Ice Cold in Alex - was it real?
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- #icecoldinalex #sand #austin
The old British war movie Ice Cold in Alex has a scene where they recover an Austin K2/Y up a hill...using an unusual method. Was it real, or not? A reader asked, and I was intrigued enough to investigate!
Post questions as comments!
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The plot is a couple of Brits in search of lager. 🇬🇧
Robert, I am an engineer and I am always amazed by your different analyses on various subjects. Excellent viewing.
Cheers
thanks, means a lot!
The ice cold in alex film is great, but the book is ten times better and makes more sense. Love em both
Fascinating analysis Robert Pepper, I came across this while searching for the movie itself. They should have had you in the movie as the fifth character; you could have been standing there next to the bogged down ambulance, in your bedraggled desert uniform, explaining all this to the other four while the hot sun beat down relentlessly, at which point they'd all have thrown up their hands and said, "Ah forget it mate, let's walk..." You would have been the equivalent of the Hardy Kruger character in the original 'The Flight of the Phoenix'; now there's an in-depth analysis waiting. I hope you might do another one like this, thanks for going to all the effort!
That's great! I would have just gone straight to the solution at the end and I would have been believed because that crank is too hard to turn!
Robert, quite simply a Olympian Gold, "A" genius for Britain. Wonderful insight to engineering. THE determined difference to be a champion. Cheers.
Just brilliant analysis of the situation. Very interesting.
That was really good to see you approaching this in a nice methodical way, thank you.
I have been in this situation and used it with my 1977 SWB Land Rover petrol. I was on my way to a friends with 2 others at night and I took a short cut. the way had been logged recently and the ground was a foot deep with mud under foot, and 30 degrees. Not knowing this I got stuck and so firstly dug her out. Then using the starting handle in low range and reverse we got her over 100m back up the hill to firmer ground. I was on 600 16 and I could not remove the plugs it was about an hour and a half and was hard going. It still has to be one of the best self recovery efforts I've seen. I count myself as a very capable off-road driver for the UK conditions and can not have seen another way to get out.
Since then I have used it on ice up a 1:4 hill and in snow but not as far, and when the engine cuts out at really great angles when the float is sunk in the carb. It is a great tool for the off road kit.
I have also driven a K2 ambulance and say it is possible but not fun. They also tend to be on 900 16 tyres in the UK but the film might be different.
Wow thanks! Loved to read that!!!
As a Land Rover owner (as I am as well) if you watch the film and keep your eyes open you will see a Series 1 Land Rover parked up a side street. Of course the Land Rover did not exist until 1948. A military Jeep would have been possible.
Yes I saw that 😥😥😥
Pity can't be done on modern vehicle s! Thanks for the post very informative 👍
About waiting for night. I once got stuck in mud in a 2WD pickup, spent the night in the seat, and was able to drive out in the morning. The mud was firmer in the morning.
Good point- I guess it is really waiting for the weather to change the terrain to your advantage!
“It’s a long shot but it could work”
Or, and stay with me now, we could air the tires down, take all the weight out, and try again at night. Lol.
Yeah but shooting day for night looks shite! 🤣
Don't forget, Anson was desperate to get to the Bar at opening time !
My admiration for you is now approaching epic proportions Robert. I am blown away by your effort on this one. Can't wait for your review on the Batmobile or the Iron Man workshop. Keep up this outstanding work!
Thanks, I could do Fast and Furious but I would be there till the end of time...
Great analysis, My favourite movie . Poetic licence to show the desperate situation, and a way to overcome it . I think the clutch would have slipped . Further note . They had two vehicles for the movie. The ward Clifford ambulance body was mounted on two versions , one a Dodge four wheel drive chassis and the other the rear wheel drive K series ( over 30,000 made during the war) . In the movie they used both . You can see the front differential in a couple of the deep desert long shots . Great movie ………
Thanks George, good to know!
If you look at the axles, the Ambulance used for most of the film was a 2WD -- All amateurs
the movie vehicle type and weight info is redundant...the actual chassis used throughout the movie in the desert sequence was a heavier Canadian Military pattern 4x4 truck chassis with an austin K2 4x2 ambulance cab and rear body grafted on to it by the props department so it could cope with the desert conditions where the normal 4x2 would get bogged down...the only genuine unmodified Austin K2 4x2 appears in a night scene.
Oh....have to re do all the calcs!!!
@@L2SFBC in the movie they are trying to wind it uphill in four wheel drive!! whereas the original unmodified vehicle would have had drive only to the rear wheels.
Weren't there 4wd versions?
@@L2SFBC NO
The book of the same title this movie was made from is a really good read. The author drove an ambulance for the British army in North Africa during WW2.
If you explained Trigonometry in Metric to the British Soldiers during WW2 too could be an emisary of foe ?
My dad was in the Army during the War, and he said that it was part of the regular training programme for ALL troops to learn how to reverse-wind a vehicle out of a ditch... Possibly in the film , they were "stretching the point" to reverse-wind the Katy for 100 yards up a sandy slope... But an amazing scene, when you see it for the first time... In my opinion, this was one of John Mills' better films out of the 52 that he starred in..
Thanks loved to read that 👍
@@L2SFBC When our family sat and watched the film for the first time, Dad had a smile on his face, and said that, once the plugs were removed, there was no resistance, and, once the hand crank started turning, the gears almost rolled around easily... He said that even a child could turn the handle, and move a vehicle for a few yards ( obviously supervised by an adult ) ... He also said that, in the film, the men were shown struggling to turn the handle, very slowly... but, when he and his pals did it, it was NOT hard work to do.. He said that a person could easily turn it, with ONE HAND... and - No, they were not superman, just ordinary squaddies... Hope this helps to clarify it.....
It does thanks! I wish I could try it myself.
@@L2SFBC If you know someone who has a very, very old vehicle, why not ask if you can do it? As long as the vehicle has the hand crank facility at the front... Failing that, why not visit a transport museum, maybe a military museum, and ask curator about it? Dad said that, when one man was winding the crank, and the next man took over, ( in the film, they stopped winding, and the next man started winding again, and dad said that was wrong ) ... He said that it was a CONTINUOUS movement.... the first man kept winding, and the second man kept the movement going at a CONSTANT rate, this enabled the gearing on the reverse gear to constantly mesh, meaning the amount of effort applied by the operator was always the same... This is why my Dad said that anyone who had carried this out in reality, would have known that the film was a little bit " off the mark ", but looked good for the film... He compared it to winding up a bucket of water from a well... hard work to get started, but, once started, quite easy to bring the bucket up at a steady rate... He said that it was always amazing, that a vehicle weighing maybe a ton or more, could be inched backwards with so little effort, all due to the reverse gear meshing and transferring a small amount of input into a small movement of the wheels, as we saw in the close-up of the tyre inching back... He also said that, on a sandy surface, it was essential NOT to break the surface cohesion of the wind blown sand, as that helped the tyres to grip better... Hope this all helps again.
Certainly does thanks 😊
Next for your analysis: Sand driving capabilities of the Afrika Korps Kubelwagen ;)
if I'm given one, LOVE to drive it, have the sand ready!
@@L2SFBC I learned skid control in a '70 Beetle in an abandoned sand pit... Great fun until the Police showed up.
When my old 1936 Hillman left the road while dodging a deer, it was in a 1 in 6 gradient pointing down a hill, I took the plugs out and put it in reverse gear and put the starting handle in and wound it up the hill.
Was it hard work? How far?
@@L2SFBC It was not hard work and easily do-able, I got it back up about 60 feet back up to the road, there was no damage to the car as it was well built.
So you couldn't drive it up the slope?
@@L2SFBC No it was too steep, the old side valve engines were very heavy too, when I had it on the road back in the day with only 3 forward gears and reverse if I came to a steep hill I would drive up in reverse, that is why in the film Ice Cold in Alex the ambulance was going up in reverse, with the plugs out to release the compression.
Wow...how cars have changed!!! Thanks for the post!
I just watched this film a few weeks ago.
Your explanation is great. Thanks so much for doing the numbers.
You're very welcome! Please share :-)
I love Ice Cold in Alex. I hope you haven't ruined my enjoyment. LOL
Umm....I do have a track record 😁😁
Fun fact, at the end of the film, the protagonists drive off in the back of a truck and in the background is an early Land Rover, first made in 1948!
Yes, I heard that! Would have put it in had I known at the time.
The only thing you got wrong there is that those ambulances were not four wheel drive, they had a plain straight steering axle in the front.
Yes many pointed that out, but that one was a 4x4 conversion
True but, as others have mentioned, there were 2 vehicles used. A real 1 and a made up 4x4 fake stand in for some shots.
Thank you for the use of metric-units!
You are welcome!
I have the actual truth about this scene.
My partner’s father was serving in the Royal Army Service Corps in Tripoli at the time of filming. They were approached by the film company for assistance with this scene. Eric and his crew actually winched up the ambulance from the other side of the dune with the rope hidden under the sand.
Fantastic thank you!
it would have been easier to take the wheels off and build a small cart and just take turns pulling the cart,two pull two rest on the cart,visa versa
There is actually a tunnel through the dune 150ms away.
Loved the video and the explanation. need a lager beer now !!
K2 only had 2 wheel drive and a single gearbox. So it would be much easier to hand crank the 4x4 mock up stand in with 4 wheel drive and a transfer box giving 4 lower ratios in all wheel drive. Much better mechanical advantage.
Thank you for your insightful technical analysis. I am curious about why, in the movie, they didn't use the mats under the wheels when they cranked the truck up backwards. The cover sleeve of the hard cover version Christopher Landon's book depicts this scene, with mats under the wheels, though. I think, using mats, it would change the equation in favour of the movie? (Incidently, I found the picture of the original hard cover of the book on eBay. ) Overall, in my opinion, it is one of the most original and under appreciated WWII films.
Yes it's a great movie and the mats or pieces of wood or similar would have helped. Anything to reduce the rolling resistance.
The answer for not using sand mats is given a little earlier - they were used to rescue the van der Poehl impersonator when he was going down in the quicksand and presumably lost.
I would not like to have my bath in Petrol, as they were supposed to be doing in the film. They had plenty of Petrol, but not enough water.
They tried this in a TV programme in the 90's. I think, memory's a bit hazy. It was one of those mythbuster type shows, made in the UK. I think they must've used a Land Rover. I think they tried going up a sand dune at somewhere like Camber Sands.
Gosh. When I watched this movie as a kid, for some reason I didn't think to take a pencil and paper to do the math.
Why ever not???? And hello, lots of people suddenly started watching this in the last 3 hours, where are you all from?
@@L2SFBC From Canada, but when a kid England. CZcams seems to be pushing it. And the thumbnail is great and not a misleading fake like a lot of them. It's a nice video, thoughtful and intelligent.
Thanks I can't bring myself to do fake thumbnails!
Dropping the tyre pressure might have got them over the dune quicker but does the K2Y have a compressor to pump them up afterwards? IIRC it was still a bit of a drive to get to Alex for that beer :-)
Well they could still proceed at a slow pace....or even use a foot pump!
That was really interesting physics breakdown but when it comes to story telling, since when did facts ever matter!!
That analysis is on spot...great video
Appreciate it! Please share :-)
Excellent analysis; however, I’d have got the film crew to bring a suitable recovery vehicle to help, along with the rest of the entourage. Would’ve taken no more than a few minutes and saved a lot of film too.
Maybe for the re-make ? :-)
RACT at Pucka used to do this on gravel hills What the vehicles were I have no idea They were old ww2 trucks and on Gravel not sand
On the farm years back my brother moved a Massey Harris # 30 tractor out of the barn he put a wood block under the clutch pedal and turned the belt pulley to move it ,slow but it worked .
Small but valid factor for you. They did a cheat on the film for the K2. The stock of vehicles were actually real WW2 kit ( less the land rover at the end) However to make the filming easier, they actually converted the K2 to four wheel drive in the workshops. WW2 original would have been 2 wheel drive, with a beam axel to front. Might change your calcs a fraction.
Thanks, yes a few people pointed that out plus the Land Rover...
Interesting analysis. Thanks for the filmtip. But there is one impossible scene: You can see a Land Rover in Alexandria at the end of the movie taking place in the year 1942. The car was launched 1948. The movie filmed in 1953. 😉
Yes indeed, many noticed this error :-)
The Austin K2 was not a 4x4 as built, however, the film-makers modified one example with the front axle from a CMP truck (you can clearly see it in the clips) to facilitate the vehicle's movement.
Thanks John!
Just adding a front wheel drive axle would not do the job. You need a transfer box etc to provide the prop shafts to drive both front and rear axles. That was why is was more economic to transplant an ambulance body and Austin cab front onto a freely available and cheap surplus CMP rolling chassis for the second ambulance used as a stunt double.
This was covered very well a long time ago by the Myth busters.
Great movie and as always with the TV & Film industry, possible in theory but !!!!!.
I had a Classic RR with a Capstan winch on the front and I could crank that alone the road through the winch 👍 Cracking clip Rob, Cheers Nick
I thought the K2 is a 2WD vehicle, but that doesn't change much i suppose?
It was modified to 4WD for the film
7:40 killed me. This was amazing.
Very nice analysis!
Thanks!
Did they remove all the wight?
I don't think so
Its a great movie.
One guess is no better than others
thank you for detail video
I don't have a problem with the explanation, I have a concern that people believe all that they see on TV and the movies. If you really want a challenge then look at Russell Coight's adventures. Pretty sure someone believes it all.
Yes, never was going to be real, but interesting to look at it nevertheless!
I hope you are not implying that Star Wars isn't real. What about all the people who've bought the costumes?
Those people are real...
This is so interesting! Must check out the movie now
It’s an absolute belter.
Yes it is a good watch
If you listen the guy suggested to take the spark plugs out which will give the engine no compression , but more importantly less mass of the vehicle, the weight is a measure of the size of the pull of gravity on the object. So in theory it should be possible.
I missed that! Mass reduction by sparkplug!!!
@@L2SFBC a few grams lol. Great interesting video 👍👍
Excellent Analysis Robert, a question would lowering the Tyre pressure not cause the Tyre to increase there footprint in the sand thus causing more surface friction between Tyre and sand? and making it Harder to wind the crank handle? I know this works with a Driving Vehicle as the Engine is providing the Torque I will have a look around to see if I can find the exact Number of splines in the Crown Gear / Wheel and Pinon for this model of vehicle, although I doubt if it will make any difference to your Analysis Thank you.
Yes you are correct. There is also more flex when the tyre rotates which uses energy and that is why fuel consumption increases on roads with low tyre pressures.
However on compression terrains such as sand this effect is much smaller than the positive effect of reducing sinking in due to a greater surface area of the tyre footprint.
Therefore lower pressures are the way to go in sand. Practical experience bears this out.
I have just read the book... ( again )... and have found an error in the film... We see them start to reverse-wind KATY up the slope.. About half way up, Sylvia Syms tries to turn the handle, slips over, then KATY goes down to the bottom of the sand slope, so they start again... This is incorrect... In the book, on page 222, it clearly states that, ( BEFORE they start the reverse-winding up the slope )... the gear lever is put into reverse, AND STRAPPED BACK !!!.... to ensure that, if anything goes wrong, the vehicle CANNOT move forward... So in the book, they only had to reverse-wind KATY up the slope on one occasion... I would strongly urge everyone to read the book, as there are significant differences in the book as compared to the film...
thanks!
@@L2SFBC Also, on page 222, it states that the lady nurse also contributed to the winding... Each person did 500 turns... I still think that a reverse-wind up a 100 yard slope was too much in actual practice... Wouldn't it be amazing if it could actually be done in reality, I mean, to do it, under controlled conditions, with video evidence, etc... maybe on a sand bank, or even somewhere in Egypt, with 4 volunteers, 3 men and 1 woman, and a suitable KATY... Just to prove, once and for all, if it WAS possible... Not just a token few yards, but a realistic 100 yards up a moderate slope...
Yes
The "Can't roll down hill in reverse gear" is WRONG!. The resistance to rolling down hill in reverse would be supplied by the compression resistance of the engine which is zero with the plugs out. So, if the hill is steep in enough, it will merrily turn the engine backwards as it rolls downhill in reverse gear.
@@dukwdriver2909 I would agree with your comment, if the gear stick is sitting in neutral,... i.e. NOT in the reverse selection.... Surely, if the gear stick has been put into reverse position, AND held in place.... Then I cannot believe that the vehicle could slide forward ? ... I think it would be great if we could all actually see it done in practice....
My wife has a PhD in physics. She usually waits until the show is over, then tells me how stupid it was.
I’m looking to get a synthetic recovery rope for my 4Runner. I only have a come-along, not a vehicle mounted winch. (Too much weight, power and cost for something I’ll use once a year). I’ll probably buy enough to make my own soft shackles too. What rope(s) would you recommend?
Depends where in the world you are for suppliers. But I would suggest that 8 to 10mm diameter would be good, and 30m maybe 40m so you can double line pull and still have some line left. I would also look at a Tirfor style winch rather than a come along.
@@L2SFBC thanks for the feedback! In Canada, so the best we got is a national industrial distributor or amazon. I’ll look into the trifor style winch. Thanks again!
mmm, you seem to have just made up some of your quantities, because you didn't know what they could be, which would wildly increase or decrease the final total[s]; in the last bit about lower tyre pressures and waiting for night, the second part [of part two] 'less overheating', you seem to be referring to MSM Pugh saying about the engine overheating, but the engine isn't running, it's being manually cranked in reverse, though waiting for night and lower temps would be easier on the people not overheating and suffering from heat exhaustion whilst doing strenuous work
"made up" = "educated estimate" :-)
Fun facts: The hottie in the movie is actress Sylvia SIms.
Sylvia Syms en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Syms
Are the starting handle dogs strong enough?
Good question...not designed for it so maybe not!
@@L2SFBC First time I saw the film many years ago I thought the task was impossible.
Noted I will not be watching a movie with you. 😊 interesting video though.
Aww come on it will be fun!
@@L2SFBC No I don't think it would be :)
No it was a film....
Hello Robert. I love this movie and have see it more than fifty times but always wondered if the last part was possible or not. In realty if your calculation is right, its impossible for anyone to have that much energy to crank it all the way up to the hill . Do not. Forget that they were living on a limited ration and shortage if water.
St the end i must ad that your analysis were great but you were going too fast and your accent was too strong for other people to follow you.
Sorry it was too fast! Given enough time anything is possible of course.
we did this with a
Your taking a 21st century attitude for a 1950's film
Isn't it fun?
@@L2SFBC no,not really seeing as your disrespecting a classic British ANTI WAR war film.besides,you arent in that position.what would you do in this situation,your in a 1940's KATIE truck during the Paris Dakar,you get stuck on a hill and you have NO COMPUTER/TECHNOLOGY,no way of working out angles degrees etc etc etc,no tyre pressure monitor or a pump to reflate the tyres pressure,only thing you have is some water.what would you do.
7:30 😂
Have to say, this is so Sad! Why dont you just visit your local and get pissed and image you are in Alex in the epic last scene? This is a Classic Film do you really think mr average is even remotely interested in all this petty physics lesson? SAD!! Pathetic in fact and frankly i dont give a four x
Is this a joke?
Depends on your perspective in life.
Arghhhhhhg