dramatic reasons or that the American navy operate slightly differently to the British, we don't have a speech to the crew before patrols, we don't salute inside or onboard especially if we or the officer aren't wearing headgear, a 65 day patrol is shorter than the three months we would do maybe due to man power and limited SSBN's.
When they float the bouy (they pronounce it Boo'ey, we pronounce it like Boy), it is an alternative method of receiving incoming messages but in the scenario in this movie it's not likely we would have done the same. There are several other methods, you could argue they were pressed for time? But it is a noisy process when it works normally, you really wouldn't want to be doing it when being chased by an Akula. Again I can't speak for American subs, but the Akula was a scary submarine because Russian submarine technology is some of the most advanced and they have access to masses of titanium which is in shorter supply and far more expensive elsewhere... a submarine made from steel can dive about half as deep if they're lucky so for the Akula it's a huge advantage to just be able to dive deeper. They can dive well below a lot of submarines "hull crush" depth, a term which is as terrifying as it sounds. :)
Gene Hackman is one of my all time favourite actors, love his style. Watch him in Mississippi Burning if you haven't seen it yet.
MS. TESCHMACHERRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He’s never done a bad movie in my mind.
Also The French Connection and The Conversation.
And "The Firm".
@@stevemccullagh36 absolutely, stunning performance
Float the buoy, means to release the floatation device attached to the communications antenna, on a cable, so that it can get nearer the surface to receive incoming messages - like the Emergency Action Message that the XO noticed was incoming. Unfortunately for them, while trying to remain silent in the proximity of the Russian sub, the winch that was unrolling the cable for the buoy made noticable sounds while spinning the cable out, and the Russian sub was able to detect their location.
A masterpiece of tension. I watched this first on a flight, and god damn it was enthralling.
Saw this in the theatre back in '95. Still remember how tense I felt during the back and forth battle for power of that sub. Also remember the surprise I got when I saw Ricky Schroeder's little part in it. (The guy who had to close the hatch on his mates.)
Oh man Oh man, Shan if you get the opportunity, please consider watching Das Boot, thanks for the upload!
And don't miss the sequel, Das Other Boot.
Thank you thank you. I've been requesting this for months. U-571 with Matthew McConaughey is pretty good too
@@porflepopnecker4376 Is that Citizen Kane on your pic?
Another good Hackman thriller from that era is Enemy of the State co-starring Will Smith in an early, impressive role. Another good Hackman thriller from about a decade before is No Way Out starring him and Kevin costner.
Both No Way Out & Enemy of the State are great movies. Hackman & Will Smith are a lot of fun together.
No Way Out was the first time I really started to see Kevin Costner as a leading man. I remembered him from the movies American Flyers & Fandango (both great films in their own rights), but No Way Out was definitely a big step up for him.
No Way Out surprised me, didn't expect much from it but it was very enjoyable.
I had a friend that had just retired from NSA and was working in DC when Enemy of the State came out. I asked him how accurate it was, he said that some of the things were done up for visual movie look but everything in that movie they could do 10 years earlier. Imagine what they can do now
No Way Out is an underappreciated gem.
Two more recco's: One VERY good Hackman movie is Mississppi Burning. Him and Willem DaFoe are FBI agents tasked with going into the Jim Crow south and arrest the men responsible for the murder of 3 civil rights workers.
A different recco for a good sub movie is Enemy Below :) WW2 Robert Mitchum and Curt Jurgens :)
I forgot how good this movie is.
The tribunal scene definitely deserves to be in there, imho. It solidifies the idea that the dilemma these people were faced with went all the way to the top. It wasn't just contained to the ring little submarine world we'd been stuck in for the duration of the film.
-Tarantino was brought in to punch up some of the dialogue. His main contribution was the comic book argument between the enlisted men.
-The scene where Hunter was shown training as a boxer was paid off when Ramsey punched him twice and got no response. Hunter could have easily taken out Ramsey physically, but it would have turned the Con of the sub into a blood bath and he showed restraint.
-the Lipizzaner stallions are actually from Austria, and were featured in the classic film "The Sound of Music"
Tarantino's writing style is really evident in the part where one of the sailors says "Hey, what about that Quentin Tarantino f***er? Is he a cinematic f***ing genius, or what?" and the other one says "Oh man, he's so f***ing great! His m*****f***ing movies are all f***ing masterpieces!"
@@porflepopnecker4376 F*** in A
Tarantino's other contributions were Denzel's Star Trek speech and the submarine movie trivia game that Viggo & Gandolfini were playing.
Lipizanners are slovenian horses trained in Austria ...just saying
I can remember watching this and feeling that the scene between Denzel and Hackman regarding the color of the Lipizzan horses was out of place. Hackman trying to make a point by making it clear that these most highly trained horses are white. I just felt it unnecessary to, in any context, make this about race. It should have just been about the two MEN and race should not even come into the equation. Just my opinion
Denzel's character was an idealist like you while Hackman's was a realist. That's one of the things that make them different. It was during a moment of calm between them, acknowledging a subtext between the two that was likely in the minds of 90s audiences. This came out just one week before Die Hard with a Vengeance.
The last five minutes of this movie gave us the chance to squeeze in legendary actor Jason Robards as the judge. I would highly recommend the comedy 'Parenthood' directed by Ron Howard starring Steve Martin, Rick Moranis, Jason Robards, Keanu Reeves, Joaquin Phoenix, Mary Steenburgen, and Dianne Wiest.
That's quite a cast. Don't think I've seen that one.
I believe he also played a main role as a doctor in the miniseries " the day after"
Is it just me or does he look like Max Von Sydow?
For me, easily Hans Zimmer's best score. It was also used in trailers such as for Independence Day, which has a great score by David Arnold as well. In terms of performances, I think Hackman had the edge since his character is written as the legendary one while Denzel's is the everyman. At the same time, one could say that it's a testament to Denzel's acting that he elevated his character to convincingly stand toe-to-toe against Hackman's. I feel that an acting duel like this is in the same tradition as Heat (1995) and even Face/Off (1997). The supporting characters were utilized so well, forcing them to make decisions that will determine the fates of two powerful nations. Definitely continue w/ more of Tony Scott's filmography: Top Gun, Days of Thunder, Enemy of the State, Spy Game, etc...
Let me preface this by saying I served aboard the USS Robert E. Lee, SSBN-601, blue crew, so I've had a lot of discussions about what might happen if we were given the order to launch. I saw this movie when it first came out and have only seen it once. I don't recall all of the details, but I felt at the time that Hackman's character was right. His choice was the choice of military reality. The XO's position was the "feel good" position and perhaps a rational position, but it's how you lose wars, not win them. In all honesty though, if I were in the film, I would side with the XO while believing the captain was right.
I was a dangerous breed of sailor. I was a nuclear-train engineer. It's one of the few positions where you are trained to think, not just blindly follow orders... and that's dangerous for any military organization. It may not be perfect for military discipline, but it is probably why no US Navy nuclear sub has ever had a reactor accident. Considering the conditions, that's an amazing record. I expect the back half of the boat (engineers) sided with the XO and the front half (everyone else) sided with the CO.
I appreciate the insight. If you serve the board USS Robert E Lee, you could have served at all sorts of fun times like the Cuban Missile crisis or the assassination attempts against Ford and Reagan.
and then you have everyone else that is just following orders as they've been trained to do. I would agree with you, Hackman's character was following a precise set of protocols under the premise that they were the only ones remaining capable of a strike, that all other assets in the area were taken out by other Akula's. Washington's character was the "feel good" character, the "let's do what is morally right" type. But in this scenario, this indecision would not have played out the same way in real life. It's almost as if they made it a point early on to mention that Hunter is a Harvard graduate, while Ramsey is not.
Like the Admiral at the end put it perfectly: They were both right and they were both wrong.
I served as an engineer and you're right I would back the XO, it's the by the book and rational decision. People might protest in the IRL scenario but there are rules for a reason and you're protected by the rules for as long as you follow them.
Fascinating insight and completely understandable--your position regarding the scenario, that is. When you're expected to have to give orders that will result in people dying, and maybe even the outcome of a whole armed conflict, you HAVE to be able to trust that those orders will be followed exactly and carried out to the best of the unit's ability. If it was a total coin toss whether your orders would even be listened to, basically no battle would ever be won. So, militarily, makes absolute sense. BUT, that doesn't mean those orders are necessarily the right thing to do, nor are morally or ethically justifiable, so when you deal with the issue on a philosophical level, you have the freedom to be able to say no, to draw those lines intellectually. I think the incompatibility of the two positions--where both have a necessary place in the discourse but are in clear conflict with one another and no capacity for compromise--is what makes it such a fascinating debate.
Great movie. Damn I miss Hackman on screen. He's my all time fave actor and I'd watch him in anything. But by all accounts he's having a lovely retirement so hope he keeps on enjoying it for many more years to come.
I believe he paints now
Gene Hackman has always been my favorite actor since I was 9 years old and watched him in Superman. He always brings 200% to every part he plays, and you put him in a film with an actor as powerful as Denzel Washington, and there is no way you can lose.
Mississippi burning is one of Hackmans best movies
@10:10, in submarine warfare, any sounds can give you away. When the winch malfunctioned, it made a loud noise, alerting the enemy submarine and it swung around to fire its torpedoes.
Also they had to float the buoy to have a antenna that will get the EAM or go shallow to use the VLF antenna. In short signals don’t go through water and you have to get something above the waterline to receive your message.
Enemy Of The State was already requested so I'll recommend another Hackman great, Heist (although I've only seen the latter half, for some reason I could never see the whole thing)!
I'll keep recommending Fallen as a great Denzel Washington film. I think that was the first movie he and John Goodman starred in together.
Das boot
Can't wait for "Das Boot"!
Definitely needs more exposure
me too
@Gerald H Director's cut. German audio with english subtitles. Going with anything but german audio is unacceptable.
@Gerald H I am not a Patreon. I am thinking for the best Das Boot experience Shan can get and this is, without any doubt, with german audio, whatever the movie cut is (director or miniserie). The english dubing sounds like a cartoon.
@Gerald H I know the actors dubbed themselves, still I found the dubbing cartoonish on some parts.
For me, there is no point watching Das Boot if it is not in german.
TBR Schmitt reacted to Das Boot with english subtitles and there was no problem (probably some editing work there of course).
In any case, Shan can do whatever he want and I will be there for the reaction. :)
My son goes through this stuff all the time when he's playing with his ships in the bathtub
Did he........Sink your Battleship?
I take your point about the tribunal, necessary or not. If this was strictly a morality question, then the ambiguity for the audience would be ok, but for me I see that in the military it should be clarified. A resolution should be stated, orders should not have ambiguity on the front line.
I agree. One of the points of the movie was to show the potential for disaster given the processes the military had in place with regard to nuclear launch procedures. The tribunal scene was necessary because it showed the military recognizing the procedures needed to be reworked.
Lol...I remember when this came out in the 90,s. It had such an impact scaring people the military came out and said this would never happen due to the safeguards that are in place. It was important they did that. It shows the impact that movies can have.
I never thought Hackman's character was right. Thats why they need both characters to agree to fire. Hackman's character tried to change the rules.
This. Hackman was 100% wrong, I cannot see the ambiguity here at all. He was also far too happy to fire nuclear missiles at anybody, for my liking. His actions were psychopathic in nature. His amusement at dropping bombs on Japanese women and children suggests this in the earliest scenes. He ignored the system in place. He refused to check on the partial message. He physically assaulted his XO. He also ran a drill while one of his men was dying and that fire COULD have spread. I have never known ANYONE take Hackman's side in this film, this is a surprise to me.
The Navy protected Hackman after he nearly started a nuclear war. Like a true psychopath, he still couldn't admit he was wrong at the end but his recommendation suggests he knew he was wrong and Denzel was right.
Hackman was a WW2/Cold War anachronism who should have retired long before.
To me, Hackman struck me as obviously right, but, that the movie did him a disservice in how they conveyed it in the story telling. He's not a very likeable character. He doesn't need to be. In many ways, his hard-ass-ness _makes_ him likeable to some people.
@@5ilver42 His character didn't bother me until he wanted control of the missiles. That was the point of the whole movie. That is why they have two keys. Both had to agree. If he had a single key and the decision was his alone then it would have been a different movie.
"I'll see you in my dreams."
That line is so smooth.
Also on a side note, I just came from another channel with a reaction to Training Day. It's neck-breakingly jarring to witness the differences in Denzel's character and (to some extent) his acting in these movies. Still, at a glance you'd think these movies couldn't be more different, but in a way this is Denzel's character's "training day" ....
James vs Cinema had Training Day and Shaun, you really need to put Training Day (2001), on your list. Washington won the Academy Award For best actor as Washington plays a complete opposite in any of his before character. There's also a recent movie called The Little Things (2021), with Washington, Rami Malek, (who of course played Freddie Murcury in Bohemian Rhapsody), and Jared Leto. If you can, get the DVD as it has a little thing about Denzel Washington playing different kinds of cops no one but Al Pacino had done called The Different Shades Of Blue (referring to the title, Shades Of Grey) how Washington played really different cops.
@@scottjo63 Yeah, I know which channel I watched. ;) Now I don't think Shan would mind at all, but I think it's a common courtesy not to "plug" (however indirectly) other channels in his comment section...
I'd love to see a collab at some point with Shan and James though, let's make it happen..! :)
So... Wolfgang Petersen's Das Boot next? Best submarine war film ever made?
Don't you mean Down Periscope with Kelsey Grammer?
Also U-571; with Matthew McConaughey, Bill Paxton, Harvey Keitel, Jon Bon Jovi, yeah Bon Jovi :)
I watched this again last night to prep for this reaction. I'd totally forgotten about the lovely little cameo by Jason Robards ("All the President's Men") at the end.
A rather stacked supporting cast as well with Viggo Mortenson and James Gandolfini. ( Aragorn and Tony Soprano.) Even Rick Schroeder with a moment of high drama.
Don't forget Ryan Phillipe and Steve Zahn as well..
I think you should watch No Way Out which has Kevin Costner and Gene Hackman, both much younger. I think a good thriller.
I saw this at a drive-in in Louisville Kentucky with my best friend in 1995. Loved it ever since.
Another amazing submarine movie is U571. That one is definitely worth a watch.
I love Hackman’s speech to the crew. It makes the crew aware of the gravity of the situation, what is expected of them and instills pride.
“GO BAMA!”
“ROLL TIDE!”
The explosion, or rather implosion of the Akula submarine was absolutely excellent. How did they accomplish this? Inside the miniature model were a series of glass jars which had all the air evacuated. When the small charges were set off to simulate the torpedo explosion and the thin model hull breached, the glass jars shattered, and the negative pressure caused a visible implosion, as if a submarine were crushed under the weight of deep water.
Another 2 absolutely amazing submarine movies worth watch are Das Boot and U-571. Both are definitely amazing. I would say Das Boot is more of a classic, but I am consistently surprised at how few reactors look at U-571
I suspect it’s because it was vilified for not being historically accurate - but I never felt it was _trying_ to be accurate, just a patriotic feel-good action flick. Some people don’t know how to just sit down and be entertained. 🙄
U-571 was historically flawed at its very premise and neglected the true heroes, the British navy.
Richard Griswold - Like I said. I wasn’t declaring itself to be a documentary or historically accurate.
The soundrack. The Zimmer. The epicness.
Now in line with good submarine movies, there's Down Periscope. A comedy!
I 2nd the recommend for checking out Down Periscope, its a nice breather after all this tension
Yea to me its one of those films you can watch over and over and it never gets old. Lol
Tiny Scott's "Man On Fire" is a great thriller with Denzel
Nominated for 3 Oscars:
Best Film Editing
Best Sound Editing
Best Sound Mixing.
"Das Boot" was nominated for 6 Oscars! ;)
"The Hunt for Red October" nominated for 3 Oscars
Should've been nominated for Best Score.
Tony Scott (RIP) teamed up with Washington for five or six movies, my favorite of which is 'Man on Fire.' Washington plays a downward spiraling ex-CIA agent who gets a job as a body guard to Dakota Fanning, the daughter of a wealthy business man in Mexico City.
If you love submarine sets you're gonna think the world of Das Boot. Easily the best submarine film ever. Like The Thin Red Line, there is no clear enemy, and you gotta appreciate that.
Also, don't remember if you watched James Cameron's The Abyss? Amazing underwater sets and miniatures.
I would recommend "The Bedford Incident" to you. It has some similarities but at a smaller scale - one US destroyer vs one diesel Russian sub in the arctic. The cast interactions are a bit more complex. For example, the captain has a former U boat captain onboard as an advisor
13:37 Water doesn't compress so even though the detonation wasn't directly against the hull, it was close enough that the water being forced away from the detonation still hit the ship hard enough to rupture pipes.
Gene Hackman is one of my favorite actors. If you haven't seen these, check these out:
- The Firm
- The French Connection
- No Way Out (great neo-noir with Kevin Costner, based on a classic film 'The Big Clock', which is another great film).
- The Birdcage - a great comedic performance.
- Enemy of the State
The Poseidon Adventure was a particularly great role for him
Oh my gosh The Birdcage. That dinner scene was the best
I'm so surprised you didn't mention that you recognised your favorite Lord of the Rings character, Aragon (Wep)....or did you?
I think the ending was necessary to show the danger of the balance of the world resting in just a couple of men under extreme pressure.
Ye I understand your misgivings about the last 5 minutes but it’s always good to see the legendary Jason Robards! One of my favorite roles he played is in “Once upon a Tim in the West “ Cheyenne, thanks again and I believe Tony Scott directed “Man on Fire “ another Denzel classic one of his best
And another Jason Robards role where he won the Academy Award For best supporting actor was All The President's Men (1976), playing the true character Ben Bradlee, the executive editor at The Washington Post, from 1965 to 1991, before Tom Hanks did in The Post (2017).
Definitely got it on bluray
Gotta say, I confused him w/ Max Von Sydow. lol
You think he knew Aragorn was the weapons’ officer?
The quick and the dead is a really good western with Gene Hackman.
I was going to suggest the quick and the dead also. It's classic Gene Hackman.
Another awesome Sub film is K-19: The Widowmaker with Harrison Ford as the Captain and Liam Neeson as his XO.
Crimson Tide is based, at least partially, on real events and so the tribunal in the end is necessary. As the characters are returning from the sea to the land there must necessarily be two resolutions, at the very least for realism as the tribunal could easily have come to a different conclusion than they had on the sub. That they were the same is almost irrelevant, both characters may have resolved the issue in a moment of crisis but still had to face judgment once the crisis had passed. It also shows that the conflict was inevitable, as it was based on a flaw in the system revealed through their opposing interpretations.
5:07...my wife is a retired Navy musician. I've sung that song more times than I can remember. Hits me every time.
Crimson Tide is also ghost written by Quentin Tarantino who was brought on board to beef up some sections of dialogue although he is not credited on screen.
never noticed the lighting thing. hats off to you
Seen this movie a hundred times never noticed the difference with the lighting on the characters ! Great review sir keep up the good work ! .... I would love for you to do a clear and present danger if you haven't seen it.
Man, Shan gives some of the best, most detailed critical analysis of films and one of the best reaction CZcamsrs. Why doesn't his channel have at least 100k subscribers?????
They're incomparable to begin with, each a master in their own right. Kirby is like a godfather, A Da Vinci or a Michelangelo, while Moebius is like the brilliant outsider, the hermit or savant, like a Van Gogh. Just because they both drew the Silver Surfer is not enough reason to try to compare them, because it's impossible, I for one, at least don't want to.
Everyone knows Kirby's Sliver Surfer is the real Sliver Surfer! That made my inner nerd quite happy.
Me too, and the message that just because someone is wrong about pop culture doesn't mean you have to argue with them is even more relevant in the internet age.
@@adamwarlock1 true and that's the XO point, I'm sure the two shipmates were just getting on each other's nerves and maybe were just young guys on their first time out to sea.
ROLL TIDE!! Awesome movie..even though I hate Alabama football! Lol
This is a good one Shan.....LETS GO!
I worked on construction of three classes of subs from '90 to '94 so I watched this in the theater. I like plots that involve difficult decisions, or conflicts based on disagreement over what is right. I didn't remember that James Gandolfini and Viggo Mortenson were in this.
"Fallen" (1998) with Denzel Washington is one of my favorite Denzel movies and a hidden gem. (Crime thriller with a twist)
Das Boot is a must-see Shan.
"The Prophecy" (1995) with Christopher Walken is great movie, can't vouch for any of the sequels though.
Anything with Christopher Walken. Have you seen Suicide Kings?
@@smokeyverton7981 Walken is unique, how about King of New York ? or The Deer Hunter ?
A couple of other films that Gene Hackman was in that don't seem to be mentioned are "Superman", the beginning of the modern day superhero movies, and "Hoosiers". And a film Denzel Washington was in that should be watched is "Glory".
I Always liked this better than hunt for red october. The tension is so great
Speaking of Hackman, he was also great in the comedy film "Get Shorty"
You may want to try "U-571" & "Below" for good submarine dramas. And yes, Hackman & Denzel are dynamic together & Tony Scott directing is an added bonus. Tony Scott was a great director. Jack Kirby`s Silver Surfer is My personal favorite but Moebius has his charm as well.
I would also recommend "The Enemy Below" which we even hear them mention in this film. it becomes a chess game between the two commanders and it is played brilliantly
Another great military drama with Denzel Washington is Courage Under Fire. Great ensemble piece.
My favorite Hackman performance has to be "The Royal Tenenbaums." Beautiful, genius, funny, memorable movie on every level.
I'd almost forgotten that movie. He was absolutely fabulous, Father of the Year
Another excellent reaction and analysis, Shan, thanks for sharing!
Crimson Tide is a great film, perhaps not quite at the overall A-Tier level that becomes a frequent re-watch, but the performances and the score are absolutely top notch.
The way you called out the color / lighting gave me a deeper appreciation of that aspect of the cinematography.
I agree with you about the final scene. It's tricky trying to find the proper balance between allowing viewers to form their own conclusions and providing them directly in the film, and I think this was an example of a scene that could've been removed to strengthen the lasting impact of the movie.
This, Das Boot and U-571 are three of my favorite sub movies.
If you're looking for further proof of Gene Hackman's talent, look no further than David Mamet's 'Heist'. Some of the greatest dialogue of any film ever. Pair that with the sublime acting of Hackman, Delroy Lindo, Sam Rockwell, and Danny DeVito, and you've got all the makings of an underrated classic!
I adore this movie, amazing cast, intriguing suspenseful plot........Great review.
Crimson tide, heat, no way out or out of time, sleepers and enemy of the state are great movies
Malcolm X., Eastern Promises, Hoosiers (not because it’s better than Mississippi Burning or The French Connection, but just because I love it so much).
The next submarine movie needs to be Down Periscope. Thanks for the great reactions!
Great reaction!! Loved your analysis and observation of the use of color!
I also love the Simpson's hommage to this movie. The episode "Simpson Tide" is a must watch.
"They were both right". Indeed. Nice review of a great movie!
U-571 (2000) It's a great submarine thriller too
18:10. That 3 minutes to me is the greatest part of this movie. It says everything about the captain and where his head was at the whole time that even under those he gave them those 3 minutes to prove their point.
EMERGENCY ACTION MESSAGE.
FLOAT THE BUOY.
THE GAME IS ON AT 8.
Gene Hackman not-to-miss film, The French Connection. Also, The Conversation. This film reminds me of the Caine Mutiny with Bogart but I've never compared the two.
Such an underrated movie....90's were so jam packed with greats that a gem like this kinda got lost in that mid-90's peak. It's a great movie though.
I was on a submarine..."Das Boot" is the best...I had to pause this and watch "October"...the movie posters for all three hang in my work office...
Scene with Hunter and Captain happened with a Soviet Sub during the Cuban Missile Crises.
Shan, do you think every viewer will see both men as both right and wrong as you did? Were you satisfied that the board came to the same conclusion? Perhaps that final scene was put there for viewers who were squarely on one side of the fence. Perhaps it was just to provide the denouement satisfaction for those like you. Perhaps it was more of a setup for the command recommendation, since it would be sudden and out of place for Hackman to just mention it during their parting.
Great review of a great film. You sure know the ins and outs of cinematic presentation, all the commentary about the sets and especially lighting. I appreciate your insights there.
I have owned a copy of this soundtrack since 1995. One of Hans Zimmer's best works.
Get a copy of The Thin Red Line soundtrack, easily Hans Zimmer's most mature work.
@@chrisfofficial I have had a copy of that for a long time as well. “Journey to the Line” is probably one of the greatest movie cues ever made.
@@paulhewes7333 There are many great songs on that soundtrack, like Journey to the Line or Light. And unreleased tracks you can only find as bootlegs right here on YT.
The Thin Red Line is such an unique and amazing film, soundtrack included. The only music of Zimmer that I know of which he tours regularly with. You go to a Zimmer In Concert concert, chances are extremely high you will hear music from The Thin Red Line. Yet there is no reaction video to the movie on CZcams and nobody born after the 90's seem to know about its soundtrack. Such a tradegy.
@@chrisfofficial to be fair, "The Thin Red Line" film makes itself difficult to like...
@@paulhewes7333 It's not conventional cinema, no. But that doesn't make it bad. I wrote an essay back in film school on what makes it great. I remember also how my director teacher used to lecture that while Saving Private Ryan is the perfect technical movie, it's very simple and manipulative with its pro-american propaganda. Americans good, Germans bad. That's fine too, most movies are designed to manipulate you one way or another, but that's why I love The Thin Red Line. It's more anti-war than war, although I wouldn't call it anti-war either. More like a philosophical piece on man versus nature an all those questions which it ask, but doesn't answer. I like Malick's way of constructing movies. I find it superior to conventional cinema. But it's not for everyone, no. That's art 🙃
Based on your comments about military morality, I also suggest that you watch "A Few Good Men", Judgement at Nuremberg", and "Fail Safe".
Judgement at Nuremberg took its toll on me. So many emotions and Judy Garland was outstanding
During the Cuban Missile Crisis a somewhat similar incident happened. A Soviet submarine B-59 was being tracked and coerced to surface by the US Navy. On board were torpedoes with nuclear warheads and normally it took the authorization of the captain and chief political officer to launch, but on the B-59 was also the commander of the submarine detachment, whose authorization was also required. While the other officers were convinced a shooting war had began, the commander didn't agree to launch. In the end they surfaced and headed back to the Soviet Union, as it came clear it was merely warning shots.
While it might seem crazy to give such authority to officers, at the time submarines were seen as important part of the MAD doctrine, since if all nuclear launches were under the direct control of the president, you just needed to take out the president with a surprise attack and your enemy could not retaliate. Dr. Strangelove explores what happens when an officer disregards normal chain of command and authorizes the use of nuclear weapons on their own.
Yea I would say this film took some inspiration from that incident. Googled Vasili Arkhipov.. thank God cooler heads prevailed, and he was able to prevent a nuclear showdown.
I recall Quentin Tarantino was called in to punch-up the dialog. This was 3 years after Reservoir Dogs. It was Tarantino who inserted the horse dialog.
Lieutenant Bobby Dougherty - played by James Gandolfini...aka Tony Soprano from the HBO show. RIP James Died June 19, 2013 (aged 51)
Excellent reaction and review as usual. Nice job Shan.
The first rated-R movie I ever got to see in the theater. So I may have some extra nostalgia attached to this movie for that reason; however, I legitimately think this is one of the most underrated gems in the thriller/military movie genre(s). The cast is great, the music is great, the effects still look fantastic, and the battle of wills between Denzel and Hackman is enthralling. I think it says a lot for a movie that contains some pretty big and pretty impressive action moments, and yet the most entertaining scene in the film for me is a bunch of guys sitting around a table talking about the nature of War. I watch a lot of movies, but I actually don't own a very big collection. But you better believe I have both a DVD and a Blu-Ray copy of this movie at home.
This and The Hunt For Red October were the two best submarine movies of all time.
Have you seen Das Boot or U-571? Both are must sees in my humble opinion
Two unrelated suggestions:
- Little Big Man
- Argo
. . . Though one could argue Little Big Man is related by way of Dustin Hoffman being nearly-lifelong friends with Gene Hackman (as well as roommates) as well as Robert Duvall…
Thrillers with a moral tale to tell... Hard Candy, The Machinist, Old Boy (original), Requiem For A Dream, Death Sentence, Blue Ruin, Memento
It's interesting seeing people's reactions to this film; more specifically, whether they believe the Captain had a point. It scares me to even think that some people would side with the Captain. We're not talking about a question whether to launch a standard missile. This is a nuclear missile that would've started a nuclear war, i.e. the end of the world. You don't launch a nuclear missile unless you're absolutely sure and you have the most updated information on the situation, something that was impossible for a submarine crew that lost radio contact with the outside world. There is no question who was right here. It's not a grey area. The Captain was wrong, plain and simple.
Its not the Captains duty to make decisions on wether to launch or not to launch tho, he is supposed to follow orders. If he gets the order to launch, thats what he is supposed to do. If he gets an incomplete order, thats no order at all so the previous order still stands. Ofcourse with nuclear weapons that might have major consequences, but the mistake was made by those who issued the order to launch, not by the captain who was trying to do his job following the orders and rules he was given. Ofc, replacing his XO to launch against his will was on him and against orders, from that point on he was in the wrong.
Wrong. The submarine is supposed to carry out the orders to launch. In real life, there is no procedure for canceling a nuclear launch. It’s not something the US President is supposed to do a last minute recall on.
After Das Boot I recommend U-571 (2000).
This is my dad's favorite Submarine movie, as well as The Hunt For Red October. He's in the hospital now , still recovering.
The tribunal being in Pearl Harbor is a nice callback to the beginning where they each make a case about dropping and not dropping the bombs on Japan. And now, they're essentially making that same case to the tribunal.
Shan, another amusing factoid: because the US Air Force Strategic Air Command and ICBM missile command were frustrated with the limited authority to launch when the SIOP was revised, the 8 digit launch codes for all Minuteman III missiles was “0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0” until 2003.
“Command and Control” by Eric Schlosser is a great book and documentary covering the sheer insanity that is the ongoing battle between military and civilian authority to control nuclear weapons, as well as the near-miss disasters such as the Damascus Incident.
I forgot how good this movie was. Thank you kindly for the video!
I swear, every submarine movie is a great movie