not even that random 9-year-old who either does a terrible speedhack + noclip run or literally just plays a CZcams showcase wants to play it edit: slight grammar correction
We played this level in practice mode for a video. We've done this with many top levels before but this is the ONLY one where we didn't finish. It's genuinely so painful. Many crazy hitboxes. Congrats to Zoink for putting up with this, but gosh darn.
Well, speaking of difficulty, I'm sure the last 2 categories of gddp that have possible levels, deserve a new difficulty. Recently, DeCody (his hardest is Bloodlust) tried Slaughterhouse wave and he failed the practice completely. This literally shows how huge is the difference between Bloodlust and top 10.
Avernus is perfectly fine. I think people are extremely whiny cause fixed hot boxes are perfectly fine and this is just people looking for reasons to hate main list. This level is great. The deco is fine there may be one small section with bad deco but the gameplay is fine and people need to stop being so whiny. Also this dudes opinions aren’t to good on the level. He called one of the best parts with “1.0”? Gross which is just confusing avernus is fine as is.
I watched the entire video, and I'm impressed with the way you explained the controversy about Avernus which made me understand more about it. This is an underrated channel and I'll definitely be following your growth. Keep up the fantastic work!
The art of the blade was made in only a week for a competition that suggested the levels made for it should be hard. The decoration is pretty good, the theme is amazing and I personally like the gimmicks. I do not think that The Art Of The Blade is worse than Avernus
I think the way the memory gimmick is woven in can be really frustrating, with it involving literal pixels and requiring a lot of time to work out. Of course, in the context of the competition this makes it really good, but as a level outside of that it can be infuriating.
It's hated because you have to look at random things in the level to beat it, and they're randomized so you can't memorize them, and depending on those random factors the first memory part changes.
hello i wanna say that the creator did NOT force me to make it top 2. he wanted it just top 10 or atleast harder then the golden. if you wanna blame all the bad gameplay blame me bruh 💀💀💀. also all the buffing i did wasn’t just fixed hitboxes lul obv. there are like ~15 spikes which have fixed hitboxes (i think idk i’m tryna remember which have them) everything else makes sense also you should have probably talked about the bad optimization at some of the parts
thanks for clarifying. honestly it takes guts to basically tell people to blame yourself for something like this. mad respect to you for at least taking the criticism and know i ofc respect you for it. as much as i dont like the level this situation shouldn't only be blamed on you.
Man this level would have been hella popular if they just didn't make it top 5, I'm glad people are over this "make the level as hard as possible trend," cuz they just kinda suck. I wouldn't call this level easy to make tho, and I do think the decoration looks good, if not decent for the most part
Idk if people realize but every single top 10 was made to be top 10, or else it simply wouldn't be a top 10, the truth is the harder the level and the lower it's position on the demonlist, the more attention, even levels that the entire community consider good like limbo, yes they're good, but it was made to be a top 10? So does that make it bad? No, not at all
@@cclixgd_gd4905 if the level wouldnt be memorable as an extended list, its probably bad. limbo would most definitely be memorable, and also this is beside the point but i believe it was just made to be the hardest memory level in the game.
@@antiprime4665 I completly agree, but the mod team and robtop dont seem to. if you want to get something rated you have to make it look good, even if the gameplay is dogshit
@@NothingIsScary gameplay has never been factored into account of rating a level before and even deco is on a questionable standpoint when you look at the utter chaos of rating standards between some levels
@@baconboy69 It's actually sad that crappy gameplay always gets rated just because of their deco and levels should be judged by gameplay too. This is why I just create my own levels because I can make my own gameplay that is fun to me, with no judgement. (I wrote a comment on a GD level saying that Rob only relies on deco for levels and it was my most liked.)
It's all a real shame since thanks to Avernus I got to know Dark Dragon Fire (wasn't around when Infernal Abyss was popular), and it is already my favorite F-777 song; so the idea of having a top 2 (or even proably top 1) with such an amazing, atmospheric song was very appealing to me. I hope some day Dark Dragon Fire is made justice, not necessarily with a top 5 (especially with the contenders right now), but the way LIMBO makes justice to Isolation, or Kyouki to Crazy.
infernal abyss used to do that but now looking back it kinda sucks... really it’s quite sad that avernus had so much potential but lost it for multiple reasons
Most of the problems other than deco is mostly Zoink's fault, he buffed it to try and make it barely humanly possible, and making it extremely unfun to play in the process, so it makes sense why the level is controversial and why no one wants to play it.
@@megadubstepxd9462 True, I have seen a lot of accusations towards Zoink and in my opinion, it is most likely an innocent until proven guilty situation because it's hard to actually prove he hacked.
@@ncprism_ yeah especially considering it took so long for spaceuk to be caught while using an outdated method, it's impossible to catch someone using the newest method.
This is why i dont like to end up decorating like this. I would just make it less decorated, to prevent all the drama, make it less laggy and so on. Edit: thanks for 100 likes! I should really do low object levels!
Also by the way, Avernus’ optimization is absolutely horrible. To me, it’s probably the WORST optimization of all fucking time, I get about 100 FPS at times 💀💀💀
Before this video I really didn’t know why people really hated the level as I thought that it was a perfectly normal level until you made this masterpiece.Easy to understand and gets to the point well.Your going to be my go-to creator to understand a controversy in the GD community.
I actually think that the deco is good enough for a star rate. I mean if you go and play a lot of recently rated levels many of them won't be particularly amazing deco wise and maybe not too difficult to create either. (Speaking of that I think the difficulty of creating something shouldn't matter at all, just how the final product looks). I think the issue is rate standards are too high for demons and extreme demons for some reason.
Completely disagree with gameplay not being needed as a factor for rateworthiness; you can’t have rated levels with awful gameplay filling up the servers
Anyone remember that creator contest for this that happened a while before Avernus was released? I remember the winning part, which isn't in here. Am I missing something from the whole CC thing or did everyone just forget about it?
I think Avernus is definitely feature worthy based on DECORATION ALONE. I personally think being able to make rate worthy decoration should be something that everyone can do (by that I mean you really only need to know how certain blocks look together and color theory). That was and still kinda is the case now, and I think Avernus accomplishes my personal definition of having rate worthy decoration. Why I said that it was feature worthy is because it not only accomplished rate worthy deco status, but it adds upon that by creating its own decoration with its own ideas (the dragon art, the end screen art and the cube section before that, custom lava, utilizes movement effectively, etc.)
Around 6:30 you talked about how deco is really easy. It isn't just about being able to tell what blocks are used. If you tried to make something like Avernus, you couldn't. It isn't about placing textures. It's about the part as a WHOLE looking cohesive and nicely structured and colored, and to do that you need to adjust every bit of all the objects you're using to make them look good. Just because you can place a few blocks, doesn't mean you can make the entirety of a part. Also, the wave at 7:10 looks horrible imo xD
The only thing faithful to the Golden that Avernus has is that it was also hyped as the new top 1 and didn't get top 1, jokes aside from what I heard the main reason why it got rated is because Rob rates levels that have a chance of being top 1 or have some sort of historical value to the community, this is why levels like Arcturus and Silent Clubstep are even rated in the first place, I do think Avernus can be harder than Acheron, but the only reason why it wasn't placed at the top 1 spot was for the sake of the sanity of the top players, there is much more pressure and expectations in a top player beating a top 1 rather than a top 2, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the top players would quit if Avernus did indeed get top 1, but that's just my speculation
i have to agree with your statement that if it were extended list that it could actually be really fun for a lot of people, since it being extended list would not only make it more accessible but also be more forgiving and not make you rip your eyeballs out, as well as being a different wave themed level than nine circles levels anyway very good video
honestly, I agree with most of what you said, I liked that you didn't like the deco, I can agree with that, Bli, CuLuC, and potentially CherryTeam could blow them out of the water, and i do agree with what you said about it having a nerfdate, but if this level wants to retain a good and appealing top 1, naturally make it better, buy making tighter corridors and other buffs that could be done, possibly lengthening the level may be another way, but Pocke just "Tiny Timmied" the level to pieces by spamming fixed hitboxes, sure, fixed hitboxes are a gimmick in top 1s, Tartarus has itself a fixed hitbox straightfly section, but excessively spamming fixed hitboxes isn't fun. I do agree with you that the deco is poorly done to a point where its just a generic 2.1 hell-themed level, but they could do an Endlevel and have CuLuC or Bli do a houseflipper like thing and turn a very bad level that's very controversial into a masterpiece...maybe?
Also avernus is HORRIBLY UNOPTIMIZED and is basically impossible to optimize as each part is on a separate layer which basically means that every object is on the same layer
Zoink did the fixed hitboxes on the level, making it way worse than it originally was. Now i'm looking for evidence if zoink cheated in any demonlist completions or not.
I think it’s unfair that one of the reasons why Avernus is hated is because of it’s creator I think we should separate the ‘art from the artist’ and dislike the level because of it garbage gameplay
i just want the golden's sequel to be top-2, cuz that would be so symbolic with acheron being top-1. but i hate the way it's done - at the time the golden was not the best, but was really good at both gameplay and deco, and the main thing that matters - it has a theme. the story of the forgotten temple-city of eldorado, and avernus not only doesn't continues the story, i'd be okay with that, but it doesn't have theme at all. some hell, lava here and there.. next, the deco - it's absolutely so much worse than apocalyptic trilogy, which already doesn't have good decorations at all, hell no. that absolutely not how it should have been. and the last thing, gameplay - if something gotta be hard, it should be difficult from the start. the main thing that makes things worse when you buff a level - you may change the click paterns, and just like the first click it overwrites the whole level, it makes it less enjoyable. hard isn't equals bad, but harder the level is more chances you'll make it bad. all in all, avernus is just bad at least. everything sucks, just everything.
i think the main problem with avernus being a “sequel” to the golden is that the golden was the sequel to el dorado, so essentially avernus doing this makes it a trilogy when el dorado didnt even need a sequel, let alone a trilogy of levels that do not match it aside from the golden being green and somewhat timing based.
Oh hell nah now PockeWindfish made another level called "Kupfermann" which is basically if you take Nhelv, NEUTRA, KOCMOC, Cold Sweat, Lotus Flower, and of Ambrosia, mix them, and make it 10x worse
Btw another reason for the low amount of leaderboard records is that people with a record on the demonlist have to submit a whitelist request in the leaderboard discord server in order to appear on the leaderboard on demons in the top 150. This choice was made to get rid of hackers on the leaderboard for the hardest demons
One of my biggest problems with the deco of Avernus despite it being a small thing, is the title card. It appears nicely, but it stays a bit too long and covers the gameplay. My biggest problem though, is that it just kind of... disappears. Just pops out of existance, no effect or anything. Just "alright that's the title card done, now get rid of it and continue on." It's a small thing, but i think it speaks magnitudes for how much this level just... wasn't really cared for.
12:02 its still not supposed to be a sequel, its supposed to he an antagonist, the idea is to make a level with the same starting premise, bo just making a layout but then just shifting in a completely different direction. Also he did not change the story, it was always presented as an antagonist, people just said its supposed to be a sequel cuz they didnt get whats an antagonist supposed to be.
The gameplay looks fun ngl, if they removed the fixed hitboxes I'm sure way more people would like the gameplay, or at least tolerate it TL;DR => Gameplay's not actually bad, just made bad by fixed hitboxes
use to have a part and was great friend of kyhros and I can say this level fell soooo hard from grace, the level was amazing back then and the level also was never meant to be a sequel level. Kyhros did this with The Reaper and only got finished bc of me Bentai & doop
I think avernus’s deco looks really good, and I don’t see why the deco using simple blocks matters. As long as you use the blocks in a way that makes it look good then it shouldn’t matter. I also see that a LOT of work went into avernus because it’s deco is better than a majority of the levels on the list, so I feel like judging it for it’s deco isn’t fair at all.
Yeah, they used a little to get a lot. It's simple, yet effective. You're allowed to not like it, but you must agree, it's a smart use of the rock blocks
It really isn’t smart, it’s literally putting two blocks together that were explicitly designed to be put together. Its just the rocks and the outlines made for the rocks there’s nothing creative or interesting about that.
I agree this level had so much potential, but pockewindfiah just fricked it all up and still forced it to be top 1-2. That's just horrible to even think about. However i do still think its possible with enough dedication to nerf and enhance the deco to at least make it good enough for like a feature or something.
Pockewindfish didn’t force it to be a top 2. Zoink commented on this video saying that the creator didn’t force him to make it a top 2. He also said to blame himself for the bad gameplay. So Zoink was the one who decided to make it a top 2. He even said that the creator meant it to be a top 10 or harder than the golden.
I think the deco is pretty good honestly, not top-tier as it has its issues, like how some of the parts don't really fit with each other (the ending with the pillars looks rlly out of place), and how it's another overdone hell theme (at least it changes things up by introducing orange and grey to the color palette) but it'd be good enough for a feature, if everything else about the level was good. I heavily agree with your other points though
I still think the deco looks really good, and even if its very easy to replicate, for me at least it doest matter how hard it is to decorate, rather how it looks in the end. And I agree with wanting good gameplay for a level to get rated, but has never been a big factor, there are hundreds if not thousands of levels with awful gameplay that got rated because they look ok (and worse than avernus).
I think it’s pretty obvious when you see the drop that it was made originally to be similar to The Golden. Now what I don’t get is the motivation to super buff just for fame and not to actually have others play it. Good video
If avernus is so controversial because of zoink's fixed hitboxes, how controversial does tidal wave will be? It doesn't has fixed hitboxes, but it throws exactly 200 frame perfects at the wall, to see which one sticks.
I remember going through pocke’s account and I already thought it was weird enough that this random guy appeared out of nowhere hosting avernus. after seeing the comments of him shitting on criticism i knew the level was gonna flop, but i feel like woom and bo giving up on it just to be picked up by a manchild to lazily piece together started its downfall. Zoink verifying was just the cherry on top lol
Genuine question: if it’s so absurdly hard with all these fixed hit boxes, why is it not top 1 over Acheron? Is Acheron also just that absurdly difficult?
Not gonna lie I really like Avernus, the deco could’ve been more well merged and a few parts including the endscreen could’ve looked a bit better but overall I love the deco, I also think the fixed hitboxes are an interesting take on the level’s difficulty
One more reason this level is weird is that the song totally doesn't fit with the atmosphere. I've always thought that "Dark Dragon Fire" never sounded anything like it would make a hell themed level; in fact, if I were to listen to the song without knowing the level it went with, I would have guessed it would be a heavenly themed level. I mean, it litterally has choir and piano as its main instruments. On top of everything else, this level is just plain awful in my opinion.
Thank God someone is speaking out against this bullshit in the GD Community. In my opinion, as a former list grinder AND a former top 1 on pointercrate, Avernus is a really fun top 30 for sure, the base gameplay is awesome, the actual problem is that the level was given to zoink, which has been proven to be the worst desicion a level host can make. So the best solution for this situation will be to just make a nerfdate of the level, and you’ll see how people will be A LOT more happier playing this. Keep up the great work man
I don't understand why the decoration is a problem in GD levels. Should be a level rated if the level looks good ? Can't we make like simple decoration for a level without it being unrated ?
The fixed hitboxes are really annoying to play, sure. I did a whole practice run of Avernus and honestly it felt like any other top end extreme with how i died, except the ship parts and one ufo part. The fixed hitboxes in the first ship are very bad to say the least. The decoration for the good parts is really good, but the part you were talking about with the rock decoration and 1.0 textures I disagree with. It may be simple to make them, but it doesn't make it bad. Just because it is easy to make doesn't mean it looks bad even if it doesn't. The blocks themselves don't look bad but the lack of decoration in the rest of the part makes them stick out and thus look worse than they actually are as they don't fit the rest of the part. Its not to say the blocks could be better, but the rest of the part brings them down too, mainly because the whole part is so dark. I just think you making it out to be worse than it really is. There is also that one other part near the end of the level that is really bright compared to the surrounding parts. That part is another example of sticking out makes it look bad, if the rest of the level was as bright as it, it would look better. It should be made darker to fit with the rest of the level. the endscreen is pretty good imo, if you were to have it in a level like a year or so ago I would say that it looks amazing, but the quality of endscreens has increased alot recently. And the little nit pick about that one thing at the end of the level is unnecessary tbh, I don't see people saying that about some of the other things that are in levels for no reason. I think the level should get verified despite what the host does and their actions with anything. If Rob really doesn't like having their name on a popular level, they could just remove their name from the game, and make the level say "By Zoink" or one of the creators, or even have in green "By -" like it does for levels by deleted accounts. I do think buffing a level to purposely be top 1 or even top 10 is generally a dumb idea unless you completely change the gameplay to accommodate for said difficulty increase. Fixed hitboxes are kind of dead and annoying, but moving the spikes to be closer and aligned with the fixed hitboxes is less dumb, but still dumb. I can understand that people are annoyed that it is a bad sequel to the golden, it has a set theme kind of similar to how the golden has a set theme, yeah the themes are different but it could still be a sequel from here. However where it becomes a terrible sequel is that the theming itself in Avernus is the most stale hell theme possible, and is also a completely stupid theme to pick as the third instalment to the trilogy. As going off the fact that the golden is a sequel to el dorado and that the theming for el dorado and the golden were fairly similar, its okay to switch things up a little and change the theme for the third one, but not to hell theme. The golden and el dorado as far as I'm aware is like Aztec stuff and like ruins of Aztecs and caves and stuff like that, so it would be reasonable to make the level a theme around caves or something, like how amethyst is. Overall I disagree and think the level should have been rated, but for a very specific reason. That reason being that, yeah the gameplay sucks because of fixed hitboxes, but the problem with not giving a rate because of said fixed hitboxes would open up the dialogue for every level with any sort of fixed hitbox being unrated, like tartarus for example, that has a fixed hitbox straight fly in the level, or really any top level extreme demon. I think Avernus is a stepping stone into the future of top extremes where fixed hitboxes are used more. You could also then go onto say that the fixed hitboxed levels are not being rated because of invisible difficulty increase. You would then see levels either incorporate them into designs or stop using them. But then any level at all with some sort of invisible gameplay would also have to get unrated because of the same reasoning. It is a slippery slope that I think would have to be taken head on or completely avoided. Personally taking it head on and making invisible gameplay unrateable at first sounds great until you realise that it makes some memory levels unrateable because of purely memory sections like that one part in betrayal of fate with the memory box maze, the ending is completely invisible. Making fixed hitboxes themselves completely unrateable is ideal because they don't add fun difficulty and personally I am hoping for 3+ minute levels to be the norm for the top of the demonlist. Tidal wave, ascension to heaven, return 0, etc. These levels are the type of levels I would prefer to be at the top. Memory levels too are good top levels, although at a certain point are impossible to make so hard purely because of the raw gameplay being too hard and then on top of that having memory too (think invisible frame perfects with differing fake paths).
I really hate the fixed HB on it idk why Zoink thought it was funny but I Don't make the rules. Edit: What will happen if Buff this was really buffed with fixed hb?
11:37 Bro predicted it 💀
ong
lmao@@ssohGD
Damn
aged well
Hey at least tidal wave got rated
not even exploiters want to beat the level 💀💀
TRUE.
not even that random 9-year-old who either does a terrible speedhack + noclip run or literally just plays a CZcams showcase wants to play it
edit: slight grammar correction
no, the leaderboards for extreme demons are just managed really good and hacked records dont appear on there (as often) anymore.
LMAO
DANG, I didn't even think of it that way! :0
We played this level in practice mode for a video. We've done this with many top levels before but this is the ONLY one where we didn't finish. It's genuinely so painful. Many crazy hitboxes. Congrats to Zoink for putting up with this, but gosh darn.
Congratulations Zoink; you’ve ruined yet another level with your stupid buffs and ego. Don’t let Zoink verify anything ever again.
@@Disfuguredbatman If you were vigilant you would know what was going on just a block down the road smh I can't believe you didn't help.
Well, speaking of difficulty, I'm sure the last 2 categories of gddp that have possible levels, deserve a new difficulty. Recently, DeCody (his hardest is Bloodlust) tried Slaughterhouse wave and he failed the practice completely. This literally shows how huge is the difference between Bloodlust and top 10.
@@coolguy4709 don't care about those guys
Avernus is perfectly fine. I think people are extremely whiny cause fixed hot boxes are perfectly fine and this is just people looking for reasons to hate main list. This level is great. The deco is fine there may be one small section with bad deco but the gameplay is fine and people need to stop being so whiny. Also this dudes opinions aren’t to good on the level. He called one of the best parts with “1.0”? Gross which is just confusing avernus is fine as is.
I watched the entire video, and I'm impressed with the way you explained the controversy about Avernus which made me understand more about it. This is an underrated channel and I'll definitely be following your growth. Keep up the fantastic work!
My honest reaction 📟
Robtop guy
SiKky Let's go!!!!!!
hi SiKky
sikky
“If you don’t decorate it people will hate it, If you decorate it people will hate it even more”
~ ColonGD
only if the decoration is mid
@@glob6821you are as mid if you think this is mid deco
@@ironic8340 this is mid
@@ironic8340it is very mid
@@Raidergmd that's way more unique than most of current featured levels. This looks at least more realistic
The art of the blade was made in only a week for a competition that suggested the levels made for it should be hard. The decoration is pretty good, the theme is amazing and I personally like the gimmicks. I do not think that The Art Of The Blade is worse than Avernus
Art of the blade is good, I honestly don't know why people hate it
I think the way the memory gimmick is woven in can be really frustrating, with it involving literal pixels and requiring a lot of time to work out. Of course, in the context of the competition this makes it really good, but as a level outside of that it can be infuriating.
TAotB is awesome lol
It's hated because you have to look at random things in the level to beat it, and they're randomized so you can't memorize them, and depending on those random factors the first memory part changes.
@@epictoast yeah that's awesome lol
This is a certified silent abyss of organ redux moment
haha herravki
NothingIsScary on his way to talk about the most controversial things in the gd community
The reason i like him is because he has good opinions.
@@amonke8446me too
@@amonke8446sadly the last time he did he got death threats and stuff
@@AustynL yea sad
@@amonke8446 there is still a gd account impersonating him and going around spamming people telling them their levels aren't good
hello i wanna say that the creator did NOT force me to make it top 2. he wanted it just top 10 or atleast harder then the golden. if you wanna blame all the bad gameplay blame me bruh 💀💀💀. also all the buffing i did wasn’t just fixed hitboxes lul obv. there are like ~15 spikes which have fixed hitboxes (i think idk i’m tryna remember which have them) everything else makes sense also you should have probably talked about the bad optimization at some of the parts
thanks for clarifying. honestly it takes guts to basically tell people to blame yourself for something like this. mad respect to you for at least taking the criticism and know i ofc respect you for it. as much as i dont like the level this situation shouldn't only be blamed on you.
its zoink from anus
This video honestly gave me a new respect for Zoink, on the grounds that he stuck with this mess, and completed it.
Zoink i think buffed it idk tho
@@NothingIsScaryI mean the post from Icedcave said that he was told to right?
@@NothingIsScarypretty sure he was told he had to buff it
it's literally his fault lol his macrobuffs made the level unfun
@@valeriewithsalt stop whining the lvl was advertised as top 1
Man this level would have been hella popular if they just didn't make it top 5, I'm glad people are over this "make the level as hard as possible trend," cuz they just kinda suck. I wouldn't call this level easy to make tho, and I do think the decoration looks good, if not decent for the most part
But Avernus was literally made to be a top 5
Have you seen the amount of new list demonics these days its like you blink and bloodlst falls another 10 spots
@@dubdundubThey could have made it more fun and better deco still and have top 5 if they just kept it pretty hard.
Idk if people realize but every single top 10 was made to be top 10, or else it simply wouldn't be a top 10, the truth is the harder the level and the lower it's position on the demonlist, the more attention, even levels that the entire community consider good like limbo, yes they're good, but it was made to be a top 10? So does that make it bad? No, not at all
@@cclixgd_gd4905 if the level wouldnt be memorable as an extended list, its probably bad. limbo would most definitely be memorable, and also this is beside the point but i believe it was just made to be the hardest memory level in the game.
I don’t think it matters if it’s easy to make something look good, it should only matter if it actually looks good
this is not arguing weather or not the deco alone is rate worthy. its arguing if it can make a bad level (in regards to gameplay) justified.
Gameplay is 10x more important than deco
@@antiprime4665 I completly agree, but the mod team and robtop dont seem to. if you want to get something rated you have to make it look good, even if the gameplay is dogshit
@@NothingIsScary gameplay has never been factored into account of rating a level before and even deco is on a questionable standpoint when you look at the utter chaos of rating standards between some levels
@@baconboy69 It's actually sad that crappy gameplay always gets rated just because of their deco and levels should be judged by gameplay too. This is why I just create my own levels because I can make my own gameplay that is fun to me, with no judgement.
(I wrote a comment on a GD level saying that Rob only relies on deco for levels and it was my most liked.)
It's all a real shame since thanks to Avernus I got to know Dark Dragon Fire (wasn't around when Infernal Abyss was popular), and it is already my favorite F-777 song; so the idea of having a top 2 (or even proably top 1) with such an amazing, atmospheric song was very appealing to me.
I hope some day Dark Dragon Fire is made justice, not necessarily with a top 5 (especially with the contenders right now), but the way LIMBO makes justice to Isolation, or Kyouki to Crazy.
infernal abyss used to do that but now looking back it kinda sucks... really it’s quite sad that avernus had so much potential but lost it for multiple reasons
sonic blaster is better
@@stoopid69421 infernal abyss is just old now, it was probably good for it’s time
Most of the problems other than deco is mostly Zoink's fault, he buffed it to try and make it barely humanly possible, and making it extremely unfun to play in the process, so it makes sense why the level is controversial and why no one wants to play it.
Yeah he also most likely hacked it, we just can't prove it at the moment.
@@megadubstepxd9462 True, I have seen a lot of accusations towards Zoink and in my opinion, it is most likely an innocent until proven guilty situation because it's hard to actually prove he hacked.
@@ncprism_ yeah especially considering it took so long for spaceuk to be caught while using an outdated method, it's impossible to catch someone using the newest method.
@@megadubstepxd9462 zoinks completion is more impressive when you realize that he has ldm on + no pulse + no raw footage
@@crapperxd wait really? XD
He's gonna be the new Stormfly at this point 💀💀💀💀💀
This is why i dont like to end up decorating like this. I would just make it less decorated, to prevent all the drama, make it less laggy and so on.
Edit: thanks for 100 likes! I should really do low object levels!
Make bad deco but make it good by making it unique and different. It'll work.
@@venosa7649pocke in a nutshell
Also by the way, Avernus’ optimization is absolutely horrible. To me, it’s probably the WORST optimization of all fucking time, I get about 100 FPS at times 💀💀💀
@@browniex5120 try the level called "happy world" its an unrated harder level, THAT is the worst optimization of all fucking time.
@@browniex5120 more fps then over half of the gd community.
this is more of an abyss of darkness sequel than a the golden sequel
Before this video I really didn’t know why people really hated the level as I thought that it was a perfectly normal level until you made this masterpiece.Easy to understand and gets to the point well.Your going to be my go-to creator to understand a controversy in the GD community.
People struggling with less than 20% while Zoink beat the whole level with the fixed hit boxes 💀
This is what zoink does to a level
Don't Zoink a level! Zoinking levels is bad!
I actually think that the deco is good enough for a star rate. I mean if you go and play a lot of recently rated levels many of them won't be particularly amazing deco wise and maybe not too difficult to create either. (Speaking of that I think the difficulty of creating something shouldn't matter at all, just how the final product looks). I think the issue is rate standards are too high for demons and extreme demons for some reason.
What? Rate standards are way higher for demons than for non-demons, and especially extremes
@@Edgeperor that's what I said?
@@Edgeperor???
Completely disagree with gameplay not being needed as a factor for rateworthiness; you can’t have rated levels with awful gameplay filling up the servers
@@TheInsane104 I never said anything about the gameplay? I've never even played the level, so I can't judge that
Anyone remember that creator contest for this that happened a while before Avernus was released? I remember the winning part, which isn't in here. Am I missing something from the whole CC thing or did everyone just forget about it?
they replaced that with another one
@@rolandfilip2780 Interesting, I didn't know about that. I wonder why.
@@rolandfilip2780kinda feels like a scam then
I think Avernus is definitely feature worthy based on DECORATION ALONE.
I personally think being able to make rate worthy decoration should be something that everyone can do (by that I mean you really only need to know how certain blocks look together and color theory). That was and still kinda is the case now, and I think Avernus accomplishes my personal definition of having rate worthy decoration.
Why I said that it was feature worthy is because it not only accomplished rate worthy deco status, but it adds upon that by creating its own decoration with its own ideas (the dragon art, the end screen art and the cube section before that, custom lava, utilizes movement effectively, etc.)
They don't even want to pass this level with no clip 💀
It would be funny if the first victor of Avernus would say this in the comments:
*"Zoink, why did you verify this?"*
Around 6:30 you talked about how deco is really easy. It isn't just about being able to tell what blocks are used. If you tried to make something like Avernus, you couldn't. It isn't about placing textures. It's about the part as a WHOLE looking cohesive and nicely structured and colored, and to do that you need to adjust every bit of all the objects you're using to make them look good. Just because you can place a few blocks, doesn't mean you can make the entirety of a part. Also, the wave at 7:10 looks horrible imo xD
Fr i liked the grey part that he complained better cuz it looks like yeah idk how to describe it but it gives sum kinda vibe
being a non-creator and commenting on decoration as “easy to make” is such a stupid take lmfao
Ya it looks decent tbh. Random crappy modern levels get rated all the time, this is definitely rate worthy
@@dominicirla7011 yeah, most modern levels are just "modernized glow 1.9" where as this level at least looks more unique.
Yeah it’s annoying this guy doesn’t know shit LOL
The only thing faithful to the Golden that Avernus has is that it was also hyped as the new top 1 and didn't get top 1, jokes aside from what I heard the main reason why it got rated is because Rob rates levels that have a chance of being top 1 or have some sort of historical value to the community, this is why levels like Arcturus and Silent Clubstep are even rated in the first place, I do think Avernus can be harder than Acheron, but the only reason why it wasn't placed at the top 1 spot was for the sake of the sanity of the top players, there is much more pressure and expectations in a top player beating a top 1 rather than a top 2, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the top players would quit if Avernus did indeed get top 1, but that's just my speculation
i have to agree with your statement that if it were extended list that it could actually be really fun for a lot of people, since it being extended list would not only make it more accessible but also be more forgiving and not make you rip your eyeballs out, as well as being a different wave themed level than nine circles levels
anyway very good video
Good video. I was a little confused about this so this was a really informative watch. Also, respect for the OMORI music
Yo, I swore that was Paper Mario music playing in the background lol
@@64bitmodels66 the specific song he was using is the one song in the OST that sounds exactly like a Mario song so I don’t blame you for that lol
I'm hearing a lot of "the level is hard so it shouldn't be rated."
Bros hardest is death moon
@@Penguin-gq7mp fr
worm feels like a really pathetic insult from someone who gets bullied in elementary
How to make good level:
Don't make upcoming top 1
Fricking 10 seconds in and you already remind me of all my omori related trauma >:(
honestly, I agree with most of what you said, I liked that you didn't like the deco, I can agree with that, Bli, CuLuC, and potentially CherryTeam could blow them out of the water, and i do agree with what you said about it having a nerfdate, but if this level wants to retain a good and appealing top 1, naturally make it better, buy making tighter corridors and other buffs that could be done, possibly lengthening the level may be another way, but Pocke just "Tiny Timmied" the level to pieces by spamming fixed hitboxes, sure, fixed hitboxes are a gimmick in top 1s, Tartarus has itself a fixed hitbox straightfly section, but excessively spamming fixed hitboxes isn't fun. I do agree with you that the deco is poorly done to a point where its just a generic 2.1 hell-themed level, but they could do an Endlevel and have CuLuC or Bli do a houseflipper like thing and turn a very bad level that's very controversial into a masterpiece...maybe?
Zoink did the buffs, not Pocke
Culuc and bli are in cherry lol
@@EperkeGMD CuLuC or Bli doing a solo, outside of CherryTeam
@@EperkeGMD like Areial Gleam
I really like your videos, clarifying things and having really good arguments, good job
Also avernus is HORRIBLY UNOPTIMIZED and is basically impossible to optimize as each part is on a separate layer which basically means that every object is on the same layer
BECAUSE THE HITBOXES EXPAND OUT OF THE SPIKE, LIKE WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
Zoink did the fixed hitboxes on the level, making it way worse than it originally was. Now i'm looking for evidence if zoink cheated in any demonlist completions or not.
this level looks so damn cool i would play it anyways if i was good enough
fixed hitboxes on other games:yes,finally.the game is playable
fixed hitboxes on geometry dash:OH GOD NO OH SHIT
I think it’s a bit stupid that random levels are being labeled as sequels to popular levels for it to be popular while it isn’t even a faithful sequel
I didn’t realize the hardest levels in the game had a fun requirement 😂
they kinda do. it doesn't matter if a level is hard if it isn't fun and nobody wants to play it.
@@NothingIsScary isn’t that like every krmal level 😂 (edit it’s a joke btw I love krmal)
Exactly, I don't understand why so many people are complaining when they can't even get past the first few percentage
And in surprised how tidal wave isn't hated as much it's way worse
I want to make a avernus joke level called "a furnace"
I dont care how hard it is to recreate an effect, if it looks cool then it does, even if it is simple or easy to make
I think it’s unfair that one of the reasons why Avernus is hated is because of it’s creator I think we should separate the ‘art from the artist’ and dislike the level because of it garbage gameplay
if he would just remove the fixed hitboxes and move spikes so the level keeps its difficulty it would make things so much better
You haven’t said any bad word on the Verifier - Zoink. Only he came up with an idea of buffing avernus and ruining it’s gameplay
I feel like avernus will get so much backlash that robtop will unrate avernus, especially if it’s top 1.
i just want the golden's sequel to be top-2, cuz that would be so symbolic with acheron being top-1.
but i hate the way it's done - at the time the golden was not the best, but was really good at both gameplay and deco, and the main thing that matters - it has a theme. the story of the forgotten temple-city of eldorado, and avernus not only doesn't continues the story, i'd be okay with that, but it doesn't have theme at all. some hell, lava here and there..
next, the deco - it's absolutely so much worse than apocalyptic trilogy, which already doesn't have good decorations at all, hell no. that absolutely not how it should have been.
and the last thing, gameplay - if something gotta be hard, it should be difficult from the start. the main thing that makes things worse when you buff a level - you may change the click paterns, and just like the first click it overwrites the whole level, it makes it less enjoyable. hard isn't equals bad, but harder the level is more chances you'll make it bad.
all in all, avernus is just bad at least. everything sucks, just everything.
i think the main problem with avernus being a “sequel” to the golden is that the golden was the sequel to el dorado, so essentially avernus doing this makes it a trilogy when el dorado didnt even need a sequel, let alone a trilogy of levels that do not match it aside from the golden being green and somewhat timing based.
Oh hell nah now PockeWindfish made another level called "Kupfermann" which is basically if you take Nhelv, NEUTRA, KOCMOC, Cold Sweat, Lotus Flower, and of Ambrosia, mix them, and make it 10x worse
I only realized that avernus was rated after i came back to the community. Didnt know avernus made no noise in the community
30 frame perfects in one wave section in a Top 2 is INSANE
As someone that has no deco skill I can say that I think Avernus's deco is pretty cool.
Btw another reason for the low amount of leaderboard records is that people with a record on the demonlist have to submit a whitelist request in the leaderboard discord server in order to appear on the leaderboard on demons in the top 150. This choice was made to get rid of hackers on the leaderboard for the hardest demons
Love these types of videos, they are sort of bringing me back to a Geometry Dash phase, please upload more!
One of my biggest problems with the deco of Avernus despite it being a small thing, is the title card. It appears nicely, but it stays a bit too long and covers the gameplay. My biggest problem though, is that it just kind of... disappears. Just pops out of existance, no effect or anything. Just "alright that's the title card done, now get rid of it and continue on." It's a small thing, but i think it speaks magnitudes for how much this level just... wasn't really cared for.
Not even space uk would of wanted to hack this level
i honestly think this is one of my favorite levels ngl
I really want someone to get list% and then get it moved to top 1 just to piss everyone off
12:02 its still not supposed to be a sequel, its supposed to he an antagonist, the idea is to make a level with the same starting premise, bo just making a layout but then just shifting in a completely different direction. Also he did not change the story, it was always presented as an antagonist, people just said its supposed to be a sequel cuz they didnt get whats an antagonist supposed to be.
The gameplay looks fun ngl, if they removed the fixed hitboxes I'm sure way more people would like the gameplay, or at least tolerate it
TL;DR => Gameplay's not actually bad, just made bad by fixed hitboxes
use to have a part and was great friend of kyhros and I can say this level fell soooo hard from grace, the level was amazing back then and the level also was never meant to be a sequel level. Kyhros did this with The Reaper and only got finished bc of me Bentai & doop
I feel so bad for The Golden, literally, this is its sequel
Edit: its an Antagonist
7:44 I kept dying when u said this 😭
the fact that a single wave section (37-48) has 30 frame perfects 💀💀💀
I remember trying to bot this level and it was so hard that botting limbo without any knowledge of the level would be way easier than botting avernus.
I think avernus’s deco looks really good, and I don’t see why the deco using simple blocks matters. As long as you use the blocks in a way that makes it look good then it shouldn’t matter. I also see that a LOT of work went into avernus because it’s deco is better than a majority of the levels on the list, so I feel like judging it for it’s deco isn’t fair at all.
Yeah, they used a little to get a lot. It's simple, yet effective. You're allowed to not like it, but you must agree, it's a smart use of the rock blocks
It really isn’t smart, it’s literally putting two blocks together that were explicitly designed to be put together. Its just the rocks and the outlines made for the rocks there’s nothing creative or interesting about that.
@@aph391 again, since you have failed to understand what I am saying, it doesn’t matter if it is simple as long as it looks good which it does.
Hey just to let you know ppl like trick who beat kosmos after the update still say there are plenty of things wrong with it
Say whatever else you want about the level, the decoration is fine. Just because it's not difficult to make doesn't mean it looks bad.
I agree this level had so much potential, but pockewindfiah just fricked it all up and still forced it to be top 1-2. That's just horrible to even think about. However i do still think its possible with enough dedication to nerf and enhance the deco to at least make it good enough for like a feature or something.
Pockewindfish didn’t force it to be a top 2. Zoink commented on this video saying that the creator didn’t force him to make it a top 2. He also said to blame himself for the bad gameplay. So Zoink was the one who decided to make it a top 2. He even said that the creator meant it to be a top 10 or harder than the golden.
I personaly belive that this should be a top 1
And i didnt expect that the creator of this level was this bad
I think the deco is pretty good honestly, not top-tier as it has its issues, like how some of the parts don't really fit with each other (the ending with the pillars looks rlly out of place), and how it's another overdone hell theme (at least it changes things up by introducing orange and grey to the color palette) but it'd be good enough for a feature, if everything else about the level was good. I heavily agree with your other points though
Why do demons need to be fun? Arent they just all about being harder than the last one ?
I still think the deco looks really good, and even if its very easy to replicate, for me at least it doest matter how hard it is to decorate, rather how it looks in the end. And I agree with wanting good gameplay for a level to get rated, but has never been a big factor, there are hundreds if not thousands of levels with awful gameplay that got rated because they look ok (and worse than avernus).
I think it’s pretty obvious when you see the drop that it was made originally to be similar to The Golden. Now what I don’t get is the motivation to super buff just for fame and not to actually have others play it. Good video
i think avernus would be amazing if its hitboxes were actually normal
its so sad that it has fixed hitboxes
this guy has the biggest balls with these takes and i agree with almost every single one
imagine buffing conical depression to make it top 1, that’s what this feels like just not as bad
If avernus is so controversial because of zoink's fixed hitboxes, how controversial does tidal wave will be? It doesn't has fixed hitboxes, but it throws exactly 200 frame perfects at the wall, to see which one sticks.
I remember going through pocke’s account and I already thought it was weird enough that this random guy appeared out of nowhere hosting avernus. after seeing the comments of him shitting on criticism i knew the level was gonna flop, but i feel like woom and bo giving up on it just to be picked up by a manchild to lazily piece together started its downfall. Zoink verifying was just the cherry on top lol
Is it like a skill issue because zoink is just so much better than everyone?
Genuine question: if it’s so absurdly hard with all these fixed hit boxes, why is it not top 1 over Acheron? Is Acheron also just that absurdly difficult?
Poke wind fish out here acting like an anime protagonist over pixels on a screen.
Not gonna lie I really like Avernus, the deco could’ve been more well merged and a few parts including the endscreen could’ve looked a bit better but overall I love the deco, I also think the fixed hitboxes are an interesting take on the level’s difficulty
avernus is now top 1
Two words: fixed hitboxes
6:20 that’s a good thing… if you can build a cool design with a low object count and using default objects, that is not a bad thing
One more reason this level is weird is that the song totally doesn't fit with the atmosphere. I've always thought that "Dark Dragon Fire" never sounded anything like it would make a hell themed level; in fact, if I were to listen to the song without knowing the level it went with, I would have guessed it would be a heavenly themed level. I mean, it litterally has choir and piano as its main instruments. On top of everything else, this level is just plain awful in my opinion.
im so glad this didnt get placed top 1 immediatly. imagine if it was listed as the hardest level in the GD10 video.
petition to make avernuss top 1
👇
Thank God someone is speaking out against this bullshit in the GD Community. In my opinion, as a former list grinder AND a former top 1 on pointercrate, Avernus is a really fun top 30 for sure, the base gameplay is awesome, the actual problem is that the level was given to zoink, which has been proven to be the worst desicion a level host can make. So the best solution for this situation will be to just make a nerfdate of the level, and you’ll see how people will be A LOT more happier playing this. Keep up the great work man
what was the problem with giving it to zoink?
@@teslacactus1135he ultrabuffed it it have all the frame perfects. He says he was forced to, but he’s done that for other levels so who knows.
It doesn't look fun
I don't understand why the decoration is a problem in GD levels. Should be a level rated if the level looks good ? Can't we make like simple decoration for a level without it being unrated ?
fixed hitbox spikes give me inverted slope energy
I feel really bad for avernus’ situation
The fixed hitboxes are really annoying to play, sure. I did a whole practice run of Avernus and honestly it felt like any other top end extreme with how i died, except the ship parts and one ufo part. The fixed hitboxes in the first ship are very bad to say the least.
The decoration for the good parts is really good, but the part you were talking about with the rock decoration and 1.0 textures I disagree with. It may be simple to make them, but it doesn't make it bad. Just because it is easy to make doesn't mean it looks bad even if it doesn't. The blocks themselves don't look bad but the lack of decoration in the rest of the part makes them stick out and thus look worse than they actually are as they don't fit the rest of the part. Its not to say the blocks could be better, but the rest of the part brings them down too, mainly because the whole part is so dark. I just think you making it out to be worse than it really is.
There is also that one other part near the end of the level that is really bright compared to the surrounding parts. That part is another example of sticking out makes it look bad, if the rest of the level was as bright as it, it would look better. It should be made darker to fit with the rest of the level.
the endscreen is pretty good imo, if you were to have it in a level like a year or so ago I would say that it looks amazing, but the quality of endscreens has increased alot recently. And the little nit pick about that one thing at the end of the level is unnecessary tbh, I don't see people saying that about some of the other things that are in levels for no reason.
I think the level should get verified despite what the host does and their actions with anything. If Rob really doesn't like having their name on a popular level, they could just remove their name from the game, and make the level say "By Zoink" or one of the creators, or even have in green "By -" like it does for levels by deleted accounts.
I do think buffing a level to purposely be top 1 or even top 10 is generally a dumb idea unless you completely change the gameplay to accommodate for said difficulty increase. Fixed hitboxes are kind of dead and annoying, but moving the spikes to be closer and aligned with the fixed hitboxes is less dumb, but still dumb.
I can understand that people are annoyed that it is a bad sequel to the golden, it has a set theme kind of similar to how the golden has a set theme, yeah the themes are different but it could still be a sequel from here. However where it becomes a terrible sequel is that the theming itself in Avernus is the most stale hell theme possible, and is also a completely stupid theme to pick as the third instalment to the trilogy. As going off the fact that the golden is a sequel to el dorado and that the theming for el dorado and the golden were fairly similar, its okay to switch things up a little and change the theme for the third one, but not to hell theme. The golden and el dorado as far as I'm aware is like Aztec stuff and like ruins of Aztecs and caves and stuff like that, so it would be reasonable to make the level a theme around caves or something, like how amethyst is.
Overall I disagree and think the level should have been rated, but for a very specific reason. That reason being that, yeah the gameplay sucks because of fixed hitboxes, but the problem with not giving a rate because of said fixed hitboxes would open up the dialogue for every level with any sort of fixed hitbox being unrated, like tartarus for example, that has a fixed hitbox straight fly in the level, or really any top level extreme demon. I think Avernus is a stepping stone into the future of top extremes where fixed hitboxes are used more. You could also then go onto say that the fixed hitboxed levels are not being rated because of invisible difficulty increase. You would then see levels either incorporate them into designs or stop using them. But then any level at all with some sort of invisible gameplay would also have to get unrated because of the same reasoning. It is a slippery slope that I think would have to be taken head on or completely avoided.
Personally taking it head on and making invisible gameplay unrateable at first sounds great until you realise that it makes some memory levels unrateable because of purely memory sections like that one part in betrayal of fate with the memory box maze, the ending is completely invisible.
Making fixed hitboxes themselves completely unrateable is ideal because they don't add fun difficulty and personally I am hoping for 3+ minute levels to be the norm for the top of the demonlist. Tidal wave, ascension to heaven, return 0, etc. These levels are the type of levels I would prefer to be at the top. Memory levels too are good top levels, although at a certain point are impossible to make so hard purely because of the raw gameplay being too hard and then on top of that having memory too (think invisible frame perfects with differing fake paths).
i think this should be rated and placed based on zoink’s achievement
I really hate the fixed HB on it idk why Zoink thought it was funny but I Don't make the rules.
Edit: What will happen if Buff this was really buffed with fixed hb?