You NEED To Know This One Rule If You Want to Win More Game - Magic The Gathering Commander
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2023
- APNAP, Rule 101.4 is a rule I didn't know about for the longest time. And with so many Sheoldred's running about and lots of card draw effects thanks to Fable of the Mirror Breaker and Raffine, Scheming Seer in Standard. And not to mention all the triggered abilities that go off in Commander. I thought I would make a quick, easy to digest rules video about it.
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On a slightly tangential note, but the perfect example card for abilities is Magda, Blazin' Outlaw. She has a static ability, a triggered ability, and an activated ability.
These kind of creatures are actually very common. Keywords hide rules text, which means a lot of creatures with keywords have static abilities. Flying, Trample, Haste etc. are all static abilities. Prowess is an example of a keyword that isn't a static ability, it is a triggered ability. This means that something like Bomat Courier also has a static, a triggered and an activated ability.
As for non-keyword abilities, Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar also fits the definition which is fitting for a card that was basically designed as a joke to push the boundaries of what you can fit on a card.
And quite a bit of capability!
I recently saw a CovertGoBlue video where both players had Sheoldred and the opponent was at 1 or 2 life. The opponent died because they activated bankbuster to draw a card in their own turn after which CGB said they would have lived if they did it in his turn. It made me realize I didn't know this rule well enough but after this vid I do!
it seems we are plying with the wrong understanding the whole time, we always think the active player will decide the order of all triggered abilities(whether or not it is controlled by him)
Glad this video has been of help them 😁
That might be because there's a similar but different rule regarding *replacement* effects: when multiple replacement effects would apply to a single thing, that thing's controller determines the order in which they apply, no matter who controls the replacement effects, even if they make other waiting replacement effects invalid. This can be important if something would be, say, shuffled back into library and also exiled at the same time, if they're both "instead of going to graveyard".
@@gatherer818 Strictly speaking, the decision is made by the controller of the object being affected (or the player being affected) by the event that's being replaced. This is a very important distinction for replacement effects that can change how much damage is being dealt. Which is important when something gives +1 damage and something else doubles damage. Whoever is taking damage or controls the object that's taking damage gets to decide in which order these are applied. Also, this choice is made separately for each object taking damage, even if the damage all happens simultaneously through something like Blasphemous Act.
Just for fun, pre-6th edition, the sheoldred player wouldn't lose as both effects would have resolved before a check of life total would occur at the end of the phase.
Me who read the rulebook pre 6th edition and made a long pause on magic, ty for clarifiyng. I tho that was still a thing.
Thanks for this. I also am a very long time Magic player that has taken long breaks from the game scene. I was positive that life total checks didn't happen until a phase change and I'm glad to know that I wasn't crazy for believing that.
Thinking more about it, I also can understand the motivation for the change: being forced to draw a card when you could not always resulted in an immediate loss with no chance to respond, and in the interest of simplification it makes sense to bring the life total rule in line with every other state-based loss effect.
I could have sworn that players simply couldn't lose due to loss of life until the stack resolved thanks to seeing this happen multiple times in games on arena... I guess arena is just built different, then??
@@Brass319 100% you can lose due to life loss with things on the stack. The same way creatures can die due to have more damage than they have health. State-base checks are checked anytime priority is passed.
As someone who has played with both Sheoldred and Meathook, 100% Arena follows the APNAP rules perfectly. There is no way you've seen players go to Negative life thanks to Sheoldred and Meathook triggers and not lose the game. (Outside of things like Phyrexian Unlife etc)
@@attackoncardboard Not sheoldred or something, can't rember exactly what it was, mighta been like angel of destiny or whatever. I'm even more confused by now but I _know_ I've seen it at least once. If it helps it was just like the one thing on the stack... I think??? that or mandela effect.
Fun fact: my cheesiest win ever used this rule. I had a Hive Mind out and played Chance for Glory (take another turn after this one, then lose the game) - because of APNAP order, my spell was lowest on the stack, with the other players' copies of my spell above mine in turn order. So they resolved in reverse turn order... meaning we played a single round in reverse turn order, each player losing the game at the end of their turn. Since I went last (because my spell resolved last), everyone else lost the game before I got to take my fatal extra turn, so I won.
Unfortunately the order should've been reversed twice, and you should've been the first to lose.
Because your Chance for Glory went on the stack first, it resolves last, and because extra turns also happen last in first out, your extra turn should've happened first.
@@mawillix2018 Huh, you right. I had at least two ways to avoid losing, though, so it would only have changed the turn order, not the outcome.
Another way is with hive mind and a "Draw X cards" spell where X is 100 or something high enough to end the game. Yours resolves last, so while it's on the stack, state based actions see that you are the only player left and thus you win before the spell resolves
Just to see if I understand something: state-based actions happen every time a player received priority (such as when the triggers are resolving down the stack). In the video's example the opponent dies because the AP's Sheoldred trigger will give players priority and thus check state-based actions, where the game will note the opponent has 0 life. This is *different* than taking damage and also gaining life with lifelink because the damage and life gain happen at the same time. It just felt like a similar example to me, but is different because lifelink is a static ability, not a triggered ability.
You're 100% correct.
If you play MTG Arena, Lifelink is kinda shown incorrectly. You'll always see a player drop down in life THEN heal back up due to Lifelink. But from a rules standpoint, it all happens at the same time.🙂
@@attackoncardboard my understanding is that us just a limitation of the games ability to convey the results. Like, it can only process one effect at a time, it can't just run it all at once. So it basically has to do it in two processes.
You are exactly correct, this is why life from the spirit link aura will not save you, but lifelink will. Spirit link is worded like this: "Whenever enchanted creature deals damage, you gain that much life" You can note that it starts with "whenever" meaning it is a triggered ability, and the lifegain will go on the stack potentially leaving you dead before it can resolve.
Lifelink is worded differently: "Damage dealt by a source with lifelink causes that source's controller to gain that much life", we can note that this is not starting with one of the words that mark a triggered ability (when, whenever or at) thus this ability is static, and doesn't use the stack.
I admitadly already have known this for some time but this is a really good explanation of a very important rule that sadly not allot of commander players are aware of
I love that both Magic the Gathering and Computer Science both have an abstract structure that operate similarly and are called the exact same thing (The Stack). There also happens to be a significant overlap in MtG players and CS majors
For commander, I like to visualize the stack as a corkscrew or spiral staircase where the stack spirals up in clockwise turn order, then unwinds in counter-clockwise order as it resolves.
I learned this during MID/VOW, playing standard on Arena and having both players play Meathook Massacres into complex boardstates. Stuff got very confusing until I looked up how this worked!
It was because of that standard environment that I decided to make this video 😅
Thanks! For a long time I didn't understand why I lost when I was on 2 life and there were two Sheoldreds on the field. Now I get it.
really needed this video me and my friends have been trying to figure this out, great video man :)
I'm glad you learnt something! It's such an important rule to know 🙂
This was an informative and well-edited video - you definitely deserve more subscribers because this was great!
Really appreciate the kind words 😊
If it’s your turn, you’re the active player
The active player’s triggered abilities happen after other players’ triggered abilities
Correct 🙂
Technically it's "The active player's triggered abilities are put on the stack before other players' triggered abilities".
Not "happen after", as that's exactly the kind of imprecise language that would make it difficult to unravel more complicated game states, and will necessarily lead to misunderstandings down the road.
For instance, the triggered ability triggering, the triggered ability being put on the stack and the triggered ability resolving are three entirely different events, and either one could be referred to as the triggered ability "happening". The need to differentiate and distinguish things like this necessitates that you actually use the established lingo, especially in more complex situations. Which means that's how you need to learn it once you get past the immediate beginner stage.
In this instance, it was pretty easy to deduce that the original commenter meant "If it's your turn, you're the active player. The active player's triggered abilities resolve after the non-active players' triggered abilities."
This video is meant to be aimed at players going to FNM, and beginner and intermediates. I'm not looking to nitpick over semantics.
As a non-magic player, why is this? It seems reverse in logic than how I would imagine a card game's abilities going off. I imagine them like yugioh where if they're both the same "speed" the active player's ability goes off first, but that's not the case here. Is this just to add complexity to Magic, or is there a thematic reason for this?
One of the core game play principles in MTG is 'priority'. The person who's turn it is always gets priority first and chooses whether or not they want to do something. Whenever a player does something or looks to change phases, the opposing player gets the chance to do something in response, once both players pass priority in a row, the game moves on. Like how in Poker, if someone bets, you check with each player if they would also like to bet. And if someone raises, the checks go around again.
In this instance, whenever two things happen controlled by a different player, the overarching rule says "whoever has priority goes first", not in the sense of resolving something/making something happen first, but more like locking in intent to do an action first. Then the opponent gets to go.
It's not really thematic as far as I can see, I think it's there just to standardize the flow of the game.
Hope that helps and not too ramble-y.
this ruling is really just a consequence of the more fundamental principle of player priority
at any instance where actions could be taken, the active player(s) always receives priority first, even if they then choose to do nothing. priority is only passed to a non-active player after the active player either takes an action, or declines to do so
this applies even to triggers, with priority belonging to the active player at the moment any abilities are triggered, resulting in theirs being stacked first
wait, is it? so the active player can hold priority after an ability of theirs triggers and take a game action before the non-active player's triggered abilities go on the stack, if they so desire?
reading rule 117.2 i don't think this is how it works. once *any* player gets priority, *all* abilities that were triggered go on the stack in APNAP order
Using the Underworld Dreams and Sheoldred example:
Sheoldred controller goes to their draw step, draws their card. Sheoldred and Underworld Dreams trigger, before any player can do anything, the triggered abilities MUST be placed on the stack. Players cant take any actions if there are triggers in the "Waiting to go on the stack" waiting room.
Once ALL triggered abilities are on the stack, in the APNAP order, then the active player receives priority and can then cast spells etc.
Hope that clears things up.
@@Fopenplop what I meant to specify is that if both players have multiple effects trigger at the same time, the active player receives priority for the purpose of deciding in what order their effects should trigger, then that priority shifts to the non active player for the purpose of choosing the order of their triggers, after which point all said triggers are placed on the stack in APNAP order, specifically in the order chosen by the effects' controllers. I didn't mean to suggest that this process can be interrupted by instant speed effects or mana abilities.
Great video! Had to learn this the hard way after a few mirrors where both players had meathook massacre on board haha
I think we've all been there 🤣
Thanks for sharing this makes alot of sense for situations ive come to in the past i didnt understand as a newer player.
Playing Biovisionnary and Mirrorweave in a 4 players game is always a fun way to explain this rule :D
I just had a game the other day where we needed to learn this rule. The player who just went had a midnight clock out with 11 counters and the active player was about to exile it with Sarulf. Good stuff to know!
This is a fantastic explanation. Easy sub! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you 😊 I hope to make more videos like this in the future 😁
I’ve seen a few videos about APNAP. This is probably the best one
You're too kind 😊
A more confusing example of APNAP application would be using Athreos, Shroud-Veiled. If both players have Athreos on their side of the field, whenever a creature with a coin counter dies or gets exiled a player whose turn it is currently is NOT the one who gets the creature returned under their control.
That's why this rule is important to know 😁
No one has ever been able to explain this rule so eloquently... until now. Thanks for this video, looking forward to more!
That's the goal 🙂 try and break down the more complex and obscure rules so everyone can understand them. Layers is the big one I'm planning to do 😬
This makes a ton of sense! Thank you.
This is a great video, never new this and now I do so thank you for that!
Thank you very much 😊 I'll be looking to do more "break down" videos of rules in the future 🙂
Very good explanation!
I already knew about it so I can't say I learned anything but it was very good video non the less and you explained the rule very well, I am sure it was helpful for a lot of newer players.
Thank you for the great video!
APNAP is how I survived against a Breya player while I had Magnetic Mine out. I'm guessing the person just didn't read the card.
Most people learn this rule the hard way 😂
@@attackoncardboard Yup, often how it has to go. Ya think you understand something one way, and don't know you have it wrong until somebody schools you by doing it the right way.
This was actually really good!
Very well explained
Playing with random people there can be a lot of confusion about when people think things are going to trigger/resolve. I learned a ton about stuff like this just playing MTG: arena on PC. It will let you know a lot about when someone's trying to bend rules to their own gain because you'll start to know the EXACT rules and when things properly happen.
it was a little confusing, but I think I understood it with the example. thanks, I had no idea how this worked.
Excellent video! It's def the kind of thing that newer players aren't likely to know and will definitely mess up in home games and cost them games if they ever try to do FNM. One of my favorite interactions was when Fiend Hunter, Restoration Angel, and Cloudshift in standard. Knowing when to use the flicker spell and how to stack the triggers was important for exiling one creature permanently and another under Fiend Hunter. It was also important, since I naturally had to know how to tell my opponent what I was doing, when they did and didn't have a chance to respond, and why. A judge naturally got called the first time every time. So I also naturally had to be able to tell the judge exactly what order I did things in and stacked things in. I won a lot of games with this deck, many off the back of knowing things like this!
That's odd because Yugioh used to have a rule that worked with priority called turn player priority that said the "active player" (the turn player) could activate cards in response to triggers before the opponent (trigger ex: summoning a monster, activating an effect, changing the phase). It basically let monsters chain their own effects to the summon of themself which lets them activate effects you need to declare. An example was judgement dragon had an effect that says "You can pay 1000 Life Points; destroy all other cards on the field." under this rule, you would be able to chain to his summon before something like bottomless traphole could be used to banish it. All in all it was confusing rule and thankfully they got rid of it.
Thanks, It is very clear!
Awesome video! Thank you
Appreciate the kind words 😊
nice clean video
Much appreciated. I've been working on this video for a couple of weeks. I really wanted to focus on leveling up the production value 🙂
I think this needs an S. APNAPS. Active player, nonactive player, stack. Because APNAP still sounds like the active player's triggers should resolve first, since AP comes before NAP in the mnemonic. Adding the S implies that this all uses the stack, which lets players know to follow the rules for the stack.
Or calling it FILO.
First in, last out is for resolving the stack. APNAP tells you which order the abilities go on the stack.
yep very important lesson
there was a gameplay when a "gravepact" was about to be cast and someone had a "It that betrays" that was actually a "Lazav, Dimir Mastermind" in play but they countered the spell anyway. why?
because the player knew the next player had a "The Mimeoplasm" in hand with "Thran Temporal Gateway" armed the mimeoplasm could become a "It that betrays" as well. and because of "APNAP" the player knew the other player would get everything instead during his/her turns.
really good advice!
Glad to help :)
Honestly I was kind of expecting this to be clickbait based on the title.
But I’m pleasantly surprised to be wrong. You earned a like and a new sub!
New player here, this was very helpful. Never would have figured this out on my own ^^
Glad I could help! Hopefully you'll enjoy the next one too :D
Thanks for this!
Hope you enjoy the rest of the content!! 😃
I won a very close game in a draft with APNAP. We were both at very low life, and he swung out. I blocked, and the death trigger on my Perilous Myr went on the stack after his death effect (I forget which card,) so my trigger resolves before his. He was actually the person who first taught me the APNAP rule, so it was kinda like finally surpassing my teacher 😅
The student becomes the master 🤣
As a new player to magic who has been bombarded with channels who keep talking about all the mistakes Wotc makes, its nice to be recommended one who just wants to help me play the game.
Glad I could help :)
Right there with ya
That was an excellent EXAMPLE based explanation!!! I find so many questions I have are more basic in concept but noone seems to answer them (I guess they are assumed to be obvious? Shame on me lol)
If you have any more questions feel free to ask them here and I'll do my best to explain. Who knows, it might become a video 🙂
shouldn’t have clicked on this expecting a rule that i actually didn’t know 😂 apnap is FUNDAMENTAL in commander and can decide so many games
I did put the rule number in the thumbnail and when I did a poll on this rule about 70% of 200 votes didn't know about it 😅
Hopefully the next one might be a bit more informative for you 🙂
arena is where I lovingly learned that if you have lifegain or gain life abilities triggered while on defense. If the attacking player doesn't do the math right, just because I hit zero initially, doesn't mean I'm actually dead...
this has allowed me to win some razor thin draft matches^=^
Yeah, damage happens all at the same time, but Arena displays it as two *steps* which is technically incorrect, but it's obviously the best way to make it clear what happened. That's why I like making these videos to clear things up :)
I’m fairly certain I knew this but I don’t believe I’ve ever actively used it.
It’s one of those things I’d have to actively integrate into my gameplay. I’ve done it with priority in commander and have used it to help with games, this is soemthing I’m gonna have to do as well.
Love it thank you
❤️
Good to know, thank you!
You're welcome. If there's any other rules questions you have, let me know :)
Good to know. Thanks!
Glad to help! :)
I think everyone in my play group gets this. It's really replacement effects that trip people up. For example, Meddling Mage naming Lightning Bolt never has a point in which it can be targeted by Lightning Bolt. This is because "as this enters the battlefield" is a replacement effect that basically treats the card as though it says "if this would enter the battlefield, do this first, then it enters". There is never a point in time in which Meddling Mage would be on the battlefield as a legal target for the Lightning Bolt in which Lightning Bolt is not already a card named by Meddling Mage which can now not be played.
Iona, Shield of Emeria is my favourite example of this :)
It also works by making a token of sheoldred and killing the opponent that way croaking counterpart has been so good to me
Appreciate this
Happy to help :)
Here's another one that's weird. It involves Lich's Mastery (look up what it does, it's a lot of text) but TLDR is that you can't lose the game, whenever you lose life exile that many cards from your hand, field, or graveyard, and when Lich's Mastery leaves the field its controller loses. Suppose each player is dealt 100 damage and everyone only has 20 life. You control Lich's Mastery and so its ability triggers telling you to exile 100 cards. Obviously you don't have enough to survive so you end up exiling Lich's Mastery and losing... EXCEPT, your opponents have all already lost due to state based actions and your trigger to exile all your cards is on the stack. But since you're the only player left at this point, you win
NitpickingNerd's Mia has a deck that activates Door to Nothingness targeting *yourself* and then with that ability on the stack you cast Radiant Performer to copy the trigger for everyone else. So you win the game with "You lose the game" on the stack 😂
I always thought it was the reverse because I didn't realize they go on stack and are popped off FILO order like the stack. I thought the active player resolved everything first, then so on in turn order lol
Glad this video could clear things up 😁
Good video
Thanks for watching 🙂
Can we get a video on layers? I get real confused sometimes with dependancy situations and timestamps and when those all apply
I definately want to do a video on layers. It probably won't be my next one or so but it's 100% on the cards.
Yep, player priority
Also, nice video is clear and understable
Thanks for the feedback 🙌 much appreciated
They would be cool playmats, super retro.
If you've seen any of my unboxing videos, the playmat I use, I created using Quokka Mousepads. I know it says 'Mouse Pads' but they have every size you could need including playmat size. I've got a referral link in the description for 15% off if you feel like picking one up :)
@@attackoncardboard I meant the one in the example, with all the phase names and game zones in the old-border card font. Maybe not actually a real playmat but would be cool
2 things, 1. love your videos, 2. isent there a way that you can be in minus life, but along as everything is resolved and you are higher then 0 health your still in the game
State-based checks happen any time a player would receive priority. So if you were at 0 or less life inbetween spells resolving and you didn't have something in play like Platinum Angel, you would die.
I know MTGA shows the Combat Damage step and 'Lifelink step' (Note: Not a real step) as two different events (IE, You get attacked, you block with some lifelinkers. Arena will show your health go to negative and then back up to positive.) In a real game, this happens all at the same time.
What i would love is a full, comprehensive guide on "when you can cast an instant/activate an ability". Because the documentation on it is *dense*, and when i ask it always seems to get handwaived as "whenever".
There's was an interesting interaction that I saw recently with Ghostly Prison and whether or not you can use Deathrite Shaman and Lion's Eye Diamond to help pay for Prison when you attack. (Spoiler: you can't)
Silly enough, this does not apply to replacement effects. APNAP does not apply for simultaneous replacement effects (triggered abilities with the word "instead"). The player that is affected or the controller of the affected object decides the order in which the replacement effects apply regardless of who controls the replacement effect. Players make choices regarding this in APNAP order, however.
For example, two players in a four player game control their own copies of Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and one player in the game casts a board wipe such as Wrath of God. Each player, in APNAP order, chooses which replacement effect resolves first for their creatures. If two of your opponents have a Kalitas, you choose which gets the Zombie token. The players that have a Kalitas would only have one replacement effect as it only cares for opponent's creatures and doesn't create a replacement effect for their own. If there were also a Rest In Peace in play, you could choose for the Rest in Peace to apply first (put on the stack last) so no opponent gets a token, even if you are the controller of the Rest in Peace.
Edit: Similarly, if you have multiple abilities *you control* that all hit the stack at the same time you can choose the order in which they go on the stack, as mentioned in the video. A common example I'm familiar with is Eldrazi Displacer and Thought-Knot Seer. When you blink TKS there are two triggers that will be put on the stack after the ability resolves. You can choose to have the opponent draw a card from the leave trigger before the enter trigger resolves and allows you to see their hand and exile a card, or choose the reverse, as both are triggers you control and enter the stack at the same time.
Ooo yes. Replacement effects is a good one! I love the interaction between deflecting palm and damage doublers!
Thanks. I feel like there are other situations that I avoid in my games if I can help it because I am fuzzy on how the rules will work.
If you have any other situations or examples you're unsure of, feel free to comment them here and I'll help 🙂
@@attackoncardboard Thanks a lot. I can only think of one interaction that has me scratching my head right now. (next time I test my deck, I might remember another to ask about.)
My opponent has a "Myojin of Cleansing Fire" on the table. (Or a classic Wrath in hand.)
I have a small army (including a Master Biomancer), a Death's Presence, and a Nim Deathmantle.
My opponent activates his board wipe.
I respond by activating (any and all) mana for the Deathmantle.
It's my understanding that I get to choose the order that the creature' deaths are put on the stack right? So, it should be possible for me to put them on in such a way that my Master Biomancer is the last one placed on the stack. I then use Deathmantle to bring him back. He is now back on the battlefield in time to benefit from Death's Presence for every other creature (on my side) that the board wipe killed. Further, I should be able to use the Deathmantle to react to several of the creatures going to the graveyard if I have the mana for it right?
That feels totally wrong to me as it feels like all the creatures should hit the graveyard at the same time so the Deathmantle should only be allowed to save one and since the wording on the deathmantle indicates that it affects a creature that just hit the graveyard, the creation of counters from the Death's Presence would have no where to go and vanish.
For reference:
Death's Presence: Whenever a creature you control dies, put X +1/+1 counters on target creature you control, where X is the power of the creature that died.
Nim Deathmantle: Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, you may pay 4. If you do, return that card to the battlefield and attach Nim Deathmantle to it.
Thanks again for your time
You're half correct.
Ok so boardwipe happens. A bunch of triggers go into what I like to call "the stack waiting room", this is where we line up all the ability and the order we want them to resolve in. We ALSO have to select the targets for these abilities. Death's Presence says "target creature you control" assuming all your creatures died to the boardwipe. You'll have no targets and the ability will fizzle. The abilities then go into the stack and we look to resolve them.
You will get individual Death Mantle triggers and you can bring back each creature in whatever order you like (assuming to have enough mana to pay for each)
A clone deck always sitting next to a Tergrid deck is how we got the Tergrid player to stop playing Tergrid.
I'm sure the answer is obvious but could I ask an explaination on cards like Cultist of the Absolute when paired with Karona False God, in a commander game, I have cultist of the absolute and my commander is Karona, it comes to my turn and cultist says i need to sacrifice a creature but is my commander on my side of the field at the time or is it still under the control of my opponent? do i need to sacrifice a creature?
By the time you gain control of Karona, it is no longer the beginning of your upkeep so you don't have to worry about sacrificing a creature 🙂
Thank you! Another question about this one: in that Sheoldred vs Underworld Dreams example, would both triggers be placed on the stack together? What if one player (or both) wants to play an instant to react to these triggers? Would it be possible to have an instant resolve *between* these two triggers? (assuming opponent has 2 hp left so they don't lose the game)
I hope this question is clear enough, thank you in advance!
They're placed in order, but players still get priority between each thing on the stack resolving, so yes, an instant can resolve between the two abilities.. but only if you wait for the first triggered ability to resolve, THEN play the instant, then let it resolve, then let the second triggered ability resolve. No one can play spells or abilities while there are triggered abilities waiting to be put on the stack.
In short, yes you can 🙂
Don't forget, each time a player gains priority, the game will check life totals etc so if you attempt you gain life, that ability will go on the stack and then your opponent reduces your life to 0 with another spell. Same deal applies, before the life gain spell can resolve, the game will see you at 0 life and it will end. Hope that makes sense.
cool!
Gotta explain holding priority using apnap. Alot of people don't understand that, especially utilizing split second
I like the sneaky things you can still do while a spilt second card is on the stack. Like turning a morph card face up 😉
Yeah, a lot of people forget that you can respond to your own things. My favorite interaction was playing a Fiend Hunter, targeting the opposing creature, and then using Cloudshift or Restoration Angel to target the Hunter with the flicker effect while the it's own targeting is on the stack. In the case of Cloudshift they didn't even have a chance to respond until the Cloudshift was cast targeting Fiend Hunter, because I still had priority after the targeting.
This is the exact interaction that caused these "O-ring" effects to be reduced from 2 separate lines of text to 1 block. I miss these shenanigans.
@@attackoncardboard Same! It let knowledge and experience play even more of a factor. I don't think it was quite as silly as damage on the stack sac Mog Fanatic either.
@@attackoncardboard Another situation came up that was rather interesting. My friend and I were playtesting, and we came upon a situation with him having Abyssal Persecutor, getting me to negative life, but not drawing his sac outlet. So I attacked him with a lethal amount of trample damage, no first strike, but he blocked a bigger creature than Abyssal Persecutor with Abyssal Persecutor.
It took a fair bit of research for us to figure out who won that game! Me at negative life, attacking for lethal, but in such a way that his Abyssal Persecutor would die in combat.
So if im the non active player i can only cast a spell when i have priority correct? Can i hold priority after casting a spell in response to the active player casting something to cast multiple spells?
As the non-active player, you can only take an action once priority has been passed to you by the active player. Once you have priority, you can choose to hold onto it and take as many actions as you're allowed. Of course, once you've taken your actions and placed your spells or abilities on the stack, you'll have to pass priority back to your opponent before anything resolves.
Only when both players pass priority in a row will the stack begin to resolve. Either player can of course obtain priority again between each resolution of a spell or ability :)
Recently lost a game because I didn't fully understand this. Honestly it was an extremely messy situation because the guy kept adding to the top of the stack instead of letting anything resolve even though someone else had triggered abilities trying to go on. It was a headache to try to keep anything straight whenever he kept manipulating the stack. Now that I think about it he couldn't have won because he kept triggering his effects and didn't allow other people to trigger theirs first which would have changed everything.
When things trigger, they need to be placed on stack before anything else can happen. Only once the "waiting room for the stack" is cleared and everything is in order can players then respond again.
Ah yes. I didnt know the exact rulings, but i knew, if you both have a vein ripper (whenever a creature dies you gain 2 opponent looses 2) in play, never cast a boardwipe. Lots of opponents dont know this one tho, so they start attacking in. Result: I block with maximum trades; my vein ripper triggers after theirs; they loose the game.
Vein Ripper is a great current example!
I was cynical about your video title "win more game", thinking it might be clickbait. But I clicked anyway, prepared to block your channel. But, you came through. I already knew about apnap but I'm glad your title wasn't clickbait. Subbed.
I wanted to make the video because of all the Sheoldreds and Raffines floating around and watching people lose the game, because they would attack with their Raffine thinking their Sheoldred would trigger first 😅
@@attackoncardboard I've been watching your videos -- good stuff.
Remember when damage went on the stack? Ah, the shenanigans....
I think, thankfully, I only remember playing a single prerelease where damage went on the stack. I just remember how busted Mog Fanatic was.
Dimir group hug
Hivemind on the battlefield
Cast "One with Death"
The active player will be the last player to resolve their One with Death, resulting in them winning.
My understanding had always been that those kind of effects don't actually use the stack, and the active player's triggered abilities resolve first.
All abilities except mana abilities use the stack 🙂
I learned it's called Underworld OF Dreams..... I've been calling it Underworld Dreams for over 20 years. Hu, learn something new every day
😅 That's my mistake. Force of Habit. I always thought it was "OF" but it wasn't until I was editing the video until I realised my mistake 🤣
Say the guy with she-old has a cycling card in hand can he survive if he cycles at the end of his opps turn?
If the Sheoldred's controller cycles during the end of their opponents turn. The Underworld Dreams trigger would go on the stack first, then Sheoldred. They would gain 2 life first, then lose 1 to Underworld Dreams.
How about a situation when:
Player A has 9 poison counters
Player B has 1 hp and norns decree (Whenever one or more creatures an opponent controls deal combat damage to you, that opponent gets a poison counter.)
it's player A turn and he attacks player B with a lethal 1/1 creature. Who wins?
"Whenever" signifies a triggered ability.
So combat damage happens. Trigger gets put on stack. Before trigger resolves, the game sees a player on 0 life (state-based checks). Player B loses the game before the trigger can resolve.
I'll have a video on state-based checks in the future :)
It doesn't matter if I know the rule. What matters is if the judge knows the rule.
At a proper tournament (something larger than a FNM) you can always ask the head judge for a second opinion :)
how does this work if a creature an opponent controls attacks me, it has trample and I have let's say an aristrocrat effect in play and we're both at 1 life?
Combat damage happens before any triggered abilities get a chance to resolve. So the defending player would be at 0 or less life when the Aristocrat ability gets put on the stack and the defending player would die due to state-based check.
Recently tried to understand what cards activate with Yarok The Desecrated and what don't... gave up after 5 mins and chose another commander to build deck around lol
You're looking for cards with "Triggered abilities", specifically ones that trigger when some thing enters the battlefield.
If you watch my most recent video, it goes over the difference between activated and triggered abilities :)
One thing about APNAP I don't like: the same set of triggers produces a different result simply because of whose turn it is. IMO, the same boardstate should result have the same result.
No, I don't have a solution.
Just wait until you see replacement effects. In their case, the defending player gets to choose the order of how they're stacked, regardless of who controls them 😂
So. If i were to destroy a creature an opponent controls. And in response they sacrifice a creature to give the targeted creature indestructible. If i were to cast another spell to destroy the creature would it be destroyed? Because technically none of the abilities left the stack. So 1st in last out means the creature is destroyed before it gains indestructible?
Correct! (This is just how the stack and priority works in general. APNAP is how to order triggers that occur at the same time.)
I thought the state based check wouldn't go off until both abilities resolved
For clarification on my confusion - when is priority swapped between these abilities?
State-based checks happen before any player would receive priority.
In this case, abilities trigger and get placed on the stack, state-based checks happen. Active player then receives priority and then decides to pass it, checks happen again, non-active player receives priority and then decides to pass it. All players have now passed priority, the stack starts to resolve.
First ability resolves, state-based checks happen (assuming this doesn't cause the game to end) Active player then receives priority and the cycle is repeated.
Hope this clears things up 🙂
@@attackoncardboard I still don't quite get why they get priority before the second ability resolves. It feels like both should occur before priority should go around again, but rules be weird sometimes
Any time a spell or ability is resolved, each player gets a chance to respond again 🙂
@@attackoncardboard Ah my understanding has been that priority would go around on activated abilities and not go around on triggered abilities.
The only thing priority won't get passed on is Mana abilities. Keep an eye out for the next video 😉
I know that many people get confused with hybrid abilities that are both triggered and activated. There are very few but when they do happen they can confuse people to no end. I'll give you an example of how a triggered/activated ability would work.
The ability says once during your main phase or once during each main phase you can activate this ability. Another example is an old ability that says whenever a creature enters play or whatever you pay 2G you may draw a card.
The last example is cards that say when a creature attacks you may pay 2G and create x 1/1 green saprolings.
These are the best examples of hybrid activated and triggered abilities I can think of. I understand that some of them can also be considered to be a triggered ability with a cost but I was mostly trying to get the existence of the hybrid abilities explained a easily and directly as possible.
There are some other stranger things that either did exist or still do that players can manipulate into extremely difficult to understand situations. For example being able to use experiment khaj to be able to use multiple Planeswalkers abilities in high volume when you normally couldn't. The best way I have done this is to have multiple experiment khaj in play and Nicole bolas dragon God as a creature with a +1/+1 counter. The result is that you can easily use any possible ability of any Planeswalker as many times as copies you can create of experiment Khaj.
Just want to clarify a couple of things:
There's no such thing as hybrid abilities. There are 4 categories of abilities.
1. Spell Abilities: Any text on an instant or sorcery that you're resolving.
2. Activated Abilities: They are written as “[Cost]: [Effect.]”
3. Static abilities. Statement text on permeants that modify the rules.
4. Triggered abilities: Which usually begin with “when,” “whenever,” or “at.”.
In your first two paragraphs what you're describing is a Triggered ability. A real card example:
Teneb, the Harvester:
Flying
Whenever Teneb, the Harvester deals combat damage to a player, you may pay (2B). If you do, put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
That is a triggered ability that goes onto the stack, when it does, you may pay the cost.
With Experimental Kraj, WotC actually changed the rules to stop the card from abusing Loyalty abilities..
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
Used to say "Planeswalker" instead of "Permanent". So now you can only activate one loyalty ability per Experimental Kraj.
@Attack on Cardboard the ability to abuse experiment Khaj still exists just not in the original way. I believe I clarified that you somehow had copies of experiment kraj and that what you did with it was something along the lines of equipping Nicole bolas dragon God with the equipment that you can equip to Planeswalkers then placing a +1/+1 counter on it. The result is that as long as you have an open copy of experiment kraj you can use the ability of any of the Planeswalkers on the battlefield through experiment kraj. I am saying open meaning that it hasn't used a loyalty ability yet. This works because the ability is treated as if experiment kraj is the one who has the ability and is using it.
The next thing is that though I understand that there isn't a definite term for a hybrid ability I was trying to convey that while they don't exist according to the rules they exist in reality because there are some abilities that are either triggered abilities with a cost or in the case of the last ability I described can be used either with or without the a triggering activity.
Yup as I said, if you have multiple Kraj, you can activate one loyalty ability per Kraj.
Again, the last ability you described is still a triggered ability. Whether you pay the cost or not, the ability triggers when the creature attacks and then you make the choice to pay for it or not.
@Attack on Cardboard So even though the last ability I described can be activated without a triggering event it would still be described as a triggered ability or would it be described as an activated ability. The ability I described reads as follows when a creature enters play under your control or when you pay 2G you may draw a card it falls into either or not a hybrid. The only reason why I'm still bringing this up is because the last ability exists only on a single card and that is how it reads and works so you can draw a card when you play a creature or by paying a mana cost.
@@jedstanaland2897 "when" or "whenever" as a keyword denotes a triggered ability. Activated abilities are always structured [cost]: [effect]. The ability you described is very strange though, an ability triggered from paying a specific amount of mana doesn't sound right. Are you sure it isn't worded "When a creature enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay 2G. If you do, draw a card"? I have looked for a card with the effect you described and it doesn't exist, so I'm not sure which card you are referring to.
I got a 5 on my AP Nap test. 💤
According to arena they don't survive with sheoldred because underworld dreams triggers before sheoldred not at the same time
And now I understand why.
Here's my rule:
The most dangerous opponent is the one with untapped lands and a hand full of cards.
It's me, but with a hand full of lands 😭
fortunately Arena do that alone
There's a option in the menu for you to disable "auto stacking triggers" as some times the game doesnt stack them in the right order. So it's good to know the rule so you can make an informed decision if needed :)
but you have to look at the drawn card first because you can still respond with it if it's an instant.
That's why I said "they draw a Swamp for the turn" 😉
Most important occasion is living death :)
Nice call out! I don't often play Graveyard decks so I didn't think of that one!
I know its not ruled this way but i still think it should have beenthe other way around giving the active player the priority bc its their turn. Wonder why they decided to make the ruling shaft the active player?
There's another comment on this video someone where that makes total sense. Think of it like this.
When it's your turn, and you do something, priority is always passed to your opponent. So it would then make sense that if something you controlled, did something, priority would be passed to your opponent to do something. In this case, place their triggered ability on the stack.
If you see this as shafting the active player, then magic always shafts the active player. It is an extremely rare situation where the active player can do *anything* without everyone else having the chance to steal the stagelight, outside of special actions like playing lands. You aren't even allowed to move through individual phases of your turn without everyone having a say in it.
If it didn't work this way, the control archetype literally couldn't exist in it's current nature, and might not exist at all. Your advantage being the active player is the ability to order your actions and demonstrate options/threats first. The initiative is power enough for the amount of shafting with simultaneous effects to be more than warranted.
If you're that disgruntled with the rules, play five-color Hive Mind Pacts/Wheels. Then you'll be happy the game works the way it does.
I personally don't really like the APNAP thing.
Feels like it implies that there are only 2 players too much. Since all the crazy rules are often about multiple players.
Something like APFI for Active Player First In feels better. Which combined with the FILO nature of the stack, feels like it makes more sense.
MTG was initially a 2 player game, however it has evolved over time. APNAP literally just states that simultaneous triggers happen in turn order. Active Player, Non Activate player (IE every other no activate player)
Needs advice on holding priority.
Are you saying you personally need advice or that I should have mentioned about holding priority in the video?
@attackoncardboard The video or a sequel. Like this it can be super overlooked, or misunderstood, and is built on by understanding APNAP.
I've got a Google Note with all of the rules concepts I want to cover. This one is definitely on there 😁
Appreciate the comment/view :)
I have a question which I couldn’t find a good answer for online: EDH game, my opponent was piloting Arcades and played Aluren. In response, I sacked Qasali Pridemage targeting Aluren. In response to that, my opponent casts 4 creatures with Aluren using its ‘flash’ ability. Since I had a response everything went on the stack. Long story short, my position was that Qasali destroyed the Aluren before his draw triggers from Arcades would hit the stack. Im not sure I’m correct but I don’t think the answer would be that my opponent could potentially’go infinite’ if he kept finding castable creatures. Any opinions?
Yes, your opponent could go infinite if they kept finding castable creatures. So here's how things would look.
You have your QP in play. Opponent casts Aluren. It resolves they now have priority. They decide to pass the turn, priority is passed to you, we'll assume priority was passed until Opponents End Step.
At the start of their end step, you activate your QP, costs are paid and it's ability goes on the stack targeting Aluren.
In response, your opponent casts a 3 mana creature with defender at instant speed thanks to Aluren. The creature spell goes onto the stack, on TOP of your QP activated ability.
Assuming you have no further interaction, the creature resolves and enters the battlefield. Arcades will trigger, putting their draw ability on the stack on top of your QP ability. Assuming no responses, the trigger is resolved they draw a card. They have priority again and cast another 3 mana creature card with defender.
They can then repeat this loop until they decide to pass priority and let your QP ability resolve. Assuming they don't draw something to counter that ability, like cycling Nimble Obstructionist.
Hope that clears things up.
@@attackoncardboard that’s just sad. Krosan Grip it is!
Aluren is a powerful card. Cost reduction and removal of timing restrictions.
The active player is on his draw step, so his trigger should be first? Right? He gains 2 life then loses 1 life from a triggered ability of non active player... I don't get it :(
Both abilities, Sheoldred and Underworld Dreams, both trigger on the opponent drawing a card. So the overall question were answering is "how do you know which one resolves first?".
In this case, APNAP states the active player puts their ability ON the stack first, (not RESOLVE their ability first), then the non-active players ability goes on the stack.
We then resolve the stack top to bottom. So the Non-active players abilities will always resolve before the active player. Does that make more sense?
I've seen players go negative LP and then heal up within the same phase via mandatory card effects (e.g. during battle phase) and not lose in MTGA.
How does that work? True, after effects are resolved, the player DOES have >0 LP, but they DID go below during the turn -- should they have lost?
I mentioned this in another comment as another user brought this up.
MTGA technically misrepresents Lifelink. Damage happens simultaneously. So the defending player would never go to negative life. MTGA just shows it as two separate steps.
@@attackoncardboard I'm not referring to lifelink I'm referring to effects like (for example), Daxos Blessed By The Sun which gives +1 LP whenever a creature dies on your side of the field.
Lets say your opponent attacks, you have 2 LP. you block with two creatures, but still take 3 damage, taking you to -1. You lose those two creatures, but Daxxos gives you 2 LP back because of its effect, which must trigger since it didnt' get destroyed.
You now have 1 LP, but you did go below 0 during that damage step. Should you have lost the game at that point?
Any time a player receives priority, state-based actions are checked. So When Daxos' life gain ability gets placed on the stack, before the ability resolves, the game checks to make sure everything is ok. At this point, the game would see a player on 0 life or less and cause turn to lose.
@@attackoncardboard Thanks, that does explain things.
Thanks for the reply😁