Resonator Guitar Intonation - A Guide For Nationals, Dobros and Others!
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- Here we look at resonator guitar intonation and how the standard saddle works and how compensated saddles can be used.
We use National guitars to demonstrate good resonator setup and show various hints and tricks, explain Steve Evans at Beltona Instruments input as well as discus the compensated NRP resolution biscuit bridge system.
Annoyingly a few hours after publishing this video NRP released a new product which is essentially a pre made bridge that is compensated.
Rather than reshoot I’ve added this note and am sure the internet will tell you all options as the years roll on!
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Boring? Not when learning the nuances of everything resonator-related!
Thank you; I learned a lot. 👍
Bored me making it but it’s something that keeps coming up and no one had made a concise video on it. Hope it’s of use!! 🎵
Learning intonation "good enough" was learned on banjo for me. There's only so long you want to spend adjusting a bridge before you really just want to play.
Essentially that’s it. Any fretted instrument is essentially ‘out’ so you may as well get them set up as good as poss and get in with it.
Back when I was first learning guitar in the late 60's we used to tune to the UK phone system engaged tone. Dial your own number and you got a sort of G-ish tone. And a Snark was something Lewis Carroll hunted. (Spoiler - it was actually a Boojum.)
It's so easy now and I love my clip on tuners. And instead of just an approximate G I have a chap on my phone exploring the subtleties of tuning and intonation. Ain't life great!
It definitely flipped around at some point!! That’s an interesting thing about the dialled tone. I can hear it now!!
At last, a video describing the intonation problem and the correct way to solve it... Many ppl still compare the open string sound and the 12th fret harmonic, as we know it's not the good way... You could insist more on the fact that, the thicker the strings (and the higher the action! ), the deeper will be your concern! (especially when you mix slide and fretted notes). Great video, again, Sir...
It’s a flawed idea talking about getting fretted instruments truly in tune anyway but so many people ask the question.
The essence of this video is that a good set up will get you close enough and if you’re any good you’ll make it work.
It’s usually hobby players that worry more about resonator intonation than the seasoned longtime pro.
The harmonic thing has always baffled me when setting intonation. Glad you picked up on it!
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Loved this video. While a dry subject, I was concerned with the intonation on my Regal RC-02. In fact, when I bought it, I didn't know what intonation was, and this started a long internet search (as you alluded to in your video). I also think that intonation is a bit of a rabbit hole that one can go down and lose sight of the what is "good enough" for many of us who are beginners or not professional/performing musicians. That said, it was really helpful hearing your review and explanations of problems and solutions. Thank you for your videos that I very much enjoy watching. Cheers from Ottawa, Canada.
Thanks for the kind words! An endlessly complex subject indeed and if we’re being honest then fretted instruments technically are never perfect. Two main things; a set up by a competent luthier and working with what you get should be enough to get by and make great music. All the best!!
Love your vids. This was a great one
Hey! Thanks!!
Learned a lot...thanks
Thanks!! It’s a dry but necessary subject!
Thank you so much for these ideas.
For it helped putting on bigger strings Gauges. I changed from 11 to 13/ or 46 to 56 on the low E. Changing the angel of the bridge didn't do anything actually, even when I twisted it extremely.
But with thiker strings the sound got so much better.
Thank you for the advice.
Factory spec in the 30s was around 12-53. On new NRP guitars it’s 13-56. Knowing that should help!
@@TheWashboardResonators Thank you fot the spec. I definitely have a new one. It is from “Alden”, which I have never heard of before. I bought it used on ebay.
Unfortunately I destroyed the nut, because the slot for the string was too narrow. I think I can easily replace it and it still works anyway.
Martyn, that Triolian sounds wonderful, or at least you make it sound wonderful! In terms of intonation, I like to get it as close as I can, but for me good enough is good enough.
That’s it. It’s about making it work!
Today I saw a photo of traditional style biscuit and bridge from NRP with compensated cuts to the bridge, look like the normal old one, looks nicer than the those new wobbly ones.
I can’t believe that today they’ve released a new compensated product!
@@TheWashboardResonators www.nationalguitars.com/product-page/compensated-biscuit-bridge-saddle-and-base-kit
Good stuff. I use to worry how thin the piece of maple is that is the bridge. I have found out maple is the original wood used for the bridges in the vintage and modern National. You can try ebony, rosewood, for your tonal preference. I use a maple bridge and ebony nut. It rounds the tone I think. Thanks for the download. Shine on.
I’ve heard different things on the different woods. It’s good that others like yourselves have experimented!
Can you make a video showing how to adjust the string action on a resonator. I just bought my first one and the string action in a little high and I was wondering how to lower them. Please and thank you🙏🏼🙌🏽
I take mine to a luthier that specialises in them. It’s that simple I’m afraid.
Great stuff as always Martyn. Thanks for sharing. Do you think you could make a video on resonator guitar action please?
Hey!! We cover this in beginner slide videos but TBH it’s simple and just a case of knowing what a typical finger style set up is and aiming for that or a shade higher if playing slide or both hybrid. With experience you’ll adjust it to taste.
@@TheWashboardResonators Thanks for the reply Martyn. Yes I hear you. I've really enjoyed watching your videos you give honest inciteful information spoken in plain English. Thank you so much. It's great hearing it from a Brit rather than a Yank lol. But seriously I'm looking for that hybrid style so I can fingerpick and play slide. So you recommend rather than have a really low action for finger picking I have it slightly higher so I can play decent slide. Around what mm at the 12th fret and should the bottom E by higher than the top E (and in order etc). I'm just at the beginning of my resonator journey but I've managed to play a couple of gigs with it and I'm really enjoyin. I have D60 spider cone dobro 98 (I assume 98 is the year it was built?). I don't think it's a real Dobro I think it's Eastern. Do you know anything bout these? Some put a dobro sticker on it which came off that's why I think it's a fake. The biggest problem I've had with it is the intonation. I watched your video on Intonation - good stuff. The problem with mine is it's always sharp on the 12 fret. Is there an tips you can offer me to get the intonation in better tune? Sorry to pick your brains but I would appreciate any advice. I wish you the best and hope to catch up with your band further down the line. Best regards
Great stuff: bit anxious when bying a second hand resonator(biscuit bridge) if the tuning stability will be controlable for me. This shows the nuance and as I understand the position of the biscuit will have a huge effect. Now I read stories about these biscuits kinda floating inside the cone not always being inline with the middle and stuff. Would you say one should be able to fix this by themselves or is any adjustment that’s needed meaning you go straight to a luthier?
All guitars should be fairly okay so long as you manage expectations and have a go yourself at setting intonation. Just move the cone until both E strings are in tune at fret 12. If not possible by you then they should be fixable. If a competent luthier can’t do it but the guitar in the bin!
Excellent discussion and very informative. What is the method of work to move a biscuit bridge slightly fore or aft? Every string is sharp 10-12 cents; Recording King Nickel Style-0 Resonator w/ Roundhole Cone
You can move the whole cone within the well back towards the tailpiece. Twist it so the bridge is slightly further back on the bass side and restring and check. Could be that if you don’t have the adjustment left you’ll need someone to make a new biscuit and route a slot for the bridge further back.
@@TheWashboardResonators thank you for the information ! A resonator guy told me this is why you don’t take all the strings off a resonator at once.
Love your videos, they are super helpful for me as a relative beginner. I’m looking for a recommendation for string action. I have a Regal RC-02 nickel plated brass bodied guitar and the 12th fret action is about 3.25mm, quite high for fingerpicking. So as I play in both slide and fingerpicking styles, I need a recommendation for when I take my guitar to my local luthier. I was thinking of perhaps 2mm at the 12th fret. What do you think? What are the 1st and 12th fret nights on your tricone (that I think you mentioned you use for slide and fingerpicking)? Cheers fro Ottawa.
TBH a set height wouldn’t help as it depends on playing style and heaviness of attack as well as string gauge.
My luthier watches me play with the same finger picks and slides etc and advises what’s possible given the neck angle and saddle placement.
For mixed styles I’d say 15s and a medium action is good to get a good half way house between playing comfort and rattle free sliding.
On my Tricone set up for slide I use 16s and my luthier has it relatively low until fret 7 then it gets higher.
On other gigs or rehearsals when I take one guitar I just play slide on my standard tuned guitar with 13s and a lower action and it’s perfectly fine. Probably 90% the equivalent of what I play compared to the specific slide guitar. I usually just get a little fret rattle on faster passages. The point here is that with time I’ve found that to be acceptable and I got used to using that guitar and set up and it’s perfectly good enough for live music or practice.
On record I’d use the specific slide guitar without doubt to get the beefier sound and slightly less rattle.
Use your time to practice and see what works on the setup you’ve got and you’ll find after a few tweaks with your luthier over a few months you’ll arrive at your ideal.
I had a luthier set up my Martin acoustic years ago and he did something special. With the truss rod setting the neck almost flat he progressively filed each fret to add the relief. The net effect was the action is ridiculously low near the nut and it never buzzes and the intonation is the best of any fretted guitar I’ve ever played.
Might be an idea here if you’re looking for narrow tolerances.
All the best!!!
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@@TheWashboardResonators Thanks for this. I learn something every time I read your comments. My strings are D’Adorio EJ 16. I don’t use finger picks (at least not yet). So I don’t think I have an aggressive attack. Played a bit with my wife’s acoustic with really low action (1.25 mm) and as long as I was careful there was no fret or string noise. I know my luthier is going to ask me what I want so I’m going to have to tell him something. I’m playing in Open G for now. The f-shape at the 10th fret for a D chord is currently tough given the 3.25mm hight at the 12th, and Barr chords a a huge challenge so these are the things pushing me to ask for lower action, while avoiding string buzz. I also need to have the truss rod adjusted as there is a slight bow in the next. The idea of a flat neck and filing down the frets isn’t something I thought of, it it’s an interesting idea.
Hi, Excellent as always. Do you have a reference for the compensated biscuit in the photo at the start of the video?
I don’t I’m afraid. This video is mostly reassurance for those that haven’t bought a resonator but also shows the commercially available products as inspiration. The early metal biscuit product has a website on the product. Can’t remember the maker now.
@@TheWashboardResonators No worries. I'm contemplating re-stringing one of my Nationals to baritone tuning and I think intonation will be an issue , the one in the pic looked perfect 😊
the action is really high on my gretsch honey dipper and i wonder how you would lower it? Would you sand the bridge saddle and/or cut the slots deeper or is there another option? How much will string guage also make a difference and with size 16`s or 18`s surely the tension will affect the neck? Great lessons and lots of very useful tips and love your playing and knowledge. Many thanks for the info.
It’s a complex mixture. Probably a pro job if you’re looking for a great playing action.
Especially with thick strings. No telling if the neck is set right too.
I’d start with the bridge definitely. The strings will pull the neck back definitely too. I’d want all slots opening out for bigger strings.
Hopefully this helps to start!
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@@TheWashboardResonators I shall start there and have bought 2 extra bridges so if I go too far I have 2 more chances 😆 I have set up many electric guitars and much easier than a biscuit bridge but guess the action is not such an issue. I might regret saying that 😀😃
more info on the tri cone and maybe show how to set it up
Complex beasts. I find letting professionals sort them helps lots!
I use a peterson clip-on tuner so I am at a distinct disadvantage in finding good intonation on a reso guitar than those using a snark. It is a love hate deal for me playing a reso and finding good intonation up the neck
Yep. It’s the age old ‘what’s good enough’ debate! I love the idea of using a Peterson on a resonator! It’s like using fine china plates and solid silver forks to eat a McDonalds! 🤘🏻
Hello, any tips on string height for slide/picking on the same guitar .
This video covers that really when I play the Tricone. It’s a feel thing depending on how hard you play as to what’s possible with an expert setting it up from seeing you actually play. In England something like 3-4mm height with bigger strings like 15s and good technique should allow hybrid playing for the vast majority of people.
@@TheWashboardResonators many thanks
One question which I’d like to ask is how have you attached a guitar strap to your National?
There is a video about National straps. Look down our videos and you’ll find it!
like button ded
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talk talk and say nothing
Ha ha ha ha…
So what I got out of this twenty something minute video is basically bring it to an expert. Not very helpful.
This video takes a complex subject that many guitarists struggle with and for free offers;
🎯 multiple options of all proprietary products,
🎯 discusses and demonstrates the nature of intonation on classic resonator bridges,
🎯 offers solutions to the various issues so players can learn what is out there and choose what works best for them and their needs.
🎯 shares the results of a good setup by a skilled professional and suggests you do the same (as if that really needs mentioning),
And you boil down from all that something you find ‘not very helpful?’
Take up stamp collecting or counting pebbles you absolute numpty because this guitar stuff is not for you.
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Too much mouth for me.. see ya
Ohhh nooo! Calvin doesn’t like autistic people giving loads of info. Oh well, me and the other 17,369 people on the channel will have to live without his support. Waaahhh!!