Dressage Contraversies: What Is Rolkur?
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- čas přidán 10. 03. 2021
- Rolkur is often a hot topic and a bit of trigger among dressage riders. I have been following a series of dressage contraversy videos on TikTok done by Blonde Dressage. She does a great job of explaining some of the hot topics in the dressage world and why you should care. I reached out to her and asked her to collab on a few videos so Dressage Hub could share these videos with our fans.
You can follow her on TikTok Here: / blondedressage
In this video she talks about rolkur as a training system and how Anky Van Grunsven uses it. She then talks about the issue of blue tongues and how Patrik Kittel has been caught on several occasions with a blue tongue at horse shows. Lastly she covers the difference between rolkur and behind the vertical.
We have featured our on series of horses with Blue Tongues as well and you can watch that video here: • Blue Tongues in Dressa...
The difference between rolkur and behind the vertical might be difficult for a novice dressage rider to understand. This is an important piece to creating an environment with less extreme reactions.
One side of the fence loves to argue it is simply one moment in time, the other side is triggered by any horse that falls behind the vertical for a moment. In order to advocate and create change there needs to be a middle ground in understanding and educating people as to what is right and wrong. In doing so, we hope that you will recognize the problems with training both in Dressage Hub videos and in your own training at home.
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When I first went to Germany to train, (1991-1994) I did not understand the difference between long and low and rollkur. My boss explained to me that it was a false and forced rounding of the neck that has nothing to do with stretching the neck and raising and stretching the back. The horse can't see when he's got his head down there either. Its wrong!
👍👍👍 Good for you for coming to your senses. Some German riders & trainers seem to almost enjoy their cruelty.
I completely agree; it's cruel and inhumane.
I know people are f*****g cruel to their damn horses thinking it is ok!?😤😡😡😡😠
Boy when you get this? It makes such good sense you're dumbfounded. Why could you not have ever known it before? Of course !!
It's a learning curve.
Horses are the ones who suffer, when knowledge is with held.
It takes high dollar ticket horses to teach you. If you cannot afford them? It's a scramble, and frequently the horses suffer.
Why we deprecate our teachers so? I will never understand- in charge of our animals and our children.... they deserve better in a better system.
Horse people struggle so, all of them, to learn.
The fact that they are willing to do this to their horses tells us all we need to know. It’s about them and their egos. They need to win. The horse should always come first. They can’t say no or stop that hurts. It’s put such a blemish on dressage. I can’t defend this and won’t try. It’s ugly and sad.
The last minute was the most important part of this video IMO.
That was really hard to watch...
" Anything forced or misunderstood, can never be beautiful."
Thanks for sharing
@@melindaengstrom9102 we all, to a degree, cross train. And that's what the initial attraction to, and benes w 'rollkeur' seem to be. It's not so bad to take horses into different maneuvers. It can lift spirits. Danger is in thinking force will give you best results. It doesn't. Not with people, horses, or dogs. We use our hands to control our lives, don't we? Next time you're at the barn? Think on it a bit...
And soread your fingers out? And LOOK at your hands.
We use our hands to "open doors"
"leash dogs"
"to ride horses" to "grab something to eat" to
"wash up"
Etc..
Is there anything we don't use our hands to do?
So, by extension, using our hands to force train head sets is not so crazy.
I had someone tell me once, that a horse I was going to ride didn't need much collection (so dont use force?)
Because
☆
"He works through his bridle".
☆
It's like the bridle is hung on an invisible thread from the ceiling. The horse gently puts his head into it. And horse never juggles the bridle. Bridle remains in that exact same position. One rides a horse by NEVER juggling his head. That is classical riding, at it's best. It's a short statement given to me, as a gift, from another horse person. One learns a lot about criminals. Big time crooks - from the horse world. And you learn about yourself and... you learn about learning? Best of all? You'll learn about- horses ♡
I first sent my prospects horses to the continent for training starting in Belgium I was horrified to see Rollkeur was standard practise in that yard. They would strap my horses up in rollkeur and lunge them for up to half an hour before even getting on. This is fear based primarily, trying to break the horses each and every day so they wouldn't fall off. The use of hormones was also standard practise across the board. One horse was bloated from injections of testosterone for competitions then shrivelled to a sweaty skeletal mess in between them. As long as the liver held out all would be fine apparently!!!! It died. This horse was placed in major competitions in that country and next door in the NL. Hormone abuse was widely practised, though.
Forced frame riding on three year olds was completely normal so was beating them with a dressage whip while facing a wall, this was "collection" work. Crank and drop nose bands so tight they caused constant pain and deep marks on the horse faces when tack was removed. Of course I could go on and on, blankets put on heavily sweating horses, no walking them down for cooling, with holding food as punishment. I couldn't have known all this so very unfortunately it all only slowly revealed itself to me, via vets, students and deliberately arriving unannounced. They highly discouraged unannounced visits of course too which I ignored and which should've been an alarm call. This was an ex-Olympic rider who it seemed easily got away with this behaviour. He had the usual cheap labour by way of foreign students working there too, Australians, New Zealanders Americans etc etc all girls. That they could've been influenced by this kind of behaviour was a disgrace. After this that rider/trainer still went on to ride again in the National team at the olympics.
So beyond this my other early introduction to dressage training as a whole in Europe in practise was sadly in the Netherlands, Sjef Janssen.... very very bad start. I stuck to my guns though and I cant say it was easy on my mental health.
I had though luckily grown up with the training methods of Reiner Klimke which I fiercely defended and was my blue print for a good trainer and still is. I wrote away for books and videos did my homework and studied hard before I went to Europe. In short I was in fact armed and prepared as a young man and couldn't be persuaded to the ways of abusive training. I think anyway I question everything and always have done and can see for myself what is animal abuse. Im still seeing it in dressage even at grand prix level. The traversty of the forced piaffe and abuse of spur has got to stop for just one glaring example of sanctioned abuse.
A few things have indeed changed but only recently which is a scandal initself, nose bands for example. But thank goodness for these little changes that they've happened at all. That have taken so very very long to come is shocking to me. More changes will take as long sadly for the horse.
The take away for me as a rider owner is that the horse community cannot be tusted to regulate itself, it seems public pressure is the only way changes ever take place. This as tragic as it is only makes sense to me now, the greater animal (horses included) loving public have the greatest power for change in our sport. The very well known German rider and Olympian, father to the gold winning Olympic rider Zonke Rothenberger, Sven Rothenberger responding to public outing of abuse even called for warm ups not to be public anymore.... yea absolutely incredible. We can be ashamed, when we do ever speak out it's always about other diciplines.
Thank you for sticking to what ...your heart told you was right. It is sometimes the points in our lives where we feel we are risking it all, and we stick to what we know is right... that we find we are stronger than the evil we are fighting!
Well said! It's abhorrent that it's been recommended!
Agree, Reiner Klimke, absolute legend. Truly a brilliant rider and trainer and has passed on his softness to daughter Ingrid, one of my absolute favourite riders 💜
Yes it's the touch, it's people who reconise and understand the sensitive nature of the horse which they adopt and learn from the horse themselves in training and all that they do, becoming one with them and their needs which ultimately become their own needs too, a happy horse. if the horse is not happy how can we be happy until the horse is. Personaly I just don't understand any other kind of relationship with a horse. Not all horses are brilliant, so what, we need to be realistic too, force is never an option and there are just no short cuts. @@rhythmandblues_alibi
Just pointing out also that anyone that uses a draw rein with out the support of a direct rein is using hyperflexion in their training. I see it done so often and people think its fine, its not.
👏👏👏👍
Agree 🙌
If a horse has a really tight spot you can use a bit of over flexion, or extra bending to help the horse loosen up that muscle for a moment. However, I don't see any benefit to asking this of a horse for more than a few seconds at a time. We might do a stretch of our shoulder behind our head to loosen a tight spot, but we would not do a weight lifting workout in this position. Extra stretch can help your horse to loosen up, but he should never be asked to work in this position. That's just despicable.
I am sorry but I disagree with you and especially your example. When you you put your own arm behind your head to stretch your shoulder muscles, you are in control and can feel if it pains you and how much. If you go to the point of pain and beyond, it is counterproductive and actually pretty backwards thinking in the healing department. Physical Therapists are masters in bringing total function back and restoring someone's maximum range of motion back even to a broken shoulder without causing undo pain. I know, because this was me. I literally broke a 1" X 4" piece off the spinal side, the long side of the basic triangular shape shoulder bone you can feel and see on your back. This repositioning of a piece of bone where it doesn't belong injures both the tendons and ligaments that hold the whole apparatus of the shoulder joint. What does this have to do with this discussion? Any forced bending or stretching may cause the horse pain, be it the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the neck, never mind in the beginning of the back at the withers and beyond, since it's all interconnected with the longisamus dorsi the runs down the back. It's not like you are only effecting the neck. You are also effecting vision and breathing. And how does a horse communicate this to you? The horse tells you with resistance, teeth grinding, blue tongues andbloody mouths. They also spook a lot and become very, very anxious. If any of you have had a feeling of suffocating from a pillow over your face or being held under water to the point that you were running out of air, you know the panic that sets in. This is very different from happily chewing on the bit,and why flash nosebands are adjusted in a certain way, so that a horse can take a sugar or in my horse's case a peppermint and chew it happily, but not to tie the mouth shut and can't evade or avoid the hands, good, bad, or evil.And the throat latch is to be rather loose and is technically there so if you part company with your horse you don't pull the bridle off and have no way to catch the dreaded " Loose Horse" scenario at a farm or show. If you want to loosen or stretch your horses neck, try massaging, and then stretches from the ground before even getting on your horse. It's much kinder and quite enjoyable for the horse. The problem is that people want to bring horses up the levels quickly. And the big rider/ trainer wants to get as many horses to the Grand Prix quickly both for their own glorification and to make the owners paying the bills, who in most cases know just enough to make them a bit pushy ( being generous here ) and wanting faster results too. The horse doesn't enter into their equation, except for them owning or so- and-so training/riding to brag about. I know that I am about to sound like an old fart, and I am. I began with Dressage in the early 80's with my then 6 year old 17.2 Hanoverian gelding. There and then the Training Scale was the blueprint for bringing horses up through the levels to International level. It was laid out the way it was for reasons that had been used for about 80 years or more. Throughness, suppleness, tempo and strengthening of the muscles and mind of the horse were paramount, but unfortunately for today's faced paced lives, this took time, and people don't and didn't want to take the time and develop the horses carefully. That's when a lot of these " training styles " got going, and IMO they are cruel shortcuts and destroy the minds and then the bodies, but bring fast glory and fairly immediate glory to rider,then horse. If anyone wants examples to prove this point, just look up Totilas or how quickly Anky brought Salinero, a problem child, to International Grand Prix for proof. Of course my Grand Prix partner and I never came close to the Olympics, but after retiring at 15 from EPM, a parasite that causes neurological issues, he became Grandpa to all the weanlings, taught them kindly to be good horses, and died of colic at the age of 28 1/2 years old in January up North here in the Winter Wonderland. To the day he died he maintained his beautiful Dressage physique. Sorry, sort of, for my long tutorial. Obviously, what's going on is a major issue with me. 🤷♀️😥
@@jinxkrug7000 not every stretch has to be tantamount to pain. and looks like you're responding not to what was actually said in the comment above, but to some imaginary scenario in which a hypothetical horse is subjected to pain.
I am disappointed in Patrik Kittel's way, he is an olimpic rider!😕😥 horses need more respect!
He hasn't changed this time either. His Tokyo horse has been rollkured. The test was awful to watch and the final halt was a dead giveaway. I could cry for these poor abused creatures 😢
This is so good for some people to understand, especially the example of how a dropped head SHOULD look vs how it shouldn’t. The horses I ride both drop their heads into a proper relaxed position that’s comfortable for the horses and me to be in. Having their heads forced to be lowered like that is awful and I can’t believe people call it a “system”
Its ppl copying "the picture"... and while it can be trained in slowly but surely? Many dont know how to achieve the look w.out use of force.
Things were insane back in the 70s w abuse in horses. It's still here. It's just such an expensive love. So much money. And so much pressure- goes right along w it, too.
Good video, the most important thing is that people learn that behind the vertical is not always rollkur or wrong. Wrong is when riders force the horse with their hands in statistic postures even when they are on the vertical. That's abuse too.
I dont think this video honestly addresses the difference between behind the vertical and rolkeur, subsequent videos or earlier ones might. At least it doesn't illustrate the difference. A horse can of course come behind the vertical momentarily in certain movements like pirouette when the head comes up, this is the horse trying to find balance when sitting on its haunches. A horses best balance is found naturally when its head is just in front of the vertical however this position changes momentarily if the whole neck and weight is shifted backwards. So absolutely always in front of the vertical is not easy to achieve. Horses can learn to find the balance sitting with their heads up so we are tasked to help it with that with targeted sympathetic training methods. Helping it prepare for that balance going into the movement so it builds the confidence to try.
Riding behind the vertical might not always be rollkur, but it is wrong. Many dressage riders ride "Behind the Bit", which is when a rider rides a horse's face behind the vertical plane, which causes their neck vertebrae to be compressed. The horse's strides become uneven, causing them to take shorter steps with their hind legs and bigger ones with their front legs, which make them look like they're goose-stepping. Riding a horse constantly like this causes a bulging, over-development of the muscles along the top of the neck. The parotid glands become enlarged and permanently protrude.
Rollkur and behind the vertical r both wrong and inhumane ways of training.
It shouldn't be done in any kind of way. A horse is not a dress up toy, that people should shape into some shape that they mistakenly thought was fancy looking.
I love dressage but when I see this it makes me question why surely this is not the correct way to train a horse 🙁
I always look at the horses back just behind the saddle if they are trained classically then their back will be straight with the hindquarters under and lots of flexion and lift in the hocks.
A rollkured horses back will look dipped and weak with hindquarters trailing behind and stiff hocks that can't bend and not even tracking up. It astounds me how something so wrong can be given good marks. Look at poor Totilas 😢
It must be torture every time they are ridden
Agree. The judges must be blind to reward such hollowing.
On Fresian Horses youtube she is demonstrating how to tie the Rolkur ropes on their young horse...the stable is in Netherlands
Could I have the link? That’s aweful
There are moments of emergency or when you are trying to stop a horse or keep it slow down such as on the racetrack that horses may be in that position but it does not preferred. There is no doubt in my mind that rollkur is cruel and causes damage to the horse both physically and emotionally. A lot of people don't see what goes on behind the scenes of a training on some dressage horses and other Performance Horses as well. People with a lot of money just burn horses up and go get another one and that usually have very nice horses with a lot of talent. I would rather see a mud fence that is ridden correctly, taking much time and patience to instruct and strengthen the horse. I have no doubt but these people are good writers I just wonder where their hearts are? Patience
Fully agree- there is one very popular reining “trainer” who is destroying his horses and initiating hundreds to do the same with his slick “ Method” videos. (C.A.) it makes me sick to see what he’s doing, and to see all of the starry eyed followers making their horses into dead eyed automatons
@@MBrusaZappellini omg hahaha! Are you talking about Clinton Anderson!? Hahaha I HATE HIM lmao
Twinsiesss we can both agree that his method is frigging terrible. All his horses no longer have any personality!
@@naomilandry7816 (biting my tongue here) ding ding ding
@@MBrusaZappellini LOLLLL I could rant about him for hours 😂😂😂😂😂
I wonder the same thing about those who support the practice of infant male circumcision.
Us Anky needs to inform herself about the studies that have been conducted regarding the Rollkur. I'm a retired professional and I am ashamed of the training methods being applied today ! ! ! The old masters are turning in their graves ! ! ! !
Yah it was absolutely horrifying to see how when the lid was blown on rollkuur the top Dutch riders involved tried to minimise damage by claiming it was a valid training system when done "responsibly". This video of Van Grunsven graphically illustrates the blatant attempt at damage control gone wrong. After all Gold medals, public adoration, sponsorships and National pride were involved and in peril. The truly terrible thing is a large part of the Dutch horse fans and public fell for it. Still those same riders are giving public clinics and have huge numbers of admirers and fans, even though the success they've achieved and accrued was based on abuse. Even today you have riders there claiming publicly they are neither for nor against that it's a personal choice rather than the act of abuse that it is. Training methods in that country are still in many peoples opinions seriously worrying. In my opinion the results are apparent, and speak for themselves. You still see those riders receiving thunderous applause as horses tear down the diagonal hollow backed, neck vertical, back legs trailing like some sort of Tennessee walking horse or American saddler. No the issue hasn't truly gone away. Just recently a very well known 'Equestrian' that has for some years adopted the Netherlands as their home, Utuber and sometime model was claiming they couldn't condemn the practise as they didn't understand it, what they were in fact saying given the amount of info on the subject available is that their and others cognitive dissonance wont allow them to understand. See no evil hear no evil.....in denial even today.
I’m Dutch but I totally agree with you. It’s horrible to see those top riders getting all that fame while abusing their horse. I don’t agree (like many other Dutch riders) with the methods that Anky van Grunsven use for her horses..😞
BINGO! Spot On 👍👍👍
@@colijnwenting1540 - 😘😘😘 from the US
That particular utuber is sadly misinformed about basic horsemanship and riding skills. He has a lot of modeling $$$, sponsors, and followers, and has collected a barn full of oversized, green PRE stallions. He thinks they will somehow get him to the Grand Prix dressage level, but he can't even ride a basic test. SMH.
@@eh3477 Whatever one may personaly think of him, it was just a graphic example of the fall out of how the issue of rollkeur was handled in the the Netherlands. How it is still seen as a result by younger riders there. I think they may be dealing in horses, though given the problems they've had with their own that they've bought in I'm not so sure how much confidence I would have in their ability to find good horses. It's a Dutch thing horse dealing, it seems to come with the territory there anyway. Must of rubbed off on him. Whatever we think of dealers I guess as a buyer it's the horse in question that's important not the ex-modeling career of the seller, right!?
Simply, rollkur is wrong. 😡
Thank you for calling this out by its right name!
Disgusting and cruel .
Rolkur has no place in any way shape or form in training. A horse will naturally bring him/herself up into a collected position only when and only when the hindquarters are properly engaged.
One quote will sum up my opinion on this video "If you think that the soup is cold, so put your hand into it"
The thing is, it's way easier to hold a horse behind the vertical, than it is to support a horse in carriage (I think that's how it's written)
When the horse is in a self carrying, or in the basic of learning this, it needs support, which means that your hands has the be constantly in motion, to help the horse, to give and take, so it doesn't lose contact or are being restricted from moving forward.
While when you keep a horse behind the vertical, it's easy, it's easy for the horse, as it doesn't have to "work", it can just hang in your hands, and not engage through its body.
It's easy for the rider, as it's easy to hold the horses head up in that position, it looks good from the saddle, nice round neck. And the horse doesn't really fight you.
It's how you tell if a rider has the 'feel' or not..
A rider who feels like it is "right" because it's easy in their hands. Because they look at the horses neck to figure out if it's "on the bit".
Or the rider who rides through the horses body, and doesn't focus on the head or neck, but if it is stepping under with its backfeet and if it's lifting in the back..
Because you can definitely FEEL the difference, when a horse tucks its butt in and the back comes up...
It's like you suddenly lift 10 cm up in the air....
It's something that has to come from the horse, it can never be forced, only be guided.
And as the horse gets stronger, it is something it will often choose, and that's when you have self carriage..
That's when you can drop one or even both reins, and the horse will continue working in the right way.
What many people do forget, is that it's really difficult and restraining in the beginning, but some will forget that they're still in the learning process, and push it to far, it needs to be given several breaks/stretches during the session.
My boss/trainer would have bonked my in the head if I had one of her horses in this position. She was an FEI rider, and her horses were some of the softest, most loose, and relaxed horses I've ever ridden, and consistent winners.
In respect to the blue tongue incident, maybe other riders need to step up and say something. If a judge checks the bits, why can't they have a judge watching the warm up ring? They could also have someone inconspicuously roaming around to see what's happening at a show. When abusers think no one is watching (I'm talking about serious violations). I was at a show in Lake Placid many years ago and saw McClain Ward off in a schooling arena out of the public eye. I went over just to check out the training & was appalled at what I saw. Every time this horse jumped they smacked it on the belly with a metal rod; even when the horse didn't touch the rail! It was so bad I could hear the smack long before I had gotten close enough to see what was going on. The even scarier thought is he is not the only one who does it. This supposedly encourages the horse to not want to touch a rail. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree since his dad was sent to jail over horse abuse. This is why action must be taken. It just seems to continue and worsen because those in authority REFUSE to do anything about it. It's also unfair to those who do it right.
Sadly most stewards and judges don't care. If you look at Epona TV no one even batted an eye at the horrible riders. The stewards barely even checked the nosebands and when they were supertight they didn't really care.
@@Julia-mi2ij Then they need to report it to FEI officials. Not necessarily the one at the show but more of the leadership. The more we see and say something they may actually start cracking down on these judges.
For instance I started following the official FEI channel. They posted a happy birthday to her . Most were calling her the queen. Someone left a message to them that Charlotte DuJardin was actually the queen, which got a ❤ from FEI . I wrote an " amen " to that and they left a ❤ on mine as well.
I also left quite a rebuke on there as well as to the rollkur training . It got 10 👍. So people are seeing it. Just think if everyone got on there and left comments and also left information about their experiences at shows. If we want to help these horses, then we need to be their voices. But the FEI needs to hear it because judges are ignoring it. So they need to start leaning on these judge's for starters.
@@janets6474 Sadly the people at the top of FEI don't care. They only "banned" rollkur due to extreme pressure from the public, yet still left a huge loop hole that makes it basically allowed. When a FEI judge said that some riders used methods that are against the rules the judge got banned instead of the riders. I've been harassed by mainly GLOCK lovers for even pointing out when Edward Gal rode Total US severly behind the vertical(and yes I did keep on commenting that just because I don't give two fucks about if they call me a shit rider or whichever boring insult they come up with). The only thing that could spark an uproar again is if warmup footage got leaked again, preferably of someone like Gal, Werth, Nilshagen, Scholtens, Minderhoud or Kittel because they're all quite highly ranked and some have been in previous controversies. The only issue is the fact that usually people aren't allowed to film or photograph the warmup and most people don't accept pointing out things like a trailing hind, BTV or a hollow back as signs of potential rollkur.
Would very much recommend checking Epona TV as they catch some pretty nasty things. Quite sure they talk about being in contact with the FEI in one of their Falsterbo 2017 videos but I don't remember and have a tendency to mix things up.
I always thought dressage was so elegant and graceful
Rolkur = Encouraging hyperflexion for prolonged periods of times, especially while riding an advanced horse who has the physical stamina to carry itself correctly while in the ring.
A horse that carries itself properly with a rounded topline will naturally lower its head. Some breeds find collection a lot easier than others and, in the same line of thought, some horses have a conformation that better suits a collected way of carrying itself while being ridden.
Absolutely agreed.
I can't believe what I'm even seeing and hearing here.
The same happened with my pony before i Got here and i fout that i could Troest her she sippet my pony so hard and kiking and graping her main this makes me happy to se that you say a Word for this this makes me Cry
If the Spanish Riding School doesn't do it then no one should. Thank you for this, especially the last few minutes.
You really judged rollkur just by the fact SRS doesn't use it?
@@marusiaradimiow7811 Yes. The greatest riders of dressage and high school movements in the world, whose horses live long, healthy lives and seem to actually enjoy their work seems to be a good recommendation to not use rollkur or anything like it.
@Felicia Dale Firstly, who said they are the greatest? Was there any judge committee? Secondly, many of their horses works not really correctly, moves stiff and looks not really relaxed. Honestly I dislike watching their videos. And finally, are you really sure that horses doing high level dressage elements and tricks like for example capriole are healthier, and have healthier joints than high level dressage horses? If I were you I wouldn't be that sure
@@marusiaradimiow7811 I don't know from personal experience that the SRS is the very best, but they are often cited as experts by other experts. One would think that in 450 years of history the school would have learned a thing or two about this breed and how best to work with them. That is not always true of institutions, of course, but it is something to consider.
I also don't know from personal experience that their horses are healthy- but they do seem to live long lives and do their work well into their teens if not longer. Edit: A quick google shows a site claiming that they live and work into their twenties or even thirties. Horses can't do this if their work is damaging to their joints, minds, etc. This may or may not be true- but it's repeated in Wikipedia and while that's not always a perfect source of information it's nice to see that corroborated. Horses who are forced to do work beyond their abilities do not do so well physically or emotionally. Racing horses are a good example of this.
As I said above, I'm not an expert by any means in horses, dressage or the high school movements. I can, however, often tell when a horse is unhappy, uncomfortable, anxious or otherwise not doing well emotionally. But, I will look again at some of the videos available for the stiffness you mention. It's totally possible that I've missed it.
@@randomvielleuse527 As you said it all SEEMS to be like that. It's really not the best idea to judge training tehniques like this...
Sadly it happens in every sport. Someone with influence gets an idea and passes it off as the newest thing. And unfortunately those who want to win feel pressured to follow. After all sports arent cheap.
Usually I find most of the newest fads are due to laziness or because the horse just isn't capable of doing the desired outcome. So shortcuts or extreme measures are taken. It's sad and only corrected if enough people say no.
It's about TIME!
`only do it when you are a really good rider`
I don't know anything about riding wish I did. Hope to c more videos for the novice rider who rides just for the love of it ty
You can find them by playlist
You can just look at the horse to know he is uncomfortable. It is animal cruelty.
Absolutely shocking
I cannot understand that Ankie kept on winning 😔 And that people adore her riding 😔
2:41 I’m not great rider, but I can see a lot wrong with that still photo.
In my world - long deep and round and rollkur is not the same - long and deep, my horses have their nose almost in the dirt.... not in their chest. It is like saying extended trot and passage is the same thing just because they both stem from the same 2 beat rhythm
Sadly Anky claimed the name LDR for rollkur to glorify it. Long Deep and Round was basically long and low for me before I got covid and decided to binge watch every dressage video ever
@@Julia-mi2ij I believe Anky also used the term in order to sanitize their rolkur methods. They continued the same harmful methods, just started calling them "LDR". But nothing changed. Last time I saw her, she was riding reining horses, which were carrying their noses well below their knees. So is that an improvement?!
You can actually pick apart many disciples as the AQHA western pleasure horses dragging their nose on the ground, the problem comes from specialties within the breed. It is not Good enough to be the average all around horse any more. Youth can't just take one horse and do several different classes any more except at the local shows and 4H. It has happened in just about every "popular" breed.
This is definitely abuse, these disgusting people want to win at no cost to the horse. Sick and where is horse welfare.
When I am learning an art or a craft I study the people with success not the people who critique them without their own success..🤷♂️.
I always say if you don't like it then you must go win and show how to.do it better. Surely if the training system you use is good the horse will preform better and appear in a better frame..🤷♂️
I found it interesting how you never mentioned the welfare of the horse only about winning
When I learn an art or a craft I study those that are good at it. How do I know they are good? Because I also study those whose egos have got the better of them. Being great and being good are two very different things. Understanding this is the key. It is dangerous not to question greatness. Never assume. One must be skeptical in the pursuit of the truth.
@@sarahwagland1559 don't explain. He will never understand. Not with horses and never with dogs. 😉
So you only care about winning? You think riding is only about you and how many medals you can win? Are you really that selfish?
Perhaps you'll need to clarify your definition of success. And study the history of really problematic judging and abuse in the horse show world: the Big Lick, peanut rolling western horses, modern hunters appearing tranquilized, and current popular competitive vs classical dressage. Abuse and injuries are well known in each of these disciplines, and some of the worst abusers are winning competitions. Only minimal efforts made by authorities to curb the abuse. And there's a lot of of $$$ to be made by trainers and breeders. At least some dressage judges are now rewarding riders who have more healthy training methods, translated into a less flashy but more biomechanically correct and happy performance.
I hear this the first time today! But it klicks! I am sorry :(
i think rollkur should be forbidden
👍🏼
OK. Try tucking your chin tightly against your upper chest, then doing let's say, karate forms or ballroom dancing. How well balanced and relaxed would you be?
“Only if you are a very good and experienced rider”. The real problem is, a lot of riders think they are 😢 I once got adviced to ride my horse like this(when I was a professional equestrian) I refused. One of the main reasons for quitting the sport is because the higher up you go, the more unfriendly it becomes to the horse. Doesn’t matter if it’s horse racing, show jumping, dressage, for 99% it’s all about money and reputation at the top, no thnx.
Believe me. I KNOW THAT. I LIVE THIS EVERY SINGLE DAY. The Nerve pains & symptoms are ENORMOUS & horrific.. 98% of Doctors don't even "get" it. Thankfully, "Moriah" (the horse involved) seems to seems to be fine. Not sure about that, though. Further - I know that most don't survive this type of injury. At the LEAST - most are paralyzed. I am the "Zebra."
How could anybody believe in this "system" bs?
Like horse is literally falling on front and hind is shut off from any power, so literally opposite to what dressage should be
I come from place that treats rollkur as highest form of collection and as best way to ride horse at home. And those poor horses are miserable after they retire after their 15th birthday.
I retrained such ex rolled (I will use it as short term) dressage horse
In reality he was super weak, giving him long rein would result in tripping, falling, anxiety. He had no strength in the back and would push himself from front. He would roll himself up and bite his chest out of frustration and pain. Long term rolling caused damage to the poll and back. It took me 3 months of massages and stretching (without rider) to get him pain free. And then it took another 3 months to cure deepest roots of his anxiety
When somebody can actually see difference between rollkur and mistake then I cant understand how is this possible to even defend rollkur
That is truly a cruel way to ride any horse
Can you compete in dressage without any bend in the horses head, allowing it to just be normal, and without a bite thing in its mouth? Sorry, I don’t ride, would like to, because of my extra poundage I carry(weight). Maybe someday. No competitions just for fun.
Dressage is very misunderstood. It's all about the beauty of the horse not of all the equipment used on it. A true dressage rider is a one who can ask their horse for anything without even using reins ..a one who respects his partner..a one who's in harmony with their friend not in a fight
There's no respect at pointing a sharp blade at a prisoner to make him move, offer him kindness and you'll achieve anything
*I'm also a dressage rider
Mein GOTT! Das ist so graussam!
disguisting
I don't know much about it, but I'm doing a project on horse abuse and am coming down heavily on this method. All I know is it's an absolutely inhumane, disgusting method and you gain nothing from it. Why do people do this?
To simplify, they get quicker results this way.
Rollkur is horrible. It’s very bad for the horse’s neck muscles and mouth. Disgusting and unnatural.
The effects of hyperflexion does damage to the entire topline of the horse, not just the neck. It can create bony growths in the channel at the pole where the nuchal ligament is, can cut off blood supply to the brain and can do irreversible damage to the back and croup. All have been documented by veterinarians.
If there's any doubt that rolkur is an evil faddish invention you only have to look at what it did to the glorious Moorlands Totilas when he changed hands - he turned from a confident proud foot-perfect stallion with self-carriage and balance into a tail-thrashing wreck held together by shitty double bits and crank noseband who not only lost his mojo but any real willingness to comply. Run free, Toto, in the Fields of Elysium. And may the Old Masters of dressage send their wisdom and kindness into the hearts of these modern abusers.
Well, he was being trained in rolkur long before he was sold to the German group. And his known injuries were likely developed over time. His movements, while under Gal, were far from perfect and likely set the stage for his later injuries. His poor neck carriage, front leg "paddling", and disengaged hindquarters were easily visible and were the result of training while he was with Gal.
Totilas has been developed in Rollkur cruelty. Gal is a typical Rollkur Rider. Look at Gribaldi and all the other wrecks Gal has trained.
I still don't know what rolkur is. I only know that it's bad... Sidenote - not an equestrian, just like watching beautiful horses.
Shocking. FEI what are you doing! 😡
The horse hitting the back of his mouth to his chest is totally out of line and way over.
We will be judged by how we treat animals.
How does that even look good???
It creates an artifical front that is very attractive to some people. Drops the back and hind completly, but for the untrained eye it can look natural.
An evil device for horses. Disgusting behavior. Never use this trash should be banned. It is not a training tool it's foul .
This makes me absolutely angry and hurts my heart to see. Those who would do this to a horse a horrible human beings.
The use of the rollkur has been prohibited and sanctioned by the FEI since February 2010. You are not really up to date.
Also, thank you for blocking me on tiktok, it's a huge confession of your inability to discuss and get out of your way of thinking. Thank you for proving me right.
Rollkur Riding is practicing since 40 years. Nicole Uphoff has began with this horrible practice, Werth was continuing, and Grunsven has established a system. Called Low Deep Round.
Every competition rider in Modern Dressage uses LDR and other cruel exercises. They are just a handful riders like Klimke or Uta Gräf who refuse riding with cruelty.
The majority aren't able sitting on a horse without pulling on a curb bit. 🤣
Poor horses
Blablablablablabla😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢
This is SO WRONG !!!!!! No excuses of any kind allowed !!!! Maître Nuno Oliveira must be sreaming in his tomb !!!!!!!!
All of these horses look so heavy in the hands and that's not the goal. I don't see one ounce of suppleness in any of these horses.🤦
Some people should never sit on a horse, because they are evil pure and simple....
I have no other words than, now I'm nauseous.
it is cruelty every inch of the way
😞🤬
It looks idiotic and, YES, it is cruel.
R: Ok big boy, ya ready? We got a big show to put on”
🐴H: *whinnies as he grimaces* yeah right dodo
R. Geez Boy, what was that? Did you forget that 2m jump was 3rd not the #4 turn & jump?
😡🐴H: Jumps? What jumps? What about the
flying-leap change and half pass? *Whinnies😡 & snorts😤*
R: Damn, WTH is wrong with you?
🤪🐴H: Maybe IF I had a rider w/the majority of their brain functioning and knew the basics💯% of a horse’s needs, plus knew the majority (100%) of what their discipline(s) includes and then can relay this to their horse w/o whips, spurs, metal nose bands covered by leather to the dreaded rolkur training bcuz these riders lack the mental & physical bond w/their horse(s).
🐴 H: Yo rider!?! *big head nod* ya know if I could see in front of me a little more vs just seeing my hooves & the arena sand…
I just may be able to perform better. Whatcha think, rider?
😂🐎😂
These people need to have t tier honors stripped from them and the horse
No! in my opinion this is descusting! Its cruel and un natural
Time to end the use of horses like this...especially at the Olympics. Treating horses like this is filthy, wrong, cruel and seriously STUPID!!!!!! Animal abusers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have permission to abuse, torture or even kill Horse without single consequence and your arguments are worth no broken penny spare me then and save for those halfbrain heartless cavemen (riders, spectators, fans and sponsors). You fei are absolute sadist allowing mistreating for enterteinment such a dedicated and lovely Animal. For thousands of years of hard work and war campaigns now is time to abuse them just for fun. Shame on you all!!
I would be embarrassed saying it was just a moment in time as she does here. What a poor rationalization. What are they all moments in time? How many times have I heard that? This is rolkur and a minute is too long. That black tongue hanging out should be enough to stop that ride. It is abuse I agree.
Anyone else think this is an embarrassment to the dressage industry? Makes everyone think that horse riding is a bad thing.
They say , the riders, that they want their horses to look like this. A horses natural carriage does NOT look like this. These riders should not be allowed near a horse. The judges should not a,llow a horse into a ring with this enforced, unnatural gait.
It is very sad to see these horses subjected to such extremes…the riders who indulge in such practice should be immediately eliminated. Spurs & curb bits should be banned
Rollkur is horse abuse❗️
How disgusting, if you can't control your horse without the roll kur, your not a good rider 😅😅😅😅😢😢😢😢
For me it is not animal cruelty. Anky Van Grunsven is a topreiter and Bonfire was 30 years old when he passed away and Salinero is now 28. No more words needed.
I actually think it's worse now. At least she owned that she did it. Now the top riders hide it and bully anybody who doesn't agree. Judges, td's and media
That's nonsense. If someone blinded you, tortured you for a long time, and then you lived for, or longer than, a person's average life expectancy. Is this fine?
So you are going to ignore how much stress rollkur has been shown to cause in countless studies just because Ankys horses lived an average lifespan? 🤔
I must say that the footage of anky is very old and I know that today she does not train this way anny more.
Caroline Ebert:Worst comment. 👎
This needs to be stopped...all judges,that allow this cruelty and contestants that do this to an animal needs to be arrested and charged with animal abuse..period...you are hurting this horse just for you to look spectacular in a ring...you are the problem..wake up authorities...arrest these idiots..and the judges that allow this to continue..they might as well be choking the crap out of the horse, and the law is not doing anything about it...this unexceptable..stop this torture immediately.......