Septuagint VS Masoretic Text | 100K Subs (Silver Play Button) Ammon Hillman & Kipp Davis
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Article on Psalm 22:
cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/3...
We are discussing the Greek Septugaint & Hebrew Masoretic Text.
Which is the oldest?
Which one is a translation?
Panel:
Dr. Kipp Davis (Ph.D Biblical Hebraic Studies)
Subscribe to @DrKippDavis
Derek Lambert
Subscribe to @MythVisionPodcast
Dr. Ammon Hillman (Ph.D Greek & Latin Classical Philology)
Subscribe to @ladybabylon666
2nd Channel:
/ @latenitegnosis
Follow me on Twitter:
/ nealsendlak1
Discord:
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#gnosticinformant #100k #silverplaybutton - Zábava
Kipp was telling Derek to shut up, Neil to be quiet, interrupting everyone ,and acting like he's superior. Ammon saw the king has no clothes and called him out. It was glorious.
Ammon knows his stuff. I love his style. The way he moves about, the facial expressions are priceless. Also, the preparation he did beforehand stood out. Ammon wins hands down.
Kipp was laughing and sneering when Ammon was talking. No wonder Ammon went on the attack.
He was also telling people to shut up at the beginning. Even told Neal to shut up so he could babble about nothing and forget what hes saying mid sentence again.
When you’re telling the truth, you don’t get so easily offended. Kipp was so rude to both Derek and Neal. Dr Ammon let Dr Kipp speak for over 1/2 hour uninterrupted…..Dr Ammon was not given the same time to speak his mind. I used to listen to Dr Kipp all the time. I did not like his attitude at all and see that he isn’t open to learn. We should all want the unbiased truth.
First offence then investigation, after humbleness and more learning which leads to knowing 🤓 … Good stuff ❤ here !!!
@@LydiaSfun 🙌
I disagree. I thought Ammon was very obnoxious
I thought the complete opposite, Ammon was very rude to Kipp
I agree kipp is a snub
Another thing to consider Dr. Ammon has stood against academia before when the consensus was against his thesis only to be proven right a full decade later . If this man is telling you something you’d be unwise to discount what he’s saying .
Could you share details?
@nathannavarrete7481 Yes, I do, and I have Googled Dr. Hillman and not come up with much, so I asked the person who made the claim if they can share more information.
Assuming what you are saying is even correct (I have no idea), being right once has little influence on what one will be right about in the future. What Ammon is saying here is so wild to literally every expert on the planet so no, it would be wise to discount what he saying for this reason alone...nonetheless the infinite reasons to reject his view.
@@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou tell that to carl a p ruck for 30 years scholarship treated him like a pariah until archaeology and chemical analysis were able to prove his theories. There are more factors at play than can be accounted like 1500 years of Attempts to obfuscate history by biblical scholars.
Well said
First time seeing this and realizing Kipp Davis has totally misrepresented what had occurred. He was the one being rude, literally telling both hosts to shut up, and then constantly interrupting Ammon after he had given Kipp plenty of time to speak uninterruptedly. Not that Kipp had said anything especially profound. Where's all of that supposed pree-Greek Hebrew literature at??
Congrats on the 100k man! You been grinding for sure!
Grinding. That's the word! 😁😁
I don't know how I missed this episode 10 months ago and I'm only seeing the other videos from this topic now, but here 10 months later and the channel is at 190k!
Dr Ammon is the man.
I am no scholar or philologist, but Dr. Hillman's argument holds some merit, especially given the fact that, I think it was you Neal, that even showed video evidence of chapels IN ISRAEL, that have GREEK writing on the walls and NOT Hebrew! So if Hebrew was such an often used language of the era why Greek and not Hebrew? And It has been my experience that if someone who trying to argue their point of view is constantly telling the others in the room to "SHUT UP" or "Be Quiet" invalidates their arguments on face simply due to the insecurity such behavior exhibits 🤷♂️
Ammons facial expressions to the shit Kipp was saying made my day.
Congrats Neal. Much love ❤
1:07:50 Kipp tells Ammon to listen. Ammon is already irritated because Kipp has told both hosts to shut up. Now he is telling Ammon, "Listen! Listen!" Ammon advises him he does not have to listen and so Kipp quits. I heard Kipp tell another channel that Ammon was rude so he left...I don't think Kipp is used to people talking to him in the same way he talks to them. Ammon won this by default and would have won anyway. I took notes and I'm going to research the questions for myself. Kipp's best point involves the Infinitive Absolute and how it would be strange if the Hebrew translated from Greek involved this item. Ammon's best point is translations can't add complexity and technicality if it does not exist in the source text.
If these two can then they should do this again.
I don’t know how people can listen to Kip
I've seen this for the first time now because I couldn't find it before. Kipp definitely misrepresented what had happened during this. He was the one being extremely rude, both to the hosts and Ammon.
Yes, they should do this again but someone else with expertise in both languages should probably be involved as well.
I agree that Kipp's best point was Infinitive Absolute, but don't think Ammon's best point was; translations can't add complexity and technicality. They can and it often happens by default if the language a text is being translated into, is a more sophisticated language - in this case Greek.
Ammon's best point was: everything that has existed in the Hebrew scriptural corpus for the past 2200 years or so, was translated from the Greek Septuagint. That's for sure. Anything else is a guessing game.
His second best point: where is all of this supposedly original or revived Hebrew literature?? We have so much Sumerian, Assyrian and Egyptian literature, which is much older...even remnants of other Canaanite inscriptions. Where are ancient Hebrew texts, beyond a few magic spells and amulet inscriptions?
@@alexlarsen6413 the video is unlisted probably because it’s gentlemanly to do so. It was an unfortunate ending to have Kipp walk off but Kipp might not be the best fit here. There are many Christian’s focused on everything coming out of his mouth right now because they want answers for these Greek documents. It might help if the other side of the debate were more spiritually invested and not just emotionally. Or have a Greek philologist, Hebrew philologist and a linguist expert hash out 20 selected verses. Hillman vs Kipp with moderator __________.
@@G4L4CTICR4DIO I see. I couldn't find it before but now it appeared in my suggestions. Shame this happened right when Neal was celebrating 100k subs.
At any rate the whole thing went viral only now after Ammon and Neal were guests on Danny Jones' podcast. The only thing I'm invested in is the truth, but I don't speak either ancient Greek or ancient Hebrew. Ammon doesn't speak ancient Hebrew and Kipp doesn't speak ancient Greek (he probably knows only a bit of koine Greek) so they're talking past each other. The result is most of us don't really know what to think about this. The only thing I can say as a guess is, the Hebrewisms in LXX might be there due to the authors who wrote it down in Greek having been Hellenistic Jews.
The best thing would be a civil discourse between entirely different people, for instance dr. Richard Miller on the classicist side (especially since he reads ancient Hebrew too), some expert on Torah who speaks ancient Greek as well, on the other side - such a person must exist somewhere...and of course an objective moderator.
Very intense and fascinating tonight. Congrats on 🎉subs! Love your channel. Thank you for all the work you put into the thought provoking content you provide. 🙏
A much needed revisitation much love for Dr.Ammon
Glad to see you live congratulations on 100,000!
I appreciate Derek and you doing the previous live cast the day after I lamented the lack of recent livecasts!
Thank you and keep up the good work!
Kip confuses me. He runs around questions with opinions. I love you Ammon u. You’re a genius. My Prussian family use to say everything he says. They knew about krampus. The drugs. Taking the naughty children. The virgins. I was warned early. Ammon you’re a gift. I will marry you one of these lives swear on it.
Nice subject and discussion. Rather weak that Kipp skipped out though
What it shows is that curiosity sort of dropped off and people stopped digging into information past a certain comfort point. The best part of this talk is gnostic and myth vision being totally engaged and exploring information that is out there. This arena is a place created where people can wrestle with ideas openly. It’s great! It’s get people talking.
Congratulations. I've learned so much here. And I'm also learning Greek with Ammon. It blows my mind. Take care!
QUIET NEAL!!!😂😂😂
Exactly. Rude, easily butt hurt, full of hubris, defensive, etc, etc
Too much Adderal..I mean medicine for podcasters/interviewers
😂😂😂
Congratulations on the 100k plus subs! Well earned and deserved, Neal!
I love that we are arguing about this as if it matters. For any other book we would agree to disagree and just study and enjoy the text. But because so many have staked their lives and afterlife on it, we literally have to dissect it in all sorts of ways to make it true or not true.
I agree and so I’d say if you have a financial interest in one answer or the other your view should be discounted I know Ammon does not how about the other guy ?
god not real so why study bible? cavemen have the most shallow perspectives.
I disagree, I think it matters for any book that people are trying to use to govern others, otherwise I agree
One of my all time fav channels. Glad I found you.
This is why Kip doesn’t do these debates or talks anymore. He got exposed and turned the whole thing into an emotional fight. You could see how Neil and Derek were so shook…but they need to be able to handle these situations and understand when the talk is getting emotional. Ammon looked like he has been in this situation before and laughed it off. It was fun for Ammon. 😂
You don’t laugh at someone with a PH.D. and expect it not to offend them…only if you are looking to get cooked and rage quit.
@@hermes2056Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Remember that the next time you feel like you need to comment.
@@hermes2056You are projecting. You got that sting of being exposed and now you hit out like a child.
The Hebrew texts are a Greek work…get over it. If you don’t like Ammon’s take, check out Russell Gmirkin and his books. Or the book mentioned in the video by Joseph Yahuda.
Do some research, child.
@@williamwilson6499 do some research?
You: these entirely irrelevant crackpots say x.
What is there to research? Ammon can't read Hebrew. You know that right? Ammon couldn't collate a Greek text, and Hebrew text. Responding to you is a waste of time.
Me: a basic understanding of textual criticism makes this hypothesis untenable.
You: ignores what I said of substance, commits a genetic fallacy, ad homs.
It’s so funny how they try to tame him. He’s a force -Daemon 😂 😊
Congratulations Neal 🎉🤲🙏🙏🙏
This is so freaking cool
love when you live. Your passion is contagious. The documentaries are well produced. I am hoping one day you and mythvision will produce a new series on the historical jesus to give the general audience the raw instead of the stuff people get in mainstream jesus shows like chosen series that try to harmonize the gospels
Almost 200k now brother 🔥❤️🔥
Ammon brought facts drawn from much more knowledge and study of ancient Greek.
After a long-winded verbal vomiting that kip had at the start, he continued to interrupt Ammon and was clearly defensive from the start as well.
Ammon, being an honest guy, was patient long enough, I thought. And, he had every right to call kip out.
Hebrew is an inferior language and that hurts him. He's mad inside that he was being shit on by Ammon with knowledge and objective truths.
Agreed that kip should've come prepared for fs sake
@@georgek9726 he will never come prepared. Kipp will make a 4 hour shit talk about why he is right, but he won't debate Ammon.
Not a Greek construction. The mystery was world wide. It was the Greek alphabet that allowed it to be written down exactly how it sounded and not mystified with obscure words or hieroglyphs.
Now that it was written in Greek any man and his dog who could work with Greek could read the mysteries. Then other got it and began to write it down
very nice to hear the discussion and I find you all inspiring as each of s learns and grows. Cheers for the discussion. Great content and great work from all of you! I totally agree with Ammon, you guys are doing the work to get to the truth, without the dogma! many thanks. will be studying and learning from your work, eye opening and life changing! Yep, history making stuff, coaxing souls and changing culture, by shining light into a new paradigm!
Congrats Neil! Hell of an accomplishment!
Half an hour in, Kipp has been wittering on and Hillman has made every expression under the sun but only said 'hi'
Congrats homie!
What a wonderfull episode, because of what Ammon did, i think how Dr.Kipp responded was very ubersensitive.
WHICH ONE CAME BEFORE THE OTHER is an *intriguing* question.
I am working on it with the Spreadsheet. Man, it wasn't easy but definitely its a Good Pointer
Congratulations on your silver badge.
Exactly. It is documenting history.
The only truth is on the other side of the Dark Star. You can read a book about the ocean, but you'll never get a single drop.
1:20:41 Part of the reason the Greeks reached such great heights, was because they learnt from everyone around them, and beyond. What’s more, they were constantly reflecting on how they could do better, be better, with everything they learnt. I see the Greeks learning from others around them….I’m not so sure the ancient Hebrew people would do the same. In fact they could have been more closed off, and not open to learning from others.
Congratulations Neal on reaching 100k, definitely well deserved. And I'm sorry this conversation ended up this way, I'm sure this is not what you wanted. People need to stop making things personal in debates.
So, the idea that the Pentateuch wasn't written until the time of the Septuagint, isn't that all of the stories contained were composed at that time. The idea is that these Hebrew stories were not put together in the form that we have it until the production of the Septuagint. So what we would expect, is evidence of Hebrew composition in some of the stories. In other spots we should expect to see evidence of Greek composition. We should expect to see these very close together in the text. The Septuagint was always said to be a compilation of the Hebrew scriptures.
The question isn't of whether much of the material came from earlier Hebrew sources, the question is if the books in question had existed beforehand. Clearly, some of the books in the Septuigant were composed much earlier. (Job, Koleheth)
When were the books that follow a cohesive Abraham-Moses-Joshua-Saul-David-et cetera narrative composed? What did their antecedents look like?
NICE!!! Congrats!!!
In the context of ancient Near Eastern religions, "Ammon" (or "Ammonites") refers to the people who lived in the ancient kingdom of Ammon, located in present-day Jordan. The chief deity of the Ammonites was Milcom (also known as Molech), and this deity was often associated with child sacrifice in biblical texts.
In Egyptian mythology, "Amun" (also spelled "Ammon") was a major deity, originally a local god of Thebes who rose to prominence and became a national god of Egypt. Amun was often associated with Ra, the sun god, and combined as Amun-Ra.
So, the name "Ammon" can have different religious connotations depending on the cultural and historical context.
i can't stand it when people say, "the original Hebrew", there was no original hebrew. Dr. Ammons ideas should be mainstream
Ammon always brings it ... I've learned not to waste time or put up with BS . axios axios axios
Hillman is a polemicist, but he is interestingly unorthodox and brings attention to hugely overlooked aspects of classicism. Davis has a much more orthodox approach. The academic world generally supports Davis, but Hillman's ideas are great fodder for new thinking and reconsideration of traditional/mainstream ideas. Hillman is fearless and ferocious. His passion--or demonic possession, I should say--for the subject is contagious, and he's done the challenging work of learning ancient Greek. Kudos to all of these men for bringing light to these texts, including Davis.
No one explains it with pure 100% confidence ever the way that Dr.Hillman does and gives to his work. With only knowing what I know and see that kind of liquid perception and confidence totally crystalised in historical art and writing is what give the game away. He knows his shit! Like lebron James or what we his name is, just oozes “I know my shit”
You gotta be careful with that man. There’s a lot of charismatic speakers out there who speak with utmost confidence and flow, but are total bullshitters.
@@willmosse3684 I can hear the difference. For instance he loves Jesus of Jesus was performing the mystery. France held up a young girl to be their leader in the revolution.
The satanic ritual abuse is what ammon is exposing. Look up Fiona Barnett she describes identical rituals of real black mass, mass death of children. All of it.
Ammon is saying the quiet part out loins
@@willmosse3684 I’m fine due to the fact I cringe at a lot of Otago Ed religion. The middle path is very secluded but keeps my head on a swivel
Well, that didn’t go well.
Omg! One hour and six minutes into this, and Kipp is lost...Ammon is on point... wow... just wow.
This is that controversial debate. I enjoy Gnostic Informant and Myth vision. Thank you for bringing in those great scholars
Ive seen Ammon before and enjoyed his enthusiasm....but this? I dont like how this went at all. That wasnt right
I agree with you 💯
Yeah. He was out of order here
Don't tell his cult members that. apparently, accoreding to them, and despite my own eyes and ears, Dr. Kipp was all kinds of rude. Which he wasn't. Dr. Kip , Derrick and Neal are friends and guys talk to each other like, "shut up" and "listen ". Then Amon ,tripping on balls starts talking crazy to Kipp. WTF? Killed everything.
"My Greek sucks" well I guess that's all ya need to hear
Dr Kill couldn’t stand the Heat in the Kitchen 😉💀🌹
So where are all the other Greek scholars saying this must be an original Greek composition, and couldn’t possibly be a translation from Hebrew? Ammon’s claim was broadly based on the idea that even a graduate student in Ancient Greek would immediately identify this text as composed in Hellenistic Greek. It’s not like Ammon is the only Greek speaker who reads the classics, so where are the others?
Sextus Julius Africanus
@@Eudaemoniac He named one ancient source who said this. Was that him? But are there any other modern scholars saying this?
@@willmosse3684quite a few actually, they just aren’t talked about much in the mainstream, Carl Ruck and John Scarborough for instance.
@@cat_and_cabbage4662 Are you sure? I’ve googled them all. Ruck and Scarborough have both written a lot about drug use in ancient cultic religion, including Christianity. But I can’t see anything about either of them saying the Old Testament was composed in Greek. And I can’t see anything really even related from Kerr.
Neil, you should apologize to Ammon for trying to call him down for defending you and Derek, and getring fed up with his sanctimonious scoffing and interrupting with a face where he was not willing to hear out logical information.
Never let your opinions become who you are, because if you do, you will see anything different from your views, an offensive of who you are-we are all wrong. We should learn and be grateful for the knowledge
He's just trying to keep the peace. What happened, happened. Besides, Ammon didn't require an apology.
People say Ammon was being a "dick" yet Dr Kipp interrupted him ever since he started talking. Then after his retreat, spewing hateful trash in the live chat. What a child. Besides, was Dr Kipp drinking? Was he loaded?
Absolutely. The number of times Ammon got interrupted was ridiculous. And, of course, he was utterly prepared.
Kipp Davis is good but even at my remedial level know he runs in circles at times Ammon was straight to the point & gave demonstrations regarding his argument
Yeah, but Ammon was coming to this on an argument he has constructed and written on for years. Kipp was responding on the fly the first time hearing the arguments. So you can’t compare them equally on this topic based on this discussion. If there was a subject that Kipp has written and book on and Ammon was responding to the first time hearing it, it would look the other way around.
@@willmosse3684 oh come on, he knew he was going to talk about the original language of the text. That was the whole point. He could have just said 'Since im not an expert on classical Greek, i will decline the invitation.' Instead he shows up unprepared to even make his own case coherently. Then being rude to everyone. Then run away with push-back....
@@jessyhart6638 Kipp knew Ammon was arguing that the Old Testament was composed in Greek and translated to Hebrew. But he didn’t know all the arguments/claims Ammon was going to make. He was definitely reacting on the fly. I agree that that meant he didn’t present his case very well, so maybe he should have declined to join the show without having done more prep. But not because “he doesn’t speak Greek”. He does speak Greek, just not as well as Ammon, and he hasn’t read the classics, because he was trained on Biblical literature and commentary. But he understands the grammatical structure of the language, and is then able to compare that to ancient Hebrew, and analyse the relationship between them in the text. Something that Ammon cannot do because he speaks NO ancient Hebrew whatsoever. If anyone should decline to speak on composition and translation because they don’t speak the relevant languages, it’s Ammon. If you want to see Kipp explain the arguments he was trying to make off the cuff in a more prepared manner, check out his video from a couple of days ago, where he goes over that original confrontation step by step. He is also joined by Septuagint scholar and expert in Ancient Greek, including all the sources Ammon references, Dr Joel Korytko. Joel is an expert in this very question of composition and translation of the Septuagint, and speaks all the languages required to do such a task competently. He also very clearly presents a bunch of other evidence. It’s basically an open and shut case. It’s a Hebrew composition translated into Hellenistic Greek.
Revisiting this some 9 months later , Ammon has been proven correct…the irony …now what
I'm just watching this for the first time today. Which argument is proven correct and why?
Proven correct how? I don’t think he has…
@@broosevain8282that the old testament is greek originally, not a translation. That kinda crumbles down Monism (christian/judaism/islam)
@@FamilyTreeRG That's his claim, but it isn't "proven" now any more than when the claim was made. It's a very interesting argument, and has deep implications.
@@broosevain8282 but didnt you see the ancient sources? I havent finished this video but on his yt channel he had shown so many evidence its kinda undeniable
This makes me think Jewish sources, schooled in Greek (potentially very inspired in "mysteries" of hebrew syncretized mysticism) coupled with Greek scholars to compose a scriptural history borrowing from the language of their ancient roots and leaving their anachronistic greek schooling in the text. Sounds very book of Mormonism. The BOM using king james english overlaid upon a cultural history (mound builder myths and bible) to compose a sacred history leaving anachronistic 19tn century anachronisms in the text (and potentially this being a standard in the making of religion). This does not , contrary to many, discount divine origin of either. Academics need not discount inspiration except if one insists everything is "literal". Something similar could be happening with the NT. What if certain "elite" do this more often than we think. What the question is...are these "elite" "prophets" or is this a natural result of certain giften humans (who are also prophets?) or ..all a bunch of hogwash. Sure is a complex artistry of hogwash if so...even, miraculous to those with an eye for art or genius or both. I sincerely doubt a pile of hogwash would be so interesting. lol
Neal: No, it was not a stale mate. Kip is uninformed and it showed.
This is GOLD!!!!! My take is Older ideas and some stories taken and gathered up, then expanded into much larger stories and stitched together by greeks to form something much greater. children stories or Bedouin fantasies expanded and blended to take all the conflicting stories by waring tribe of thought and make them come together under one umbrella. The people of the region were not then and not now a unified people. so in about 270BC they brought all the competing ideas and stitched them together. all the competing SCROLLS of my god can beat up your god or my football teams mascot can beat up your teams mascot. so its first assembly into one is done in Greek. a bible taking all these scrolls and compressing to one supposed unified book.
think of it like this. Some group had A founding story of a guy like Abraham.... another had a moses like character, another had a Jacob... and in an attempt to unify, they made them into a linear interrelated story that really makes no sense. poorly done and why we debate it to this day. and as these campfire stories were told back then and people questioned the authenticity they added on the spot the apologetic... the proofs... books of the bible do that they get added to with explanations to explain away the plot holes. and it still happens to this day.
LOL at nearly coming to blows over fiction... but star wars fans do the same thing. and dont get me started on Lord of the rings fans. fiction should be fun... more like Monty python fans vs Mel Brooks fans
BTW I like Dr Kipp a lot. but I agree with what Dr Hillman did. Kipp telling Derek and Neal to SHUT UP was fvc#ing rude as hell, and after remaining silent and polite he finally had enough and treated Kipp exactly as he treated others. Someone seemed to be having a bad day.
Dr Davis brought a butter knife to Dr Hillmans Canon fight 🤣 poor guy had no idea what he was in for. Talking face to face vs text battles in the comments is a way different experience.
Wow, one man amoung 😮 boys
Yep i have that book in pdf only have to get my hands on a hardcopy
Bro broke out the microphone 🎤 😂
When an organization grows big enough, it fractures. Hehe.
I was thinking the same thing. It's why I like the smaller channels.
@@riley02192012 Blaze n fade out. Just like Jesus.
48:30
Let me check that
I wish you would have before you came to this
AHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAH
tell him your language is superior without telling him your language is superior ,lmao
Too bad Kip had to leave. Let me say this, pure idiomatic wording from language H (wording that makes sense in that language) can be incorporated in a text that has it constructive roots in language S. And that's the banana peel that slipped up Kip. It is interesting to dive in more. Hellenised as Jews as may have been... I believe they had love for their language and the traditions that came with it. So, every now and then putting things in that rhyme (in every sense of the meaning of the word) in that queer older tongue, yeah that works! It's educative!
I'm sorry but both docs were taking shots across the bow, Kipp was doing it a lot more subtly than Ammon but it went both ways and after awhile I had a strong feeling that it was going to end this way, but if you're going to engage in such a conversation you SHOULD be prepared with no excuses especially if you're going to make snide remarks you had better have the ammo to back up the attitude and Ammon came prepared although I feel he should have had more examples to substantiate some of the comments he made and fell way short in that regard on a couple of occasions. Kipp wasn't in anyway prepared to engage someone like Ammon, he knew what he was walking into and showed up with no kit whatsoever 🤷♂
Firstly, Thank You for organising this interview. With all Due Respect, I am very confused. There was supposed to be a "presentation" from Dr. Hillman which was continually broken. I watched and rewatched this interview. The method of mediation is unfortunately the reason everything broke down. Tensions slowly rise because of incomplete thoughts. Hillman was onto something that had my full Attention (right or wrong is immaterial). There were organised slides and the presentation was engaging, but then there were a series of interruptions (on-topic or not does not matter). A case was being built *after* the first case was presented AND that presenter asked to hear the next presentation. I Respect you guys for what you do, but as a rule, the more voices in the room (and esp the more controversial the subject), the more caution should be employed with organisation and mediation. Highly unfortunate turn of events, but interesting discussion regardless.
Damn these guys don't get it. The example Ammon is using is a word with so much specificity it would be like translating the word Man to the name Jack London. Like, why the fk would you chose such a specific word/name when plenty more would better fit the Hebrew. So then the Hebrew takes Jack London and translates it into jack, like a car jack, followed by London, like the city of London, and carries none of the original meaning while also revealing the translation error. Also, if by some chance the 'translator' of the septuigent took the 'original hebrew' fear of god and realized that the two words coincidentally could make the greek Theosebeas(sp?)and then conspired to weaved a cult theme into the Septuigent using Hebrew word pairs that coincidentally matched up to greek words while simultaneously also having the same specific cult context?!? I doubt even AI could do that. So then, either the septuigent is the original or it was created by the greatest genius to ever live with a subversive goal.
Also must be said, turning on Ammon as the belligerent is off. Kip told both hosts to be quiet rudely and Ammon only gave him what he was already giving out. It seems the hosts turned on Ammon only because they felt more comfortable with him regardless of the facts. Neal not being the righteous homeboy here but this was a long time ago, so...
He said 'Shut up' to each of them, not 'Be quiet'. Then told Ammon to 'Listen!' Aside from that i agree with what you said.
It would be interesting to come up with a timeline for all these cases. And put up the names of the writers and get an idea of what their lives, their world was like. So, the bible starts... in the 6th century BCE! And the writers are people from a priestly and political elite. The forerunners of the Saducees. There the story starts. And... these people are devoted to... reconstructing their roots, their culture. But... they live in another world.
“Shut up Neal!” 🤣
In 600 b.c.e. there was a Judean settlement on Elephantine island, at the south border of Egypt, with a temple for Yahoo. There are some documents about the politics. The temple was destroyed and they wanted to rebuild. The Egyptian governor played them by putting the decision for rebuilding in the hands of Hebrew headquarters in the Levant. Stalling it. The more fundamentalist, monotheistic regime would decide against the wishy washy polytheistic outpost. There was certainly an active culture, way back, doing what we expect them to do.
Greek mercenaries were fighting in Kush 200 years before that. That's also deep in the south.
In general we are looking at a diverging and converging of resonating story telling, in time. I imagine a Plato hitting some nail on the head. An expansion of or angle on the paradigm under which these traditions grasp themselves. These active traditions say: also Plato. I say: also quite Egyptian.
When I was going through 20th century philosophers I liked to guess, after global impression, what their relation to Nietzsche was. A filter, an angle. It was a fun game and I was pretty good at it. I like Nietzsche readers. I can smell them. I take that philosopher's hammer and hit it against their skulls: sound like one.
Those people back then were freaks like me.
Ammon just smashing this one, idk. Every comment he gives is just lightning strike, while being calm and fine.
That how’s your Hebrew fixation is the breaking point in Kips inability to cross disciplines and look at the big picture as a whole.
Hahahahha ol boys minds blown and just cant deal
Yikes i was embarrassed for kipp. Lmfao hard to listen to that guy. I know a guy that tells people to shut up and listen when he talks to people. Very cringe when they prveed to talk over people.
1:06:30 The Septuagint was created by hellenised Hebrew people, Hebrew scholars, and Greek scholars, all working together in Alexandra in Egypt. Naturally the end product will be influenced in its expression, by the Greek of the time, as it’s purpose was to have practical use for the hellenised Hebrew people who where speaking Greek at that time.
Yall think Ammon is on something LOL. Tell me how you instruct intensive Greek language class, make killer videos, and meet 1 on 1 with serious paying students on the regular while on drugs.
He def is moving an awful lot 😂
Yeah, and they never say what drugs he is on. They just throw out "drugs," as if it were one homogeneous group. So they obviously dont know what they're talking about. Probably trying to slander the professor because the uave an agenda.
You can’t pour a Galen into a hebrew teaspoon.
Brilliant
Interesting ammon could have been nicer but authenticity is of value aswell.
The only thing I need to know is if another expert in the ancient Greek language will verify what Ammon is saying. That is the clincher.
Carl Ruck has corroborated and supports what Dr. Ammon is teaching.
I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but I did find a thing that seems to support the LXX-first theory. In exodus 4:24-26 when YHVH was about to kill Moses at the inn, Zipporah circumcised their son and said: "the blood of the circumcision is staunched" meaning the bleeding stopped; essentially saying that the deed is done and no further complications. In translations from the masoretic text she touches Moses' feet with the foreskin and says: "you are a bridegroom of blood (?) to me" the LXX, YHVH is appeased by the circumcision being completed and spares Moses, but the masoretic implies a blood magic ritual casting a protective spell that wards off YHVH. If translated from LXX to Hebrew it looks as if the translator didn't know the Greek word for "staunched" and translated without finding out; so he read it as: YHVH is about to kill Moses, then Zipporah circumcises their son and then...something about Moses' feet and...blood of the circumcision...and YHVH spares Moses and leaves. Thus transforming the passage from a coherent narrative about circumcision being important to an incoherent story about Zipporah making a blood offering to Moses' feet (!?), a practice nowhere else further attested or explained.
Translations often smooth over textual difficulties.
The further we go back we see "hebrew" basically identical to phoneician and aramaic. Idk, the conclusion i come to, is biblical hebrew seems to be a creation by the greeks in the library of alexandria.
It keeps being said over and over, similarity between surrounding cultures and that there is adaptation by picking up what is liked best from other cultures in the same time frame. Just take that one step further and then see that major cultures that had influence over many territories also are factors of influence and are also borrowed from. You can track the cultural influence from what is written and even art work that survives. Hebrew is irrelevant to tracing culture in languages over time at any point before Hebrew enters the scene of languages. So if tracing history you go to the oldest forms of language and study from that point into modernity.
I think all of you are ignoring Babylon. The elites learned all of the Sumerian/Akkadian tales and clearly wrote a proto version of the Torah with this literature as the backdrop. Did it get a Greek overwrite? Of course.
It’s not one or the other, it’s evolution of ideas of culture being adapted to suit groups of people as they needed it and often it’s cherry picked for political reasons, the things that benefit the people of influence and power.
It’s the place in time , the cultures that were dominant and how people interacted through time from cross culture interaction from trade. So Hebrew fits in one particular point of time much later. The real deal is the adaptation of ideas from cultures earlier and that you can map languages and spread of thought from language. Kips just out of the time context.
Honesty Neal Honesty all my life
No offense because I adore Kipp and see him as extremely intelligent but I think he set the presidence when he told people to shut up several times.
All I know is that the times and history have ben irrevocably altered so its very hard to piece anything back together in true form. Not impossible, just two to three times harder than it should be given chance.
Somehow someway all this history that so many think is so ancient, even Demetrius and even Plato is likely from the very beginning or just prior to the last millennium. Then the rest, including some supernatural events, that marked the beginning of it, dates are fuzzy, but including christ and those prophecies, started what we understand today. I think names, dates, and even minor details were changed or rewritten to hide those simple undeniable facts because they were that outlandish...think more Game of Thrones, rather than actual what you understand as history. Why else would such stories carry such heavy weight, because they include deep genetic memories people can''t just forget.
Any help piecing back any of this together would be marvelous.
Hundreds, if not 1,000s, of LXX scholars who are classicists, would not agree with this lone scholar with the wildest ideas about etymology, translation, source criticism, etc. …. unbelievable!!
I've got to say Ammon is absolutely hilarious (surely a Richard Carrier of the Old Testament). He has interesting perspectives but the preponderance of evidence has to be with Kipp.
@nathannavarrete7481 on the key points that mattered I think he was though there is more he could have adduced.
If someone claims your full of it then leaving without proving them wrong basically proves them right.. how unfortunate...
While I like Ammon's enthusiasm, I can't help but wonder if he's in some sort of drug withdrawl or if he's suffering from parkinsons or something.
seems more like 8 red bulls
He’s filled with the power of the text ! Also I’d say Ammon came prepared to debate out of academic respect it’s a-shame the other guy did not . Perhaps it was not explained to him .
No he's not on drugs. Just a wild mentor that you meet out there in the aether.
He raised enough red flags I'd be sending him out for testing if he worked for me 😂