What Makes Lagrange Points Special Locations In Space
Vložit
- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- Lagrange Points are special locations in planetary systems where gravitational and rotational forces cancel out. Sometimes we find asteroids or dust clouds lingering near these places. Space missions may use some of these locations for spacecraft as they offer many advantages over orbiting in the Earth directly.
Universe Sandbox is used for some of the 3 body problem animations
universesandbox.com/
Other graphics are created with GMAT and POV Ray
For a more mathematical derivation of these check out this series:
• Lectures on Halo Orbits
Follow me on Twitter for more updates:
/ djsnm
I have a discord server where I regularly turn up:
/ discord
If you really like what I do you can support me directly through Patreon
/ scottmanley - Věda a technologie
As wikipedia says, "In an effort to avoid naming everything after Euler, some discoveries and theorems are attributed to the first person to have proved them after Euler."
Good point
was euler really that much of a genius? a wonder he's not spoken of with the same reverence as newton.
🤣
@@oldfrend Euler was the greatest Mathematician to ever live
That tells us just how bitchy and envious these people were. He figured that shit out, so he deserves the honor.
Those were some of the most intuitive graphics I've seen when explaining Lagrange points. Well done, Scott!
I came here to say the same thing. THESE pictures are worth a thousand words.
I agree...👍👍
Ditto.
Without reservation, Lagrange points have never been better described by graphics.
Right, Scott is the man.
Amazing video
Was going to post the same.
For a non-science person like myself, these graphics were super helpful to better understand this concept! Just witnessed the launch this morning so I had to look for more information to further clarify L2. Thank you!
Same here 😊 Webb is on its way (3rd day) to L2 so better understand it a bit better 😀 Hope Webb will last longer than the estimated 5 years...! Happy New Year from Denmark --- Per
You are not a non-science person if you're trying to understand it.
@Michael Jordan Rosalind Franklin
@Michael Jordan Fishing I see
Does "non-science" mean low IQ?
Finally, an explanation that is clear, concise, and visually communicative for us lay people. Thanks so much!
Exactly. I've had trouble understanding how the JWST could basically orbit "nothing" so far, but this video at least gave me a bit of an idea of how it works. Still can't fully wrap my head around it, but at least it doesn't just sound like math magic to me anymore. xD
I'm a physics student and I've done the math. But those graphics were really next level. Thanks, Scott!
I’m a pixel student and have done the animating but those maths were really next level.
@@randbarrett8706 The mathematics behind it are really fun! you should try them out.
He lost me at Hi I'm Scott Manley.
I completed an undergraduate degree in Physics and we never covered Lagrange points or the three body problem. What level of classical mechanics did you do it in, or did you just do it for fun?
And judging by your nickname I’d guess you’re studying physics at UFSC and lives at Lagoa da Conceição. Did I guess it right? 😄
It always blows me away what math people were able to work out centuries ago. So much of where we are today and what we are able to accomplish is based on hundreds and even thousands of years of technology and mathematical understanding.
Even more wild, is that they discovered a rule of thumb that requires no math at all. L4 and L5 are located on two equilateral triangles with the long side centered on a line between both bodies. That's easy! (Though NASA points out that the distances involved are large enough that you have to take into account additional gravitational sources, such as the sun and nearby planets.
Ole Romer was a boss. Calculating the speed of light in tar 17th century.
@@r3dp9 Equilaterial triangles with a long side?
They each form an equilateral triangle with the two bodies: E.g. Star-planet-L4 and Star-planet-L5 will form 2 equilateral triangles, and these triangles lie within the orbital plane. That perfectly defines the position of L4 and L5 for any system.
With you
They didn't have our tech, so they *had* to work it out on paper. ...practice makes perfect.
I'm pleased the youtube algorithm thinks I'm smart enough to appreciate this video
Indian here. Came after our space agency ISRO launched a Sun probe this morning named Aditya-L1 which will stay at Lagrange 1 point.
That 3d model representation was great!
Fantasy.
La Grange means "barn" in France.
Quite poetic really, to place your satellites in a nice safe barn in space. 👍😎
Reading that reminded me of Jean-Jacques Perrey's silly little piece _Barnyard in Orbit._
I hear they got a lotta nice girls.
The most mundane things sound so fancy in French.
Actually mean "The" barn.. for our english friends.. . But i get the point :-)
Are there "Sharp dressed man" and "Gimme all your lovin'"points?
Lagrange Points are incredibly complex concepts. Thank you Scott for helping me understand them a little bit more.
Scott, one of your best ever presentations with very intuitive graphics, your impeccable narration balanced between detailed but layman accessible,
and kept ever-entertaining with your boundless enthusiasm! Perfectly timed preparing us for the arrival of JWSS!
I totally agree - the Webb telescope has sent me searching for Lagrange explanations, and this is great.
Why is euler everywhere??? okay I'm convinced that euler's a time travelling math wizard
Ben Stein: Euler? Euler?
Genius got more ideas between breakfast and dinner that aweraje joe in his lifetime
@@juhajuntunen7866 Lmao ikr!
gangsta of the mathematical world
Being a genius is not enough. Imagine being born a genius in the 17th century - to peasant parents. You would be sentenced to a life of drudgery, your genius lost forever. The same applies today, come to think of it.
"But adding a third body just leads to chaos."
I love how that statement is both technically and colloquially accurate.
And add to that, EVERYTHING in the universe is attracted to everything else.
Yeah and let me tell you, even if it was her idea in the first place, the third body still causes chaos
@@apotheosis27 a friend of mine has a wife who is not very nice, and at one point was properly massive. I guess gravity is what kept them together during that time.
@@david94549 haha yeah man that story pretty much always ends the same way
well, if your going all the way to "that whore mound called LaGrange " you may as well pay for a 3rd body!
Brilliantly and clearly explained, and very interesting to watch. Thanks for finally managing to make this, Scott!
The rotating potential well graphics were a complete revelation moment for me.
Just watched for a second time; now I really get it thanks to Scott’s well paced authoritative narrative and great graphics. Thanks, and long live JWST!
Lagrange points getting a scott explanation is pretty awesome
I cannot wait for the James Webb. I hope the fuel it has on board miraculously lasts much longer than it is supposed to.
I wonder if it'd have any use in an end-of-life eccentric Earth orbit or Heliocentric orbit...
@@grantexploit5903 Yes when it finishes the 12 year mission, if it can, it's supposed to stay in a heliocentric orbit and keeping reporting on any fly-bys.
"We accidentally added a second fuel tank so we figured we might as well fill it."
Let's hope Starship to make refueling easier.
The fuel is planned for 11 years but the gossip is that they think they can get quite a few more years than than. The most significant factor is the Mid Course Correction (MCC) planned for 12.5 hours after launch. If it occurs on time it won't have to dip into the L2 station keeping fuel. If the MCC gets delayed for any reason it will eat into the fuel budgeted for the science mission causing the mission to be shorter.
That time lapse of the Earth from the Sun's perspective as the year cycled was really fascinating.
Mr. Manley, superb video. I’d never seen 3-dimensional depictions of “gravitational warping” but your video showed this. The L-points were expertly shown and described. Thank you!
First heard of L-points in the '90s game "I-War" where they were used as start and end points for interstellar jumps but I never quite "got" why all of them existed. So thanks for this Mr Manly, you've dissipated a bit of twenty-odd year old incomprehension.
What an amazing videogame.
@@Schyz Yep. Space sims without that really stupid "space friction" can be counted on one hand, and two of them are I-War 1 & 2.
@@AldorEricsson If you are looking for another space game with no space friction, you may be interested in Space Engineers. It is a building game though, rather than a sim. Think of it as mincraft in space with physics
The L1 point tends to crop up a lot in sci-fi because of a subtle misconception. Writers assume it's the point where the gravitational fields cancel out. It's not, but it is very close, astronomically speaking.
I think I first heard about lagrange points in Gundam, I was kinda surprised when I found out that the lagrange points were real and that the colonies design were inspired by a concept called O'Neill cylinders made by the physicist Gerard O'Neill.
I literally just learned about Lagrange multipliers today, with an exam on multivariable critical points/ extrema on Monday and now its connected to my favorite subject, space, and my day is made
The way you explain complex concepts and make it so understandable and enjoyable is phenomenal thankyou scott
None of the other videos about Lagrange points make any sense … just guys retelling what they heard without understanding anything. I think you understand this stuff and explained it well. Thank you.
I thought I already had a good understanding of lagrange points but I learned lots here
I learnt that L4 and L5 were wells- we didn’t get told about the Coriolis force.
@@idjles It makes so much more sense. I could never understand why those points didn't just slowly accumulate dust and debris until it made a big enough object to mess up the lagrange effect. An incorrect theory I'd had myself was maybe 'large' objects can form in lagrange points and then drift away but we'd just never seen it happen. I thought it could possibly be an important factor in planet formation or whatever.
Now I know the better explanation: I had been misinformed in a sort of accurate way with the best of intentions. I love when you get to understand something in a new/better way. Anti-science people never understand that science is a self correcting method of understanding things, not a list of facts.
Finding out I'm wrong is so damn exciting sometimes :)
Same.
Wonderful explanation of the LaGrange points! I knew what they were from the equations, but I never saw the rotating reference from potential wells before. That really makes it clear what's going on.
I also didn't know why L4 and L5 were stable. It's pretty obvious that the others wouldn't be stable though.
You are a wonderful teacher Scott!
Same here. It all makes sense now.
They're not entirely stable. I read somewhere, years ago, that they should be OK to park something at for about 200 000 years.
@@ozzymandius666 yeah though it is a matter of timescale even Jupiter's L4 & L5 aren't truly stable just stable enough to still have a bunch of captured bodies from the formation of the solar system over 4.5 billion years later.
Though really given enough time no orbit is stable in our large complex universe where n approaches infinity and that is without considering gravitational waves which over vast amounts of time cause orbits to gradually radiate away energy
Thanks Scott! I've been curious about Lagrange points for a while (playing Star Citizen and wondering if they were arbitrary or otherwise), this was extremely clear and very fun to learn from. Keep doing your thing!
The contour plot max this instantly make sense. Thanks for the intuitive understanding Scott!
Perfectly balanced, as all lagrange points should be!
spiffing brit
I understood that reference.
Just like my...
Gravity is a perfectly balanced system with no exploits whatsoever
Just watched SmarterEveryday’s videos on JWST and was very interested in learning more about all the Lagrange points. Thanks for the video scott
Too.
I think Scott, Destin, Physics Girl, and Amy Teitel should collaborate to make one of a kind of a video!
Methinks Scott and Destin track each other’s orbits!
Best explanation on CZcams of the Lagrange points. Easy to follow and the graphics are amazing. Thanks!
By far the most comprehensive description of Lagrange points I've seen so far.
The nunber of "aHA!" moments of me realizing what you were saying because of the animations was quite high. Really good stuff, Scott.
Hey I live by a lagrange point! LaGrange, Georgia! Hyuk hyuk *slaps knee*
So hilarious 😂
Haw haw haw haw...
From Atlanta here , very nicely done . a tip of the hat to you sir oh, nice to meet another fan of Scott Manley the way I look at it a LaGrange point is like watching two small soap bubbles circling 1/3 from a gravitational standpoint
Fun fact: Lagrange, GA is an almost perfect model of the L1 point in the Atlanta - Columbus Suckitude System.
So you are one of the 'party gals', or maybe the son of one. Hyuk hyuk *slaps knee*
Very cool. After 50 other videos trying to explain it to me over the years, your video has finally given me at least _some_ decent understanding of why Lagrange points work!
Fantastic visualisations to explain the Lagrange Points concepts. Great work, Scott.
Thanks Scott!
Now I have a much better understanding of the stability of the Lagrange Points. Likely not capable of a complete understanding but I do now have a “better” understanding. Orbital mechanics is basically simple yet mind numbingly complex.
Interesting to see both Lucy and JWST having their missions/orbits focuced on Lagrange Points!
There are dozens of spacecraft at SEL2, JWST will certainly be the most famous one. My personal favorite there is Gaia!
And SOHO is at L1. I thought Kepler was too, but could not find the reference. I must have misremembered it.
@@olmostgudinaf8100 Kepler telescope wasn't on L point, but on "trailing heliocentric" orbit. That is, it is a bit farther from the Sun than Earth, with orbital period of ~373 days.
And Aditya L1 of ISRO
Interesting note: James Webb is going to orbit the Sun - Earth Lagrange point, not just park in the centre of it, because it needs to peek out of the Earth's shadow once in a while to get some Sun to power its stuff.
That is the best visual/graphical discussion of LaGrange Points I have ever seen. Thank you!
amazing graphic representation without overly oversimplifying. Awesome video.
This is exactly the nuanced explanation I’ve been looking for every time I look up Lagrange points, thank you!!
I remember writing simulations of this after taking multivariable calculus… Such an awesome problem to work on as a challenge!
I had to look at a few videos and websites before someone showed why L4 and L5 are where they are. The gravity-well images made it so much more clear than other sites and videos. Thanks!
Nice clip; and great renderings of the concepts underpinning the LaGrange points.
I've seen a hundred of these explanations, but now I finally understand it.
I've known about Lagrange points and had a basic understanding of what was going on, but the visualizations at 5:35 really made it click! I think it helps I've been recommended that one video on flipping a sphere inside out, but with the combined gravity wells diagramed as deformities on the object's surface having the "bowls" (although bowls in this diagram aren't Lagrange points themselves), "saddles", and "domes" I finally pieced it together! While I'm not using the proper terminology each time the surface "inverts" a point exists where a theoretical marble would fail to fall out of it's place.
This was the best illustration of Lagrange (Euler) Points I've ever seen! Thanks, Scott!
Thanks for the explanations, and the added bonus of the models and graphics. Now even us mere meteorologists can make sense of this stuff! Excellent vid!
Thank you so much for this. My layman mind has been struggling with this for 2 years while reading about and watching videos on the James Webb telescope. This is simplest and most easily understood explanation of the Lagrange points I've found.
Thank you for a well-done explanation Scott. It's not easy to wrap one's head around this but you have helped immensely.
Excellent stuff Scott! Thanks so much. I needed a little more on these gravity eddies.
So much education in a single video. Thanks for teaching me how to chill in a group of orbital bodies.
First learned about Lagrange points through one of the cards in Terraforming Mars, great to have an in-depth explanation!
This video so simplified the concept of LeGrange Points! Thank you Scott!
Brilliant explanation without over-simplifying - great job!
I'll bet this video is getting a ton of hits these days! Great work putting this together. Thank you!!
Great visuals and explanation of lagrange points. I understood what they were before but the graphics helps me with the comprehension considerably.
SM is a national treasure
The BEST explanation I've ever seen. Great graphics!
Really interesting video, great visuals and fantastic explanations. Thanks, Scott, you're always a go-to point when it comes to space science.
That weird shadow on the Sun sphere almost convinced me I had dead pixels on my display.
Best explanation/representation of Lagrange points I've seen. Thanks.
Thank you for the wonderful graphics I appreciate your artistry
Thanks Scott
Great explanation - the graphics really help explain the phenomena
I got the idea of JWT going for L2 is also because it has earth's protective shadow shielding it from the sun, being in a position of permanent eclipse, because it needs to be cool for the infrared telescopy to work. Otherwise, L4/L5 would be better choices, no?
@@bnightm okay, so now why is L2 chosen then for this? as L4 and L5 are much stabler wouldn't that mean a much longer period of operation?
Or is it just than L4 and L5 are more difficult to reach making the additional fuel spent to stay stable in L2 not worth it?
@@georgelionon9050 L2 was chosen so that the JWST can occlude both the sun AND earth (and moon?) with one heat shield. The infrared wavelengths that JWST will observe will be affected by the heat from the Sun of course, and even the earth (and moon for all I know). So having the JWST in an orbit such that a single heat shield can ALWAYS occlude the sun and earth is a great help
@@markshumate78 I see makes sense, thank you
That was an excellent explanation for this Scott, thanks for sharing! Fly safe brother 👊
Brilliant video. I’ll echo a lot of the comments saying that the presentation and graphics make this very complex subject much easier to understand. Please keep up the great work.
Probably first time I really get an intuitive feel about Lagrange points. Many thanks, this was really great!
Always love a good Manley explainer
That was a bloody epic visual representation! :D
I don't think I've had a better understanding of gravity wells than I did watching this video. Thank you, Scott, for all the science knowledge you impart so seemingly effortlessly.
Fascinating. The final graphic depicts the Lpoint scenario best.
It's so much like fluid dynamics. Hearing this stuff really does help illustrate the concept of spacetime. It's literally a sea, but without water or even matter. Orbiting a lagrange point is like surfing a sea of nothingness 😎🏄♂️.
Not nothingness is avoiding chaos.
Right when I think to myself about a subject Scott uploads a video about that very subject without fail
This is the best explanation and exposition regarding Lagrange points that I've ever seen.
The best description of LaGrange points I've seen. The one weakness is the inclusion of the Coreolis force (which of course isn't a real force at all) when that comes in, you should hit pause and compare this picture to Earth-bound artillery: the L4 and L5 points are continually leaving the orbiting object behind as they revolve about the large object.
Thank you for this lucid explanation of a very interesting scientific fact.
As India has sent it's first Solar mission 'Aditya' L1, the significance of the L1 helps to understand the purpose of the mission..👍🏻👍🏻
the most dangerous is Lagrange Point 5 where Solomon, Zeon's stronghold, is located
Side3, if I’m not mistaken.
FWIK
L1 = Side 4
L2 = Side 3 + A Baoa Qu
L3 = Side 7 + Luna two
L4 = Side 2 + Side 5
L5 = Side 1 + Side 6 + Solomon
That's a professional way to explain something which is complicate to understand. Thank you for enlightenment on this space atmosphere. I m stunned by the graphics used.
One of the best Lagrange explanations I have ever seen. Thank you sir.
Could you put a pair of radio telescopes at Earth's L4 and L5 points and use interferometry to get an effective dish size of only slightly smaller than Earth's orbit?
@@gamerfortynine Not really a problem, just sync them all using the same set of quasars, then factor in gravitational time dilation. The tech is around since 1990s.
Short answer: yes
Slightly longer answer: but it's not easy
Slightly longer corollary: and it's prohibitively expensive
You could add in telescopes to this at the L1&2 points stabilized by solar sails and sharpen up your results.
@@gamerfortynine Sounds like a job for one of those new fangled computers they got in them there big city's.
@@AldorEricsson I now quasars are fine for navigation, but are the fast enough to synch the phase of a radio wave?
Brilliant! Wanted to learn about the nitty gritty if the Lagrange points since first heard about them.
If you really want nitty gritty down to calculus and all that you should check out this series: czcams.com/play/PLbfY1f0QFa4OI2_zsNuuwI3YCsZluLFZ6.html
Agree with the previous comment... I've seen the whole "big black trampoline with a heavyweight in the middle" explanation before... but this was the first time it made complete sense...
Seriously.... Great Job!!
I commented before hearing about position corrections needed for the Webb.
You gave a good explanation of the stability of position at Lagrange points.
Well that’s the most interesting thing I’ll see today. Thanks Scott. Great animations also. Makes me want to run a simulation with two “tethered” particles orbiting on opposite side of the L4 or L5 to see if it cancels out orbit instability at all
Jupiter Trojaner are on T4 and T5. Stable position.
Instant thumbs up! I’ve been waiting for this video!
Excellent graphics and explanation. Thanks for sharing.
Great explanation Scott and great visuals. 👍
At 2:02 Scott says "it's stable", but most Lagrange points are actually unstable.
(Unstable in this context means that if an object is perturbed away from the Lagrange point, that perturbation will grow over time.)
Or any perturbation for that matter. Like in aircraft. Which I learn from Scott Manleys ksp videos. So probably not helping
As opposed to stable aircraft
if you look at what's happening, they actually set them up to orbit around the point - essentially setting them a bit uphill and letting it roll up and down the sides of the saddle while using rcs to keep it from falling off the front or back; that's what the entire back third of the video is about.
He mentioned further on that it’s not ideal as Euler hypothesised but can still be useful for some sense of stability
Thanks, finally I understand why India Named Aditya L1 ( sun exposure mission), We are proud have say our Indian scientist made theoretical knowledge in practically applied and make the founder Proud...
An excellent explanation backed up by excellent graphics. Thank you!
Thanks! I'd always struggled to visualise how or why the L3 spot was even a thing. Now it's totally clear to me.
Well done explanation and animation, thanks for sharing. Not that Euler's mathematical feats weren't amazing enough, but is there any way of knowing if Euler worked on this 3-body problem during the latter period of his life when he continued to do cutting edge math while blind? Also, the JWST was inserted into its L2 halo orbit today. Kudos to all.
These get a role in the Neal Stephenson book “Seveneves” where some characters use Lagrange points to head out of the gravity well and go after a comet without burning insane amounts of propellant. Great book, be awesome to have Scott review it and some of the orbital mechanics used within it.
Read up on your history of the original halo orbit mission, ISEE-3. After it completed its mission, it was sent out on another mission to the comet Giacobini-Zinner in 1985. That mission to the comet was very successful.
What a brilliant way to explain Lagrange points!. Many thanks.
This was a great video Scott! Helps explain things in an easy to understand way
Hey Scott, you should do a video or two on the board game High Frontier. It's a very real projection of the solar system on a fixed board, and makes heavy use of Lagranges.
Really neat, first came across this terminology when listening to the Apollo 13 flight controller tapes on CZcams, that’s when it actually clicked in my head that as a spacecraft rises further and further towards the moon it slows down like a tennis ball at the top of it ahrc before it falls, the aim is for it to have just enough Velocity that it crosses the LeGrange point and starts falling towards the moon. I never totally understood how it all worked until I realised that
There isn't a Earth-Moon LeGrange along the path Apollo 13 would have taken to get there. (Remember, the Apollo craft doesn't fly to the moon in a straight line, but rather a parabolic arc) The Sun-Earth L2 is several times further out from the moon's orbit. What you're referring to is the Apollo craft slowing down as it leaves the earth's sphere of influence and speeding up as it enters the Moon's and starts "falling" back down.
Play Kerbal Space Program and these things just fall into place :-)
@@RockChalk263 fair enough. I just assumed it was the halfway gravity point between two objects
Excellent explanation and illustration of Lagrange points.
Ok this is amazing.. I finally understand! Thank you! The 3D graphic with the gravity wells was my light bulb moment!