Psychopathic, Covert Borderlines (Literature Review)
Vložit
- čas přidán 3. 06. 2022
- Borderline switch between self-states. Self-states naming, Autopilot, "It wasn’t (like) me, Can’t place myself in the same state of mind or understand it."
Watch Borderline Woman as Dissociative Secondary Psychopath • Borderline Woman as Di...
Self-states (not the same as Millon’s or others’s typology or taxonomy)
Classic-dissociative: separation insecurity, engulfment anxiety, Relationship obsessive-compulsive disorder, philophobia, low Self-monitoring, impaired transparency estimation
The shy or quiet borderline internalizes her struggles rather than externalize them. She becomes the exclusive target of her own turmoil. She “acts in”.
Psychopathic Borderline/Dark Personality: violent/aggressive
Antisocial (secondary psychopath) Borderline: sociosexually unrestricted, compulsive sexting, transactional sex, promiscuous
Both the classic and covert borderline (many of the latter are men) act out.
LITERATURE
1. Front. Psychiatry, 10 December 2020 | doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2020.51...
Executive Dysfunction Associated With the Primary Psychopathic Features of Borderline Personality Disorder
José M. López-Villatoro, Marina Diaz-Marsá, Blanca Mellor-Marsá, Irene De la Vega and José L. Carrasco
2. APA PsycArticles: Journal Article
Borderline personality disorder as a female phenotypic expression of psychopathy?
Sprague, J., Javdani, S., Sadeh, N., Newman, J. P., & Verona, E. (2012). Borderline personality disorder as a female phenotypic expression of psychopathy?
Personality Disorders: Theory, Research, and Treatment, 3(2), 127-139. doi.org/10.1037/a0024134
3. Psychopathy and associated personality disorders: searching for a particular effect of the borderline personality disorder?
Nioche A., Pham TH, Ducro C, de Beaurepaire C, Chudzik L, Courtois R,
Réveillère C
Encephale 2010 Jun;36(3):253-9. doi: 10.1016/j.encep.2009.07.004. Epub 2009 Sep 26
4. The Journal of Forensic Psychiatry & Psychology, Volume 25, 2014 - Issue 6
Antisocial personality disorder comorbid with borderline pathology and psychopathy is associated with severe violence in a forensic sample
Richard C. Howard, Najat Khalifa, & Conor Duggan
5. Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 107, 1 March 2017, Pages 72-77
Students, sex, and psychopathy: Borderline and psychopathy personality traits are differently related to women and men's use of sexual coercion, partner poaching, and promiscuity
Roxanne Khan, PhD, Gayle Brewer PhD, Sonia Kim BSc, Luna C. Muñoz Centifanti PhD
6. Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 57, January 2014, Pages 14-19
Emotional dysregulation and Borderline Personality Disorder: Explaining the link between secondary psychopathy and alexithymia
Leigh E. Ridings, Catherine J. Lutz-Zois
7. Personality Disorders, 2022 May;13(3):288-299.
doi: 10.1037/per0000504. Epub 2021 Oct 21.
Do my emotions show or not? Problems with transparency estimation in women with borderline personality disorder features
Celine De Meulemeester, Benedicte Lowyck, Bart Boets, Stephanie Van der Donck, Patrick Luyten
Find and Buy MOST of my BOOKS and eBOOKS in my Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/stores/page/60...
As a borderline personality myself I find you more explanitive than the multitude of psychiatrists and therapist I've ever been involved with thankyou sir ✌️
Borderline switching is noticeable in the changes in facial features, tone of speech, and in my experience a change in accent and sometimes in language spoken.(switching from English to French for no apparent reason to me)
French is a good borderline language because of its rapid sub-machine gun pacing so the switch is understandable
@@kristoffseisler2163 She's French Canadian, so it was more like a sputtering tractor 😁
I thought only my ex would switch accents! She would be talking normal then talk in an english accent. However ive read this is also a behavior of someone autistic
@@aalves9453So I'm not the only one that absolutely despises that accent? I'm totally for inclusion for all, but that shit is legit sensory overload 😂
I’m scared this is demonic
Maybe I am a covert borderline. My therapists have stated that borderline people are so difficult that they don't want to treat them, but that I am willing to work with them and try to respect their boundaries. I worry about people labeling people and running away. Think of it this way: I was terribly abused as a child and subject to many moves due to foster homes. I was traumatized. Now people have a label that makes ME the enemy. I recognize that it's an internal battle, but I feel a bit attacked, and less helped by a lot of information. I feel like I'm dangerous, not physically, but psychologically to others. I genuinely care about other people. I am a real human being. I deserve love too. Just please don't make it harder to admit that some of this stuff fits and get the help I need. I didn't get much help as a kid, but I appreciate the people who did reach out. I don't know if this is a cohesive thought, but I am really trying to not be so trying.
Therapists that dont wanna help borderline people are out of a job. You talk about narcissism.
I hope you find the support you need. Honestly if some therapists/psychiatrists etc feel you do not fit within their abilities it may be for the best. At least you have not wasted time with an inadequate professional.
Possibly try searching for psychiatrists that specialise in borderline if treatment is available in your area.
It's very admirable you are trying to get help. I wish you the best
God bless you .keep learning I pray you find healing on your journey in Life .
@@Scorpio200 thank you, very much. I appreciate your support. It means a a lot.
Borderlines have no insight and never will. Is extremely dangerous. Your suffer cptsd. a child living in fear and apprehension
"people become psychologists because they're traumatized by their family names" 🤣hahahahah
Im a covert borderliner. Thanks for making it real clear to me this time, I still had a hard time believing it. I cant deny it any longer. You pushed all the buttons.
Same. And the amount of shame that came with it (for me). Ooofffff.
Why do BPD ex wife’s destroy their ex husbands..?
@@JohnY-Karmait’s essentially a way for the BPD woman to “build” (doesn’t last) herself up through a constructed version of the partner that is bad which justifies their bad behaviors or at least that’s how I understand it
Waw! I’ve experienced that switching with my former girlfriend. They indeed are different people/self-states
My switching is heavily influenced by flashbacks. This is why I agree that this disorder is based on PTSD. I honestly believe this is the body's and psyche's coping mechanisms gone awry.
Agreed. I think so too.
@@claudia-Silva not everyone who develops PTSD is a borderline. There's PTSD and c-PTSD. There's likely a biological propensity and a cPTSD response in a lot of cases, from what I've seen. I could be wrong, though, that's why I let the pros diagnose.
@@claudia-Silva sorry, I apologize. I was following this and wrote my own comment and I shou ld have looked closer. Thank you for being nice about it.
@@claudia-Silva lucky you! Of course not everyone had BPD or the same traits.
i find it makes a lot of sense, yes cptsd, multiple "mixed" repeated trauma over time.
Doc always makes me laugh. He's on top of his game too. Thanks for sharing it.
Excellent explanation and presentation on giving clarity on borderline personality disorders.
Indeed!
I’m a Brazilian living in US. I’ve been watching your videos for 2 years or so. I NEVER understood myself especially my relentless search for belonging somewhere, until now and still. I’ve been trying therapy , coach , religion , just me with myself, and I feel that i still running in circles. Always choosing my targets and almost them with NPD traits or NPD themselves. Self trashing a lot in this last 4 years as well. It was a long path until I realize that I possible have BPD or should I say I am a BPD… I feel relieved in a way and hopeless in another way… but the only thing that I can be is myself. Now that I know the pattern I can at least understand or try to , my behaviors. I wasn’t diagnosed yet … but as soon as I can I’ll make sure. But here is the thing , I don’t trust almost anyone for that 😅 Okay xoxonin!!! Thank you San Vaknin … Idk if I’ll be different some day but now I know why.
You are incredible Prof.Vaknin. Thank you for sharing your profound knowledge! Another excellent explanation video.
It takes a special deeply intuitive intelligence kind of person that takes to time to explain this bless you Sam..
Covert borderline is a spot on description. Would still love to hear more after watching every video 2-3 times
Im not sure if i might be borderline aswell, i recently got diagnosed with ASD. I can barely control my emotions when communicating with my parents, as they are so cold and are not looking to help me in living a life. They just dont care. My grandmother (fathers side) was bipolar, my father is very cold, no empathy at all, cant hold eye contact. My mother is less "cold" but even if she seems to care she never asks what i need or seems to look forward to helping me. They never change their behaviour, not even after i got my diagnosis 2 months ago. They dont even know what exactly autism is :D
Maybe they have it too.
Thank you for this video and for your work. It helped me to understand myself better. I feel like through my life I went from quiet, through classic, to covert borderline. Luckily for me, I’m very little antisocial so I didn’t do so many stupid shit in my youth and I managed to function relatively well 😅. Funny part is with this transition between the types, I feel like it’s just more clowns in my internal circus. If I was supposed to tell how it feels it’s like a circus with around 7 clowns, one is constantly locked in a cage because it’s evil and useless. Now the show is directed by a psychopath cause no one normal would stand that clowns, the road between performances is an emotional rollercoaster build on the edge of a cliff and in the abyss is madness. So much fun my life is. 🎉
Your inspired a series of paintings! Thank you Dr. for your insightful take!
I believe borderlines value children over adult partners or adults in general due to the reasons you listed explaining why borderlines engage in approach avoidance and sabotage relationships; ie. a deep and pervasive lack of trust of people in general, disappointment in humankind, disappointment in personal relationships, the expectation of betrayal, low confidence in others, extreme independence, wishing not to rely on others to avoid the inevitable rug pull, and perhaps not being very impressed with their adult partners. Conversely, children who haven't been corrupted and who don't possess neurological disorders, are typically lovely. They are sweet and guileless for the most part, and when they do appear to harbor an agenda, they are typically transparent and harmless. They are curious about life, and their optimism and excitement in just being alive is contagious. They don't require expensive material trappings to be satisfied, and they appear genuinely pleased with simple pursuits, such as ice cream. I like ice cream. The main difference though is children are unable to effectively be self sufficient or defend themselves against harmful elements, so it's our duty to protect them and provide a safe and stable environment where they can grow and develop into productive and independent adults. Hopefully kind, loving, trustworthy adults who don't make a habit of letting others down after winning their trust. Some thing are outside of our control.
I fully agree with your hypothesis regarding quiet borderlines and psychopathy. I was reading something where a psychopath referred to feeling a sort of switch within themselves just before they give in completely to their psychopathic self and lose touch with the remaining fragments of humanness and civilization. I believe that happens with borderlines, as well, when they are no longer in control of themselves and give themselves over to blind rage or whatever it is they succumb to. There's a switch which occurs internally which is often also externally visible to someone who observing. Narcissists do that too, and it's really terrifying for anyone witnessing it. It's probably best if we leave the Cluster B folks to date within their own pathological pool, especially if that's their preference. They can lovebomb each other into endless shared fantasy and live hatefully together in bittersweet folie a deux, whilst avoiding harming anyone else. As viscous as they are, they can also take it. Pain is their business, and business is good. Which may not be the case for many unsuspecting neurotypicals who require several Tic Toc aliases and a couple of youtube channels to vent their outrage after ending a relationship with a Cluster B partner, whereupon they recount their suffering in minute detail for likes and monetization, offering coaching sessions until they can one day hopefully recover. Bless their heart.
Thank you ❤ so grateful for your work.
Great one, Sam! Reading cues = Yes, a struggle for sure. More work needed. Spent 26 years with therapy trying to understand my Very Loving Mom....From u I learned she was Borderline ..... never before. TU. She is at Peace now.... D
Thank you Prof Vaknin.
Interesting-thank you for the lecture in real time, for your honesty & making me think-Excellent!
Q in a nutshell: What are the commonalities between the covert narcissist & the covert borderline?
Professor Sam, I must thank you from the bottom of my heart for indicating that borderline and psychopathy are two mutually exclusive concepts. I have a theory that can be presented in a form of an axis which includes BPD and further - psychotic states on one side of the spectrum and ASPD and psychopathy on the other and your words seem to be affirming my thesis. Unfortunately I am just a psychology student thus far, but this is my sketch idea for my future studies and research. Thank YOU!
This video is outstanding.
You said the CB is not fully emotionally disregulated. Can you please expand on that?
one of your best
Did you not state in your other video that covert borderlines value children more than spouse because they are child-like themselves and in fact not at all because they are sources of narcissistic supply?
are there any available studies on cptsd and borderline ?
IM GONNA SUBMIT ALL WOMEN I DATE TO A PSYCH EXAM.......WASTED THE LAST 5 YRS OF MY LIFE BOTH WERE CONFIRMED TO HAVE DSM-5 CLUSTER B PERSONALITY (NPD) & BIPOLAR WITH MEDS & ADDICTED TO NORCO'S........PEOPLE SUCK
@@bodhisattva3774 JUST TRYING TO MEET A FEMALE THATS NORMAL.......I HAVE NO IDEA WHY IM A MAGNET TO DYSFUNCTIONAL PEOPLE.......I WATCH YOUR VIDEOS ALL THE TIME FOR INSIGHT
@@davidraduziner8732 Do you approach them, or do they approach you first?
@@notsev7566 SORRY FOR DELAY I TOOK A NAP & SHOWERED......THEY APPROACH MR SIR AFTER MY BODY LANGUAGE, VERBAL RESPONSE & ACTIONS SHOW INTEREST.......
@@notsev7566 I KNOW WHAT YOUR GONNA SAY........CLASSIC COVERT NARC LOL......SEEK SUPPLY & SEE EMPATHY I STUDIED FOR 6 MONTHS AFTER 1ST BREAK UP HECK I HAVE A PHD IN IT NOW LOL THX SIR
@@davidraduziner8732 You can’t blame them if you show interest first. It just means you actively go out and take interest in people with such traits. You need to become more aware yourself and the patterns of your choices in partner selection.
Did you grow up in a narcissistic or abusive home? If yes, do they resemble a parent or make you feel at home?
What do you look for in an ideal partner or what makes you fall for someone?
Do you suffer from low self-esteem?
Have you made any efforts to identify such people for further prevention in the future?
Do you have strong boundaries?
Do you leave when there are red flags?
What does a boring relationship vs a fun relationship look like to you? etc, etc.
Questions like these like these are all questions you should be asking yourself to heal and become aware of your mistakes in dating.
Can those with bpd cycle thru the different kinds of borderline personality types throughout their life?
Can you explain the difference between this, quite bpd and covert narcissism? I thought i was covert NPD but after watching this i think covert/narcissistic bpd
There is no such thing as “quite bpd”. It is mostly online nonsense. As to your question, search the BPD playlist on this channel.
@@samvaknin thank you! I'll look into that!!
Great video Sam . Thanks for your remarkable work. I have a question for you : What does the borderline really mean when he/she is telling to his/her child “kiddo I love you”? It’s just a way to manipulate the child to make him obey to the borderline? Thanks
Thank you
This is me for sure. Now I know. I remember being in denial about BPD because it hit so many buttons for me. But I didn’t act out as a classic would. I was caught between am I a covert narcissist or a borderline. I know I am passive aggressive and I’m successful in my career and have been married for almost 30 years. But internally this is the way I am programmed. I don’t want to have this. But I think my childhood definitely helped have a hand in this. My father was a malignant narcissist. Married 8 times and played every woman like it was chess game. My mother had borderline traits BUT she was also successful in her career and married for 40 years to my step dad until she passed away unexpectedly this year.
I am aware but I don’t know how else to be. Recognizing I have this is maybe the 1st step. My kids are important to me but it’s not for supply. I want to be a better parent than what I had growing up. As far as my spouse, that’s where I struggle with love. I have a hole inside that can’t be filled. A void. My narcissistic father use to describe the same thing. He realized he would never be happy with one woman.
When schools were closed for the pandemic, many people said it would be devastating for the kids because they need to socialize, and kids who don’t get to socialize have trouble down the line. I didn’t hear specific examples given of how a lack of socializing with peers in school could cause harm. Would you say this is related to one of your last points in this video, that these disorders have in common an inability to effectively read others? It seems to me, and my interpretation of your videos supports this, that this issue manifests in borderlines as an inability to recognize that some, if not all other people exist entirely outside the borderline’s own perception. I think this is related in one way or another to the borderline’s lack of a self (whether cause or effect, I don’t know). A result is then that the borderline operates by rules they apply to what others should do, rather than relating to people as they are. This person should behave this way…that person didn’t, so I’m outraged…, etc. So, does socializing with lots of different kids at a young age help a person to develop that ability to read others and to grasp that everyone has an independent existence? A child raised entirely by people with these disorders may not be able to socialize with healthy kids, as their culture is so different. Can we break generational trauma cycles by addressing this in some way at school?
Would a person be considered borderline if the multiple states kick in during alcohol use?
Can you be a mix of all these borderline types that you've mentioned (the same way you described " there's no only quiet or classical types?"And can you become some different subtype as soon as you get aware of your behavioural patterns?
Yes.
Wow 😯 my ex fits your description of the covert borderline to the T.
I love these videos, they are educational but I am diagnosing myself, rendering myself insane. Can these traits apply to healthy people just to lesser degrees? I don't get feedback that I'm crazy/sick from others but I feel like I might be after watching these videos.
Have you ever known anyone that is healthy with all positive coping strategies? Anyone I can think of hurts themselves or others with neglect, addiction, or some sort of compensating behavior. All abuse.
I have been feeling that same way watching these videos. I have started examining myself and every relationship in my life in a different light. Some of the videos are spot on to what is going on in my thoughts and behaviors at the present time and the past.
You make a good point. Nobody is perfect.
The way you're questioning yourself makes me doubt you have bpd. Have you checked the criteria for cptsd? There's a huge overlap. Definitely get a real diagnosis from a professional. It's too complex and you're too much seeing everything through your own filters to look at it objectively.
Bollocks, you would know if you were healthy
czcams.com/video/F6LW-xzSSBE/video.html
Think sphincter--Freud and Eric berne. Can you describe bpd and npd in terms of infantile bodily functions--as experienced by the child. Thanks for the perennial spin.
Perfect
I’ve never checked every box before I heard “Covert Borderline”. Shit…every single box… 🎭
My ex who I believe is bpd/npd would go from crying and sobbing to physically abusing me, then crying again, what was he?
I have seen the movie The Staircase and documentary and the case is about a potential killer and noone really knows if he is a murderer or not
Is it possible that a covert borderline and a classic borderline form a romantic relationship?
Yes.
wow this vid! its spot on for some things ive been thinking a long time about how justice movements don't work. thats why 12 step recovery is so important (for me at least)- its not victim based
15:23 Brief recap of Covert Borderline.
14:18 covert borderlines 30:35
Czy możliwe jest leczenie i uspołecznienie ? Czy pomimo wszystko można pracować nad zdrową relacją z ukrytym borderline ?
No.
I have a long time friend who displays a lot of these traits and I think she's a undiagnosed borderline as well as having ROCD. At times she has mentioned that she wants help. Do you have a suggestion as to how I could share your information with her in a manner that she wouldn't feel hurt by the accusation of this or some other threatening reaction?
Can you do a video or explain how alcohol affects covert borderlines ? Is it similar to how it affects covert narcissists ?
No. Search the channel for “cocaine”.
What does shoshanim mean?
It’s Jewish, meaning “lilies.” In the Biblical context, the word “ששנים,” has at least something to do with the word “lilies,” as well as the number six/six-stringed instrument, somehow.
so are you talking about a split personality.
like Sybil?
No.
I'll never forget your two last sentences. There's nothing worse than this, because you'll never get the help that's urgendly needed. But all that happens is that they'll have a beautyful income and patients that can not escape this insanity. Money, money, money...
I love the poetry hahaha
I’m lost. Overwhelming sense of drama. Inability to read cues.
Haha 😂
I'm a homosexual. I haven't seen much on your explanations on hetero and homesexuals. But i Commeted and said I thought I could be psychopath, but maybe I'm just a classic borderline?
I think I have at least half of these disorders at this point lol
Just Gay
@@dianeraye8765 well I'm hetero, but the rest..there are so many disorders out there...lol
25:11 lol Hasan Piker
That’s hilarious
I'm so embarrassed. I'm a freak. No wonder nobody wants to be around me.
Oh my. This is an exact description of my ex. Can you include potential proclivity to sexual attraction to children in the covert borderline since they have the inner child splitting of the narcissist coupled with the strong connection to children in the covert.
Thank you