@@sennheiser I really admire those people who love audio and manage to work with it. I believe that the chance of something great happening and that elevates the products to another level is considerably greater this way. Jermo, congratulations on your work and the headphone projects you participated in! I really liked the HD560S, IE 200 and IE 600! They were fantastic tunings in my opinion.
That note that the online audiophile community prefers the ie600 while the ie900 sells more kind of showed me again, what a bubble the community can be. Also liked how they mentioned how a lot of sound aspects get overshadowed simply because of THE CURVE is really hit it home. Vielen Dank für den Einblick jungs! Top Arbeit leistet ihr :>
People don't have the kind of comparisons that online communities have. They just want the best, so they get the highest number and largest price. However the thing we're forgetting here is that IEMs simulate a pinna. They don't simulate your pinna, but some pinna. It's entirely possible that a community praises one model that really accommodates half the people. It's also possible that a flagship model fits the other half, which may at the same time mean that for many people it's not the pinnacle of sound. A lot of it hinges on the soft bits of flesh sticking out from your head.
Thanks for watching! There's a lot to unpack in EP01, and it may inspire other follow up questions and ideas, so feel free to drop them in the comments. More to come :)
Thank you for watching! It's a fun hobby and passion-- you'll want to subscribe as we have more episodes covering a wide range of topics on the way. Enjoy!
@@GrumpiestKitten Thanks, I think someone else recommended the loudspeaker and headphone handbook and the price put me off a bit but I may have to save up my pennies and get a copy one day
@@CustomCans They really don't have that much on headphones there. Whenever someone asks about tweaking what they have, I send them your video with the cheapo Sonys.
I liked this a lot. I've enjoyed listening to Jermo in previous times and this was very cool again. Werner was great as well. Questions were not marketing fluff and actually produced good answers. I hope to see more of this and would like to see other companies take this more open technical approach. This is great marketing, in a way. Lots of companies have engineers with great passion and ideas and they are often hampered by bad marketing decisions. Good job, Sennheiser.
Would love to see a video on controverisal audiophile topics like timbre differences and the effects of burn-in for different driver technologies, the sound differences of cable swapping, using different amps and dacs and their audible (or not audible) effects on a transducer, etc. Thanks for making these!
Also would you ever try developing and releasing in-ears with different driver technologies, like BAs, E-Stats, AMT-drivers, bone-conduction drivers or combinations of some of these in a single shell?
Those would be tremendously interesting topics to see Sennheiser commend on! I expect that Sennheiser's scientists and engineers might comment on, say, burning-in of dynamic transducers, or on the importance of source/driving electronics. However, they would never damage a big and prosperous side-market (expensive "upgrade" cables) by boldly stating what scientists and experienced engineers believe/know about it. Main market (headphones) and side market (cables and cable myths) help eachother's sales. In a differently evolved world and market, (based on different values), costumers would spend all their audio budget on better electronics and transducers instead of compromising these to be able to buy expensive cables (to no avail, sonically).
On the controversial topic: Internally we are fairly grounded, ie. 99% of the sound comes from the headphone, sometimes there's impact by the source, but overall we live in an age were amazing performance of electronics doesn't cost an arm and a leg. On the other hand, we don't really want to take a side because we're not the sort of people that tell others what they hear or don't hear. We'll address it in an upcoming video! On in-ear transducers, we just don't see the benefit of other transducers, since our solution enables reproduction of the entire audible frequency band at minimal distortion, and the timbre of other drivers is not better in our opinion. Many advantages of other technologies like e-stats get lost on a small transducer, were break-up modes are not as prevalent, and resistance of air weight is so much higher due to closed acoustics.
@@sennheiser thanks for your answer! :) I have tried many other driver types in IEMs and I really enjoy the type of sound an AMT and E-Stat IEM can produce. I understand why you stay with a single DD however. Of all brands in the industry, I think you could really shake up the market the most with the production of hybrids (tribrids etc.) and the development of more exotic driver types though! If you ever change your mind, I would be the first to own a pair 😁✌️ Thanks for the videos!
Thanks for an interesting discussion on tuning. Let me use the opportunity to give my 2 main wishes for coming Sennheiser products. 1: A new generation of the 800S with a dash more bass below 100 Hz 2: A development of the HDV 820 amplifier with optional eq curves for each of your premium headphones. Greetings from Denmark 😃
Congratulations for sharing your thoughts, views and enthusiasm with your costumers! Beyond the Curve is a very nice and useful idea, with great potential to help both sides significantly. Being a Sennheiser admirer and user of 4-5 different models (since my HD-580 Precision), I like to see Sennheiser active and employing young people with knowledge and new ideas. I think it's time that all this knowledge and enthusiasm takes shape in a new flagship open model that will elevate sound quality to the highest possible standards of dynamic headphones today. HD-800S is excellent but I think you can do even better after 15 years of experience and developments, and stay on the neutrality path too. Also it doesn't have to cost more than € 1500 to be appreciated, please retain Sennheiser's friendly, honest and mature profile. Thank you for all your work!
Really interesting topics and love this series guys, please continue posting these series in this channel. Maybe not so many nerds like me will watch this video and your views will be low but please keep posting new episodes of these series , I learned a lot even from a single video. Thank you guys!
Not gonna lie, I started cackling at 28:40. Thank you for including that question, and I think everyone returned well-measured (hah) responses. Good on Jermo and Werner for not brooking the popular misconception that frequency response is everything.
Proud to see this as an owner of flagship IE900. Love Sennheiser and more power to you But users are a bit concerned with QC issues. Please look into that and come back in every top youtube reviewers
As an future planar driver designer i have a question about overcoming challenge in increasing bass/low-end on planar magnetic headphones? Generally the planar structure tends to left out this part of the spectrum.
This is very cool. Are you guys gonna come up with a new HD800S ? maybe planar ? If you can keep hd800s signature but improve the bass it would drop like a bomb in audiophile community.
I loved this video. It's a great insight into not just how Sennheiser does things, but just tuning in general. I especially enjoyed hearing about how important a true ear is when doing the tuning process because we do all hear differently! Here is my question. As a follow up to the question you had asked on the Harman target. I, too believe it to be important research albeit certainly not a one size fits all. As a company however, do you find yourself now careful before releasing a final product to see how it lines up to this said curve? My concern is perhaps not Sennheiser, but that some companies may start feeling like walking on eggshells with final tunings as to not disappoint this measurement boom we have seen in reviewers.
Thanks so much for your kind feedback, it's much appreciated! Regarding your question: As a product manager, you're always concerned with the market reception of a new release, and at least the online community does their early judgement 90% by measurements. There can be no easy solution to this conundrum, but I have decided for myself that I make my decisions 100% based on feedback of listening tests, because that's what we build the headphones for.
Awesome video thanks. Biggest fan of your diffuse field loudness equalisation, love the hd540 reference gold. Would appreciate if you would give us replacement ear pads for these again.
What if earphones dynamically adjust equalization according to the genre of music playing currently and what type of tuning user prefer to hear individually for that specific reason while caring about environmental noise also?
It was mentioned that loudness DF is not possible with a closed back or an IEM because of course they'll block out the sound, but wouldn't an open back also do this to some extent? I mean, wouldn't listeners perceive the DF differently with a headphone on their head vs not?
That is a great point, and the method works better the more open a headphone is. That is why we value openness of headphones over the measurable frequency response for instance. You could often improve bass response or reduce strain on the transducer by increasing the damping, but we believe the loss of openness is not worth it.
Its interesting how you say iems need around 10+dB to sound correct where you have people having big issues with with bass above +3dB just sounds wrong. I donno HD560s with its dynamics and reduced sustained bass imo is significantly better then the HD600 where its lacking fine vocal detail. The harman curve is a blight to target chasing companies. It always ends up with alot of the Chifi that fit the curve just lacking mids/vocal body.
Of course there's individual preference for bass response of in-ears as well, but generally speaking the reception for the bass shelf of the IE 900 has been amazing, while the same measured frequency response would certainly sound excessive on every open headphone. Agreed on the target curve, it's a vicious circle: reviewers rate based on adherence to target curve, companies tune to target, and some people forget to listen. But we're sure it's gonna get better!
Hi it's a very interesting video, thank you. I can understand that you have different tunings to appeal to different tastes and that is fine. But it seems that each of your products has its own tuning, so it's very confusing. How are customers supposed to know ? How do you explicit the sound signature in your marketing material ? I am mostly a "speaker audiophile" so not much experienced in headphones, I own a HD 560 S and maybe I'd like to upgrade. And I read about HD 600 vs 650, 660s, and so on and in the end I don't buy because it's all over the place and I'm confused. How could I choose if not by reading a measurement ?
@@thomas21000 I personally think so, but if you can, try out both and see what you like better :) the NDH-30 is often available at a reduced price, maybe you'll find a deal also
I think there is a big flaw in tuning of the momentum 4 s it lacks mid bass in trade for over power low bass and the mids are very bad sounding when compared with momentum 3 instrumentals and vocals are not nearly as detailed as a sennheiser product is expected from 😮
Your expert listening panel referred your own sighted listening tuning over Harman. The point of Sean Olive's research was blind listening preferences, so you guys have missed the point of the research. You are just tuning to some Golden Ears in the company?
Thanks for your question! All our internal listening tests with our expert listening panel are completely blind. We also believe that there's more to good headphone sound than just preference of A over B in a brief listening session. You can measure some things, but we can't express everything with numbers yet. It's a journey ;)
You missed the point of diffuse field equal loudness tuning. They are tuning headphones to match good loudspeakers in a well treated room, which is similar to Harman. The listener changes the volume of frequencies in the headphone so they can't hear a difference between the headphones and speakers. That's how Sennheiser released the HD600, which measures close to harman, before the Harman studies were conducted.
Thanks, I hope in future you can explain more about blind listening in your development. @@sennheiser WHen you say "there's more to good headphone sound than just preference of A over B in a brief listening session. You can measure some things, but we can't express everything with numbers yet." - this is the point of blind testing. To get away from the frequency response measurements. Consistent with Harman research obviously....
This is good to know @@Farpun But would be nice to know if these people involved had nothing to do with the development. And how many people were involved etc.
Have an idea for future shows? Drop them in the comments and stay tuned! 😉
Jermo has such a great passion for audio. I'm really glad he's helping to steer the ship.
Thanks so much Douglas, I look forward to seeing you again soon! I always appreciate your feedback on developments (This is Jermo btw)
@@sennheiser I really admire those people who love audio and manage to work with it. I believe that the chance of something great happening and that elevates the products to another level is considerably greater this way. Jermo, congratulations on your work and the headphone projects you participated in! I really liked the HD560S, IE 200 and IE 600! They were fantastic tunings in my opinion.
That note that the online audiophile community prefers the ie600 while the ie900 sells more kind of showed me again, what a bubble the community can be. Also liked how they mentioned how a lot of sound aspects get overshadowed simply because of THE CURVE is really hit it home. Vielen Dank für den Einblick jungs! Top Arbeit leistet ihr :>
People don't have the kind of comparisons that online communities have. They just want the best, so they get the highest number and largest price. However the thing we're forgetting here is that IEMs simulate a pinna. They don't simulate your pinna, but some pinna. It's entirely possible that a community praises one model that really accommodates half the people. It's also possible that a flagship model fits the other half, which may at the same time mean that for many people it's not the pinnacle of sound. A lot of it hinges on the soft bits of flesh sticking out from your head.
Wow, you started the stuff that you promised earlier, the science behind headphones. Thank you, this is awesome!
Thanks for watching! There's a lot to unpack in EP01, and it may inspire other follow up questions and ideas, so feel free to drop them in the comments. More to come :)
Finally the topic we've been waiting for
Thanks for watching -- there's more to come, so be certain to sub :)
Yes We really like to hear more 😮
Thanks for the video, I have been trying to learn as much as I can about headphone design. It was really nice to see behind the scenes
Thank you for watching! It's a fun hobby and passion-- you'll want to subscribe as we have more episodes covering a wide range of topics on the way. Enjoy!
Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook + LTspice is really all you need for tuning.
@@GrumpiestKitten Thanks, I think someone else recommended the loudspeaker and headphone handbook and the price put me off a bit but I may have to save up my pennies and get a copy one day
@@CustomCans They really don't have that much on headphones there. Whenever someone asks about tweaking what they have, I send them your video with the cheapo Sonys.
This was so much fun. Great job everyone involved. The three gentlemen are a great bunch. I learned something and can't wait for the next one.
I liked this a lot. I've enjoyed listening to Jermo in previous times and this was very cool again. Werner was great as well. Questions were not marketing fluff and actually produced good answers. I hope to see more of this and would like to see other companies take this more open technical approach. This is great marketing, in a way. Lots of companies have engineers with great passion and ideas and they are often hampered by bad marketing decisions. Good job, Sennheiser.
Thanks so much for your kind words, we'll do our best to keep it up!
@@sennheiser I will accept an HD 800 S as compensation. But now seriously, give us a Werner and Jermo buddy cop movie. Thanks in advance.
Ha, we'll see what we can do about that 🎥
Would love to see a video on controverisal audiophile topics like timbre differences and the effects of burn-in for different driver technologies, the sound differences of cable swapping, using different amps and dacs and their audible (or not audible) effects on a transducer, etc.
Thanks for making these!
Also would you ever try developing and releasing in-ears with different driver technologies, like BAs, E-Stats, AMT-drivers, bone-conduction drivers or combinations of some of these in a single shell?
Those would be tremendously interesting topics to see Sennheiser commend on! I expect that Sennheiser's scientists and engineers might comment on, say, burning-in of dynamic transducers, or on the importance of source/driving electronics. However, they would never damage a big and prosperous side-market (expensive "upgrade" cables) by boldly stating what scientists and experienced engineers believe/know about it. Main market (headphones) and side market (cables and cable myths) help eachother's sales. In a differently evolved world and market, (based on different values), costumers would spend all their audio budget on better electronics and transducers instead of compromising these to be able to buy expensive cables (to no avail, sonically).
@@user-hz4ey8tp3s let's hope for the best :) just genuinely interested what people in the industry think
On the controversial topic: Internally we are fairly grounded, ie. 99% of the sound comes from the headphone, sometimes there's impact by the source, but overall we live in an age were amazing performance of electronics doesn't cost an arm and a leg. On the other hand, we don't really want to take a side because we're not the sort of people that tell others what they hear or don't hear. We'll address it in an upcoming video!
On in-ear transducers, we just don't see the benefit of other transducers, since our solution enables reproduction of the entire audible frequency band at minimal distortion, and the timbre of other drivers is not better in our opinion. Many advantages of other technologies like e-stats get lost on a small transducer, were break-up modes are not as prevalent, and resistance of air weight is so much higher due to closed acoustics.
@@sennheiser thanks for your answer! :) I have tried many other driver types in IEMs and I really enjoy the type of sound an AMT and E-Stat IEM can produce. I understand why you stay with a single DD however.
Of all brands in the industry, I think you could really shake up the market the most with the production of hybrids (tribrids etc.) and the development of more exotic driver types though! If you ever change your mind, I would be the first to own a pair 😁✌️
Thanks for the videos!
Thanks for an interesting discussion on tuning.
Let me use the opportunity to give my 2 main wishes for coming Sennheiser products.
1: A new generation of the 800S with a dash more bass below 100 Hz
2: A development of the HDV 820 amplifier with optional eq curves for each of your premium headphones.
Greetings from Denmark 😃
You'll get more than just a dash :)
Truly interesting stuff. Thanks so much for educating us on how some of my favorite headphones were actually tuned. A labor of love for sure!
This is a brilliant initiative! - Thank you Sennheiser for an interesting first episode - looking forward to the next 🙂
Congratulations for sharing your thoughts, views and enthusiasm with your costumers! Beyond the Curve is a very nice and useful idea, with great potential to help both sides significantly. Being a Sennheiser admirer and user of 4-5 different models (since my HD-580 Precision), I like to see Sennheiser active and employing young people with knowledge and new ideas. I think it's time that all this knowledge and enthusiasm takes shape in a new flagship open model that will elevate sound quality to the highest possible standards of dynamic headphones today. HD-800S is excellent but I think you can do even better after 15 years of experience and developments, and stay on the neutrality path too. Also it doesn't have to cost more than € 1500 to be appreciated, please retain Sennheiser's friendly, honest and mature profile. Thank you for all your work!
Thanks so much for the kind words and your confidence in our team, we're hard at work to build the products you'll love :)
This was amazing so much good info and I love the beef at the end with the Redditors. Great vid
So much knowledge and insight here! Thanks for this
Much appreciated! Thanks for watching and please stay tuned for even more episodes to come :)
Really interesting topics and love this series guys, please continue posting these series in this channel. Maybe not so many nerds like me will watch this video and your views will be low but please keep posting new episodes of these series , I learned a lot even from a single video. Thank you guys!
Wonderful video, thank you!
Not gonna lie, I started cackling at 28:40. Thank you for including that question, and I think everyone returned well-measured (hah) responses. Good on Jermo and Werner for not brooking the popular misconception that frequency response is everything.
Proud to see this as an owner of flagship IE900. Love Sennheiser and more power to you
But users are a bit concerned with QC issues. Please look into that and come back in every top youtube reviewers
As an future planar driver designer i have a question about overcoming challenge in increasing bass/low-end on planar magnetic headphones?
Generally the planar structure tends to left out this part of the spectrum.
Great show, folks. Wunderbar!
Rich content on developing an ideology of sound and how to refine it. Fantastic! Thank you so much for sharing this knowledge!
This is very cool. Are you guys gonna come up with a new HD800S ? maybe planar ? If you can keep hd800s signature but improve the bass it would drop like a bomb in audiophile community.
I loved this video. It's a great insight into not just how Sennheiser does things, but just tuning in general. I especially enjoyed hearing about how important a true ear is when doing the tuning process because we do all hear differently!
Here is my question. As a follow up to the question you had asked on the Harman target. I, too believe it to be important research albeit certainly not a one size fits all.
As a company however, do you find yourself now careful before releasing a final product to see how it lines up to this said curve?
My concern is perhaps not Sennheiser, but that some companies may start feeling like walking on eggshells with final tunings as to not disappoint this measurement boom we have seen in reviewers.
Thanks so much for your kind feedback, it's much appreciated!
Regarding your question: As a product manager, you're always concerned with the market reception of a new release, and at least the online community does their early judgement 90% by measurements. There can be no easy solution to this conundrum, but I have decided for myself that I make my decisions 100% based on feedback of listening tests, because that's what we build the headphones for.
@@sennheiser love that, thank you!
Awesome video thanks. Biggest fan of your diffuse field loudness equalisation, love the hd540 reference gold. Would appreciate if you would give us replacement ear pads for these again.
So neat! I love this~
What if earphones dynamically adjust equalization according to the genre of music playing currently and what type of tuning user prefer to hear individually for that specific reason while caring about environmental noise also?
Interesting concept. We sort of do this with the MOMENTUM 4 and MOMENTUM True Wireless 3 sound personalization mode.
What do you think about consumers using EQ? More specifically, tuning an HD800S to the Harman Target.
We'll address it in an upcoming video!
@@sennheiser Awesome, thankyou for responding!
It was mentioned that loudness DF is not possible with a closed back or an IEM because of course they'll block out the sound, but wouldn't an open back also do this to some extent? I mean, wouldn't listeners perceive the DF differently with a headphone on their head vs not?
That is a great point, and the method works better the more open a headphone is. That is why we value openness of headphones over the measurable frequency response for instance. You could often improve bass response or reduce strain on the transducer by increasing the damping, but we believe the loss of openness is not worth it.
Guiilermoo, sounds familiar
Please do it for momentum 4
Its interesting how you say iems need around 10+dB to sound correct where you have people having big issues with with bass above +3dB just sounds wrong.
I donno HD560s with its dynamics and reduced sustained bass imo is significantly better then the HD600 where its lacking fine vocal detail.
The harman curve is a blight to target chasing companies. It always ends up with alot of the Chifi that fit the curve just lacking mids/vocal body.
Of course there's individual preference for bass response of in-ears as well, but generally speaking the reception for the bass shelf of the IE 900 has been amazing, while the same measured frequency response would certainly sound excessive on every open headphone.
Agreed on the target curve, it's a vicious circle: reviewers rate based on adherence to target curve, companies tune to target, and some people forget to listen. But we're sure it's gonna get better!
Hi it's a very interesting video, thank you. I can understand that you have different tunings to appeal to different tastes and that is fine. But it seems that each of your products has its own tuning, so it's very confusing. How are customers supposed to know ? How do you explicit the sound signature in your marketing material ? I am mostly a "speaker audiophile" so not much experienced in headphones, I own a HD 560 S and maybe I'd like to upgrade. And I read about HD 600 vs 650, 660s, and so on and in the end I don't buy because it's all over the place and I'm confused. How could I choose if not by reading a measurement ?
Get the Neumann NDH-30
@@maegnificant Thanks for the advice, looks very nice.
@@thomas21000 it's a sennheiser driver tuned by neumann, so you get the best of both worlds. Really good built quality as well.
@@maegnificant I read a bit about it. Is it really worth the price compared to a HD600 or 650 ?
@@thomas21000 I personally think so, but if you can, try out both and see what you like better :) the NDH-30 is often available at a reduced price, maybe you'll find a deal also
Have you considered making a closed back HD6__ series headphone?
Extraordinary
Hello, please release an upgraded, slightly retuned HD700. Thank you.
What AMPs/DAPs are used to tune Sennheiser headphones and IEM?
I think there is a big flaw in tuning of the momentum 4 s it lacks mid bass in trade for over power low bass and the mids are very bad sounding when compared with momentum 3 instrumentals and vocals are not nearly as detailed as a sennheiser product is expected from 😮
I am furious why the mods trust the fake reviewers everywhere rather than listening to real headphone engineers.
Your expert listening panel referred your own sighted listening tuning over Harman. The point of Sean Olive's research was blind listening preferences, so you guys have missed the point of the research. You are just tuning to some Golden Ears in the company?
Thanks for your question! All our internal listening tests with our expert listening panel are completely blind. We also believe that there's more to good headphone sound than just preference of A over B in a brief listening session. You can measure some things, but we can't express everything with numbers yet. It's a journey ;)
You missed the point of diffuse field equal loudness tuning. They are tuning headphones to match good loudspeakers in a well treated room, which is similar to Harman. The listener changes the volume of frequencies in the headphone so they can't hear a difference between the headphones and speakers. That's how Sennheiser released the HD600, which measures close to harman, before the Harman studies were conducted.
Thanks, I hope in future you can explain more about blind listening in your development. @@sennheiser WHen you say "there's more to good headphone sound than just preference of A over B in a brief listening session. You can measure some things, but we can't express everything with numbers yet." - this is the point of blind testing. To get away from the frequency response measurements. Consistent with Harman research obviously....
This is good to know @@Farpun But would be nice to know if these people involved had nothing to do with the development. And how many people were involved etc.