They changed the rules... - March of the Machines - Rules Update
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- čas přidán 9. 04. 2023
- With the new Magic: The Gathering set: March of the Machine, some new rules have come into play. Specifically, around the new Incubator tokens. Thanks to this rule change, a number of old MTG cards just got a great buff! So here's what Incubate means for the MTG rules at large!
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a perfect, succinct little video about an underreported rules change with some very clear examples of what’s changing. great work! subscribed
Didn't expected to see you here, MTG deep dive foreshadowing or just playing a game, only time will tell.
Much appreciated 😁 Thanks for watching and subscribing, means a lot 🙂
holy shit, nick plays mtg??? you should make videos about it!
I'm mostly wondering why WOTC didn't just have it *become* a 0/0 instead of transforming into one. Just "2: This artifact becomes a 0/0 Phyrexian creature in addition to its other types." I like the change -- it'll create some interesting interactions for sure -- but I don't see why it was done.
The limited theme for UG is DFCs, with several cards referencing "Transformed permanents." (Flipped Battles, the Phyrexian DFCs, and Incubate/Phyrexian tokens).
It's also logistically much easier to remember whether a token is a creature or not using the DFC tokens (as opposed to just remembering), while the memory issues without the printed tokens is pretty much identical.
yeah, especially when they could've piggybacked off of the morph mechanic instead
Idk but I have an Ovika deck with Clone Legion and Blue Sun's Twilight in it so I'm not complaining
It's Limited. It is always Limited. But I really like this Limited format because of how many color pair archetypes the mechanics fit into. Take incubate tokens. It hits the WG counters, the UG transform, the RB Sac (especially the cards that can sac artifacts before paying the 2 mana), the WB Phyrexian deck, the GB incubate deck, etc.
An embalmed Vizier of Many Faces creates a one sided token copy of Vizier, not a token copy of another card. This rules change only applies to effects the CREATE a token copy of a transforming double-faced card. It does not change tokens becoming copies of another permanent.
Yup, I've 100% made a mistake here. I'll be uploading an update video to correct this mistake and clarify the rule around clone tokens. :)
This change flew under the radar! Thanks!
Thanks for watching 😃 I thought this was worth calling attention to as it's a nice interaction change
While in most situations this will buff token copiers, in some situations it nerfs them.
After all, imagine you’re doing a day/night werewolf deck, and make a token copy of one of your wolves during the night. Under the old rules, it wouldn’t turn back to it’s weaker, human side during the day. But under the new rules, it would.
My point is that Magic is a 30 year old jumbled mess of mechanics and that’s why I love it.
Rules about daybound/nightbound permanents specifically state that if you control a daybound permanent during the night or nightbound during the day, they transform immediately. So a token during the night will enter just like any day/night card, with its night side up.
@@egor6849 I knew that already?
My point was that they used to stay on their nightbound side during the day, since they didn’t have a back. But now, tokens CAN transform, since then can now have a back.
@@DS-tv2fi ah, got you, didn’t understand what you meant :)
@@DS-tv2fi Brutal Cathar enough said
The old werewolves that don't use day/night are the best example of this since a lot of the day/night have a transform effect and can benefit. For example, Mayor of Avabruck is very weak as a clone but a permanent Howlpack Alpha is pretty good.
Your end result is correct but the way you get there is not. I had to go read the official statement on it to see how you made the jump from card to permanent somehow making copies be double faced. It did not. They changed it in the next sentence so it’s two different things. It resulted from incubate but they could have changed the word card to permanent and not include copies but since they wanted people to be able to copy the incubators or their tokens they then said they allowed copies to also be double faxed.
So yes copies can now be double faced but not due to “card” being changed to “permanent”
Ah. I misinterpreted. I took it as 'card' meaning physical pieces of cardboard and "permanent" being a game object that doesn't always have a physical card to represent it 😅 Thanks for the clarifying.
@@attackoncardboard Yeah it’s weird that they print what any lay person would consider a card to represent tokens which are in fact by game rules not cards for anything that names cards. They changed card to permanent then because they literally just made a non card(token) that can flip and either at the same time or as an oopsie moment changed that.
Still interesting what shenanigans can now result from it.
@@johnj4471 They make the distinction that tokens are not 'Cards' even though token cards exist because by game rules any object that can reasonably show taped and untapped states can be used as a token, even in sanctioned events. the printed tokens are just convenient for extra clarity.
At the Innistrad pre-release, I had Cackling Counterpart and a transforming double-faced card, copied the card, and transformed the token. No opponent batted an eye. That's the way it should have worked then, and I was dismayed to learn that I was actually wrong about that interaction, because it made very little sense. I'm glad that because of their desire to make a transforming token, they've been forced to make that interaction work the way it really should have in the first place.
I now realized that this still doesn't solve the problem of a card copying a permanent being unable to transform (unless it already can by its own text), but we've at least fixed one of the issues.
Love the format of the video. Very straightforward and clear!
Glad you liked it! :)
Ratadrabik just got a big boost from this as well. It also creates interesting interactions with the Transformers cards since they all technically transform. Keep an eye on Delina in the future, i can see her getting crazy good with the right couple of transforming legends getting printed.
The comprehensive rules effectively say "Convert = Transform" so no changes there 🙂
@@attackoncardboard It doesn't change it, But when you can create tokens of some like Ratchet that can now flip back and forth, you open up some new combos.
This was a wonderful and informative video. Thank you!
Thanks for clarifying! It made perfect sense
I'm so glad someone clarified this. I initially assumed as well once the incubate tokens were revealed but wasn't sure. Very well presented
I appreciate the kind feedback 🙂 glad it made sense.
Nice. My draw deck still functions then. I designed a deck around creating a draw game state and one combo was Clever Impersonator + Garruuk Veil Cursed.
This was Very good to know for me, since I recently made a Sultai Transform deck on Arena, w some cloning and weird shenanigans!!
Really well explained and great editing. Surprised the video isn't more popular, you did a great job!
Hadn't heard of this rules change, but it seems pretty good. I'm slightly concerned about clone cards not interacting the same as clone tokens being confusing for some (especially newer) players but overall I think it's a positive change.
Really appreciate your kind words ☺️ perhaps I messed up the SEO 😅 I'll make some changes tonight.
Yeah, while the change was made clear for incubator tokens, they didn't explain the wider implications.
I think the rules for physical clones still makes sense because of them having an actual card back.
Tokens can now effectively just be thought of as a blank double faced card
@@attackoncardboard whatever you did worked lol. This kinda blew up. Congrats.
I can finally consider creating token copies of my untransformed Runo Stromkirk now, thanks for bringing this to my attention!
I think your last example really highlights the stupidity of the fact that clones can't transform. If an embalmed token version of a creature can transform, then a clone should clearly be able to. I understand that it's hard to track, but there's already a billion trickier interactions to follow and this would make sense from a logical perspective. I am wondering if this rule is being interpreted correctly though. A token may have a promo on the back, or a magic back of its own. Does that mean it can't transform? The way the rule is stated, it might only add in incubator tokens, because they are clearly double faced transforming permanents.
The game has evolved so much over the years. I still remember a time when the best way to destroy an opposing Jace the Mind Sculptor was by playing your own one (or the 3 mana one) and Legend Ruling it 🤣
Things could change in the future
I believe it might have something to do with tokens being a representative of a card compared to clones which are actual cards themselves.
A similar example would be why Leyline of the Void doesn’t stop death triggers from tokens since it explicitly states “If a card would be put into an opponent’s graveyard…”, compared to Rest in Peace which states tokens explicitly.
TIL: Leyline of the Void doesn’t stop death triggers from tokens. Nice!
Kinda wish they would have just put "becomes an artifact creature" and just leave the flipping part out altogether to avoid changing rules. You can even give it a new keyword, hatch.
Change is good for the game overall. It also raises confidence that things will continue to change for the better. Who remembers the original wording for Companion? Thank goodness for change 😅
First thing I thought about was how much more fun Momir Basic is going to be!
I'm keen to see if anything spicy comes from this in Commander (outside of the basics I called attention to in the video)
Good video, the thing I would change is that - yes some aspects of copying double faced cards is buffed, but it can also come with some down sides - good example in standard could be, it is Night-bound you control a Reflection of Kiki-Jiki & Frenzied Trapbreaker, end of your opponent turn you create a copy of Frenzied Trapbreaker (previously your opponent cast two thing in the turn), during your turn it turns to Day & both your card & token turn to Outland Liberator.
Swings and roundabouts. A good chunk of cards got buffed and if you're looking to lock in a side of a transforming cards, clone cards can help there
Great explanation.
This is a bit more confusing with clones not being able to transform but tokens being able too, but overall this is an awesome change!!! So many cool and interesting things can be done with this and can now happen in many formats. Thx wotc!!!
I literally had this with a copied Brutal Cathar just yesterday. Yay!
That was well explained!
Really appreciate the feedback. I'm currently editing another "Explain like I'm 5" rules video which I'm hoping will be ready by the weekend. I hope you'll enjoy that one too :)
@@attackoncardboard Awesome! Looking forward to it! :)
was unaware of this change, seems really awesome and also just more logical than the old rule... dfc's being able to be turned face down (like by ixidron) and stuff will still work as usual, but now you can make token copies that work logically! excellent!
I think this might make game play more confusing.. but over all a very interesting thing to consider. Always a huge fan of cracking counterpart
Easiest way to remember, Clones, no flip. Token copies, can flip
Overall a good change, the only scenario I can think of where it's worse is with Civilized Scholar, where you could basically loot your whole library as long as you had enough creatures in it.
Excited to finally put Runo Stromkirk back in my Scarab God deck
This is going to lead to so many completely unsalvageable board states as people attempt to make clones of stuff and then forget what side it's supposed to be on
I think those Whiteboard tokens I've seen will come in handy here. I think they're called InfiTokens
@@attackoncardboard Infinitokens, they're awesome
I have made an update video with the correct info on two points I got wrong in this video -> czcams.com/video/0bww024Pmm8/video.html
I've also included a couple of questions I got in the comments about this new rules change!
Thanks for the support!
You accidentally linked to the same video as this post is in.
Oh my word! Thank you for pointing that out! Fixed!
One card that hugely benefits from this is Tamiyo Compleated Sage.
it's a buff UNLESS you specifically wanted to play only the good side of a transformation.
Wow, I hadn't even thought about how the incubator tokens worked under the old rules, I kinda just assumed that it worked as intended without realizing the old rules prevented the mechanic from functioning. Now my Riku deck has some new toys to play with.
Interesting that it doesn't affect clone cards. Though, that does mean that the changes thankfully don't mess with e.g. the synergy of Mairsil caging Civilized Scholar.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the last example with the Vizier of Many Faces does not work due to the last line of rule 707.8a: "This rule does not apply to tokens that are created with their own set of characteristics and enter the battlefield as a copy of a transforming permanent due to a replacement effect.". There's an example in the rules of this interaction: "Clone is not a transforming double-faced card, so a token that is created as a copy of a Clone is not a transforming token, even if it enters the battlefield as a copy of a transforming permanent due to Clone’s replacement effect.".
You're correct. And I just released a new video explaining I was wrong and why 😅
@@attackoncardboard Oh my bad, I didn't realise that you had uploaded a correction. I'll be sure to check it out!
Good news but the difference of treatment between clones and copy cards lacks rule consistency to me. they should apply the same changes to clone effects imho
Mirrorhall Mimic is a TDFC Clone
So it can transform when copy something
BUT Copy effects like Mirrorhall Mimic, still copy only the current up face, even if the creature still can transform, it just stays in the face it copied
Makes sense.
i'm wondering specifically about the interaction with other mechanics, like if you manifest a card facedown or similar and turn it into a incubator token would the transform ability work and, if it does, does it turn into the card you had facedown or into a phyrexian creature token?
Idk I think this rules change introduces more confusion. the fact that its only tokens is awkward enough, but also having to remember which side a token copy of a card is on could be difficult
going to need to be a rule clarification on Glasspool Mimic which is a clone with a doubled side in effect
It's a modal double faced card. It cannot transform.
Ok so what are some trick you can do now that were previously locked by the ruling?
This. This is what the Kamigawa Flip mechanic was for.
While i believe this is a fitting rules change, I've had enough games where copying a double sided card that flips (namely graveyard trespasser) on it's flipped side before it flips again is quite strong. So no more graveyard trespassers being flipped and not flipped
You know how people talk about purpose and destiny? Up until this moment I have felt the pull of Brudiclad. Deck after deck nothing felt janky or fun enough for my metal boy.
Today begins plans for my final tribute/attempt to satiate the beast that is my deck building itch for Brudiclad, with my new edh deck.
Welcome to Inistrad, Brudiclad.
We’ll time to make the two face clone army i though of years ago that didn’t work do to the rule
so with faerie artisans that makes a token copy creature of a creature an opponent controls, now if it comes in as a tolovar's huntmaster, it can transform when it becomes night and day?
Yup :)
It seems like it would be more intuitive if clones also acquired the back sides of the cards they are cloning but perhaps there are other rules ramifications if that were implemented
Morph is the first rule that comes to mind. Can't turn Transform cards face down if there on the Battlefield
Wow....the golden guardian in my precursor golem copy spell deck is actually kind of good now.
Ah no. I thought it through. The Guardian actually dies so the token copy stops existing. Oh well.
A really good change in terms of making the game more intuitive on one end, but I wonder why they decieded to not allow clone cards to flip as well. While this will be good in terms of choosing which you want (permanent backsides in the form of clone, vs shapeshifting clone tokens), it would probably be more intuitive to allow them to. I dunno tho xD
Esix, fractal bloom appreciates this video
I forget that card exists!
so the back face of a card is now a copyable value, but only sometimes?
A wonderful buffed though - Michael Tolin
Don't know if MTG Arena have other rules but the tokens copie of my werewolf always act has a copie of the double face card... if it Day the are up if it become night they flip side down. I use Helm of the Host from BRO and Delina from AFR.
I feel like if that was the case I would have seen plenty of other people reporting that prior to this video. A bit hard to test as I'm not sure if the new rules have gone into affect on Arena
Helm of the host with Praetor sagas would be fun
Not as fun as you think. When you activate the Praetor's ability the token would go to exile and stop existing.
and here i thought this was gonna be about cards like animatous Argory now having an extra card type (battle) to cast for free etc.
Hope it at least provided a little bit of new knowledge for you :) Thanks for watching
Does this also count for convert mechanic of the Transformers?
Sure does 😁
what happens if you turn your transforming commander into a copy of an incubator, transform the incubator, then remove the copying effect?
Assuming Incubator is a creature through a March of the Machine effect and an Anthem effect (so the 0 mana incubator doesn't die).
You can pay 2 to transform, it will remain a Incubator due to layers, then you remove the copy effect, you would have a transformed commander
Claire D'Loon, Joy Sculptor from Unfinity would have a field day with that last ruling lol. Yeah it's not really tournament legal, but rulings wise the card effect might be?!
I some how managed to open two foil copies of her. Gutted she isn't legal in any format 😭
@@attackoncardboard beauty of playing for fun with friends tho. As long as we all agree on it, illegal cards like un-cards are perfectly fine for the sake of fun and experimenting!
100% agree. Rule 0 is something everyone should be aware of.
So what about a morphed permanent card currently that somehow steals a transform ability?
So what happens when progenitor mimic copies a transformed nuwerewolf? Will the tokens it spits out automatically be of itself or the untransformed day bound version?
I imagine we’ll get a ruling on this sooner or later.
EDIT -*Missed this comment when I was going back and editing my comments. My below statement was wrong, the tokens cannot transform, the same way Progenitor Mimic can't transform. The tokens will copy its single faced-ness. *
So clone cards will only ever be the face they copied and they can't flip, even if something instructs them to. That hasn't changed.
The tokens it would produce will be double faced and could transform like normal.
@@attackoncardboard Progenitor mimic copies shouldn't be able to transform because they're a copy of progenitor mimic not the creature progenitor mimic copied. And progenitor mimic doesn't have a backside to copy
@@jacobisbell9388 Correct. I missed this comment when replying to all the others when I realized I made the mistake. Follows the same rules as the Vizier of Many Faces token.
If the card says "exile ~, then return it to the battlefield transformed" will this work with tokens? Or do they cease to exist when exiled?
Tokens stop existing when changing zone. So the second one.
Did i get that right? If i play the card "Clone" on a doubleface card and use "Inalla, Archmage Ritualist" ability to make a "Clone" token, that token can transform but the original "Clone" cant?
The token you get from Inalla copies all characteristics of Clone card, including its Single faced-ness. So it wouldnt be able to transform.
Ok so what happens when I use mishra to copy an incubator token and I flip it. Do I still have to sacrifice it at the end of turn
Thankfully, Misra's ability makes the token a 4/4, if you made a copy of the incubator token with another ability that didn't give it power and toughness (Sculpting Steel for example) once you transform it, it would die due to state-based checks due to having zero power and toughness. The +1/+1 counters are put on it as part of the Incubate X ability.
And yes you would still have to sacrifice it. Transforming a card doesn't make it a new game object.
So I don't know if it is a arena thing but I've been playing Runo Stromkirk and when I make a token of him it transforms into Krothuss when the original would.
Arena must have been broken all this time then 😂
Would be interesting to see if clones of him Transform. Might have to do a game against Sparky and see.
@@attackoncardboard I've made clones/tokens with helm of the host, mirror image, mirrorhall mimic, spark double, and another I think. They all are able to flip... I've been playing that basically I think I'm about 120 games or so
Tokens were only able to flip as of the 14th of April 😂 Clones have never been able to flip.
@@attackoncardboard well arena has let me flip them for about a month or 2 now and it's been janky as hell fun
If the rule change helps the plays to be SIMPLER - then GO FOR IT!
Yes! Change is good! 🙌
so heres a odd question. mtggold fish did a video about enduring angel being copied on to Ludevic, Necrogenius with true polymoph. this made it so when you hit 0 life the enduring angel would set it to 3 tranform the ludevic and because of layers ludevic would still be enduring angel thanks to true polymorph but not lose the game because it did transform.
my question is with the new rules change would true polymoph also copy the back half of the angel for when the Ludevic transforms off the angels effect making it a Angelic Enforcer?
I don't believe anything changes in this case because of this rule:
707.8. When copying a melded permanent or other double-faced permanent, use the copiable values of
the face that’s currently up to determine the characteristics of the copy.
So for things like Jace and bolas, a token can exist in Exile AND return transformed?
A token can't exist in exile and a token changing zones causes it to cease to exist.
So then it doesn't work for flip Jace or other cards that say Exile then return transformed
No, it doesn't work for tokens copies of cards that move to exile in order to transform.
So I’m guessing that although Progenitor Mimic cannot transform, the tokens it creates will be able to transform.
Correct on the first half. But the tokens will still copy the characteristics of the Progenitor mimic. And since PM didn't copy the back face of a card (because it can't), the token will be a single face card.
Brudiclad Telchor Engineer is a very happy Phyrexian today. I cannot wait to abuse this rule change.
Oh yes! Totally forgot about him! Big buffs there!
Does it mean that creating a token that is copy of Thing in the Ice and then cast one any instant/sorcery will lead token to flip and trigger Awoken Horror ability?
The token would still enter with the counters and can flip in the same ways as the original card.
@@attackoncardboard I think that trick would work with Blade of Shared Souls though, since the token becomes a copy after it enters the battlefield. If I’m interpreting that correctly, what would happen if you unequipped the Blade after the token transformed? Fun stuff
Hmm. I think this is a similar discussion I'm having in another thread. The question to answer is, "Is the 2/2 red Rebel creature token a double face permanent?" No. the rebel token is a red 2/2 creature with no transform abilities, therefore it won't be consider a double faced permanent, so then it will not transform when it becomes a copy of Thing in the Ice.
So can I clone a Nicol Bolas the Ravager with Splinter Twin to create the flipped side of Nicol Bolas? (Notably not Kiki Jiki since he specifies non-legendary)
You certainly can, but you're not going to get the outcome you want.
Situation 1 - You create a token copy of NBtR and activate his transform ability. As part of the ability's resolution, the token goes to exile and because the token changed zones. It not longer exists and therefore cannot return to the battlefield.
Situation 2 - You create a token copy of NBtR, make him a Human and play Moonmist, the token copy of NBtR will transform into the Planeswalker and then will immediately move the the graveyard as part of state-based actions as he has no loyalty counters on him. This is why NBtR exiles himself, Planeswalkers always enter the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters marked in the bottom right. If it doesn't ETB, no counters, bye bye Planeswalker 😂
@@attackoncardboard thank you for the quick response! RIP that would have been a wild interaction to pull off haha, though I'm interested in seeing what other ways this can be abused
So interesting interaction that I think works: Because the rules states that non transforming permanents can’t become transforming permanents (which is why clones can’t flip) it implies transforming permanents are always transforming permanents even if they copy something else. So could you use Shameless Charlatan to make your Nicol Bolas, the Ravager (which transforms into a planewalker) into something like Capative Weird, which allows you to still pay mana to transform it. Since the card was and remains a transforming card, it will still transform, and since transform just instructs you to turn the card over and not into anything specific, the Captive Weird clone would turn into Nicol Bolas the Ravager? It’s convoluted and doesn’t save mana but I bet there is some weird jank you could do
i litrally just built a clone deck a week ago
How would Progenitor Mimic work with this?
Pretty confident Mimic will be a 1 sided transform card and the tokens it makes will be double faced.
Does this also work with copies on the Stack like Volo?
Also does this affect Morph?
Volo will created double faced tokens if the creature is double faced.
No changes to Morph :)
I just do happened to create a copy cat deck before MoM leaks 😎
So if double-faced tokens are DFTs, what will that mean if Wizards makes no-faced tokens?
It's actually triple faced cards that are coming next 🤣 They're using the same tech that makes you have to try putting in a USB 3 times before it goes in.
Would tokens created by effects like kiki jiki no longer be sacrificed if they've been transformed because it's no longer the same name?
Transforming a card or token doesn't cause it to become a new game object. In the same way buffs like Giant Growth aren't lost on transformation. Debuffs like "Sacrifice at end of turn" stay too
@@attackoncardboard got it, thanks for the reply!
So if I have a squirel/Marit lage token the squirel can become a marit lage?
Tokens have always been able to become copies of things. That's never changed. What has changed is that tokens can 'flip'/transform.
In your example, your squirrel could become a copy of Lage, but you would have to sacrifice one of them due to the Legend rule.
@@attackoncardboard no I have a token where 1 side is a squirrel and the backside is Marit lage(modern masters 1) is that the transform.
Ah. Transform cards are indicated by either a certain symbol (moon/sun, and some others I can't write y remember), or a Triangle in a circle in the top left corner.
If you look up the card, Delver of Secrets, you'll see what I mean.
I think the main distinction is that it spells out what both sides are when you incubate, whereas most of double sided cards just say “transform” and not what it transforms *into*
You mean on the reminder text?
That doesn't have any effect on rules.
The same card could be reprinted without it, affecting nothing.
Now they need to fix the werewolves.
Yeah it's a shame Daybound/Nightbound is a thing. It puts a solid divide between old and new Innistrad
-Are you sure about that? It seems that the tokens still only copy the characteristics of the card in whatever form it's in. Unless they've changed the copy mechanics, they won't be able to transform.-
The above is incorrect. The copy rules have been updated to allow tokens to be double-sided when they copy double-sided permanents.
707.8a: If an effect creates a token that is a copy of a transforming permanent or a transforming double-faced card not on the battlefield, the resulting token is a transforming token that has both a front face and a back face. The characteristics of each face are determined by the copiable values of the same face of the permanent it is a copy of, as modified by any other copy effects that apply to that permanent. If the token is a copy of a transforming permanent with its back face up, the token enters the battlefield with its back face up. This rule does not apply to tokens that are created with their own set of characteristics and enter the battlefield as a copy of a transforming permanent due to a replacement effect.
I've 100% made a mistake with Vizer Of The Many faces. It's token cannot transform.
But the cards like Cackling Counterpart, Kiki, anything that says "create a token copy", will now create a double faced token.
Muldrotha got nerfed at some point.
If you had an effect that let you play multiple lands per turn, Muldrotha originally let you play Dryad Arbor as your creature and Darksteel Citadel as your artifact.
With the newer wording, you have to _cast_ your artifacts and creatures (and enchantments... _Urza's Saga_ ...).
what ruiling is that?
Muldrotha hasn't has any rules changed or added. It's been the same since 11/10/2020 .
gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=443087
Does this mean that if I can make tokens of Enduring Angel they can now flip so I won't lose the game?
Correct 😁
@@attackoncardboard Sweet. Not really sure what that does for me, but it's good to know.
So what about the Vesuvan Shapeshifter? It has an ability that allows it to be turned facedown. What happens if I have it enter as the new Elish? Can it flip into the enchantment saga?
Also what happens if someone creates a token of Elish and I use Vesuvan Shapeshifter on that token rather than the actual Elish herself?
Vesuvan Shapeshifter is a single face card. Morph is different to Transform. If Vesuvan Shapeshifter becomes a copy of Norn and you activate the ability. - "Exile Elesh Norn, then return it to the battlefield transformed under its owner’s control. Activate only as a sorcery." As per the video, if something instructs you to transform a single faced card, nothing happens. Vesuvan Shapeshifter will exile itself, and then return to the battlefield as a copy of another creature, or if there are no creatures, die to state based actions for being a 0/0 :)
@@attackoncardboard Not arguing with you. And thank you for replying. Just trying to get this. Shapeshifter says "at the beginning of your upkeep you may turn this create face down."
So let's say we aren't using Elish's ability to exile, but using Shapeshifter's flip ability.
Also let's say someone makes a token copy of Elish and you Shapeshifter that. Is there any difference?
Last possible scenario is you play a copy spell. The ones that say copy of permanents spells are tokens. Is there any difference between the Shapeshifter copying an Elish and the token copying the Elish?
Thank you buddy.
I will say something here feels like it works. I remember Seffeon Olive did a deck that flipped humans and had human Jace out. He didn't realize that flipping the Jace rather than exiling it would actually kill it because it flipped into a Jace Planeswalker with no loyalty. So went to the graveyard instantly. I feel like there is something here.
I'm not taking this as an argument. It's a discussion about the rules and I'm more than happy to do that. I've admitted I'm wrong plenty of times today 😅
Situation 1. V.Shapeshifter is a copy of new Norn, what happens when we trigger V.Shapeshifters ability?
This is how I wrap my head around it. Pick up your clone. In this case, VShapeshifter. Does it have an MTG logo on the back of it? If it's does, this card cannot transform. It can copy a transform card but nothing can cause it to transform to the other face. Nearly every clone card has this restrictions (Glasspool mimic and Dance of Many have different rules). In this case, VShapeshifter would turn facedown and become a colorless 2/2 with no abilities.
Situation 2. VShapeshifter is a copy of a token of new Norn.
Same rules as above.
Situation 3. Creating a token of new Norn with a spell and activating it.
Tokens cease to exist when they change zone. Part of Norm's ability causes itself to move to exile. So the token goes poof
Situation 4. Somehow getting a token of VShapeshifter and cloning Norn.
The token copy copies all charactistics. Including if it's a single face or double faced card. Refer to situation 1.
I hope this helps 😁
@@attackoncardboard I'm glad you understand and took the time to explaining it.
I just wonder if there is some way to make what I'm trying to make happen happen. Like I said Saffron used the flip human card that is supposed to turn humans into warewolves and flipped a Jace prodigy. It then died as a Planeswalker because it didn't exile and come back with loyalty counters. It just flipped into a walker with no loyalty. That's why I'm trying to figure out a scenario where you can flip a VShapeshifter into the saga half of it. Can you think of a scenario where you can? Like I know tokens can flip now. So is there a way to make this happen? Possibly play the VShapeshifter and copy it while on the stack. There's a newer card that says copy target spell. Then says (Copies of permanent spells are tokens.)
I just think using this with Elish or Jin would be so good. Every upkeep flipping it to the saga that says draw cards equal to the number of cards in your hand or basically create 5 2/2's would be fun to do in a casual game.
@@attackoncardboard I found one that does it in case it helps. Double Major. And also See Double.
Sounds like a new needlessly complicated change, like we needed more of those
So, now we can create tokens of that angel from Innistrad that prevents you from dying?
Yes 😁
You could always create tokens of it, but now they can transform 😂
The funniest thing about this to me is that token copies of Fable of the Mirror Breaker can now transform.
They can, but the token ceases to exist on chapter 3.
"III - EXILE this Saga, then return it to the battlefield transformed under your control."
Hmm.
I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.
So, if Blade of Shared Souls is equipped to a token that copies a double-faced card, it can transform; but if it's equipped to a nontoken creature, it can't?
While the double faced token can definately transform, due to Blade of Shared Souls ability, it will remain a copy of whatever creature it copied until the Blade is unequipped.
Non token transform creatures also follow this rule.
Congratulations, they couldn't have done it more complicated.
Not to mention the rule differences between creating a copy and becoming a copy.
Anyone gets a clone trigger: "JUDGE!!!"
I want background to be legal with commanders with the card stating chooose background
Not sure I catch your meaning. The legendary creatures that have the "Choose a Background" ability allow you to have a background as a second commander in the Commander format.
I really like the quality of your video. Some recommendations would be to adjust your sounds settings. I can hear your mouth making noises while you talk 😅
Thank you for watching and the feedback. I'm aware of that issue 😅 and I've been trying to improve that. If I can't cut it out, I just pray the background music can cover it a bit. I'll definitely be researching some more ways to fix that going forward :) Thanks again for the support :)
What about invasion of amonkhet? It is double faced itself and has a clone effect 👀
You answered your own question. It is a transforming card that has a front/ back face. So yes it can transform.
Most Clone cards are single faced, therefore cannot transform.
Another question would be: How is the interaction with Brudiclad?
Let's say you have 3 treasure token, a token copy of 'concealing curtains'.
Brudiclad trigger in the battle phase.
You choose that every token becomes a 'concealing curtains'. Do all token have the ability to transform?
If not exchange the three treasure token with originally created incubator token. Can 4 concealing curtains transform? The myr one is neglected.
If both don't work, the assumption must be made that only a 'created' copy token of a DF permanent can transform.
Situation 1. No. When created treasure tokens were "single sided". Single sided "cards" can't copy the other face of a DFC.
Situation 2. Incubator tokens would be able to transform, but when they do, they'll still be Concealing Curtains due to layers.
Yes, created tokens of DFC can transform.
@@attackoncardboard thanks for clarifying 🙂👍
I'm looking to make a ELI5 video about layers as there's been so many questions about Situation 2. I didn't know at first either until jumping into the comments and going through MTG Judge forums 😅
Are you sure? I thought it was only possible for Incubate Tokens to flip. No other token. I never looked up the rules on it. Just assumed.
Yup. It says so on the official MOM release notes.
Would this also impact Morph cards?
Nothing has changed for morphs. A morph creature is a 2/2 with no abilities, and that's what a clone or token copy of a morph would be.
@Attack on Cardboard appreciate the response. Had not looked at the direct ruling, so it was not clear how much had changed. I really wish they would give the mechanic some more love.
Hopefully we go back to Tarkir or a new plane with Morph in 2024, my Kadina Commander needs more cards! 🤣
@@attackoncardboard All I can say is I had a silly turn in a Bhaal deck the other next with Yedora and Grim Haruspex. (Sac the Haruspex, make it a forest, tap it for G, pay B to turn it face up again... lather rinse repeat)
@@Jerhevon I still need to get my hands on Yedora. I want a copy for my Myrkul deck :D
I knew these were coming a year ago I really had a Vision ...as this is the Token I made then
Creates a 3/3 Phoenix creature token with Flying Haste when this token dies it creates a 2/2 token and when this token dies create a 1/1 token
I know it has really nothing to do with transform but it make the reappear and not just Fade in to Nothing !!
Nice! Reminds me of the "There's always a bigger fish" card, Reef Worm 😂
So can tokens meld now?
Meld requires both Melding cards to exile. So the tokens would cease to exist as they changed zones.
701.37c If an effect instructs a player to meld objects that can’t be melded, they stay in their current zone.
Example: A player owns and controls Midnight Scavengers and a token that’s a copy of Graf Rats. At the beginning of combat, both are exiled but can’t be melded. Midnight Scavengers remains exiled and the exiled token ceases to exist.
@Attack on Cardboard Bummer, maybe next decade.
I think this is one rule that won't change unfortunately. The exiling part is crucial and tokens ceasing to exist when changing zones is a big one too
@@attackoncardboard That's fair bit knowing Wizards anything is possible
Calix is great with sagas
I'm building Tom Bombadil Commander, Calix would go great there too :D
I've never seen a double faced cod
We're about to get a bunch of new ones in the new March of the Machine set releasing next week :D
@@attackoncardboard lol good sport